SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Probe_Team_Success_Rate
For those interested.

[Tayta Malikai]

Oooh, now this is a feature we've been waiting for for a long time! Never thought I'd see the day!

Nice work. I guess I'd better catch up on all the talk going on in Issues. Lots of topics being opened up there.

The popup text you propose is technically fine, seeing as it conveys the essential information. That said, if you wanted to follow the game's style (and implied lore) more closely, I'd suggest something like this:

Code: [Select]

#SPYEXPOSEDENEMY
#xs 400
#caption Operations Director
We have discovered and neutralized a $FACTION0 infiltration of our networks!
^They no longer have access to our datalinks.

#SPYEXPOSEDOURS
#xs 400
#caption Operations Director
Our infiltration of the $FACTION0 networks was discovered and eliminated!
^We have lost access to their datalinks.


[Nevill]

It's a decent formula. My objection is that it scales a bit poorly with extreme PROBE values. As in, there is not a lot of difference between +1 PROBE and +2 PROBE, as all it does is reduce mathematical expectations to 16.6 and 14.3 turns respectively. It takes +5 PROBE to halve the expected duration to 10 turns.

I would propose something like Probability = 25/(5 - PROBE), with a PROBE rating of +5 and up setting the probability to 100%, and making the infiltration expire next turn. It provides a more linear spread from -40 to 0 turns (-5 to +5 PROBE), and makes running FUNDY to purge the spies more meaningful, and FUNDY + THOUGHT CONTROL even more so.

I admit, though, that it lacks the elegance of simplicity the above formula provides, and for most of the game that has to deal with +1/+2 PROBE ratings the difference between 14.3 turns and 12 turns is not that pronounced.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The popup text you propose is technically fine, seeing as it conveys the essential information. That said, if you wanted to follow the game's style (and implied lore) more closely, I'd suggest something like this:

Awesome! Updated.


Anybody knows what "#xs 400" is? I thought this is a dialog diplay/size/position but they still display differently even if they have same number.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

It's a decent formula. My objection is that it scales a bit poorly with extreme PROBE values. As in, there is not a lot of difference between +1 PROBE and +2 PROBE, as all it does is reduce mathematical expectations to 16.6 and 14.3 turns respectively. It takes +5 PROBE to halve the expected duration to 10 turns.

I would propose something like Probability = 25/(5 - PROBE), with a PROBE rating of +5 and up setting the probability to 100%, and making the infiltration expire next turn. It provides a more linear spread from -40 to 0 turns (-5 to +5 PROBE), and makes running FUNDY to purge the spies more meaningful, and FUNDY + THOUGHT CONTROL even more so.

I admit, though, that it lacks the elegance of simplicity the above formula provides, and for most of the game that has to deal with +1/+2 PROBE ratings the difference between 14.3 turns and 12 turns is not that pronounced.

You meant expected duration in your formula, I suppose. The probability is a reciprocal of duration.

Yes, you are repeating my argument that PROBE scale is very short and each step is supposed to matter a lot but with linear formulas (for either probability or duration) tailored for [-5, +5] interval, values near zero will be unnoticeable. I would propose to hand craft it for better reflection on vanilla scale.

Something like that.

default duration = 20 turns
Then each step up/down on a scale divides/multiplies it by 1.5 comparing to previous one. Multiplication coefficient can be adjusted/configured. This way we don't have cap. High rating shortens duration very much but does not guarantee next turn effect.

Code: [Select]

-4 101
-3  68
-2  45
-1  30
0   20
+1  13
+2   9
+3   6
+4   4

Mmm. Maybe 50% step is too much. We may try different options.

[Nevill]

You meant expected duration in your formula, I suppose. The probability is a reciprocal of duration.
+

Nah, I meant probability in percents, but then lost the word "percents" somewhere. This is what my formula means for different PROBE ratings:

Code: [Select]

PROBE / Expected Duration / Probability
-5 40 (2.5% prob)
-4 36
-3 32
-2 28
-1 24
0 20 (5% prob)
+1 16
+2 12
+3 8
+4 4 (25% prob)
5+ Next turn guaranteed (100% prob)
Nice and gradual.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Updated with nice looking tables. 😁
http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Probe_Team_Success_Rate

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Nice and gradual.

