SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[bvanevery]

Ok, look, I just lost a 6-6-6 Very Green Chaos Battleship to a Green Scout sitting in a Pirate base.  Even if they've got a Naval Yard in every base by now, that's just ridiculous.  Having a home territory advantage shouldn't be some kind of magic that makes you immune to huge weapons.

Replaying the turn, 2 shellings with Chaos Battleships results in 40% damage on the target.  Yes it works but it's a bunch of tedious extra mouseclicks that I shouldn't have to do.  The game should not be spamming all these bases with Invincible Scouts.  It should have to put real troops in them, or lose them.

Oh, and get this.  On land, in my territory, I just shot a Hardened Chaos Silksteel unit at some interloping Scout, experience level unknown, on Flat terrain.  And I took 70% damage from that!  Ridiculous.

The combat balance is borked.  It needs fixing.

In the followup battle for the sea base next year, I shelled once to knock the Scout defender down to 50% wounds.  Then my Chaos Battleship took 70% wounds to kill it.  Ridiculous.  I have 6 to 1 gun strength.  This should be a summary execution.  It doesn't matter if WTP wants to "be different" about this, the numbers are dumb.

Details the punchline

the punchline

2 turns later, the Pirates mind control the base I didn't even want, but felt I had to deal with because of all the hostility and spam.  This is beyond tedious and I'm not dealing with it anymore.  I am done playtesting anything, pending changes to the combat odds and the mind control cost.  And you know I don't think much of the infiltration quickly going away either in single player.  Lotta dealbreakers going on here.

If the Pirates had to lose a great deal in order to have the base, like for instance proportionate to the expense of the Chaos Gunship and Gun Cruiser I just put in it, and had to defend it with real troops to begin with, well that would be one thing.  But as is, the AIs just spam.  They pay nothing for what they're doing, and it's actually stupid to take anything over.  It's like cutting my own nose to spite my face.  Later for that.

The base in question is about equidistant between our capitols.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

WTP didn't change combat odds it just increased randomness. Vanilla more predictable combat outcomes decrease number of surprises but having predefined combat result can be boring after playing few games. For me, at least, it was.
Would you mind turning randomness to vanilla level and check how it feels?

As for expiring infiltration this is a new feature so give it some taste and feel from other players as well. I don't think 20 turns is too long or too short. The difference is in concept. Previously player didn't have to think about maintaining infiltration. Now they do. Another errand.

Actually, I think, based on your feedback, we can differentiate duration for computer and human players. Like computer infiltrations never expires because they bypass them anyway. Human to human can stay at 20 turns. Human to computer can be like 50 turns to add this element to SP games but to not overburden player with it.

[bvanevery]

Would you mind turning randomness to vanilla level and check how it feels?

Alright... but let's be clear.  With too much randomness, you're going into totally stupid "Phalanxes kill tanks" territory ala Civ II.  I hate that crap.  And I hate everyone who's ever tried to have me on with some kind of contrived retcon explanation for why it "could work".  It's so bad it's not even funny.

Chaos Gun vs. hand weapons should have a very predictable result.  They're supposed to explode into little tiny pieces of gibs scattered all over the landscape, that mindworms maybe move in and gobble up.  I'm supposed to adjust my sunglasses and blow smoke off the end of my massive weapon.

If you don't have that image in your head of relative weapon strengths, you're doing it wrong.  No, the Scouts are not going to get a bunch of clever rocks together like MacGyver and pull some "stunning upset".  In war, when you're that badly outmatched, you die.

I don't think 20 turns is too long or too short.

5 turns is too short.  Pretty darned lame.  As a rule of thumb, I don't think I should have to do busywork for another 20 turns, but I won't swear to that without playtesting.  It's the conceptual time interval for a solar flare, or another vote on the Governorship, or other Planetary Council matter, or a Truce expiring.

Human to computer can be like 50 turns to add this element to SP games but to not overburden player with it.

Why jank the player every 50 turns though?

Why drop an asteroid on the player's head?  You had that one?

Why crash the network and destroy 3/4 of the player's money, or all their research?  I've had the energy market crash when I had the Planetary Energy Grid.

What's missing here is a meaningful notion of counterespionage as a play mechanic.  Random jankings ain't it.

Is it even possible to blind the AI player, in any way?  Can cloaking devices ever hide units from the AI?

The problem with this current approach, is the defender doesn't have to lift a finger.  They raise their PROBE rating, and they just start getting magical benefits, without having to produce any units or send them anywhere.  The offender / espionager has to do busywork, particularly on a Huge map.  The defender should have to do busywork too, spending resources to perform counterespionage.

