SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

A long chain of confusions. I took your first sentence as a suggestion. While you put it as an introductory statement. I guess with that cleared we can continue the fruitful discussion.

Problem statement

University gets +2 RESEARCH at start. Knowledge gives +5 RESEARCH. This is perceived as nullification of University innate bonus.

How it is done in vanilla

Factions have their personalities which includes some relatively small effects (-2 to +2 range). These effects are purposefully small so they can be overridden by SE choices. In other words, faction are not doomed and locked in their initial feature effects. That makes complete sense and is consistently applied across factions in vanilla and, I think, we should stick to it. The range of inherent effect variations should be noticeably smaller than the spectrum of all SE achievable values.

Do we really have a problem?

I don't think so. Even though faction can get much bigger bonus from SE their inherent bonuses do not go anywhere. They still work (positive or negative) and keep their value more or less throughout the game. Hive is 20% more productive than Spartans and this relation doesn't change if they both also pick Planned.

The fact that some factions have crappy inherent bonuses is a different story and subject for faction adjustment.

So to answer your initial issue: I don't think that Knowledge obsoletes University. Knowledge is not a problem here. RESEARCH may be and University  may be.

Do we really need Knowledge to give that much RESEARCH?

Don't know. This is an experimental feature. Need to play out and see if it works out. I think with more benefit to each RESEARCH rating this can be safely reduced.

[bvanevery]

The effect of the current settings is the University is grossly eclipsed by midgame.  It simply isn't relevant to be the University from midgame onwards.  To compare to your earlier claims about INDUSTRY bonuses - which BTW are far more impactful than RESEARCH bonuses - the margins can become +70% RESEARCH for the University, +50% for anyone else but the Believers and Free Drones.  1.7 / 1.5 = 1.13333 = 13% margin of advantage.  This is nothing.  Irrelevant.  Any other faction can become almost as good as the University.  And they all have various advantages the University doesn't have.  If you wanted to win by accelerated research, you'd be better off picking almost any faction but the University.

Also in the early game, the University's +20% RESEARCH advantage clearly doesn't matter in the real world, when the human plays the University, on Transcend.  The AI is somehow getting massively more advantage than that, under the hood.  One might at least expect the University to gain parity with inflated AI research, but that is empirically not the case.  The AI factions routinely out-research the supposedly best research faction of the game, in the early game.

Part of this is probably because Network Nodes offer very little benefit until a faction has more bases and the bases are larger.  It's not an awesome ability.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Why do yo divide RESEARCH bonuses? What does this ratio tells us? It doesn't matter whether faction discovered twice as more techs than other. The absolute difference matter: what one faction has the other don't. Equal bonuses added to both won't change it if you disable stealing and trading.

Let's say for simplicity sake that tech cost is always proportional to labs at any stage of the game. It is roughly true since tech cost was specifically adjusted like that. Let also say both factions labs equal to current tech cost so they routinely discover one tech a turn. every five turns University also gets one extra tech due to their inherent bonus. That is a flat addition due to 20% more labs. If both factions gets +50% to labs they will both discover one more tech every two turns. That doesn't change technology race state for them. On top of that University will continue receiving another extra tech every five turns that counts to technology advantage as initially. Nothing changed in regards to advantage.

I don't see how Knowledge makes University worse. They both have their own issues probably. That I don't rule out.


Take the above as MHO and some exercise in math. It has no meaning when we are dealing with player perception of fun. 😁

What do you propose to change?

[bvanevery]

Why do yo divide RESEARCH bonuses? What does this ratio tells us?

It tells us that the University's rate of research is only 13% better than most other factions choosing Knowledge.  This is all the advantage the U. has.  Meanwhile those other factions have advantages like higher ECONOMY, higher INDUSTRY, higher MORALE, etc.  They're worth more than what the U. has got over them.

It doesn't matter whether faction discovered twice as more techs than other.

It would if they actually did that!  13% better is obviously not 100% better.

Let also say both factions labs equal to current tech cost so they routinely discover one tech a turn.

Surely an artifact of Knowledge being cranked up way too high.

What do you propose to change?

To start with, lower Knowledge.  It's too high.  Try +3 RESEARCH.

Knowledge then has too many penalties.  Get rid of the GROWTH penalty.  It doesn't make any sense anyways.

The GROWTH bonus for Power doesn't make any sense either.  It's a giveaway.  Get rid of it.

Then make University have +3 RESEARCH.  Now there's still a reason to be the University.

+60% vs. +30% = 1.6 / 1.3 = 23% relative advantage.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

To start with, lower Knowledge.  It's too high.  Try +3 RESEARCH.

Knowledge then has too many penalties.  Get rid of the GROWTH penalty.  It doesn't make any sense anyways.

Then make University have +3 RESEARCH.  Now there's still a reason to be the University.

+60% vs. +30% = 1.6 / 1.3 = 23% relative advantage.

Let's try Knowledge change.

Agree about U. too.

The GROWTH bonus for Power doesn't make any sense either.  It's a giveaway.  Get rid of it.

