What do you consider to be the White Whale of SMAC modding?

[Sigma]

Pursuant somewhat to this thread, I was thinking about things in SMACX that we'd love to be able to mod but at this point in time are unfeasible based on the community's current understanding of the game's code. These are the White Whales-- the ultimate achievements that are just beyond reach.

Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking:

• Having more than 4 SE choices for each category
• Having more than 7 Factions on the Map
• Expanding the Tech Tree
• Unlocking the Secrets of Caviar Editing
• Faction-specific Units

Personally, I'd be amazed at the prospect of unlocking the game's Interlude triggers, which would allow Modders to create entirely new and unique story progressions.

What are your thoughts?

[Yitzi]

The first basic rule is that anything that means new information, rather than just a new way for things to work, is difficult; it took quite a bit of work just to enable new alphax variables, and there were tricks that I used there that cannot be used when there's more data involved.

The second rule is that the more often something shows up, the harder it is to do something with it.  The number of factions is used all over, so it gets two "hits".

Faction-specific units would actually probably not be so incredibly difficult; essentially, it would be equivalent to a "virtual" tech automatically known by one faction and not tradeable to others.

[Dio]

I would like to see the rest of the features that were originally planned or partially implemented in the game completed.

1. The Unit prototype trade system implemented (PROTOPACT and the associated option on the #PROPOSALMENU).
2. Getting the COMMFREQ faction bonus to work.
2. Combat bonuses for certain weapon modes versus certain armor modes.
3. The ADVENERGY, ADVENERGY2, ADVDECIPHER, and ADVDECIPHER2 script options made operational.
4. The above operation would also involve making it so that probe teams start at a lower base morale level. Also, perhaps making negative SOCIAL, PROBE effect probe team morale.
5. Commerce Penalities reintroduced/implemented for negative SOCIAL, ECONOMY effects.
6. Getting SOCIAL, TALENT to work and display properly in the game.
7. Getting the additional Citizen Specialist effects implemented.
8. Fixing the FACTENERGYBON/PEN Script Display.
9. Making it so that you can play SMACX without having Fungal Towers, spore launchers and sealurks appear in standard games.

[Yitzi]

I personally I would like to see the rest of the features that were originally planned or partially implemented in the game completed.

1. The Unit prototype trade system implemented.

How does this work?  Because it sounds like something that we may be better off without.

2. Combat bonuses for certain weapon modes versus certain armor modes.

Should be doable as part of a general combat project.

3. The ADVENERGY, ADVENERGY2, ADVDECIPHER, and ADVDECIPHER2 script options made operational.

They aren't?

4. The above operation would also involve making it so that probe teams start at a lower base morale level. Also, perhaps making negative SOCIAL, PROBE effect probe team morale.

Both are actually on my current list.

5. Commerce Penalities reintroduced/implemented for negative SOCIAL, ECONOMY effects.

This would be doable on request (and I've actually decided to start taking requests fairly soon).

6. Getting SOCIAL, TALENT to work and display properly in the game.

It already works as far as I know; displaying would require figuring out where it should show up.

7. Getting the additional Citizen Specialist effects implemented.

Which effects are these?

[Sigma]

3. The ADVENERGY, ADVENERGY2, ADVDECIPHER, and ADVDECIPHER2 script options made operational.

I've never heard of these. What are they?

[Dio]

I personally I would like to see the rest of the features that were originally planned or partially implemented in the game completed.

1. The Unit prototype trade system implemented.

How does this work?  Because it sounds like something that we may be better off without.

2. Combat bonuses for certain weapon modes versus certain armor modes.

Should be doable as part of a general combat project.

3. The ADVENERGY, ADVENERGY2, ADVDECIPHER, and ADVDECIPHER2 script options made operational.

They aren't?

4. The above operation would also involve making it so that probe teams start at a lower base morale level. Also, perhaps making negative SOCIAL, PROBE effect probe team morale.

Both are actually on my current list.