I propose, the defender's counterespionage strength should be somehow proportionate to the number and quality of probe teams it has in defensive positions.  Meaning, inside the defender's bases, and possibly also their distribution.  Every city would have a "probe defense" rating.  Add them all up, and compare them to the offender's probe strength, computed somehow.  Offender should have a big advantage because infiltration is way easier than rooting out a few spies.  If the counterespionage is greater, meaning in practice a lot of probe team units compared to the offender, then infiltration is ended.

This still needs a meaningful way for the AI to be blinded though.

[bvanevery]

Beginning test of WTP 174 with one change to thinker.ini:
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0

Hope that's what you meant by the "vanilla" setting.  You have a lot of settings for things.  It's not presently a fault... I just wonder if at some point, it might be good to take stock of all of that, and decide how many adjustable knobs to really present to a user.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Beginning test of WTP 174 with one change to thinker.ini:
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0

Hope that's what you meant by the "vanilla" setting.  You have a lot of settings for things.  It's not presently a fault... I just wonder if at some point, it might be good to take stock of all of that, and decide how many adjustable knobs to really present to a user.

Yep. That's the one. It also has this comment few lines above.
; vanilla = 1.0 (or just disable alternative combat mechanics above)

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Why jank the player every 50 turns though?

Don't have the definitive answer. Maybe make them work for that a little instead of relying on early game infiltration forever. Sometimes factions becomes enemy, don't like each other, go to war, etc. It is much more difficult to sneak probe into hostile faction base. So naturally player will have less visibility into more fierce enemies those don't want to be infiltrated.

Maybe you are right and it doesn't make sense to use this against computer. Only human-human. Thus, effectively, leaving it only MP feature. I'll see what Nevill and Tayta say on this.

You idea about counterespionage is tempting but this is completely new and kinda huge mechanics that hardly fit game code.

[bvanevery]

Maybe make them work for that a little instead of relying on early game infiltration forever.

Spoken like someone who doesn't play on Huge maps and hasn't had to push a Foil Probe Team to the far side of the moon Planet.  Or worse, on foot!  It happens, when there's enough of a continental mass in the way.

The other bothersome thing is, I bet you're not going to give me any chance to refresh my infiltration before the 60-ish turns are up.  Nope, I'm guaranteed to have an interruption in service.

You idea about counterespionage is tempting but this is completely new and kinda huge mechanics that hardly fit game code.

I don't know the game code, but I assume that counting up units is not difficult.  Then the problem is filtering them based on being in the owner's cities.

Details invincible fungal buttons bad start

invincible fungal buttons bad start

I quit this game after 19 turns due to fungal tower buttons.  I had 3 of them, bottling up my starting location and ruining my access to land.  I did not immediately settle either, I walked 2 squares south to put Decision: Manifold down.  1 of the towers, I killed, but I lost a unit.  The 1 to the west, it got in the way of where I wanted to put my city.  In a previous game when I settled next to a fungal tower, in not that many turns I got totally creamed by mindworms, so that ain't happenin' again.  Doesn't matter if they come from the tower or somewhere else on the continent, the lesson is that being next to a bunch of fungus like that is bad.  That was a Morganite game that I didn't ever post about.

I prepared more Scouts to kill the tower in the southeast.  By the time I was ready to do that, it had become invincible.  It's only a button but it's got some kind of jank setting that makes it super tolerant to punishment.  In other games I've lost like, 5 Scouts attacking a fully grown fungal tower, and I was actually shocked that the 5th Scout prevailed at that point.  I expected to lose all 5 at that point, and it was going to trigger a quit.

Buttons should not be so tough.  It should be possible to remove them near your starting position.

The 3rd colonist, backtracked, went all the way around before that Monolith got popped, went west again, and didn't really find anything good, because there's just too much fungus to have a nice place to settle.  This is boring / counterproductive / on a slippery slope towards starting me in Civ II on an ice floe up at the North Pole.

If the buttons were killable, I would have settled next to the stalk, because of those 2 Rainy Rolling squares.  I would have produced Scouts, killed the stalk, popped the pods, probably gotten at least 1 resource special, and would have just grunted my way through fungus removal.

I don't think the faction placement algorithm makes any kind of consideration for the quality of the land one is placed on.  This isn't the 1st time I've been in this kind of predicament.  It has now gotten old.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/blob/master/wtp_changelog.md#version-175
I actually found a way to deal with genetic plague. Woo-hoo!

[bvanevery]

Proceeding with test of version 175.  Almost forgot to set alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0

I did not find any WTP specific setting for fungal towers.  I believe that the difficulty killing them, is due to the land psi combat ratio being set to 1:1, and the Very Green starting morale of the Scouts.  I think this means that even fungal buttons are going to be pretty obnoxious, starting out.  It takes awhile to come up with a Command Center, and Empath Song doesn't come for some time.  Although massive suicide tactics might be acceptable for some early game problems, that's not going to solve anything in the first 20 turns of the game.  They're just really in the way.

