Effects of multiple PENALTY/IMPUNITY modifiers

[Yitzi]

If a faction has two copies of the IMPUNITY ability for the same social engineering, they stack, turning it into a positive.  For instance, someone with two copies of IMPUNITY, Free Market will gain 2 ECONOMY, 5 POLICE, and 3 PLANET (!) for running Free Market.  Three copies will double the bonus, etc.  Conversely, someone with two copies of PENALTY will have the downsides tripled instead of doubled, three copies will quadruple them, etc.

This is likely unintended (i.e. a bug), but because it adds more modding options with no downside, I think it makes more sense to declare it a feature instead.

However, in such a case, the Cloning Vats and Network Backbone will still eliminate the penalties-turned-into-boni...this is clearly a bug, and I will be removing it in the next patch.

Also in the next patch, I will be adding the ability to use IMPUNITY and PENALTY with social engineering values (e.g. POLICE, EFFIC), and these will stack in the same way, even with social engineering settings IMPUNITY/PENALTY; if someone has IMPUNITY, POLICE and IMPUNITY, Free Market, Free Market will likewise give +2 ECONOMY and +5 POLICE.

[Geo]

So, in a nutshell, PENALTY makes things worse, and IMPUNITY turns it better. How about ROBUST and IMMUNITY then? Does it turn a positive in a negative when stacked?
How did you figure this out?
I don't understand with the social engineering values you mentioned (POLICE, EFFIC). I thought you could already define them in a faction file? And link them with the PENALTY, IMPUNITY, ROBUST, and IMMUNITY parameters?
About those two secret projects that cancel the negative social engineering values, do you know if they remove the negatives from the positions in the social engineering table, or from the exact name in the social engineering table?

[Yitzi]

So, in a nutshell, PENALTY makes things worse, and IMPUNITY turns it better. How about ROBUST and IMMUNITY then? Does it turn a positive in a negative when stacked?

Multiple copies of ROBUST will simply halve it multiple times (so 2 copies of ROBUST, EFFIC will turn -4 EFFIC, or even -7, into -1); multiple copies of IMMUNITY have no additional effect.

How did you figure this out?

In order to add the feature with IMPUNITY/PENALTY for the social engineering values, I read the code, and that's a presumably unintended effect of how it's set up.

I don't understand with the social engineering values you mentioned (POLICE, EFFIC). I thought you could already define them in a faction file? And link them with the PENALTY, IMPUNITY, ROBUST, and IMMUNITY parameters?

No; until the upcoming patch, PENALTY and IMPUNITY will only work with social engineering settings (e.g. Police State), and ROBUST and IMMUNITY will only work with values (e.g. POLICE).  Anything else will be treated as a bad parameter and ignored.

After the patch, PENALTY and IMPUNITY will work with settings or values; ROBUST and IMMUNITY still make no sense for settings (since they are applied only after everything is added up), and so it will still be treated as a bad parameter (which will now be treated similarly to a bad tech code, on the theory that players would rather know when their custom faction isn't working like they intended due to a typo.)

About those two secret projects that cancel the negative social engineering values, do you know if they remove the negatives from the positions in the social engineering table, or from the exact name in the social engineering table?

Positions.  The variable effect of the Longevity Vaccine is also linked to the positions.

[Geo]

Positions.  The variable effect of the Longevity Vaccine is also linked to the positions.

Ah. Now that is good news.

[Dio]

I know exactly what procedure you are looking into for this change  .

[Yitzi]

I know exactly what procedure you are looking into for this change  .

There are actually three, not including the one that I wrote or the one where the faction file is read.  One for the actual effect, one for the display under the option on the social engineering screen, and one for the lower-left window when you mouse over that option.  (The latter two currently are not affected by IMPUNITY/PENALTY, but that's a bug that I'm fixing.)

[Nexii]

Interesting, seems useful to keep.  I haven't tested but I assume then that PENALTY and IMPUNITY on the same SE cancel each other out (since it seems to be a +/- multiplier on the base)

[Yitzi]

Interesting, seems useful to keep.  I haven't tested but I assume then that PENALTY and IMPUNITY on the same SE cancel each other out (since it seems to be a +/- multiplier on the base)

Indeed they do, IIRC, though that's just wasting two faction ability.

[Nexii]

Yea my thoughts were that you might be able to condense all of (PENALTY, IMPUNITY, ROBUST, and IMMUNITY) into a single modifier that can be +/- X multiplier to an SE category or choice, but it may not be worth the effort.

[Yitzi]

Yea my thoughts were that you might be able to condense all of (PENALTY, IMPUNITY, ROBUST, and IMMUNITY) into a single modifier that can be +/- X multiplier to an SE category or choice, but it may not be worth the effort.

Probably not worth the effort*, plus PENALTY/IMPUNITY work differently than ROBUST/IMMUNITY (the former is applied before adding up all effects from all sources, whereas the latter is applied after adding everything up.)

*Although if there's significant demand for it, it could be done, at least as far as condensing PENALTY/IMPUNITY and condensing ROBUST/IMMUNITY.

[Nexii]

Ok ROBUST is multiplicative but I forgot it only applies to negative SE effects.  So yes it might be difficult to condense all four due to the order of operations (although, one can argue this order is known)

Yea I'm not sure the demand for it.  But there's possibility for expansion here.

ROBUST -> an inverse that applies to positive SE effects / fractionals other than 1/2
IMMUNITY -> ability to set a ceiling and/or floor rather than just a floor of 0
PENALTY/IMPUNITY -> perhaps condensing these and allowing fractions and not just integers.

[Yitzi]

Ok ROBUST is multiplicative but I forgot it only applies to negative SE effects.  So yes it might be difficult to condense all four due to the order of operations (although, one can argue this order is known)

Yea I'm not sure the demand for it.  But there's possibility for expansion here.

ROBUST -> an inverse that applies to positive SE effects / fractionals other than 1/2
IMMUNITY -> ability to set a ceiling and/or floor rather than just a floor of 0
PENALTY/IMPUNITY -> perhaps condensing these and allowing fractions and not just integers.

Fractions get tricky, although they might be doable.  Having a ceiling and having a floor should also probably be two different abilities.