How did you manage to slip Power into this discussion? Trickster!

It may become too not powerful without it. Especially later in the game when it is discovered when SUPPORT value diminishes. Maybe replace GROWTH with some smaller bonus? If not then maybe increase existing bonuses and/or decrease penalties at least?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/blob/master/wtp_changelog.md#version-194

[bvanevery]

I'll try 195.  I connect Power and Knowledge through GROWTH.  There's clearly an up / down / same dynamic through your Values choices.  I don't have a lot of experience with Power, I just think it looks awfully beneficial.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Definitely. Try it out and let us know.

RESEARCH giving 20% per level may affect factions and SEs. However, it was not that strong effect before and this change, probably, won't affect game balance too drastically. So I didn't do any adjustments right away except returning Believers to their -2 RESEARCH. We shall try it out and see whether we need any adjustments.


https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/blob/master/wtp_changelog.md#version-196

This is just out. You may give it a try. Should be compatible with saved game.

[bvanevery]

New game with version 196.
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15
15,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

Huge map, 30%..50% land, average settings.  I choose the University.  Random opponents.

Details recycling empire

recycling empire

My land was lush.  Surprisingly, I have not yet seen a single fungal tower.  The Changelog didn't say they were removed from the game....

MY 2149.  This is the year that contact with everyone else exploded.  Previously I was allied with the Gaians.  Under the new research regime, I maintained parity with them, but we were clearly equal partners and I didn't have any research advantage over them.  Then suddenly they had more techs than I did, and had the temerity to treat me as the po boy in the last round of trading.  They gifted me E2 Secrets of the Human Brain and then What A Pleasant Chatted me.  I proceeded to buy commlinks until I had everyone's.  3 factions are now at war with me.  Although I could call an election, I don't see much reason to bother, as my allies won't win it.

Details Gaian research prowess

Gaian research prowess

This is the empire that is known to be beating me on tech.  Maybe it's a temporary blip due to trade leakage, but they certainly kept parity with me, no problem.  They have 11 cities to my 6.  7 of theirs are size 1, while only 1 of mine is.  4 of my cities have completed Recycling Tanks, and 2 of theirs have.  Their only scientific facility is 1 Biology Lab.  In contrast I have Network Nodes everywhere and 1 Biology Lab.  I have 1 Command Center I've made very little use of.  It's in my capitol, which has been gifted with minerals and nutrients for colony spewing.

My cities have LABS outputs like 3, 5, and 9 in the one case.  Theirs are like 1, 2, 3, and 5.  It is tempting to conclude that the AI RESEARCH advantage on Transcend is cranked up pretty high somewhere under the hood.  We shall see as this game progresses.

The AIs are all remarkably obsessive about not trading C2 Nonlinear Mathematics due to the Universal Translator.  This is not a good Secret Project IMO.  It would be nice to have because it's relatively cheap by this mod's standards, but it's not absolutely cheap.  Spending the production at this early point in the game on merely getting 2 more techs, isn't a good decision.  You can do far better just trading for techs or buying them outright.  It's always my dead last project.  The AIs have traded all sorts of techs that have better Secret Projects attached to them, so it's pretty weird that they fixate on this one.  Maybe they should be stingier about other SP techs in general, but one way or another, the discrepancy in AI behavior is irrational.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

I may asked before but why do you think they hurt AI? They make them die more than twice as less for 50% price increase which is still almost nothing if you account both cost and support.

[bvanevery]

I may asked before but why do you think they hurt AI?

The AI obsesses and builds way too many of them, when it should be building other things of value for defending the empire.  They're not a 50% price increase, they're 100% increase, 20 minerals vs. 10 for a normal Scout.  They're a one trick pony, they're only useful for defending against mindworms.  Against conventional weapons, they're highly vulnerable.  You have not been seeing this because your defaults put base and territory defense crazy high.  That's how mere Scouts are able to defend against Chaos Guns.

As I have posted before, the AI obsessing about predefined units is a common problem in the stock binary.  When the AI does that, you need to remove that predefined unit.  It is extremely unlikely that any AI obsession over a predefined unit, will result in good play over the course of a complete game.  Even if it helps the AI in the early game, it will cripple it later on when the unit isn't relevant anymore.  The AI will still keep chugging it out, and meanwhile all those units represent tons of lost empire productivity.

Details unsustainable

unsustainable

MY 2162.   I'm being assaulted by many mindworms.  Most were stirred up by others.  The Isle was my doing, popping a pod when I finally got out to sea.  Mir Lab in the northeast was previously hit by 2 waves of mindworms, the last one 3 at a go.

Details recycling isn't green

recycling isn't green

My paltry empire is in danger of economic collapse, with -9 credits/year.  All I think I've done is work on the basic things necessary for an empire core.   My biggest expense is Recycling Tanks.  Unlike in the stock game where they're an asset, in this mod they're a trade of energy for minerals.  I'm not real thrilled about this "kind of factory" costing 2 maintenance.

