SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Specialists modification proposal as suggested. Now each top level specialist produces 4 units of production and stays highly specialized. Thinker is not replaced by Transcend.

Doctor, +2 Psych
Empath, +1 Economy, +2 Psych
Transcend, +1 Economy, +2 Psych, +1 Labs

Technician, +3 Economy
Engineer, +3 Economy, +1 Labs

Librarian, +3 Labs
Thinker, +1 Psych, +3 Labs

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Let me repeat in hundredth time. There are so many different technology flavors that is impossible to make all prerequisites sensible.

I think I managed it in my latest mod version 1.43 tech shuffle.

Is it published?

[Hagen0]

Let me also give an example. I still remember the way to Air Power in Smac although I hadn't played it in many years. Part of the reason is that High Energy Chemistry -> Synthetic Fossil Fuels -> Air Power is intuitively understandable. There is some value to make this consistent. The game also loses a bit of casual/SP appeal if the tech progression makes no sense.

Regarding artillery. Did you change that too? Artillery damage on an equal tech level on a unit in Fungus should be 0.

[lolada]

How the defender is entrenched if there are no bunkers anymore? Is it just staying on fungus? If so then it is about 2.25 times stronger than attacker with equal weapon strength. So? It'll take one artillery and one attacker. No casualties.
In base with PD it is about 3 times stronger than equal equipped attackers. This is little bit more challenging. One artillery to wear it down to 1.5 and then two attackers, one dies. So 1:1 losses. Not bad for defended base attack.

Tim is right here - i just broke  Drones Neutron (10) defenses - behind Perimeter Defense - with mostly 13-1-1 / I have also some 16-1-1 attackers (protected by some armored units). I bombarded them 2-3 turns and just smacked infantry in - out of 4 attackers only 2 died.. sometimes 3-4 die, but its still about equal and you get the base. Without bombardments its tougher. First few bases can be tough to take, but it eventually snowballs. I'll post save in attachment if anyone is interested to take a look - terraforming is interesting too. Its M.Y. 2367 so you can have fun with lategame wars - i recently became Planetary Governor and passed double trade agreement - its money galore now.

I don't think even Tree/Hybrid forest need cost reduced.. unless they get nerfed in effect - they are just awesome with +2 Eco. At this stage minerals are just to juicy i am using more and more forests. Tempting to forest everything again...

I even used Power + Thought Control during the war turned all units to very high morale level. Morgan don't really have too much problems with -2 Industry. One can prebuild lots of units and then switch to power for high morale...

Regarding artillery. Did you change that too? Artillery damage on an equal tech level on a unit in Fungus should be 0.

Yes its changed - artillery has a chance to deal damage even when weaker - its in readme file. I suggest highly  to keep artillery at max weapon it really helps. 2-3 units are enough usually - 2-3 turns of bombardment and then attack.

[bvanevery]

Let me repeat in hundredth time. There are so many different technology flavors that is impossible to make all prerequisites sensible.

I think I managed it in my latest mod version 1.43 tech shuffle.

Is it published?

No, but I think it is feature complete and I am beta testing it.  If you want early access, I can make it so.  I will publish before the end of the month anyways, unless I run into an unexpected disaster.  Like separating Planet Busters from spaceflight somehow being deeply bugged.  I don't think there's a reason to expect that, but it's the sort of thing that does require a playtest before final release.  I suppose I could run an AI vs. AI game to speed up my confidence in that.

[lolada]

Doctor, +2 Psych
Empath, +1 Economy, +2 Psych
Transcend, +1 Economy, +2 Psych, +1 Labs

Technician, +3 Economy
Engineer, +3 Economy, +1 Labs

Librarian, +3 Labs
Thinker, +1 Psych, +3 Labs

I'd like to see Transcend being strongest. Its lore thing, so most point to transcends, 4 total. Or at least 1 more then other best specialist.
Empath and Transcend are like advanced beings ^^. Their benefits are spread out so one might still prefer Engineer or Thinker.. bur if you doubt it i would move Transcend anyway to late game - later then now.

Empath, +1 Economy, +2 Psych =
Transcend, +1 Economy, +2 Psych, +1 Labs

Technician, +2 Economy
Engineer, +2 Economy, +1 Labs

Librarian, +2 Labs
Thinker, +1 Psych, +2 Labs

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Regarding artillery. Did you change that too? Artillery damage on an equal tech level on a unit in Fungus should be 0.

Yes. Artillery now does a attack/defense proportional damage. Even if this ratio is less than 1 there is a proportional probability for 1 damage.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

How the defender is entrenched if there are no bunkers anymore? Is it just staying on fungus? If so then it is about 2.25 times stronger than attacker with equal weapon strength. So? It'll take one artillery and one attacker. No casualties.
In base with PD it is about 3 times stronger than equal equipped attackers. This is little bit more challenging. One artillery to wear it down to 1.5 and then two attackers, one dies. So 1:1 losses. Not bad for defended base attack.

Tim is right here - i just broke  Drones Neutron (10) defenses - behind Perimeter Defense - with mostly 13-1-1 / I have also some 16-1-1 attackers (protected by some armored units). I bombarded them 2-3 turns and just smacked infantry in - out of 4 attackers only 2 died.. sometimes 3-4 die, but its still about equal and you get the base. Without bombardments its tougher. First few bases can be tough to take, but it eventually snowballs. I'll post save in attachment if anyone is interested to take a look - terraforming is interesting too. Its M.Y. 2367 so you can have fun with lategame wars - i recently became Planetary Governor and passed double trade agreement - its money galore now.

Nice report, lolada!
😎
That is what I noticed too. It is not that expensive to penetrate the defense with prepared attack. However, I don't want to increase defense even more. People will not like it. I better work on AI.

