What is considered canon in Alpha Centauri?

[Yitzi]

Yeah, before she abdicated.

True, and Transcendence is definitely definitive.

 
Except:
1. That doesn't fit with the "age of miracles" part of the quote.
2. After Transcendence, Planet (for those who didn't join the Planetmind) is very much a Promised Land and a return to Eden (just read the epilogue), fitting very nicely with the language in that quote.
3. None of the main faction leaders like the Cult of Planet, and I suspect it fizzled out once the Voice of Planet was operational.

1- I think the only leader hinted to have abdicated is Morgan, since while Morgan industries keeps showing up, Nwabudlike doesnt.

That doesn't necessarily mean much; it could just be that after a few centuries Morgan delegated more while still officially being the CEO.

In fact, because the seven faction leaders are the leaders throughout the game, any abdication must be after someone wins, which would explain why it's not referenced in the game except with an endgame feature.  My interpretation here already works best with "after the Gaians got Transcendence", so that works well.

2-It is, but like i said before, she doesnt appear to me like the kind that would accept it (once again, her intolerance and her lack of concern for planet) 

I don't really see her as that intolerant.  "But it was never the streets that were evil", after all.  And her lack of concern for the planet would likely end once Planet is revealed to be an actual person, in which case her tendency toward empathy would likely mean she'd care about it too.

3- I feel like going to Heaven does fit the bill though (and to go there being dead is kinda a requirement) and I feel like that line is about that (You really cant cast off sin until you are dead)

The problem is that doesn't fit "time of miracles".  As for casting off sin...if sin entered humanity at the time of expulsion from Eden, wouldn't a return to Eden naturally come with casting off sin?

4-It does. And it equally fits what i said too :s

The "age of miracles" part doesn't really seem to fit your theory, and it also doesn't really fit  's character as shown in pretty much everything about her (her faction is largely fanatics, but she seems to be less so.)

5- Im not talking about the faction, I'm talking about the literal cult, like the worshipping. In late game, you can Temples of Planet and according to the gurps book worshipping Planet became a religion (a very pagan style one). I feel like that just the existance of any religion more popular than Christianism would be enough to make her shut down to any further reasoning, much more one that sees her "Promised Land" as a God

I think it would very much get a hostile backlash from her, but I don't think it would have a particularly detrimental effect on her relationship with anyone other than the cult.  And as for the cult itself, I don't think it would last long after the Voice of Planet is operational.

[BeyondChiron]

1- Fair enough

2- The gurps book outright says that despite her symphatic exterior she is profoundly intolerant of other ideologies. The fact that you think she isnt and that she is less fanatical just shiws why was she chosen as Psych Chaplain of the Unity (and from the meta perspective, it shows the skills from the writers)

3- I guess i'll just agree to disagree. Imo it doesnt get any more "miracle-ey" than, well, Heaven. And afaik (im catholic) the only way to stop sining (ie casting sin off) is to die

4- See above. Once again she is just generally smarter than going "GOD WILL SMITE YOU FROM ABOVE"  (except in the Theory of Everything iirc quote). This is a smart and complex fictional woman after all. Im sure that the part about her becoming a Messiah for millions of people in the Middle East after going there with the UN is what inspired Kavitha Thakur's creation

5- I'm not talking about the faction. I'm talking about the unoficial religion of planet which develops late game which, well, worships the planet

I really recomend you reading the gurps book. If you can find it and buy it great but if you cant its a google search away from you

[Yitzi]

1- Fair enough

2- The gurps book outright says that despite her symphatic exterior she is profoundly intolerant of other ideologies. The fact that you think she isnt and that she is less fanatical just shiws why was she chosen as Psych Chaplain of the Unity (and from the meta perspective, it shows the skills from the writers)

She is intolerant of other ideologies, I don't think she is intolerant of things that are not ideologies.

3- I guess i'll just agree to disagree. Imo it doesnt get any more "miracle-ey" than, well, Heaven. And afaik (im catholic) the only way to stop sining (ie casting sin off) is to die

"Time of miracles" doesn't really sound like "heaven, where there have always been miracles".  Perhaps we will just agree to disagree.

4- See above. Once again she is just generally smarter than going "GOD WILL SMITE YOU FROM ABOVE"  (except in the Theory of Everything iirc quote). This is a smart and complex fictional woman after all. Im sure that the part about her becoming a Messiah for millions of people in the Middle East after going there with the UN is what inspired Kavitha Thakur's creation

Entirely plausible.

5- I'm not talking about the faction. I'm talking about the unoficial religion of planet which develops late game which, well, worships the planet

So was I.  But I don't think that would last long after the Voice is active.  Planet's personality, when you can actually encounter it, is not very worshippable.

I really recomend you reading the gurps book. If you can find it and buy it great but if you cant its a google search away from you

Sounds like a good idea.  Maybe we can even play a play-by-post game sometime (although if it turns out to not be a very good game, maybe we can design our own SMAC RPG instead...)

[BeyondChiron]

1-Well the social process which lead to transcendence is definitely another ideology. Plus the whole "Human becoming gods thing" which is totally sacrilegious

3- Exactly

4- Awesome

5- After that it became a buddhist thing where people purged themselves of material possesions and meditated in the wilds and stuff like that. It sounded very Nirvana seeking

6-Sounds like a good plan.

[Yitzi]

1-Well the social process which lead to transcendence is definitely another ideology.

I don't think it's an ideology in that sense.

Plus the whole "Human becoming gods thing" which is totally sacrilegious

I'm guessing that she would oppose the phrasing as "gods", but not the concept of joining in the Flowering itself.

Well, unless "Last Testament" doesn't mean in the sense of "last will and testament" but as a successor to the New.