Indeed it is. I don't absolutely mind to try it.
However, you said yourself that most of the time player PROBE is in [-2, +2] range. So it won't have noticeable effect on spy exposure probability.

[MercantileInterest]

I used to think I wanted such a feature. Now, am not so sure. In multiplayer, it's really hard to infiltrate a competent enemy. You may only get one chance.

Some ideas related to infiltration:

When a faction is elected planetary governor, enemies lose their infiltration, as the new global bureaucracy roots out spies. Wouldn't work on aliens, of course, as they don't participate in elections.

+3 Probe rating makes a faction immune to infiltration, though not to other probe activity. Mostly would work for Believers running fundamentalism.

Building Hunter-Seeker Algorithm removes all enemy infiltration. To re-infilitrate, rivals would either have to use that probe special ability or knock out the secret project.

Building the Empath Guild provides the territory map for all rivals. You can already see everything inside their bases but very finicky to have to go through the datalinks.

Probe teams have to manually remove enemy infiltration by traveling to enemy HQ and conducting a special operation.


Definitely not requests. Just possibilities to think over.

[bvanevery]

When a faction is elected planetary governor, enemies lose their infiltration, as the new global bureaucracy roots out spies.

Wat?  Why?  That has no real world logic at all.  Government bureaucracies are not a counter-espionage dept.  If anything, they are more opportunity for spies to infiltrate, as you'll need to administer the whole globe and not just your own empire.

Since there's no realistic justification for it, I can only consider it in terms of a pure game mechanical contrivance.  And I do not see, why winning the Governorship should have such a hefty bonus attached to it.  You already get other benefits from being the Governor.  Why should an election be play mechanically compounded by the threat of you losing infiltration somewhere?  You're deciding who to vote for, now you're going to vote for the other guy just because you need to keep your infiltration?  This is not a good idea.

+3 Probe rating makes a faction immune to infiltration, though not to other probe activity. Mostly would work for Believers running fundamentalism.

Is this going to be another one of those things the AI ignores and cheats at, like deep pressure hulls and cloaking devices?  If so, I don't want it.  And if the AI is actually made to play "blind", well how is it really going to do that?

Your theme seems to be rules variations of value to multiplayer.  Not cool being on the receiving end of this stuff in single player.  I would suggest, some kind of server settable rules.

Building Hunter-Seeker Algorithm removes all enemy infiltration.

No thanks.  The play mechanic of getting your infiltration done before the enemy finishes the HSA, is pretty important in single player IMO.

Building the Empath Guild provides the territory map for all rivals.

No, unless infiltration itself also gives you the player's world map.  And seeing how that currently requires its own probe team mission, and you have to steal all the techs before getting the world map, and it's a theft with diplomatic consequences not a harmless action, I don't see why anyone should get a free handout on this.

Probe teams have to manually remove enemy infiltration by traveling to enemy HQ and conducting a special operation.

There is no simulation logic to this.  It is only a play mechanical contrivance.  So, is this play mechanically an interesting thing to do?  Maybe in multiplayer, you think it's great fun for everyone to be defending their "flag" at their "home base".  Maybe that's fine.  In single player, this sounds like a drag.  And again, what's the AI going to do when I blind them?  Can they even be blinded or do they just cheat?

I think the question of "how can infiltration be removed?" is worth asking, but I do wonder if it's anything other than a multiplayer concern.

[bvanevery]

https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/blob/master/wtp_changelog.md#version-170
Enjoy!

Infiltration may randomly expire every turn. Infiltrated faction PROBE rating increases probability in exposing infiltrator.

    infiltration_expire
    infiltration_expire_probability_base
    infiltration_expire_probability_probe_effect_multiplier

What verifiable effect does this have on the AI, when their infiltration expires?  Is this just a way to grief me in single player and make me do busywork, when the AI has no consequences?  I don't want that.