5. Commerce Penalities reintroduced/implemented for negative SOCIAL, ECONOMY effects.

This would be doable on request (and I've actually decided to start taking requests fairly soon).

6. Getting SOCIAL, TALENT to work and display properly in the game.

It already works as far as I know; displaying would require figuring out where it should show up.

7. Getting the additional Citizen Specialist effects implemented.

Which effects are these?

1. The automatic request by the AI for a Protoype trade (PROTOPACT) was only skeletal and simply contained the code for showing the Script box.

COMMFREQ: Unless you fixed it in one of your more recent patch updates it still does not operate.

3.ADVENRGY would operate almost identically to ADVDECIPHER. ADVENERGY1 and ADVDECIPHER1 would prevent probe teams below a certain morale level from breaking into a base after the first such attempt on that base.
My mistake, #ADVDECIPHER is the option that currently works correctly to decreases probe team survival and success after the first probe team tech steal action on a specific base. I meant to say #DECIPHER instead of ADVDECIPHER. The DECIPHER script (if it worked correctly) would allow a probe team to either randomly grab a tech with a higher chance of success or to steal specific tech with a much lower chance of success. The chance of success is modified based upon whether it is the first or second plus action on the base. If the faction has no new tech it automatically takes their world map with option 1 and nothing with option 2 (bug).

7. Taken from the Help.txt File:

#CITIZENHECK
^Commerce bonus for base.
^Production bonus for base. Uncertain meaning
^Psi defense bonus for base.
^Morale bonus for base.
^Unit support bonus for base.
^Efficiency bonus for base.
^Aliens bonus for base. (Aliens Lifecycle Bonus)

This list exactly match the number of empty zero data pointers that appear at the end of each line in the #CITIZENS section of ALPHAX.

[Yitzi]

1. The automatic request by the AI for a Protoype trade (PROTOPACT) was only skeletal and simply contained the code for showing the Script box.

What would happen in such a trade if it worked correctly?

COMMFREQ: Unless you fixed it in one of your more recent patch updates it still does not operate.

Apparently true.  It's definitely a potential for the list of bugs to be fixed (when I switch to taking requests, the order of bugfixes for non-game-crippling bugs such as this will also be largely request-based.)

3.ADVENRGY would operate almost identically to ADVDECIPHER. ADVENERGY1 and ADVDECIPHER1 would prevent probe teams below a certain morale level from breaking into a base after the first such attempt on that base.

Do they not work properly now?

My mistake, #ADVDECIPHER is the option that currently works correctly to decreases probe team survival and success after the first probe team tech steal action on a specific base. I meant to say #DECIPHER instead of ADVDECIPHER. The DECIPHER script (if it worked correctly) would allow a probe team to either randomly grab a tech with a higher chance of success or to steal specific tech with a much lower chance of success. The chance of success is modified based upon whether it is the first or second plus action on the base. If the faction has no new tech it automatically takes their world map with option 1 and nothing with option 2 (bug).

Yes, enabling targeted techsteal would be a possible future project.

7. Taken from the Help.txt File:

#CITIZENHECK
^Commerce bonus for base.
^Production bonus for base. Uncertain meaning
^Psi defense bonus for base.
^Morale bonus for base.
^Unit support bonus for base.
^Efficiency bonus for base.
^Aliens bonus for base. (Aliens Lifecycle Bonus)

This list exactly match the number of empty zero data pointers that appear at the end of each line in the #CITIZENS section of ALPHAX.

Yes, that would indicate unimplemented options; the nice thing about unimplemented options is that they've probably already got the necessary space, making them relatively easy to implement.

[Lord Avalon]

I wish there were more slots in the Unit Workshop. I wish I could get rid of more than one obsolete unit type at once, so I didn't have to scroll all the way back to the obsolete unit section. Or at least a button for jumping to obsolete units. Or maybe the screen could stay put, meaning the focus would shift from freed up slot to adjacent slot.

