SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[bvanevery]

Unlike Fungal and Tectonic missiles, Busters can't be detonated over terrain, which leads to one of the stupidest methods of defense by vacating the area of units and hoping it would crash harmlessly finding no targets.

I don't see the problem.  Not being in range of enemy weapons is Warfare 101.  PBs are mainly meant to destroy cities.  You can see cities readily on the map, they're not hidden.  If you don't allocate enough movement to get to a target city + some possible deviations while changing your flight plan en route, you're stupid and deserve to have your missile crash.

Incidentally in my mod a Missile Chassis can hit anything on a Giant planet, although it will take you 4 turns to get there.

[Nevill]

Are you sure it is not *two* of them acting? They have a wide coverage. Need to test.

Sorry, false alarm. Observed in vanilla install, but not in WtP. Presumably fixed by latest scient's patch. I must have missed it.

Pre-patch, the actions were completed twice, i.e. the FDS and pods shot twice. Now everything works as advertised.

I think it is also by design as game consider all of them to be offensive weapons. Do they cost less than buster so it is cheaper to sacrifice them?

Much cheaper, yes. But now that most of it works, I no longer have that much of an issue with it.
Oh, and Fungal/Tectonic missiles are not considered combat units. They have this button "Deploy payload", but they can't detonate over units. I was hoping busters could get the button from them, and the spec-missiles could get buster logic (i.e. deploying payload when moved on enemy units).

No surprise multiple combat mechanics mixed together is impossible to balance.

Not balance. Outright bugs. Like collateral damage to needlejets from artillery duels.

Did you mean the opposite?

No. Ship artillery duels are done with weapons. I've seen lesser weapon defend when a bigger one was available. I'll try to replicate it.

Never experienced it. I think in case of scrambling player is not even given the chance to alter decision. Not even odds dialog. Please show a case if you think you can recreate it.

I misremembered. It was not the odds dialog, but a diplomatic one.

Steps to recreate:
1) be not at Vendetta Status (Truce/Treaty).
2) Attack a unit in scrambling range of <SAM> unit.
3) The unit scrambles.
4) You get a prompt to break truce/treaty, which you can decline.
5) The jet stays scrambled outside of the base.
6) Repeat with all other jets, leave the base with no defenses.

You should get the prompt before you attack a unit, not after the other faction's jet scrambles.

Save attached. Rose has a couple jets/copters near Santiago's bases, and is at peace with her. Try attacking her formers.

I don't see the problem.  Not being in range of enemy weapons is Warfare 101.  PBs are mainly meant to destroy cities.

The problem is that right now busters can't destroy cities if there is no unit inside. The attempt simply produces the message that air units can't capture bases. If they can't be made to detonate over empty bases for "historical reasons", then making them function like other special missiles could be a workaround.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Steps to recreate:
1) be not at Vendetta Status (Truce/Treaty).
2) Attack a unit in scrambling range of <SAM> unit.
3) The plane scrables.
4) You get a prompt to break truce/treaty, which you can decline.
5) The jet stays scrambled outside of the base.
6) Repeat with all other jets, leave the base with no defenses.

Agreed. That is definitely a mixed steps those need to looked into.

[Nevill]

I updated the save. Try to attack the formers with <30>-?-8 (SAM-Psi-Interceptor), and see what Power value the enemy interceptors use. It's the value for PSI combat, not their weapon stat, rendering them completely helpless.

You can make a psi-attack interceptor and see what happens. You will be using the psi-power stat of 1, while the enemy will use their full weapon stat. Instead of psi-combat you get a slaughter.

The rules for psi-combat mix with rules for air combat and produce buggy results. There is quite a few of these odd interactions.

You could probably avoid them by marking air superiority as unavailable to Psi units. But there is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of psi interceptor.

[bvanevery]

The problem is that right now busters can't destroy cities if there is no unit inside.

Well that indeed is a cheat.  A correct solution would seem to be to make a city targetable and explodeable, as though it's a unit.  That would work for a neutral or enemy city, as you're not able to move your units into them.  It's problematic for an allied city, although I think requiring the alliance to be broken first would be acceptable, and not aberrant compared to all other kinds of attacks on allied units one might make.  Breaking an alliance does magically transport units, you don't get to just backstab them in place.  In other words, no Order 66.

No idea about the doability of this correctness.

[Nevill]

No. Ship artillery duels are done with weapons. I've seen lesser weapon defend when a bigger one was available. I'll try to replicate it.

'k. Can't reproduce artillery duels, but can do this.

