the Force keeps you from getting shot

[bvanevery]

So Star Wars explains to us all.  To much annoyance in the case of Greedo actually missing Han Solo at point blank range, in the edited tampering with the original movie.  But consider... C-3PO and R2D2 cross an entire corridor of Rebels and Imperials shooting at each other in the beginning of the film.  They don't get shot!  I remember when I was 7 and saw that, everybody in the theater laughed.  It was pretty funny, the 1st time around, if you can remember back that far.

In another thread, 2 of us have argued at great length about the relationship between piloting and The Force.  AFAIAC "Luke can pilot".  It was sufficiently explained in the original movie, I didn't find it any kind of stretch.  But it's one thing to fly, and another to shoot while flying.  And to avoid being shot.  Luke tells us he can bullseye womp rats with his T-16 back home and they're not much bigger than 2 meters.  I always thought a T-16 was a kind of landspeeder, and that Luke was "rednecking" it with a rifle or something.  So the claim was "yeah, I'm good at shooting while moving".  Just like anyone out on Bureau of Land Management land with an ATV or something.  Turns out a T-16 is a "Skyhopper", a sort of lightly armed civilian equivalent to an X-wing in some ways.  Well who knew?  Luke plays with a model of a T-16 when he's in his "basement" cleaning up the droids, but they never got around to explaining that this was a T-16, so I don't feel that guilty about my "misconception" over all these years.

One thing I did notice, and I'm not sure at what age the thought formed in my mind, is that the targeting of enemy ships is goofy.  Usually, when shooting at "normal" prey, one just waits for the computer to lock on and then presses a button.  Why the button is needed for authorization to fire... is surely just an anachronism, a perceived need for human agency.  I remember reading a Boys' Life article debunking such things, that modern antiaircraft (Phalanx?) guns already locked and fired on their own, that sound doesn't travel in space, etc.  But 1977 was also at the dawn of video games, so we can be forgiven for readily accepting that "pushing the button means something's gonna die."  Star Wars is nothing if not one big video game!

Anyways... "normal" prey, press the button and it dies.  Prey that's strong with the Force, dances all over the computer screen, and you can't get a lock on it, to make it die properly.  Except... look out the window.  In real life, what your eyes tell you, is that ship isn't jumping around anywhere near as much as the computer screen says.  If you just used hand eye coordination, forget the computer, blowing up those enemy ships should be dead simple.  Somehow I noticed this a long time ago, but I didn't fully verbalize the problem until now.

The solution?  Well in my opinion, they just didn't put as much effort into filming "crazy dogfights" as they could have.  At least not in the Death Star trench.  They didn't have CGI yet so maybe there were some limits on what they could do.  I've certainly seen a lot of other movies with a lot of crazy dogfights, using manual machine guns, where one gets a very credible feeling of "yeah, I'd have a lot of trouble hitting this guy."

So storytelling-wise they got me to pay more attention to this clever blip on the computer screen, and not the reality outside the window.  Quite an art of distraction, that is.  "These aren't the fighters you're looking for."

[Unorthodox]

If the force kept you from getting shot, explain the dead jedi in episode one, and Order 66. 

[bvanevery]

Which dead jedi in E1?  Master Qui Gon Jinn was run through by Darth Maul's lightsaber weapon, not shot.

As for Order 66, it seems that trust, idealism, or a belief in the goodness of the cosmic order, blinds one's senses.  The issue is quite a bit bigger than avoiding being shot, in combat.  Most of the Jedi were shot literally in the back.  I vaguely recall some of them lasting slightly longer in combat against Clone warriors shooting at them from every direction.  I presume their abilities with a Lightsaber weren't up to Yoda's or Obi Wan's level.  The "best" Jedi are on the Council, the underlings have things to learn.

[Unorthodox]

Sorry episode 2.  My bad.  The big jedi battle against the droids before the clones show up. 

[Unorthodox]

And he's blue, not green.  That's how often I watched this one...

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[Unorthodox]

Oh, look. 

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Never mind, didn't watch that before posting, it's EU stuff. 

[Unorthodox]

Here's the battle.  ~3 minutes in jedi falling all over the place. 

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[bvanevery]

Jedi "falling all over the place" ?  I saw 2 jedi die, that I could notice readily.  1, very dramatically shot by the armor wearing guy while standing in front of the Sith guy.  Another, just sorta falling down and getting wiped as the ring closes around the Jedi.  But mostly, the Jedi kick ass against overwhelming odds.  They are almost but not quite invulnerable, it seems.

BTW that Boba Fett looking guy you say is blue, isn't Boba Fett.  That's his Dad.  There are also world cultures where people can't tell the difference between blue and green (the Dinka cattle herders).

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that Jedi performance under incoming fire is exceptional.  They're very unlikely to get shot and will go up against overwhelming firepower like it's no big deal.

[Unorthodox]

Jedi "falling all over the place" ?  I saw 2 jedi die, that I could notice readily.  1, very dramatically shot by the armor wearing guy while standing in front of the Sith guy.  Another, just sorta falling down and getting wiped as the ring closes around the Jedi.

I suppose if you ignore the jedi bodies litering the ground and the defeated Jedi being held captive brought into the ring after the fighting stops, sure. 

But mostly, the Jedi kick ass against overwhelming odds.  They are almost but not quite invulnerable, it seems.

BTW that Boba Fett looking guy you say is blue, isn't Boba Fett.  That's his Dad.

Jango Fett.  I was saying the jedi he killed was green, but changed it to blue later.  I honestly thought it was Kit Fisto or another of that species that died up there, but my memory was bad. 

