Fission Armor mod (SMAX)

[bvanevery]

However, I consider sending hordes of probes an exploit based on low probe team cost.

I've never thought the problem was what a probe team costs.  I think the low price of taking over a base is the problem.  In case you want to cry crocodile tears for poor little Domai in that test game, he could replace any facility I destroyed in one turn.  At that point in the game it was this deformed whack-a-mole thing, where you have to put down a city in 1 turn so that it can't make anything anymore.  It's not all that relevant to the normal costs of the game.  At least not on his part, as he could build anything.  But he's a dumb AI, you probably couldn't influence his choices.  He did build a few probe teams to throw at me, but they were useless because of my HSA, and possibly also my large bank account, and habit of doubling units up "just in case". 

Meanwhile, let's see how much minerals you need to destroy both perimeter and tachyon. With Algorithmic Enhancement versus highest security you need 4 teams for each = 8 teams total = 24 mineral rows.

Um, no, where are you getting that?  The odds for targeted assault on a facility are 75% success, even with previous probe team actions.  Assuming Algorithmic Enhancement and an Elite team, which is easy to come up with, even when a faction has a -4 PROBE rating.  At least in your mod; I eliminated raisings of base probe team morale in mine, and haven't don't have a way to get -4 PROBE.  Anyways, I usually didn't lose a team at all.  If I did lose the 1st team, I never lost the 2nd.  I say, probably 4 teams will destroy 3 facilities.  Tachyon Field, Perimeter Defense, and Geosynchronous Survey Pod at the end of the game.  So whatever 4 teams cost, not 8.

My 1.5 strongest unarmored hovertank is 26 (don't remember about 1.4). So even with probe exploit double priced Blink Displacer hovertank makes sense!

Umm I'm not following you.  Attacking a walled base with a hovertank isn't optimal.  Even if you bypass the base defense, the enemy may have ECM units.  You use infantry to avoid ECM and to get the +25% vs. base attack bonus.  You use instantly built rails to get the infantry next to the base immediately.  An alternate exploit is to build a Land Transport unit to drop the infantry out of a 'truck' and attack right away.

Old school, non-exploit approaches are to advance with armored infantry onto Rocky, Forest, or River terrain adjacent to a city that has a defense bonus.  Of course that makes the units much more expensive.  A way around that, is to accompany weapons only units with armor only units.  The weapon units can be shelled with artillery though, rendering them close to useless.  Or you can rush with human wave tactics, surrounding the defender with as many infantry units in different squares as possible, so that they can't shoot back at all 5..8 squares.  Or make sure these infantry are Elite and can move 2 squares instead of 1.  That's standard drill for the Spartans.

Actually it is even better as Blink Displacer gives you certainty while probes not.

Blink Displacers don't bypass Sensor Arrays or Geosynchronous Survey Pods.  The latter often still need to be destroyed by a probe team.

This makes things even cheaper comparing to probe team hordes. I don't understand why you complain.

Probably because your math is completely wrong.  I just tested all of this, I know what things actually cost, and how effective they are or aren't.  Probe teams that survive also don't get wounded, they can attack again next turn.

Also consider -3 INDUSTRY penalty.  It might be skewing the costs in nonlinear ways.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Meanwhile, let's see how much minerals you need to destroy both perimeter and tachyon. With Algorithmic Enhancement versus highest security you need 4 teams for each = 8 teams total = 24 mineral rows.

Um, no, where are you getting that?  The odds for targeted assault on a facility are 75% success, even with previous probe team actions.  Assuming Algorithmic Enhancement and an Elite team

Err, are you sure about this? Destroying perimeter is 75% for Elite AE against +3 PROBE?

[bvanevery]

Err, are you sure about this? Destroying perimeter is 75% for Elite AE

I ran at least a hundred missions, so yes I am absolutely sure of this.  Any targeted facility, 75% success rate, even with previous probe team activity and the advanced security lock at the base.  In short it is easy to destroy a specific facility with Elite AE.  The teams also survive such missions pretty well, you're likely to get to attack again next turn.

against +3 PROBE?

It doesn't matter what the defender's PROBE rating is.  It has no effect on the success rate of the mission, only your own probe team's abilities do.  These are governed by your team's MORALE and whether you've got Algorithmic Enhancement, those are the only factors.  I haven't tested whether the HSA changes things because I had the HSA, not the enemy.

Enemy PROBE rating would change the cost of subverting a unit or a base, but I'm not doing that.  I'm doing targeted sabotage of a facility.

I will now be careful about what I assert about my testing.  My enemy Domai had "not that high" of a PROBE rating.  However, notice that the Probe wiki entry only talks about increasing success for negative enemy PROBE ratings.  It doesn't talk about decreasing success for positive enemy PROBE ratings, only increasing cost.  Now, maybe there's more to it than that, but 75% is what I got against Domai.  Looking it up...

