How the World Is Marking the 500th Birthday of Protestantism

[Elok]

I've never heard of one of our churches having the staffing to remain open for visitors 24/7, but I imagine that, if you call ahead, the pastor would be happy to tell you when the church will be open, and possibly even open up the doors for you some time, depending how close he lives to the church.  If he's stuck commuting from an hour and change away--which happens sometimes--he might be a bit less enthusiastic about that second option.  If the church is at all healthy, it should have at least one or two weekday or weekend services, like Vespers, when the church will be open.  Does it have a website?

[Buster's Uncle]

Well, I'm trying my best here.  If you'd engage more with my arguments instead of one-line criticisms, I'd have a better idea where you're coming from, and they might be less repetitive.  As it is, my POV isn't going to change because you call it "groupthink" or accuse me of bad faith.

Now that there's hilarious.

I was seeing myself in that xkcd...

[Elok]

Ah.  Sorry!

[Buster's Uncle]

[Unorthodox]

I've never heard of one of our churches having the staffing to remain open for visitors 24/7, but I imagine that, if you call ahead, the pastor would be happy to tell you when the church will be open, and possibly even open up the doors for you some time, depending how close he lives to the church.  If he's stuck commuting from an hour and change away--which happens sometimes--he might be a bit less enthusiastic about that second option.  If the church is at all healthy, it should have at least one or two weekday or weekend services, like Vespers, when the church will be open.  Does it have a website?

No idea.  I’ve just seen it from the road. 


I was thinking more on the lines of “I got 20 minutes to kill why not stop by that church?” Than let’s plan a meeting.

[Elok]

Yeah, it probably won't be open at any given random time you pop by.  You might have better odds early Sunday afternoon (when church is done and everybody's milling around drinking coffee in the hall), but I can't recall an Orthodox church that's left open for visitors all the time.  Sorry.

[Buster's Uncle]

So I've been meaning to ask for six months, and don't seem to have said this - what's the church for if it's wrong?

[Elok]

Uh, clarify?  Do you mean, is a fallible church still helpful?

[Green1]

@ Elok:

Unrelated, but I have never understood the relevance of the church for most folks, sometimes. As a whole, they do not seem to offer much benefit to attending.

I gave one a shot for a few years.

The Unitarian Universalists are one of the few churches that accept atheists and agnostics.  I stopped going a few years back because they got a little too much off the deep end with SJW stuff. While I empathize with the plight of gays, trans people, etc I do not think they should be given extra privilege nor should I be made to feel inferior because I may have had perceived advantages or disadvantages. Yet, they do not talk about the evils of landlordery or income inequality. Probably because the majority of the donors are all upper to middle class liberals that own property and tithe enough to pay the ministers and build parking lots.

It seems to me if you are not already middle or upper class in a lot of these churches, you gain no benefit from them. Yeah, they might feel sorry for you. Yeah, if you are short on rent and a member, they could help you out after taking 80 percent for themselves. But, because you are not the same class as they are you will never get to network for the better jobs, better buddies, whatever. You are not "one of them" nor have anything in common other than agreeing on certain things.

Add to that, this unpleasant fetish of having to jump up and sing 200 year old hymns when I have no interest in singing.

I do not think I am alone in feeling this way. That the churches have lost relevance to what most people really want and need. A place to network in a favorable place with people that generally agree with you for love, money, fellowship, and maybe learn a thing or two.

[Elok]

Since I can't find a short clip on YouTube, from memory:

REV. LOVEJOY: Hey kids, do you want to try Unitarian ice cream?
LISA: ... the bowl is empty.
LOVEJOY, snatching bowl back: ExACTly. (walks off with smug look on face)

My quick answer, since I have to go take a final soon, is that if you got a bicycle and tried it out for a few weeks as a drying-rack, you would be gravely disappointed with it, because bicycles were not invented to dry things on.  Similarly, churches were not invented to confirm the preconceived opinions of twenty-first century Americans (actually, Unitarians sort of were, but that's another matter), nor to provide them with a handy place to network.  If you use a thing for a purpose unrelated to the one it was invented for, it will very likely disappoint you, yes.

Also, two-hundred-year-old hymns?  That's silly.  Most of ours are at least a thousand.

[Green1]

No... the bowl was a coffee cup!

After all, it was Unitarian. You did know the flaming chalice is a cup of coffee? And yes, it's usually empty after the parishioners get to it.

I suppose you are right, though. Even they said you are not supposed to go there because you need a plumber or cardiologist. You are there to "worship", but what exactly? There is nothing really to worship. They do have the 7 Principles. Those are nice. I think even a Satanist would agree to them. We all have some worth, do not be a [feminine washing], and don't trash the place to summarize a few.  Now, I do know the Unitarians did believe in a god once, and the Universalists just believe in some distant force which sounds like a stepped up agnosticism. But that is besides the point.

If there really is nothing to "worship" really (which is kind of refreshing), then we have what the organization really offers. I plumbed my experiences to think of this.

I can only come up with this.

- It gets judgmental religious types off your back. You no longer have to say "atheist" or "agnostic". You just say "I go to the Unitarian church", they leave you alone. You avoid possible discrimination, outright scorn, and awkward unwanted conversion attempts.

- If you have young or school age kids, they have daycare during any event they have along with non religious teachings that are fairly safe where your kid is (hopefully) less likely get raped. Great for atheists with kids.

- They will give you a place to hold your wedding and officiate it for a donation that is cheaper than renting a ballroom at a wedding hall or hotel. No drinking or catering, though.

- They will send someone to check on you at the hospital, even if no one else shows up.

- If you or your family gave money, they will come out and say nice things at your funeral if you have one.

Other than that, not much else. Why shouldn't they be about networking? For that matter, all the religions should allow it.

[Buster's Uncle]

Uh, clarify?  Do you mean, is a fallible church still helpful?

I mean if the Church is wrong about some key bit of doctrine, wrong about God, then what good is it?

[Green1]

I had a little time to rethink something. About networking and churches.

I remember when I was a banquet waiter one event I worked. It was for some professional development organization for chefs.

The problem?

Only people right out of culinary school or between chef jobs showed up. That and the organizers themselves.

I asked my chef why he did not show up to things like that. After all, he was the chef of a fairly well respected country club.

His reply?

He was already a chef.

I guess if the churches were like that - with nothing to really worship and no docrine - the whales that already have stuff that actually keep the place afloat would not show up. The only people who would show are the ministers and people wanting stuff. Not very profitable and not good for continued existance. Unless, like the chef organization, they start charging for membership. Oh wait... they already have a religion like that! Scientology!

[Elok]

You can network at church, and many people do; it's just not the primary purpose of such organizations, and if you treat them that way you're likely to be disappointed.

I mean if the Church is wrong about some key bit of doctrine, wrong about God, then what good is it?

This is usually called "making the perfect the enemy of the good."  Imperfect things often retain a fair amount of utility.  All things considered, I believe it's better to be a devout Pentecostal, who spends an hour a week pretending to be an epileptic with glossolalia for the Holy Spirit, than someone who doesn't go to church at all.  Obviously I can't give you God's perspective on the matter.

[Buster's Uncle]

Okay then; let's take that a little further:  what good is the Church if it's based in, not just error, but blasphemy, both in doctrine repeatedly, and practice, constantly?