There are also world cultures where people can't tell the difference between blue and green (the Dinka cattle herders).

I'm quite famously color blind, but it's usually shades of similar colors.  "Teal" is usually just green to me, for instance.  My memory was just faulty as I don't think I've watched that one more than 2-3 times. 

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that Jedi performance under incoming fire is exceptional.  They're very unlikely to get shot and will go up against overwhelming firepower like it's no big deal.

I'd argue we see trained people performing exceptionally throughout star wars, and scrubs sucking.  Jedi, we see a highly trained group of people.  It becomes pretty hard to separate training from magical powers. 

Han: Exceptional, no force. 
Jango, above, exceptional, no force.  (equals Obi-wan, kills nameless jedi, dies to Mace Windu)
Wedge: Exceptional, no force. 
R2 exceptional, not even alive to be able to use force.
The list could go on. 

[bvanevery]

I suppose if you ignore the jedi bodies litering the ground

I saw mostly droid bodies littering the ground, not jedi.

and the defeated Jedi being held captive brought into the ring after the fighting stops, sure. 

Held at bay, not captive.  And they weren't dead.

I'd argue we see trained people performing exceptionally throughout star wars, and scrubs sucking.  Jedi, we see a highly trained group of people.  It becomes pretty hard to separate training from magical powers. 

Particularly when the training is all about accessing your magical powers.  What Would Harry Potter Do?

R2 exceptional, not even alive to be able to use force.

Somehow a very basic agent of The Force, the need for cosmic balance between good and evil.

[Unorthodox]

I suppose if you ignore the jedi bodies litering the ground

I saw mostly droid bodies littering the ground, not jedi.

Guess they started dying quicker than I thought, at 2 mins in. 






But, we end up with 15 Jedi standing in the circle.  We see at least 50 around the arena before...That's not doing very good. 

Held at bay, not captive.  And they weren't dead.

Disarmed, in the hands of geonosians, and apparently wounded. 

Particularly when the training is all about accessing your magical powers.  What Would Harry Potter Do?

But non-magical folk similarly trained perform just as well. 

[bvanevery]

Hmm.  Well I'm forced to admit that's a fair number of dead jedi.  What is going on here?

In the original films, there aren't that many jedi.  Obi-Wan, Darth Vader, Yoda, Luke.  That's it.  And they never get killed by blaster fire, ever.  Luke does get his hand re-wounded, but I say that was solely to show off that he has a mechanical hand.  Darth Vader, famously, not only does not get shot by Han Solo, he even causes blaster bolts to deflect or absorb in his palm.  Luke takes out at least 1 forest speeder that's shooting at him on Endor, using the ricochet technique.

Obi-Wan and Yoda are never shot at, so we don't know how well they do against blaster fire.  Darth Vader is immune; granted he's a fallen jedi.  We don't really know how well the Emperor would do in the original movies as he never gets shot at.

If you're a jedi and important, you don't get shot.  Much.  Luke gets shot a little.  Mace Windu doesn't get shot at all.  Famously, he cuts Jango Fett to ugly bits while being continuously shot at.  Sorta demonstrating the textbook jedi "this is how you not get shot and cut someone up" routine.

Pretty sure Obi-Wan and his master demonstrate near invincibility to blaster fire at the beginning of The Phantom Menace.  They do make a tactical withdrawl due to some heavy droids coming down a corridor, IIRC.  Can't remember how they resolved that one.  Maybe they got captured and then un-captured themselves?  I forget.  But I know they didn't get shot, when a lot of stuff was shooting at them.  Jedi mowing down droids was a lot of what the prequels were about.

Seems if you're a jedi mook, you get shot.  Or if you're being betrayed by Order 66 and are not Yoda.  The best of the best, the wisest of the wise.

[Spacy]

# of shots.  They can deflect 1 or 2, but when there are 30 all coming in at the same time.....

Blasters are "inaccurate" weapons.  At 20 meters they can be off target by 1/2 meter (trying to remember where I saw that, I think it was the MMO game, but honestly it explains why storm troopers cannot hit anything and it kinda stuck with me).  They are used due to their destructive power and lack of maintenance requirements. 

[bvanevery]

And the Star Wars universe didn't happen to evolve the efficacious alternative of traditional kinetic ammo, ala Stargate.  Point being, blaster accuracy is a handwave.  It's also bluntly dispelled in the original movie.  Roughly: "Look at these blast points.  Far too accurate for Sandpeople.  Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this precise."  The reason Stormtroopers miss, is simply plot armor.

[Unorthodox]

And the Star Wars universe didn't happen to evolve the efficacious alternative of traditional kinetic ammo, ala Stargate.  Point being, blaster accuracy is a handwave.  It's also bluntly dispelled in the original movie.  Roughly: "Look at these blast points.  Far too accurate for Sandpeople.  Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this precise."

IIRC the troopers on tatooine had a form of sniper rifle.  That could explain the supreme accuracy comment.   

The reason Stormtroopers miss, is simply plot armor.

I'm not sure they do miss more than anyone else:

A New Hope:
They are quite effective in boarding Leia's ship. 
The famously miss our heros in the death star, however, they are under orders to allow the enemy to escape, so this may be intentional. 

Empire:
No problems hitting rebels on Hoth. 

Jedi:
Do we get a big trooper battle?  I mean they are hitting Ewoks, but being killed by logs, sure. 

No STORM troopers in the prequels or sequels.  Though the First Order doesn't seem to be having much aiming trouble, and the clone troopers had no problems anywhere.