Social Engineering Overhaul

[MercantileInterest]

The multiplayer group that I'm part of uses the Smaniac mod. We're making a few alterations to the mod for our next game. One of the biggest changes will be the government system. So far the revision looks like this. Would like all of your expertise on the matter.


Politics

0. Freehold: +1 Police, +1 Probe, -1 Efficiency

1. Democracy: +2 Efficiency, +2 Talent, -3 Police

2. Police State: +2 Probe, +2 Police, +2 Support, -3 Research

3. Feudal State: +1 Morale, +1 Economy, -2 Growth



Economics

0. Subsistence: -1 Planet

1. Free Market: +2 Economy, +1 Research, -1 Industry, -3 Planet

2. Planned: +2 Growth, +1 Industry, -2 Efficiency

3. Green: +2 Planet, +2 Efficiency, -1 Industry



Values

0. Undefined:

1. Knowledge: +2 Planet, +2 Research, -1 Growth

2. Power: +2 Support, +2 Morale, -1 Industry

3. Wealth: +1 Economy, +1 Industry,  -2 Morale



Society

0. Conservative: +1 Research, +1 Efficiency, -1 Police

1. Cybernetic: +2 Research, +1 Industry, -2 Probe, -1 Morale

2. Thought Control: +2 Probe, +2 Police, +1 Efficiency, -2 Economy

3. Oviparous: +2 Growth, +2 Talent, -2 Research, -1 Planet

[Yitzi]

The multiplayer group that I'm part of uses the Smaniac mod. We're making a few alterations to the mod for our next game. One of the biggest changes will be the government system. So far the revision looks like this. Would like all of your expertise on the matter.

Ok, you should first be aware that having the default values have effects will mean you start with those effects; in particular, you're starting with +1 PROBE and RESEARCH, -1 PLANET...I'm not sure whether starting with +1 RESEARCH will give you slightly cheaper techs like a faction research bonus does.

0. Freehold: +1 Police, +1 Probe, -1 Efficiency

1. Democracy: +2 Efficiency, +2 Talent, -3 Police

2. Police State: +2 Probe, +2 Police, +2 Support, -3 Research

3. Feudal State: +1 Morale, +1 Economy, -2 Growth

Looks good.  Having MORALE and ECONOMY boosted together is interesting, since one is much more useful in peacetime while the other is better in wartime.  Feudal State might also be a bit underpowered, as GROWTH is important and MORALE is nice but not so good that +1 is a major bonus.
 

Economics

0. Subsistence: -1 Planet

1. Free Market: +2 Economy, +1 Research, -1 Industry, -3 Planet

2. Planned: +2 Growth, +1 Industry, -2 Efficiency

3. Green: +2 Planet, +2 Efficiency, -1 Industry

Looks fairly solid.  Be aware that Feudal/Market allows for fairly strong wartime research, unlike in the unmodded form.

Values

0. Undefined:

1. Knowledge: +2 Planet, +2 Research, -1 Growth

2. Power: +2 Support, +2 Morale, -1 Industry

3. Wealth: +1 Economy, +1 Industry,  -2 Morale

Should be workable, though Knowledge+Market is very strong (as Knowledge knocks out most of the penalty from Market, while boosting its research capability even higher.)

Society

0. Conservative: +1 Research, +1 Efficiency, -1 Police

1. Cybernetic: +2 Research, +1 Industry, -2 Probe, -1 Morale

2. Thought Control: +2 Probe, +2 Police, +1 Efficiency, -2 Economy

3. Oviparous: +2 Growth, +2 Talent, -2 Research, -1 Planet

Looks feasible.

Overall, I'm not sure how it'd play, but it looks worth a try.

[Nexii]

Market and Police State are a bit stronger in this set than the others, but nothing that strikes me as too imbalanced.

Conservative Future SE you'll end up being stuck with having almost all game, I tended to avoid modding this one.  But I guess at the same time all factions get it.