Domai had a +1 PROBE rating in my game.  This corroborates my claim that positive PROBE ratings on the part of the enemy, do not affect your success rate.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Yes, you are right. It is 25% against HSA. 75% against everything else.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Continuing with destroying defensive facilities.
With such high success rate for destroying defensive facilities Blink Displacer indeed doesn't make sense and it should be deleted. The problem here is that both of these methods are not circumstantial. They do not depend on any external parameters or enemy SE or own SE. One method would always be better than other. The breaking point is defined by probe team cost vs. extra Blink Displacer equipped unit cost. If not to touch probes then I'll delete Blink Displacer.

Another option would be to try and lower success rate for destroying defensive facilities. I am just thinking outloud now. Not everything could be implementable.

• Disallow destroying defensive facilities at all including from targeting random facility. Pretty direct measure.
• Specifically reduce success rate for destroying defensive facilities. Say making it 25% for Elite with no survival chance.
• Make success rate dependent on own and enemy PROBE rating. Currently it doesn't depend at all only subversion price does.
• Increase probe build cost. This impacts production same way as decreasing success chance does. The problem here is that fixed cost strongly impacts early game but not later one.

[bvanevery]

First 2 options are not good ideas.  Might as well just remove probe teams from the game.  3rd idea isn't good with your draconian PROBE penalties, and commits you to a binary patch at any rate.  4th idea is within your power but be careful with game balance.  5th idea is to increase the cost of Algorithmic Enhancement, since it's obviously cake.

One would worry about the cost of the Nethack Terminus as well, since it grants AE to all Fusion reactor or higher probe teams.  Not an issue in your mod because no such units exist.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

First 2 options are not good ideas.  Might as well just remove probe teams from the game.  3rd idea isn't good with your draconian PROBE penalties, and commits you to a binary patch at any rate.  4th idea is within your power but be careful with game balance.  5th idea is to increase the cost of Algorithmic Enhancement, since it's obviously cake.

One would worry about the cost of the Nethack Terminus as well, since it grants AE to all Fusion reactor or higher probe teams.  Not an issue in your mod because no such units exist.

Draconian PROBE penalties do not effect beyond game design caps -2 to +3 anyway.

Increasing Algorithmic Enhancement cost is valid but doesn't save it completely. Even without it Elite probe has 50% success rate destroying it. So the AE just improves these changes by 50%. Anything more expensive than 2 for AE would render it as burden.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Actually, I think it woul be ideal to lower defensive structures demolition chance to 0% for regular probes. This way enhanced one has 50% success chance. AE cost then directly corresponds to the cost of such destructive ability.

[bvanevery]

Modding with a stock binary in mind is not an exercise in idealism.

And I don't agree that defensive structures should have special immunity to probe teams.  That's just you saying you don't like probe teams.  Take them out of the game entirely if you don't like them, see if others agree with your decision and play your mod anyways.  I think the only thing I like about probe teams is tech stealing.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Modding with a stock binary in mind is not an exercise in idealism.

And I don't agree that defensive structures should have special immunity to probe teams.  That's just you saying you don't like probe teams.  Take them out of the game entirely if you don't like them, see if others agree with your decision and play your mod anyways.  I think the only thing I like about probe teams is tech stealing.

Well maybe 0% is too low. Maybe 20% or something for normal then it will be 60% for AE. Tripling success rate is something.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Now I start stinking there is no reason BD shouldn't come much earlier.
Probes are fixed price and fixed success chance so it is a fixed price of coping with defensive structures throughout the game. From the other hand, BD cost is proportional to contemporary unit cost and growth. So it looks like BD should be more much more efficient earlier in the game and lose to probes later. What do you think?

Say pricing BD at 4 is still a good deal even against perimeters. Couple of factors here. First, combat calculations are skewed toward stronger unit. When you attack same armor strength unit behind the perimeter with 1:2 odds you are losing not exactly 2 attackers on 1 defender but 3. So the producing double priced BD units is still more cheaper/effective than stamping regular ones. Second consideration is that it doesn't destroy defensive structures. You immediately have them for yourself after capturing a base.

[bvanevery]

So it looks like BD should be more much more efficient earlier in the game and lose to probes later. What do you think?

I think that bypassing a base's walls, is a game mechanic from Civ II.  It was embodied in the Howitzer unit.  Making a pile of rails and blasting the heck out of enemy cities attached by rail network, was standard drill in that game.  However unlike SMAC, I don't think you could instantly complete rails on the same turn.  I think you had to start working on the rail this year, then it would complete next year, if you put enough Engineers on the job.  Typically you would cover those workers with a strong defensive unit, such as a Mechanized Infantry.

