SMACX Thinker Mod

[Induktio]

> Instead another glitch has shined: can't kick out of my lands probe teams at (63,17) and (59,17) (north of Pseudocode), because game considers them "not in our territory".

Yeah that's an interesting issue because it occurs with the vanilla binary as well. Although for the other probe team, vanilla asks for breaking the treaty before attacking it. For the other one both versions just say it's "not in our territory". It seems to have something to do with the fact that the tile has both player and AI bases in a 2-tile range (it's also base radius). Just goes to show again how vanilla is riddled with bugs. Sigh.

I noticed also that Satori does not have headquarters in that savegame. Did you play this game with auto_relocate_hq enabled?

[PvtHudson]

I noticed also that Satori does not have headquarters in that savegame. Did you play this game with auto_relocate_hq enabled?

No.
Tried revised_tech_cost=1, was surprised by tier 1 techs costing 90 RP, tier 2 ~238 or 258 (standard random map, Librarian difficulty) - feel the Civ:BE vibe. Reverted to standard formula for now.
Tried eco_damage_fix=1, no one global warming in two games even with 1, 1 numerator/denominator for frequency in alphax.txt (AIs generated lots of fungal pops). Reverted for now.
territory_border_fix=1 is super-useful, both on land and in the sea.

[Induktio]

> Tried revised_tech_cost=1, was surprised by tier 1 techs costing 90 RP, tier 2 ~238 or 258 (standard random map, Librarian difficulty) - feel the Civ:BE vibe.

And what do you mean by Civ:BE vibe???

In earlier version we had a special discount factor for the first 10 techs but it was removed even though it somewhat approximates vanilla behaviour. It's better not to have mechanics that promote tech beelining or similar minmaxing techniques.

> Tried eco_damage_fix=1, no one global warming in two games even with 1, 1 numerator/denominator for frequency in alphax.txt

Just remember that vanilla gives AI bases a big reduction in eco damage. Also, eco_damage_fix removes a stupid mechanic where players have to wait for the first fungal pop before tree farms reduce eco damage.

These two things produce somewhat opposite results but it's possible that, on the aggregate, the new tree farm mechanic outweighs the increased base eco damage being generated by the AI bases.

[PvtHudson]

And what do you mean by Civ:BE vibe???

From playing Civ:BE I remember depressing feeling of first tier techs indicating tens of turns to reach. Fortunately, this is ameliorated (in Civ:BE) by research found in pods.

In earlier version we had a special discount factor for the first 10 techs but it was removed even though it somewhat approximates vanilla behaviour. It's better not to have mechanics that promote tech beelining or similar minmaxing techniques.

Too bad this wasn't made into an option for those who prefer vanilla early game behavior.

> Tried eco_damage_fix=1, no one global warming in two games even with 1, 1 numerator/denominator for frequency in alphax.txt

Just remember that vanilla gives AI bases a big reduction in eco damage. Also, eco_damage_fix removes a stupid mechanic where players have to wait for the first fungal pop before tree farms reduce eco damage.

These two things produce somewhat opposite results but it's possible that, on the aggregate, the new tree farm mechanic outweighs the increased base eco damage being generated by the AI bases.

I'm afraid some bug is hiding here. Do fungal pops with eco_damage_fix=1 contribute to global warming? Because I certainly seen many of them in AI lands, which means they weren't prevented by Tree Farms built earlier. Nonetheless, fix of indeed strange eco-facilities behavior could only be applauded.

[vygov]

Hey!
Do I need to additionally install patches Pracx_1.11 and Scient`s_2.1 or are they already included in the mod?

[Induktio]

> Do I need to additionally install patches Pracx_1.11 and Scient`s_2.1 or are they already included in the mod?

Scient's patch v2.1 binaries are already included, I think this should be clear. The only reason you might want it installed separately is to run the vanilla binary patched with v2.1 without additional mods enabled (maybe to test something, dunno).

PRACX is not required for anything actually, but if you want those extra GUI features that are not yet merged in Thinker then you need to install it separately after you've unzipped Thinker files to the game folder.

> I'm afraid some bug is hiding here. Do fungal pops with eco_damage_fix=1 contribute to global warming?

In each case fungal pops should act to increase the clean minerals limit by one. So they will actually decrease the current eco damage amount. But separately from the current eco damage, sea level rise will be triggered after X amount of fungal pops. I don't remember the detailed formula for each sea level rise, but it should be mainly determined by the amount of fungal pops that have occurred across all factions so far. Not sure what kind of possible bug you are alluding to here.