[MercantileInterest]

The society choices are discovered at levels 4-6, considerably quicker than the original game.

[vonbach]

Anyone else consider Thought control in general to be nearly useless?

[Yitzi]

Anyone else consider Thought control in general to be nearly useless?

It's designed for conquering the world.  If you're trying for a conquest victory, it's probably a fairly good SE to run.

[vonbach]

Anyone else consider Thought control in general to be nearly useless?

It's designed for conquering the world.  If you're trying for a conquest victory, it's probably a fairly good SE to run.

Honestly I'd count the other two as better for that. Though control gives morale sure but the +probe doesn't impress me and neither does the
-Support. I think i'll buff it but most of the time my games are over before it even appears.

[Yitzi]

Honestly I'd count the other two as better for that.

How so?  Eudaimonia gives a morale penalty, which is a significant downside, whereas Cybernetic's ---POLICE makes it difficult to invade, and more difficult to keep conquered bases under control.

Though control gives morale sure but the +probe doesn't impress me and neither does the
-Support.

+probe is good because your invading armies can't be subverted as easily (remember, subversion is a lot easier when targeting a force far away from its HQ), and the SUPPORT penalty is significant but if you're running Power as well should be less significant than the advantages.

I think i'll buff it but most of the time my games are over before it even appears.

Yeah, games ending early are another issue...

[vonbach]

The problem is the morale while useful is easily fixed by the trained upgrade at that point.
Probe the computer just loves to use. I was thinking about removing ++Support for something like
--growth. Or simply adding ++SUPPORT or Industry.
Eudaimonia is probably the best of the bunch. Cybernetic is very nice but the Police is crippling.
The morale penalty for Eudaimonia you barely notice. At least in my experience.

[Yitzi]

The problem is the morale while useful is easily fixed by the trained upgrade at that point.

Unless you want that spot for something else...

Probe the computer just loves to use. I was thinking about removing ++Support for something like
--growth.

That could work well.

Eudaimonia is probably the best of the bunch. Cybernetic is very nice but the Police is crippling.
The morale penalty for Eudaimonia you barely notice. At least in my experience.

I think it depends on situation.  (I think Eudaimonia's morale penalty halves the effect of command center etc., which can be a significant hit if you're on a war footing.)

[vonbach]

In My mod I just add + Probe to things like Police state and Power.
Doesn't seem like that important of a stat really to actually take the place of something else.
Its nice but the AI gets far more use out of it than I normally do. In my experience
the most important stat for war is SUPPORT especially for the AI. That and maybe MORALE.
Simply because the computer builds insane numbers of units to throw at people.

[vonbach]

The mod itself looks interesting.
Police state looks fine though -- growth might be interesting.
Democracy: Not sure about the idea of adding talents especially with the ---police. --Support probably would be better
Feudal: I'd add growth instead of a penalty. maybe - research or effic as a penalty


Free market: Looks interesting +research looks really powerful. -industry and ---planet seem ok
Green i've done this before myself. Its a good option but slows down Deidre

Knowledge looks overpowered
Power is fine though i like to put + probe in there
Wealth I sometimes put --police in there.

Let me know how it works out.

[Elok]

I always thought Eudaimonia was the absolute nuclear bomb of the future society options.  Free market has babies with wealth and the results have a relatively minor downside.  Sure, you have a morale penalty for your units--but you can build/rush-buy a lot more of those units with that kind of bonus.  The growth bonus is less important that late in the game, but still nice.

Then again, I'm not a good player and never played at any terribly high difficulty.

[Yitzi]

All of the future society options are powerful.  Eudaimonia gives large boosts to several productivity factors (though note that +1 energy/square is worth much less that late in the game because you should already be getting quite a bit; commerce boosts are great, though).  Cybernetic lets you run 100% labs at low penalty (none if combined with Democracy, and minimal if combined with Knowledge) for amazing teching.  And Thought Control is great for a late-game conquest push.