5- After that it became a buddhist thing where people purged themselves of material possesions and meditated in the wilds and stuff like that. It sounded very Nirvana seeking

I don't think that was the same as the Planet cult.

6-Sounds like a good plan.

Now I've read enough of the GURPS book to determine that it is not a particularly reliable source; it says the progenitor civil war was about what to do with their vast resources and the question was whether to loot said resources to achieve godhood.

In reality, the split was clearly the result of the Tau Ceti disaster, in which another one of the Manifolds underwent flowering (likely as per the plan for the Manifold project) and ravaged nearby systems.  The Usurpers felt it was still worth going ahead with the project and completing it via a form of Transcendence (enslaving the existing Planetary mind to achieve godhood), whereas the Caretakers felt the risk was too high and the project should be cancelled and flowering avoided.

And then one of the Manifold planets (actually, the one with the control center for the whole project) turned out to be only 4 light-years from a system with another sapient species with a very different view of things...

[BeyondChiron]

when it all comes down to "i think"s there is really not a lot to say.

I always understood like the Manifold incident was just the latest thing in that war. And truth to be said it makes more sense that way because becoming eternal enemies in just four (light) years...it sounds kinda silly

[Yitzi]

when it all comes down to "i think"s there is really not a lot to say.

I always understood like the Manifold incident was just the latest thing in that war. And truth to be said it makes more sense that way because becoming eternal enemies in just four (light) years...it sounds kinda silly

Where do you see four (light) years in the Progenitor civil war?  I referenced that amount as the distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri; humanity presents a third option in the Progenitor civil war.

The Tau Ceti incident itself was likely hundreds if not thousands of years ago, and its reference by both sides (explicitly by  , as "risks of flowering" by  ), and its high relevance to the main issue at hand, makes me think that it was what caused the civil war.

[BeyondChiron]

Ah I misunderstood your post. I still don't see anything in the game that contradicts the gurps guide in the war being older than the failure of tau ceti though.

[Yitzi]

Ah I misunderstood your post. I still don't see anything in the game that contradicts the gurps guide in the war being older than the failure of tau ceti though.

The fact that both  and  portray their conflict as being a response to Tau Ceti sort of indicates that's how it began.    doesn't really seem to be against Transcendence on principle, but rather because of the danger it'll lead to another Tau Ceti.

[BeyondChiron]

Ah I misunderstood your post. I still don't see anything in the game that contradicts the gurps guide in the war being older than the failure of tau ceti though.

The fact that both  and  portray their conflict as being a response to Tau Ceti sort of indicates that's how it began.    doesn't really seem to be against Transcendence on principle, but rather because of the danger it'll lead to another Tau Ceti.

Well maybe its becausecits because it was the recent event or because they hadnt actually clashes against each other before and they did there. Either way it doesnt contradict the previously stated nor it makes the book inconsistent. On top of that the progenitors dont have a lot f quotes anyway so the book is invaluable regarding them.

[Flux]

I wonder how the novels are. I havent read them

I'm ordering "Centauri Dawn" of Amazon some time in the near future, so I'll say what I have to say about it in the reading corner.
Although the reviews I've heard of it are that it was mostly a chore to get through.

[Yitzi]

The fact that both  and  portray their conflict as being a response to Tau Ceti sort of indicates that's how it began.    doesn't really seem to be against Transcendence on principle, but rather because of the danger it'll lead to another Tau Ceti.

Well maybe its becausecits because it was the recent event or because they hadnt actually clashes against each other before and they did there.

Except neither of those would explain its relevance to Transcendence.

On top of that the progenitors dont have a lot f quotes anyway so the book is invaluable regarding them.

Only if it is correct, which I am arguing it is not.

[BeyondChiron]

Transcendence importance comes from the last Tau Ceti thing yes but how would that invalidate a previous war or make it inconsistent? In SMAX the progenitors all about that because thats how they will reach "Godhood" and the Caretakers are all about stopping the Usurpers.

Anyway, the gurps book is officially supported by firaxis and frankly i find your reasons to doubt its canonicity not only minor but also really relative :s

[Yitzi]

Transcendence importance comes from the last Tau Ceti thing yes but how would that invalidate a previous war or make it inconsistent?

Because that's what the war is all about.  Also, the GURPS book makes it clear that it is talking about the Transcendence issue...but still portrays it as a philosophical difference rather than the response to the Tau Ceti incident.

Anyway, the gurps book is officially supported by firaxis and frankly i find your reasons to doubt its canonicity not only minor but also really relative :s

I find those reasons compelling.

[Dio]

In regards to Miriam's quote from the psi gate, perhaps these quotations from the unused script "#ASCENTNOTYET" and a portion of interlude16 might shed some light on the matter.

'Those who wish to live out their lives in their original human form will be allowed
to do so, since statis generators built Planetside and in orbit will preserve genetic
material, plant and animal embryos, cold-sleep humans, and significant areas of Planet's
surface through the metamorphosis.'
 
##ASCENTNOTYET
##xs 440
##caption Operations Director
#$BASENAME0 is ready to activate the Ascent to Transcendence
#project, but we do not have a sufficient number of Psi Gates
#and Stasis Generators at our bases!'

Perhaps Miriam was the one who led the remaining humans that did not want to transcend through the psi gates and into the statis generators. This transcendence would also, as mentioned previously, cause her religious order to mostly collapse and thus force her to abdicate as a faction leader.

On a related note, the interludes imply to me as though the secret projects Voice of Planet and The Ascent to Transcendence should be further apart. The number order of the interludes seem to indicate that the blurb from sentient econometrics chronologically should be after the voice of planet secret project. Finally, I noted that they either pretty much took the blurb from sentient econometrics and put it into interlude15 or vice versa.