Load the save and directly attack the tile with two enemy cruisers, 12-1-6 and 1-12-6. Use a gatling 5-1-6 cruiser for this. Instead of picking the unit with better armor and easily fending off the attack, the game will pick the unarmored one to defend, which will lose immediately.

Also. Pick a free tile in a 2-tile range of a enemy cruiser or artillery. Bombard it. See what happens on successful bombardment.

(a -100% hasty penalty, resulting in the immediate death of your ship, as it expended the moves and can't defend. It is not supposed to happen, I think. If there is supposed to be an artillery duel, then let them duel before the moves are expended)

[Nevill]

Ah. Maybe that's the reason. It may require immediate decision of both participants or something. However, how then humans can exchange techs and money and other stuff? Does it happen during somebody else's turn as if just someone is calling you? Should other human be network connected?

It is done via a messaging interface. It works like Steam trade. You put down items you want to trade, the other player puts down his, and presses accept. If you change anything in the offer, the other player's acceptance is revoked. If both players hit accept, the transaction commences.

As you can see, there is no button to gift them a base.

The interface is not ideal, and is subject to abuse. For example, I may offer another player 200 credits during my turn, and then spend everything on hurrying, leaving the treasury empty. If the player clicks accept, they won't receive the money. As most things in MP, it relies on an honor system to function.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I updated the save. Try to attack the formers with <30>-?-8 (SAM-Psi-Interceptor), and see what Power value the enemy interceptors use. It's the value for PSI combat, not their weapon stat, rendering them completely helpless.

You can make a psi-attack interceptor and see what happens. You will be using the psi-power stat of 1, while the enemy will use their full weapon stat. Instead of psi-combat you get a slaughter.

The rules for psi-combat mix with rules for air combat and produce buggy results. There is quite a few of these odd interactions.

You could probably avoid them by marking air superiority as unavailable to Psi units. But there is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of psi interceptor.

OMG. That is so messed up. Definitely a bug.

Good thing I've got rid of all Psi items in this mod. 😉
I had a very disturbed gut feeling about them not being right and, apparently, they are!

Where is the save by the way? I don't see it attached to any of your posts.

[Nevill]

Please look under the screenshots. They are loaded as attachments, too.

[bvanevery]

Details slog

slog

MY 2304.  This is the point at which the game wore me out.  In theory, my position is viable.  In practice, I don't make headway with even +4 PLANET, and other factions blithely keep making additional techs.  I'm tired of sending out probe teams to steal stuff.  All I see is spam as far as the eye can see, and the AI factions mostly don't conquer anything.  The Morganites and the Cultists keep trading sea bases, as they have several cities in the water that have no defense.  Otherwise, this is a boring game of hurry up and wait.  The actual waiting between turns seems long enough to be objectionable too.  I'm not strictly sure how long it is, but it's long enough for me to become conscious of my fatigue, at waiting for anything interesting to happen.

The lack of rails is a big problem on a Huge map.  It takes a long time to push units around, and that gets seriously old.

The home territory bonus is way too high and has to go.  I won't be testing the current default option any longer.  It makes the game static.

The AI colony production has to be capped.  It's too ridiculous.  Morgan should never have been PWNed by Cha Dawn like that.

I just did a count of the Hive.  75 bases, I think almost all of them produced by the Hive.  The Pirates had a modest 36 bases I think, and No Minerals in most of them.  The Believers have 85 bases, almost all produced by them.  They managed to produce units, despite having a large number of sea bases.

[bvanevery]

New test game with version 182.
expansion_factor=50
faction_placement=0
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15

I got the Data Angels.  I just realized that the expiring infiltration directly affects them in a big way.  It's not like my mod where "any techs known to 3 factions" is automatic.  I did that because the AI can't reasonably be expected to be competent at infiltration, particularly on Huge maps.

Details fungal vortex

fungal vortex

MY 2139.  This proves that the stock faction placement algorithm can stick one inside a fungal maze.  However I do seem to have gotten compensating features out of it.  It was possible to settle cities initially without having to touch the fungus.  The Borehole Complex was immediately nearby, and the minor benefit of the Sunny Mesa.

Oh shoot!  I think I'm accidentally playing the Map of Planet, due to some inter-game menu selections I clicked on.  I didn't recognize it at first, because I may have never played a game on it.  If I did, it was back in the stone ages, and then of course I did random maps ever afterwards.  I don't think this is even a Huge map, so I'll have to start over.

A Standard map would explain why everyone is already in contact and why we just elected Santiago the Governor.  Thought that was odd, getting it done so fast.