Similarly I would like the AI to be unable to see my cloaked and submerged units.  Right now, I believe it cheats like a mad dog.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/blob/master/wtp_changelog.md#version-170
Enjoy!

Infiltration may randomly expire every turn. Infiltrated faction PROBE rating increases probability in exposing infiltrator.

    infiltration_expire
    infiltration_expire_probability_base
    infiltration_expire_probability_probe_effect_multiplier

What verifiable effect does this have on the AI, when their infiltration expires?  Is this just a way to grief me in single player and make me do busywork, when the AI has no consequences?  I don't want that.

All players are equally affected PC and human alike. You have two popups: for yours and theirs infiltration removed. Check my screenshots.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Good news. I think I found a place where I can store infiltration counter that survives save/load. This is to implement initial Nevill's suggestion with gradual infiltration deterioration. It still can be probability based for a single turn but due to multiple turn tries it forms Poisson distribution which is more compact than exponential one - in other words, more predictable. Player can also get report how much it deteriorated to get a sense when they need to renew it.

Initially probe team plants like N redundant devices. Every turn counterintelligence has a chance to discover and disable one of them. The chance grows with PROBE rating as usual.
Regarding popups there could be two options. Either show them every time device is disabled or just last time when faction loses datalink connection for good. In second case it may be beneficial to show this number somewhere in informational screens. Don't know where yet so probably go with first approach.

I am thinking like 4 devices initially, average 5 turns to discover it, -1 day per PROBE rating. So, on average it'll match last Nevill scale proposal but will be more compact - meaning it'll still to average more and won't just discontinue at day 1.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Here.
https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/blob/master/wtp_changelog.md#version-173

I'll appreciate if you test it from the save/load point of view. Does the save/load maintain the number of devices? Does it set it up properly on infiltration? Especially in between human turns in MP game.

[bvanevery]

Testing version 171.

All players are equally affected PC and human alike. You have two popups: for yours and theirs infiltration removed. Check my screenshots.

The issue isn't whether a dialog box pops up and a game event is triggered.  The issue is whether the AI always ignores infiltration status and can actually see everything at all times.  I suspect this is how the game is actually written.  If so, there's no such thing as "equally affected PC and human alike".

Details five year infiltration

five year infiltration

I know I infiltrated the Pirates in MY 2000, because I happened to notice the evenness of the time.  5 years later, on the turn between MY 2004 and 2005, my infiltration is gone.  I checked their SE and they're Fundamentalist Simple Survival.  The effect of this rule change is that a Fundamentalist government almost can't have its stuff looked at by me, the human.

The Cultists got rid of my infiltration after a substantially longer period of time.    Currently they are Fundamentalist Planned Survival.  I don't know what they were when infiltration was eliminated.  They may have changed to Fundamentalist for all I know, triggering the infiltration purge.

These factions are my nearest neighbors.  I did lose foil probe teams doing infiltration, and having to reestablish it is busywork.  I'm playing on a Huge map and there's a lot of unit pushing to get to distant factions.  If infiltration with them went kablooey, that would be a serious PITA.

As usual I'm trying the tiny "natural" bigpox arrangement vs. the overwhelming sprawling AI colonization spam.  I'm starting to build Chaos Battleships to blow away the Cultist sea bases.  I noticed you're not letting me Repeal The U.N. Charter right now.  I don't actually want to live with all this useless sea base crap.  The game is expecting me to either deal with the immense tedium of capturing and owning all these bases, or to forego conquest until some time in the future.  Eventually someone will be in land contact with me, but that is not now.  And it doesn't seem like my bigpox has any advantage compared to the overwhelming spam, if I can't use it to strike.  It's like sitting around just waiting for the game to beat you, because it's too boring to do otherwise.

Another thing that's a serious PITA about this, is "turning off the lights" about what another faction's tech is, means I don't know what I still need to steal.  Which means I could go halfway around the world for nothing.