Bypassing defenses is a strictly late game mechanic and under no circumstances should be put earlier in the game.  Otherwise you get into this ridiculous pointless game of buffs and debuffs, your walls don't matter neener neener neener!  You just have to decide when the "late" game begins in your mod.  I find myself pushing "late" game earlier and earlier.  For instance, I am experimenting with putting orbital insertion warfare much earlier, but still "late" game.

Also bear in mind that when you grant capabilities that a human knows how to use, and the AI doesn't, you're just making the game easier for a human.  That's not something SMAC needs.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

So it looks like BD should be more much more efficient earlier in the game and lose to probes later. What do you think?

I think that bypassing a base's walls, is a game mechanic from Civ II.  It was embodied in the Howitzer unit.  Making a pile of rails and blasting the heck out of enemy cities attached by rail network, was standard drill in that game.  However unlike SMAC, I don't think you could instantly complete rails on the same turn.  I think you had to start working on the rail this year, then it would complete next year, if you put enough Engineers on the job.  Typically you would cover those workers with a strong defensive unit, such as a Mechanized Infantry.

Bypassing defenses is a strictly late game mechanic and under no circumstances should be put earlier in the game.  Otherwise you get into this ridiculous pointless game of buffs and debuffs, your walls don't matter neener neener neener!  You just have to decide when the "late" game begins in your mod.  I find myself pushing "late" game earlier and earlier.  For instance, I am experimenting with putting orbital insertion warfare much earlier, but still "late" game.

Also bear in mind that when you grant capabilities that a human knows how to use, and the AI doesn't, you're just making the game easier for a human.  That's not something SMAC needs.

I agree in general. However, when you can destroy them with probes from the very beginning of the game - how does it make things worse?

[bvanevery]

You are touching on what I call the "vectorization" problem.  It is typical for a game like this not to be designed with a single uniform notion of "strength".  Rather, all these different kinds of strength are devised.  Probe team strength, mindworm strength, conventional weapon and armor strength, air combat strength, blah blah blah blah blah!  The net effect is to force you to "COLLECT ALL SIX" of whatever crap has been vectorized.  So the game takes 6 times as long to play, without being a more interesting game.  It's more tedious to have to make all of the different kinds of units to get anything done, and this is the primary reason I destroyed my Civ IV DVD.  Their vectorized city defense was insufferable!  If you didn't bring all the units, then there was always some preferential defender who would wipe your guys out.

I say, don't give in to vectorization by just piling on more buff and debuff wars earlier in the game.  It's actually more logical to remove probe teams from the game.

If you keep probe teams, realize that the defender can make defensive probe teams.  At least, in principle.  In practice, the AI doesn't keep them around as such, it starts moving them to attack.  I'm not sure if I've tried specifying probe teams with an AI plan of "Defensive," as opposed to the probe team plan.  Looking over my CHANGELOG, I definitely never shipped anything with that in it.  Guess I can try it and see if something happens, but I'm not expecting much.

SMAC in general has far more mechanics in it than it needs to be a 4X game of interest.  I'd say it's got roughly twice as much junk as it needs.  Could throw half the game away and nobody would miss it.  Cutting things down to what actually matters, is what I'm thinking about for designing a new 4X title.  I was encouraged when reading /r/4Xgaming today by a discussion about "newbie friendly" 4X games.  Well, the overwhelming amount of cruft in 4X games, is often a barrier to new players learning them.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I understand vectorization but this case looks like the opposite. You don't need all kind of units there. You may use probe or BD or none. Either way you can have at it and win. Probe and BD makes it somewhat more cost effective, though. That's it.

I think I made up my mind. Due to skewed combat rolls attacking the same strength behind the perimeter takes 3 times more casualties and behind the perimeter + tachyon - 5 times. This seems to be overkill especially because attacker already cost more than pure defenders. Taking probe ability to destroy such defense it makes completely stupid not to use them. So introducing BD somewhere near middle of the game shouldn't break this situation. Instead it should cap attacker investment at whatever BD price multiplier is. Makes sense to me.

Here is what I am going to change.
Make probes cost higher. Somewhere 6 probably.
Make AE cost 4. It raises Disciplined probe defense destroying chance from 0 to 50. Either that or promote them to Elite yourself.
Make BD cost 4 or 6. It is still more effective even against perimeter and incredibly effective against perimeter + tachyon. Of course, not counting probe team abilities.
Let BD appear somewhere around tachyon or a little bit earlier. It'll be somewhere last third of the game.

I understand this is not perfect but it is not perfection I seek. When I see some outlier feature I try to fix it. Somehow. With means possible. If this doesn't work either - I discard it.