SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Nevill]

@Nevill and all.
Does this seems clear enough? Additional info at the mineral surplus row and in production completion turns.

It took me a bit to understand because the time to completion is exactly the same 2 turns with contribution (9 +14 out of 16) and without it (14 + 14 out of 16).

What I wanted is an estimate of how much production will be contributed to the project in total. Unfortunately, now that I understand the mechanic, this is impossible to count as SPC are not added consistently (they are only added if the base does not complete production and has minerals to contribute). So I am no closer to understading when my project is going to be built, though it helps to know what is going on on the rest of the bases.

I think it could be an interesting feature if one could "Stockpile minerals" as one stockpiles energy right now. This action could direct half of the base's minerals to the SP.

The benefits:
* Only bases that are designated to contribute would contribute. I don't want certain bases to contribute minerals away from completing drone quelling facilities, because if those aren't finished on time those bases won't be contributing at all.
* The output is consistent and predictable. 3 bases produce 60 minerals, come hell or high water I will get 30 minerals extra out of them.

The drawbacks:
* AI won't be able to use this.
* Since the mechanic is absent from vanilla, there are constraints in implementation. Can't choose a project to contribute to, can't choose a base if multiple projects are in production (always goes to the 1st one) etc.


Overall, it's an interesting experimental mechanic, but it feels rough around the edges.

And then we run into another aspect, namely, contributing too much makes project races non-existent. It's most noticeable with crawlers - the first to research the tech builds the project on the same turn by disbanding crawlers into the project. In fact, crawlers are projects built on multiple bases. Instead of building a 600-mineral project, build 5 crawlers. Then choose a project, 1 turn, done. Up to and including Transcendence.


Do we want people to build projects even faster?

[Hagen0]

You still can prebuild projects. The more expensive crawlers don't change anything in this regard.

Personally, I'd prefer removing all options for factionwide building of Secret Projects.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

It took me a bit to understand because the time to completion is exactly the same 2 turns with contribution (9 +14 out of 16) and without it (14 + 14 out of 16).

Yea. Could be a bad example for numbers. I just wanted to solicit feedback on interface elements.

What I wanted is an estimate of how much production will be contributed to the project in total. Unfortunately, now that I understand the mechanic, this is impossible to count as SPC are not added consistently (they are only added if the base does not complete production and has minerals to contribute). So I am no closer to understading when my project is going to be built, though it helps to know what is going on on the rest of the bases.

You are too harsh on that. This is merely a best estimate. Same as regular time to completion estimate in vanilla. These vanilla numbers you see are not a guarantee as production fluctuates with many reasons: pop changes up and down, new terraforming, destroyed terraforming, drone riot stops production, partial production buying with cash, etc. The bigger number of turns to completion the wider are variations.

I sure can subtract from surplus directly making it (a little) more stable flow. However, you are forgetting the main purpose of this is to help AI. And AI doesn't care about exact number of turns as long as it is relatively easy and quick. I can turn this option for human off to not confuse you at all so you'll resort to stockpile crawlers as before. Do you prefer that?

I think it could be an interesting feature if one could "Stockpile minerals" as one stockpiles energy right now. This action could direct half of the base's minerals to the SP.

The benefits:
* Only bases that are designated to contribute would contribute. I don't want certain bases to contribute minerals away from completing drone quelling facilities, because if those aren't finished on time those bases won't be contributing at all.
* The output is consistent and predictable. 3 bases produce 60 minerals, come hell or high water I will get 30 minerals extra out of them.

The drawbacks:
* AI won't be able to use this.
* Since the mechanic is absent from vanilla, there are constraints in implementation. Can't choose a project to contribute to, can't choose a base if multiple projects are in production (always goes to the 1st one) etc.

You already can stockpile them in form of crawlers. Why invent a bicycle? This feature is added for single purpose only: to help AI who is appalling with crawlers handling.

Overall, it's an interesting experimental mechanic, but it feels rough around the edges.

I guarantee you it will be regardless of all optimization I make because it's a new mechanics not 100% easily integrate with original code. Once again - it is not primarily for human player. I think we can even switch it off by default if you think it is too confusing and distracting.

And then we run into another aspect, namely, contributing too much makes project races non-existent. It's most noticeable with crawlers - the first to research the tech builds the project on the same turn by disbanding crawlers into the project. In fact, crawlers are projects built on multiple bases. Instead of building a 600-mineral project, build 5 crawlers. Then choose a project, 1 turn, done. Up to and including Transcendence.