Does the game have any ability to blow up or destroy certain kinds of units within some radius of the player's starting location?  I really don't think these things should exist at close quarters.  They're too much of a problem.

Or else have the faction placement algorithm take fungal towers into account.

[bvanevery]

MY 2187.  Just finished my Missile Silksteel prototype when 2 Cultist clowns show up.

Details certainty

certainty

Combat odds are what I'd expect from such a lopsided contest.  I took 10% damage, which is appropriate for an easy battle.

Details 2nd Scout undamaged

2nd Scout undamaged

However the 2nd Scout received no damage at all.  I couldn't find a setting for that at first, but once I searched for the word "collateral" I found collateral_damage_value=0.  Is that a Thinker inheritance or a WTP choice?  I'm not in favor.

BTW when winning a battle with multiple units in the stack, the message "Target destroyed.  Collateral damage to 1 unit." still appears, even though no collateral damage is done.

[bvanevery]

Details kinda brief

kinda brief

I think I infiltrated less than 10 turns ago.  I don't know exactly how much.  I'm wondering if I have any chance to put a new device in, or do I just have to wait until all are discovered?

Details cannot infiltrate

cannot infiltrate

Have to wait.

[Tayta Malikai]

Good thinking with staging the loss of infiltration status over time.

And bvanevery brings up a good point. I think we also need the option to "refill" the infiltration timer back to full by performing Infiltrate Datalinks again.

Why jank the player every 50 turns though?

Don't have the definitive answer. Maybe make them work for that a little instead of relying on early game infiltration forever. Sometimes factions becomes enemy, don't like each other, go to war, etc. It is much more difficult to sneak probe into hostile faction base. So naturally player will have less visibility into more fierce enemies those don't want to be infiltrated.

Maybe you are right and it doesn't make sense to use this against computer. Only human-human. Thus, effectively, leaving it only MP feature. I'll see what Nevill and Tayta say on this.

You idea about counterespionage is tempting but this is completely new and kinda huge mechanics that hardly fit game code.

I personally don't feel it's particularly difficult to infiltrate the AI at any given point in time, and having infiltration provides the player with a massive advantage, as it further enhances those concentrated force attacks I went on about before.
Admittedly, I only play Standard maps, since I find Huge to be too tedious.
But even so, isn't it only reasonable that you have a hard time keeping tabs on a faction all the way on the other side of the planet, compared to one next door? The Planetary Governorship becomes even more valuable then, representing the infrastructure needed to keep surveillance over such a distance.
The one thing I would comment is that it likely feels more tedious to keep re-infiltrating in SP, because you play more turns within a given real-time span. So it feels like one didn't get as much value out of their probing. In that light, a longer infiltration timer for AI factions seems like a reasonable compromise.

As for MP, I'd say it's a great addition because infiltration provides a huge advantage to the player who has it. It still does, but at least a single probing (particularly if one player manages to probe and the other doesn't) isn't going to decide the fate of the game now. The player who got probed has the potential to counter-play by building more probes, upping their PROBE rating, and waiting out the timer before making any big moves. Of course, being afraid to attack for 10-20 turns is a risk in itself... but that's all part of the fun.
I can also see the potential for diplomatic shenanigans in larger games, where players who form a coalition are forced to share intel in order to keep the advantage over their opponent.
Of course, we'd have to test this in a game before making any judgements about it.

The counterespionage idea described above seems kind of redundant. Any (multi)player worth their salt is going to have probes stacked in most of their bases anyway, since getting probed is such a big threat (and not just getting infiltrated; tech steal, sabotage, and mind control are pretty dangerous too). I guess this would force you to build more probes in SP? But I have no idea whether infiltration affects AI decision-making at all, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[bvanevery]

Admittedly, I only play Standard maps, since I find Huge to be too tedious.
But even so, isn't it only reasonable that you have a hard time keeping tabs on a faction all the way on the other side of the planet, compared to one next door?

You aren't appreciating how tedious it is to get this done once.

The Planetary Governorship becomes even more valuable then, representing the infrastructure needed to keep surveillance over such a distance.

You simply aren't going to get that, just because you desire it.  In my mod for instance, depending on who you start as, it may be impossible in practice until you complete the Empath Guild.  Which in my mod is solidly late game.  The Governorship in early to mid game typically either goes to Lal, or to the biggest population grower.  Either Svensgaard or whoever is sitting on the Monsoon Jungle.

The counterespionage idea described above seems kind of redundant. Any (multi)player worth their salt is going to have probes stacked in most of their bases anyway,

I have to do probe team defense even in single player in my mod.  I haven't played WTP long enough to see whether the same conditions hold in it.  It is exactly because it's necessary, that I came up with the idea.