Yes. Whatever we do it'll snowball sooner or later as you kill all front line defenders. In WtP it just happens later and requires some technological and economical preparations.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Let me repeat in hundredth time. There are so many different technology flavors that is impossible to make all prerequisites sensible.

I think I managed it in my latest mod version 1.43 tech shuffle.

Is it published?

No, but I think it is feature complete and I am beta testing it.  If you want early access, I can make it so.  I will publish before the end of the month anyways, unless I run into an unexpected disaster.  Like separating Planet Busters from spaceflight somehow being deeply bugged.  I don't think there's a reason to expect that, but it's the sort of thing that does require a playtest before final release.  I suppose I could run an AI vs. AI game to speed up my confidence in that.

I just want to look at your fixed tech tree if you have it completed already.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Empath, +1 Economy, +2 Psych =
Transcend, +1 Economy, +2 Psych, +1 Labs

Technician, +2 Economy
Engineer, +2 Economy, +1 Labs

Librarian, +2 Labs
Thinker, +1 Psych, +2 Labs

Doesn't it make Engineer and Thinker too weak? Their revenue is nothing comparing to working a tile. Nobody would like to use them.

Empath is currently at L6 which is fine.
I can move Transcend to L11-12
Engineer is L5.
Librarian is L4.
Thinker is L7.

[lolada]

Doesn't it make Engineer and Thinker too weak? Their revenue is nothing comparing to working a tile. Nobody would like to use them.

Hm whats the goal? I don't consider using specialists in general unless the base is working really weak tiles like 1-1-0 or 2-0-0 then i choose one thats good. If we want them to be used instead of tiles then we should determine some yield and balance around that.

I am fine with your numbers as well if you think mine were too weak. I presumed you wanted to nerf Transcens (they are op). Just then place Transcends at Tech11 thats enough to have them used to some effect - but keep them as superhuman  .

[bvanevery]

Part of the reason is that High Energy Chemistry -> Synthetic Fossil Fuels -> Air Power is intuitively understandable.

I have noticed that many techs do seem related, or at least can be seen as related.  Which one should precede the other though, varies!  In my work, it has varied with what I needed to get done in the tree.  So for instance, I have C5 Doctrine: Air Power --> C6 Synthetic Fossil Fuels.  I have the latter giving the Missile Launcher.  That's a strength 6 weapon, and my weapons and armors are pretty strictly slaved to their tech tier.

I can't always maintain strict relationships and sometimes I have to hand wave.  For instance C6 Synthetic Fossil Fuels + C6 Photon/Wave Mechanics --> C7 Probability Mechanics.  I can't tell you why synthetic fossil fuels or missile launchers would have a damn thing to do with this, only that it does.    

There's really no helping it.  I demand a strict weapon and armor progression in my mod, to control offense and defense and why you'd bother to invest in anything.  But the original game skipped all over the place with the tech basis of subsequent weapons, as far as their power rating goes.  Moreover, the numerical strengths of the weapons are slaved to the artwork for the weapons.  Thankfully the same is not true for armor, but for weapons, you're hosed.  If it's strength 6 or 7, it's drawn like a Missile Launcher.

[bvanevery]

I just want to look at your fixed tech tree if you have it completed already.

That's easiest to do by installing a clean copy of the game, then installing my mod on the clean copy.  Then you can hit Datalinks in the game, and see how things actually appear to the player.

I mean, if you're some of brainiac that can instantly remember all the dependencies just by reading the text... most people including myself are not.

I'm about to eat dinner.  I'll zip it up when I'm done.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Doesn't it make Engineer and Thinker too weak? Their revenue is nothing comparing to working a tile. Nobody would like to use them.

Hm whats the goal? I don't consider using specialists in general unless the base is working really weak tiles like 1-1-0 or 2-0-0 then i choose one thats good. If we want them to be used instead of tiles then we should determine some yield and balance around that.

I am fine with your numbers as well if you think mine were too weak. I presumed you wanted to nerf Transcens (they are op). Just then place Transcends at Tech11 thats enough to have them used to some effect - but keep them as superhuman  .

The goal is to make them less OP conservatively with as less as possible people being insulted by that change. 🤣
I don't use them too but others do. As well as AI who may not be aware of our change and continue turn them to specialists hurting itself.

I'll be more conservative with them then but move them to later. Less people will notice that. Anyway, I don't see much harm in giving them 4-5 eco/lab/psi past mid game. Any decent terraformed square is better than that.

Empath, +2 Economy, +2 Psych (L6) - seems fine
Transcend, +2 Economy, +2 Psych, +2 Labs (L9) - will be moved to L12. This is almost end of the game.

Technician, +3 Economy
Engineer, +3 Economy, +2 Labs (L5) - probably makes sense to move it to L9 somewhere

Librarian, +3 Labs (L4) - fine
Thinker, +1 Psych, +4 Labs (L7) - kinda fine too but may move it a little bit later too.

Slight improvement for Thinker as it feels kinda weak comparing to Engineer.

[Hagen0]

Specialists are a fine choice for factions that have problems with Energy/Research from tiles (like Yang). They need to be decently strong to remain an option.

Attached is the WTP tech tree.
Observations:
- I like a lot of the early tech progression from a gameplay perspective.
- Tech progression is consistently illogical from a flavour perspective, the late game in particular is a hot mess. 
- The alien technologies serve no purpose, make techprogression illogical (ie. Field Modulation grants Aqua Farms for some reason, it also makes no sense as an early tech) and worsen the problem that advances are spread out a bit too thin. (That's an issue with Smax not the mod.)
- A lot of overpowered advances seem to have been nerfed out of existence by placing them two seconds before Transcendence.