You are substituting terms here. Anyone (AI including) can just stockpile crawlers and build all projects in 1 turn. That mechanics is still there.

I also think you exaggerate this. One can sure save and rush build one project to demonstrate the technique. However, I don't think it is possible to stockpile that much to rush build every project one can. This is too much burden for faction even in vanilla even less in WTP. Just for argument sake play Zakharov to get all projects earlier and try to build them all. Then tell us how it was.

Do we want people to build projects even faster?

You keep misunderstanding that. This feature does not give any free minerals just deliver them quicker to destination comparing to crawlers. One can dedicate 100% of whole faction production to crawlers-projects building and this is practical maximum. This feature won't break this limit. In fact pre-stocking crawlers can build projects in 1 turn as you illustrated yourself. Cannot be faster.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Personally, I'd prefer removing all options for factionwide building of Secret Projects.

You mean only by single base efforts? We have discussed this before. What is your reason?

[Hagen0]

By allowing use of crawlers for Secret Project building you essentially reduce it to a tech race. Conversely, building a Secret Project in a single base is an interesting optimization problem.

As for your idea, it makes building stuff a real chore especially if you want to rushbuy something as you have to calculate in advance what the SPC would be unless I misunderstand something. You also can't react properly to emergencies (like an attack) without changing production in the SP base and thus losing all progress.

The ai won't be able to plan setting up a Secret Projects properly but their gigantic bonuses should take care of that problem. Once you can't build projects in a single turn the ai has a chance.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

And? Why is it bad? What other race you want to reduce it to? Whatever you do someone will benefit more. Like for single base project Drones are obviously the best equipped for it. Besides, how single base build is NOT a tech race?

Single base is not an interesting optimization problem. One just pick a strongest production base for them all.

I agree about emergencies and stuff. I think I'll withdraw this change. It is too much cumbersomity for unclear benefit.
😓

[Nevill]

I sure can subtract from surplus directly making it (a little) more stable flow. However, you are forgetting the main purpose of this is to help AI. And AI doesn't care about exact number of turns as long as it is relatively easy and quick. I can turn this option for human off to not confuse you at all so you'll resort to stockpile crawlers as before. Do you prefer that?

Ah, you mean, a separate toggle for AIs/players? Perhaps.

My perspective is that of a MP player, so I am trying to tell you why it makes things more difficult for me. I don't care what AIs do. If they fare better with this option on, sure, let them have it.

Once again - it is not primarily for human player. I think we can even switch it off by default if you think it is too confusing and distracting.

I didn't consider that.
I can turn it off myself, it's no problem. A mod needs to present its features, so no need to switch it off.

I also think you exaggerate this. One can sure save and rush build one project to demonstrate the technique. However, I don't think it is possible to stockpile that much to rush build every project one can. This is too much burden for faction even in vanilla even less in WTP. Just for argument sake play Zakharov to get all projects earlier and try to build them all. Then tell us how it was.

Vanilla or modded?

I don't think I am exaggerating. I hate this mechanic so much I ban crawlers as a houserule in my games nowadays. It makes the game more fun. Most projects still go to human players anyway.

And I didn't say I'd get all projects. The early game is structured in a way that lets AIs breeze through tier1 to tier4 techs at a speed humans would be hard pressed to match. They stall around tier 5-6 though, and that's the point where all projects belong to humans.

In our MP game (that is still ongoing as we decided to play it out to the end - I will have some fun screenshots to share) the AIs built 6 projects in total between them, and I have not built a single crawler. If I did, they'd get about 3 or 4, tied to the techs before I got crawlers.

Granted, I had my probes do some legwork to sabotage Zakharov's cheating, and killed off 2 of his projects that were nearing completion, Manifold Harmonics being one of them.

You keep misunderstanding that. This feature does not give any free minerals just deliver them quicker to destination comparing to crawlers.

I am not, I just heavily dislike crawlers, which tends to color my views of this feature.

To answer your question, the new display is informative enough for what it does.

Edit:

What other race you want to reduce it to?

SPs should be a mix of tech, production and economical race.

Someone has money, so let them use that. Someone has a lot of minerals, let them use that and pray they fend off all the worms. Someone has industry. And someone has tech and gets a headstart.

1-turn building reduces all of that to a simple question of whether you are 1st to the tech.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I am probably ready to summarize it.