> From playing Civ:BE I remember depressing feeling of first tier techs indicating tens of turns to reach. Fortunately, this is ameliorated (in Civ:BE) by research found in pods.

Maybe tech costs for tier 1 and (tier 2 partially) should be slightly decreased?

[vygov]

PRACX is not required for anything actually, but if you want those extra GUI features that are not yet merged in Thinker then you need to install it separately after you've unzipped Thinker files to the game folder.

Without the installed Praxc, the window mode does not work. A window that can be laid and move the mouse.

[Induktio]

> Without the installed Praxc, the window mode does not work. A window that can be laid and move the mouse.

In which way it doesn't work? The windowed mode implementation is different in Thinker and PRACX. Most importantly, Thinker doesn't do resolution scaling on the window because it slowed down render times significantly. Instead Thinker just provides a borderless window with a preset resolution. I recommend running Thinker using DirectDraw=0 option in any case. It should use the desktop resolution and it's possible to alt+tab out of the game window. Windowed option is not that necessary.

[vygov]

Yes, the window does not move, "glued" to the corner of the screen. Not too comfortable.

[Induktio]

Umm yeah, that's how it's currently implemented. I don't promise to look into it for the next version but maybe.

[PvtHudson]

> I'm afraid some bug is hiding here. Do fungal pops with eco_damage_fix=1 contribute to global warming?

... Not sure what kind of possible bug you are alluding to here.

Thanks for reminding the mechanic. The bug exactly as asked: could it be that eco_damage_fix=1 implementation erroneously missed the part "each fungal pop increases global warming counter"? Because in all my (though, not many) recent playthroughs I witness multiple fungal pops in AIs territory (plus 5-10 mine), but absolutely no warming (nor with 1/1, nor even 2/1 frequency ratio). I'll try to take more notice.

> From playing Civ:BE I remember depressing feeling of first tier techs indicating tens of turns to reach. Fortunately, this is ameliorated (in Civ:BE) by research found in pods.

Maybe tech costs for tier 1 and (tier 2 partially) should be slightly decreased?

It would be quite desirable. IMHO, not "slightly", but at least 2-3x.

[PvtHudson]

Maybe tech costs for tier 1 and (tier 2 partially) should be slightly decreased?

Let me explain my view on this. IMHO, elimination of one day existed discount for the first 10 techs was a mistake. As I understand, this was done to disable the last remaining possibility for beelining. But I fail to see the reason why beelining is bad, and isn't just another decision-making area to master. Beelining is already discouraged by tier-dependent costs, and not benefiting from diplomatic discount. Some wiggle space for the player could be left. Previously, Thinker Mod tried to teach AI to use overpowered techniques that humans [ab]use to win, rather than simply taking those techniques away from player (which widely practice bvanevery in his AI Growth mod and this, IMHO, is a dead-end road). Curiously enough, Thinker Mod even had implemented tech_balance=1 setting specifically for the right beelining. Not mentioning the original goal to not deviate too much from vanilla rules. That is why I think tech discount should be returned as an option, with or without some reduction of tier 1 and 2 tech costs.

[ariete]

hi PvtHudson, i just would understand which file or files ive to download from this link https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qsps5bhz8v020o9/AAAp6ioWxdo7vnG6Ity5W3o1a?dl=0&lst= to play with the last version ? just Thinker_v2.6.zip or all the previous  Thank you

[PvtHudson]

Hi Ariete! If I understand correctly, the routine is like this: 1) fresh install SMAX (for example, from GOG.com); 2) download just Thinker_v2.6.zip, no need for previous; 3) extract all from said zip into game folder (where it was installed at step 1), overwriting alphax.txt (if you back it up, then later you can check differences to decide for yourself); 4) run terranx_mod.exe instead of terranx.exe each time (you may need to silence your antivirus); 5) if all is well, Ctrl+F4 in game shows "ThinkerMod version 2.6"; 6) if you played vanilla SMAX before, lower your usual difficulty by 2.
I also recommend setting revised_tech_cost=0 and ignore_reactor_power=0 (they're 1 by default) in Thinker.ini for more vanilla-like experience, but you should play once with =1 and decide for yourself. By the way, there are many other fancy options in that file.

[PvtHudson]

Seems, global warming isn't bugged. So far, on standard random map got 0-1 GW event with 3/1 ratio, and Noah's experience with 10/1 ratio. Apparently, depends heavily on difficulty and present factions. Probably, sea factions with their additional sea minerals and low need for Tree Farms are worst offenders.