I sell the Command Center I Completed in my capitol for 40 credits, as I'm never able to use it in practice anyways.  I've only just stopped making Colony Pods there.  Finally going to put a Rec Commons on it.  I'll have to Stockpile Energy as cities get done with their stuff.  In other games I've probably explored more, gaining more money, so not noticing budget problems.  Recycling Tanks has usually been my trigger to stop colonizing and starting going vertical.  Well the University can get there fairly fast, and verticality seems like what the University should be doing.  Network Nodes are not particularly beneficial when playing horizontally.

[bvanevery]

Details stockpile energy is a ripoff

stockpile energy is a ripoff

2 minerals for 1 energy is terrible.  Not a fan.

Details Gaian defensive blase

Gaian defensive blase

The Gaians are maintaining tech parity with mere spam.  They have a breakthrough every 11 turns, and it takes me 13.  They don't even bother to defend themselves.  Look at the empty bases!  Avoiding any mindworms like that is just cheating.  My bases have held because I've defended them and lost Formers as sacrifices.  I wonder if the AI knows there are no mindworms coming, like it checks and then cheats on defense.

[bvanevery]

Details joy in my disadvantage

joy in my disadvantage

So I need to go vertical for my free Network Nodes to be of benefit.  But if I do that, I'm heavily penalized.  I think the University's DRONE penalty should be removed.  I did it in my mod.  The stock game acts like a free Network Node is some huge advantage, but it isn't.  It's not worth the extra DRONES that you're going to have to build extra facilities for, to keep everyone happy.  Even in the stock game, the Virtual World doesn't solve this problem, it only mitigates it.  And the Virtual World is helluh expensive and late to obtain in this mod.

[bvanevery]

Details my empire is crap

my empire is crap

I've had it with this game.  I'm quitting.  There's no value in playing vertically, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a spam bot like the AI.  Maybe the stock game thought you were going to manipulate and tweak your citizens to be Librarians or something, but damned if I'll ever do that either.  Citizen tweaking is the worst, a leftover from Civ II.

The mindworm spam has continued.

Details their empire is spam

their empire is spam

The Gaians don't even try.  They just grow.  At least they are actually building Trance Plasma Garrisons now for defense, instead of that Trance Scout nonsense.

Details shoestring research facilities

shoestring research facilities

The Gaians have got 2 Biology Labs.  That's it.  Ok, they did just get elected Governor.  I helped them with that, as did everyone else.  Guess they were sick of Lal.  But they were doing about this well before they were elected Governor too.

[bvanevery]

New game with version 196.
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15
15,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

Huge map, 30%..50% land, average settings.  I choose the University.  Random opponents.

Details first mindworm

first mindworm

I started surrounded by a bunch of fungus, between what is now University Base and Koppernigk Observatory.  A mindworm immediately popped from a pod where the energy special is, blocking my way to the north.  So I went south.  The land otherwise turned out to be rather fertile, and I also triggered various solar collecting specials.

This time, I have played primarily to increase energy, although also spreading for awhile.  I tried to set up Completions for Biology Labs rather than Recycling Tanks, on the premise that they're cheaper to maintain and more directly beneficial to the University.  I did not try to complete a Command Center, waiting instead until I had some big mineral deposit cities to start making one.

I don't think there's anything better I could have done with this spread, and not be an AI imitating colony spammer.  I shouldn't have to do the boring playstyle that the AI does, to make progress in the game.  Current testing, I consider to be mainly about rendering a verdict as to whether the game has devolved into a One True Strategy.  Where the AI has every advantage, much like how straight Thinker just made the whole thing about Boreholes and Condensers.  I consider reducing the game to such a monodimensional exploit, quite boring.

I can't really tell how I'm doing compared to the other factions.  I don't have any alliances.   I've done a lot of trading with the Data Angels.  Maybe I'm ahead of them, but I did have to buy Fusion Power from them.

I brought the Manifold Nexus just barely into my territory, quite some time ago.  However it is only now, MY 2171, that I've captured a mindworm.  I've had plenty of mindworm combat.  The +1 PLANET did help with home territory defense.  Farther afield exploring, my units do eventually get killed.  They might survive an attack or they might not.  I've had some Unity Rovers that got fairly buff in the field, but eventually got killed.

I made sure to explore this game, to pick up plenty of money from pods.  I won't run out of money this time, and I have a pretty good idea what's settleable around me.

Details dumbass U

dumbass U

I have 8 Network Nodes, 4 Biology Labs, and I've developed some energy on my land.  Despite all these reasonably good moves, my research is not impressive.  1 discovery every 20 years.  The Gaians last game did way better than that, every 12 years, with mere spam and 2 Biology Labs.  It may be that AI research and/or colony spam are so powerful that there's no point to doing any research, even as the University.  Many of my previous games, I've just gone Fundamentalist and had some ally gift me techs nonstop forever.  And a fair amount of time stealing stuff.

MY 2172.  I just bought 2 techs from the Data Angels.