Details icked out

icked out

4:20 AM is when I called it quits.  The game might be viable, but the graph says I suck.  In any event the spam is legion.  I was in the middle of finishing Tree Farms, with some cities starting on Fusion Labs.  I found the -4 PLANET extremely irritating.  Even though nothing bad had happened yet, all sorts of alarm bells were going off in my head about all my work was just going to get flooded out.  For the longest time I was unwilling to alter my budget, to deal with the -4 POLICE that I wasn't used to.  Basically just lots of vague feelings that everything about this sucks.  Like it's making me itch.

Why should I fight such a silly map?  Is there anything to prove or be gained by doing so?

I never did make it to naval combat, because Morgan's steerage towards ECONOMY, didn't seem appropriate to naval warfare. 

Aesthetically this style of game reminds me of "single city victory" games against Civ II or Freeciv.  Although those might have been "starting 2 cities" games, depending.  Tiny civilization, massive world of nonsense all around.  Usually those are won by finishing key Wonders before others do, and thereby getting ahead on tech.  I'm doubting that's possible in this mod, unless the AI is a lot stupider in the endgame than I'd expect.

So really I've only tested Missile vs. Scout, per above.  That combat on my home turf at least did not seem goofy.

I really hate Democratic giving a PLANET penalty.  It makes no sense, and it just gets in the way of pretty much everything I want to do. 

[Nevill]

Funny. "More busywork" is precisely what strenghtening defensive bonuses does. It doesn't help AI play smarter, but it delays their demise. Some would say it makes the game more interesting. You don't need infiltration to win; you just benefit massively if you have one. You want to look at their stuff on demand, or you want their tech, or their money - you have to work for it.

Maybe you are right and it doesn't make sense to use this against computer. Only human-human. Thus, effectively, leaving it only MP feature. I'll see what Nevill and Tayta say on this.

MP games are played with computer factions too. Even though it usually doens't take much effort to infiltrate an AI, resourses dedicated to the task are ones that are not used against a rival human, and a human can use their probes to protect their AI ally. There are tools that let you substitute a human player with an AI and vice versa in an ongoing MP game. I'd say it makes sense to leave it functioning against a computer with the same effects it has on human players.

As for whether it should be a feature in SP games... It's a feature. Those who don't like it can turn it off.

As for MP, yes, a dedicated defence makes infiltrations (or any kind of probe actions) notoriously hard. This is why this feature is needed. Early game there just isn't enough resourses to cover yourself from all directions, and that's where most infiltrations occur. Providing detailed information on your capabilities  and army movements because of something that happened 100 years ago is absurd. If I invested in a solid defence, I expect it to at least inconvenience you before you break through. Giving people more chances to do spy play/counterplays spices up the game considerably.

Re: randomness. Actually, I've long wanted to ask this. What does it mean that WtP "increases randomization"? Are the displayed battle odds still accurate? I am seeing quite a bit of miracle wins, though I would hesitate to say if they occur more often than their odds would indicate.

I'll have to build a map for mass combat testing, put like a hundred units that have 80-20 odds, and compare the theory with the actual results.

[bvanevery]

It's a feature. Those who don't like it can turn it off.

Don't be blase about game defaults.  Too many points of "friction" for players, cause them to stop playing mods.  It's like, how many things have to happen that the player thinks are gross, before they don't want to deal with them anymore?  Different things have different levels of weight in this regard, but they all add up.

Well, why have territory bonuses and raise base bonuses?

Are you talking about various defense bonuses in this mod?  I think the territory bonus is silly high.  It's like magic.  Germans would have loved that at the end of WW II!  Oh you can't overrun us so good, it's our territory.  Ya vu.

Providing detailed information on your capabilities  and army movements because of something that happened 100 years ago is absurd.

The timescale of the game is generally absurd.  All sorts of things in the game wouldn't take a year to do.  So the argument is not about the passage of time, it's about the acceptable amount of back and forth between human players in the game.  In single player there's only 1 human player to be pleased.  In multiplayer it's up to y'all to agree on what "acceptable time" is.  It's not real, it doesn't take 10 years either to do probe missions.  It's just your rules about "how many turns have to elapse" before something changes.

I am seeing quite a bit of miracle wins, though I would hesitate to say if they occur more often than their odds would indicate.

The odds are dumb if they're saying a Chaos Gun should die against a Scout 25% of the time.  It shouldn't.  Ever.  Chaos Gun = pretty big threshold of you die, you melt into the ground.  Big organic puddle.

Lots of games over the years have done dumb things with randomness, and large portions of the player communities have absolutely hated the devs doing that stuff.  Really high dynamic range of randomness is not appreciated by all kinds of people.