It was a nice idea to give AI virtual crawlers to speed up their project building. However, it seems to present many other problems those need to be solved as well. In the end they get tied into one big knot that eats a lot of my and community time. Apparently goal does not worth the mean.

Previous enhancements in this mod already make project building somewhat easier for AI (higher cost on a top of AI +3 inherent INDUSTRY at highest difficulty, AI spending cash to speed them up, etc.).

I guess based on the fact that human still get a lot of projects even in this mod the next step would be to actually teach AI to race for them rather than change rules hoping they help anemic AI to get more of them.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Edit:

What other race you want to reduce it to?

SPs should be a mix of tech, production and economical race.

Someone has money, so let them use that. Someone has a lot of minerals, let them use that and pray they fend off all the worms. Someone has industry. And someone has tech and gets a headstart.

1-turn building reduces all of that to a simple question of whether you are 1st to the tech.

An excellent suggestion. We all are trying to achieve that by all means.

I don't see how 1-turn building reduces it to anything. To accumulate fleet of crawlers one need minerals and money as well. The thing that such accumulation is too easy for human and does not impact their overall economical development is another story of how relatively mineral/money cheap projects are. So it is a cheap project price that reduces it to tech race not the ability to use crawlers.

[Hagen0]

Unless you are an ai building a Secret Project in a single base does not reduce to chosing your most productive base.

If you plan to build an important Secret Project it may already influence founding positions of your bases. For instance, you may want to found a base so that it has access to both of your mineral resources even though it misses the river which you otherwise wouldn't do. You can join colony pods to an existing base to increase it's output, stockpile food before research is done so that you can run a deficit for a while later on, chop forests with your formers to chave off a turn, trade for money to be able to rushbuy more minerals.

[Nevill]

So it is a cheap project price that reduces it to tech race not the ability to use crawlers.

No. It's crawlers, specifically.

When choosing between building a project and a crawler, there is no point in choosing a project.

Let's have a look at two identical bases building a project that costs 600 minerals. One builds the project, the other builds 5 crawlers. Even if crawlers don't do anything and hold position, they will complete the project simultaneously. Crawlers in the meantime can produce resources and speed up the production of the next crawler.

This is on one base. When you add to it the fact that you can build crawlers simultaneously on several bases reducing the build time proportionally, no human player would start a project they don't intend to finish instantly. There are no considerations like "this base won't be able to change production for the next 20 years, I better make sure everything is set up and defended".

It wouldn't be half as bad if the crawlers' ability to contribute to projects was removed or reduced from the current 100%.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Now I see your point and agree.

So you are proposing to ban them from project rushing. That'll reduce it to a single base build + some cash help. I think it is generally fairer toward smaller empires who still have strong bases.

However, wouldn't it force faction to use their strongest base for all projects? Thus concentrating them in a single base. Vulnerable to planet buster. Is it bad or fine?

[Hagen0]

Btw, you can rush projects using other units as well at a 50% discount. That's still a bit much.

The Planet Buster is a issue but that is more a problem with Planet Busters themselves.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Btw, you can rush projects using other units as well at a 50% discount. That's still a bit much.

Depends on the project price. It should be so doubling it's cost hurts faction significantly.

The Planet Buster is a issue but that is more a problem with Planet Busters themselves.

How are you going to cancel the ability to destroy a base? Disable them completely? There is too much logic tied up with it.

[Nevill]

However, wouldn't it force faction to use their strongest base for all projects? Thus concentrating them in a single base. Vulnerable to planet buster. Is it bad or fine?

Since I ban crawlers from most of my MP games, I can actually answer that.

1) You have several candidates for the title of the best base during the game. You can't have a base be out of commission for years on end and still be your best base.
2) You will want several production-intensive bases, as you will often be building several projects at once. Usually 2-3 at a time. Even when you don't have a suitable tech, you still build a "dummy project" to switch to once you research something.
3) Busters are unwieldy. They are too expensive and vulnerable for what they do. It's hard to sneak one in on an opponent that expects it and checks the units tab/sends out patrols. They cause massive eco-damage. And they can't land in empty bases. I don't remember when I built a buster last time; you need an army to deliver it close to the opponent... and if you have that, why not have more of the army instead? You only need a single land unit to capture the base and obliterate it.


That goes for vanilla, of course. With your changes I can't predict how it would affect things. For one, extra defense would make it easy to protect a buster even in the vicinity of enemy territory.

Concentrating projects in a few bases is a risk, yes. It is a decision, though. Putting all the eggs in one basket makes it so that you only need to protect one basket, after all.