Ok I'm not sure this proves anything about the stock faction placement algorithm at all.  I did find the fungus to be unusually border-like, with solid walls of it preventing egress.  Like I'm in a pen.  Clearly it was hand designed to be that way.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The lack of rails is a big problem on a Huge map.  It takes a long time to push units around, and that gets seriously old.

I agree this is a drawback for larger maps. Did you invent hovertanks already?
Should I move it earlier? I think it won't be too harmful since the movement is limited on tubes now. It's level 11 now. Say level 7-8, maybe?

The home territory bonus is way too high and has to go.  I won't be testing the current default option any longer.  It makes the game static.

I am thinking to lowering it to 25% and, maybe, giving sensors their 25% defense back. This'll return sensor war concept back into scope again. Ugh. Tough decision.

The AI colony production has to be capped.  It's too ridiculous.  Morgan should never have been PWNed by Cha Dawn like that.

In which way? By number of bases AI can produce total? That sounds too crude. What if someone captured AI base, will it go out and found new one as now it is one below the cap? Sounds kind of stupid. Need some more economical limitation.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I got the Data Angels.  I just realized that the expiring infiltration directly affects them in a big way.  It's not like my mod where "any techs known to 3 factions" is automatic.  I did that because the AI can't reasonably be expected to be competent at infiltration, particularly on Huge maps.

They do not need infiltration to get techs in Thinker/WTP with their default configuration.
SHARETECH, 3

[bvanevery]

I agree this is a drawback for larger maps. Did you invent hovertanks already?

Nope.  Neither did anyone else, from what I've seen.

Should I move it earlier? I think it won't be too harmful since the movement is limited on tubes now. It's level 11 now. Say level 7-8, maybe?

Just looked at my tech accomplishments.  I stole various Tier 8 techs, that's it.  I'd honestly put Monopole Magnets on Tier 6 at the latest, which is equal to Quantum Power.  It just shouldn't be that exotic a capability.  In my mod the mag tubes come quite early, only Tier 3, but I'm not saying that's necessary for your mod.  I should be able to basically get it done at some point though, without having to wait the whole game for it to happen.

I am thinking to lowering it to 25%

I will be testing 15%, equal to a tier of PLANET bonus.  I really don't believe anyone should have a magic advantage.

and, maybe, giving sensors their 25% defense back. This'll return sensor war concept back into scope again. Ugh. Tough decision.

My Sensors are 50% and that was originally your idea, a long time ago.  I like them that way just fine.  It's a real drill to remove them from enemy installations.  It's a real choice to decide where to place them for your own benefit, and to remember to do it.  In fact, I may have achieved what you were trying to achieve with your territory bonus.  The difference is my method is not magic, you can get rid of the Sensors.  In fact the stock binary loves to shell Sensors, which is why you have to be careful about where you place them.  Front line Sensors, you're gonna get a warning that someone's shelling you, that's about it.  You have to put them behind your cities, for them to be long term effective.

I see no reason for you to be fretting about 25%.  You should at least try 15%, equivalent to a PLANET bonus.

The exploit about settling on top of a Sensor, well if the land inside a city got shelled, that would solve that.  Or erase all terrain improvements when the city is settled.  I don't know the doability.

The AI colony production has to be capped.  It's too ridiculous.  Morgan should never have been PWNed by Cha Dawn like that.

In which way? By number of bases AI can produce total? That sounds too crude.

Regardless, I can test that.  It's quite obvious to me that the AI is developing empires at least twice as large as it should on a Huge map.

And way too much emphasis on useless water, but I don't see a parameter for that.  In fact the right exploit for the current nonsense, is probably sea conquest.  Ships can get out there and do the damage a lot faster than on land.  Watching the Morganite Cultist endgame was pathetic, they just traded empty cities.

What if someone captured AI base, will it go out and found new one as now it is one below the cap? Sounds kind of stupid. Need some more economical limitation.

I don't know how the code works.  From its description I guessed that it's talking about making new bases, not about whether it's willing to capture bases.  This is how I play as a human anyways.  I don't spam forever, there's no point.  You're going to get a zillion bases in conquest, that you're going to have to put Punishment Spheres on at a minimum.

[bvanevery]

They do not need infiltration to get techs in Thinker/WTP with their default configuration.
SHARETECH, 3

Then their faction description is wrong.  Here's what you have:

Code: [Select]

^Gain any tech known to 3 other factions with whom Angels have infiltration: {Wide-ranging covert activities}
I have SHARETECH, 3 in my mod and this is how I describe it:

Code: [Select]

^Gain any tech known to 3 other factions: {Wide-ranging covert activities}