[Dio]

1. The automatic request by the AI for a Protoype trade (PROTOPACT) was only skeletal and simply contained the code for showing the Script box.

What would happen in such a trade if it worked correctly?

COMMFREQ: Unless you fixed it in one of your more recent patch updates it still does not operate.

Apparently true.  It's definitely a potential for the list of bugs to be fixed (when I switch to taking requests, the order of bugfixes for non-game-crippling bugs such as this will also be largely request-based.)

3.ADVENRGY would operate almost identically to ADVDECIPHER. ADVENERGY1 and ADVDECIPHER1 would prevent probe teams below a certain morale level from breaking into a base after the first such attempt on that base.

Do they not work properly now?

My mistake, #ADVDECIPHER is the option that currently works correctly to decreases probe team survival and success after the first probe team tech steal action on a specific base. I meant to say #DECIPHER instead of ADVDECIPHER. The DECIPHER script (if it worked correctly) would allow a probe team to either randomly grab a tech with a higher chance of success or to steal specific tech with a much lower chance of success. The chance of success is modified based upon whether it is the first or second plus action on the base. If the faction has no new tech it automatically takes their world map with option 1 and nothing with option 2 (bug).

Yes, enabling targeted techsteal would be a possible future project.

7. Taken from the Help.txt File:

#CITIZENHECK
^Commerce bonus for base.
^Production bonus for base. Uncertain meaning
^Psi defense bonus for base.
^Morale bonus for base.
^Unit support bonus for base.
^Efficiency bonus for base.
^Aliens bonus for base. (Aliens Lifecycle Bonus)

This list exactly match the number of empty zero data pointers that appear at the end of each line in the #CITIZENS section of ALPHAX.

Yes, that would indicate unimplemented options; the nice thing about unimplemented options is that they've probably already got the necessary space, making them relatively easy to implement.

1. Their is a procedure in the game that controls the purchase of tech and commlinks. Inside this procedure is an incomplete section for also buying prototypes. As such, I realize it would be a lot of work to finish implementing such a feature. In other words, for almost every section I have seen prototypes in, it has been incomplete.

3. ADVENERGY, ADVENERGY1, and ADVDECIPHER do not currently work as of the most current version of your patch.

[Yitzi]

I wish there were more slots in the Unit Workshop.

This would be fairly difficult, but probably feasible as a major project.

I wish I could get rid of more than one obsolete unit type at once, so I didn't have to scroll all the way back to the obsolete unit section. Or at least a button for jumping to obsolete units. Or maybe the screen could stay put, meaning the focus would shift from freed up slot to adjacent slot.

Screen stays put would probably be the easiest, and probably not that difficult.

1. Their is a procedure in the game that controls the purchase of tech and commlinks. Inside this procedure is an incomplete section for also buying prototypes. As such, I realize it would be a lot of work to finish implementing such a feature. In other words, for almost every section I have seen prototypes in, it has been incomplete.

I also have serious doubts about whether the ability to buy prototypes is even desirable from a gameplay perspective.

3. ADVENERGY, ADVENERGY1, and ADVDECIPHER do not currently work as of the most current version of your patch.

So the second time targeting a base is no more difficult than the first?

[Dio]

My mistake again. The script for #ADVDECIPHER works properly. The other scripts are not operational but are in the game code. A method to prove Advenergy does not work is by simply probing the same base two or more times for energy credits. Stealing energy credits does not get harder the second time to probe a base. The other two are somehow related to probe team morale level.

Functions Correctly:
#ADVDECIPHER
#xs 440
#caption Operations Director
Our probe team believes the network at $BASENAME0 to be newly equipped
with a high security interlock! Continued tampering risks exposure.

Abort mission. ($CHANCES1)
Break in at all costs. ($CHANCES2)

Does Not Function:
#ADVENERGY
#xs 440
#caption Operations Director
Our probe team believes the energy grid at $BASENAME0 to be newly equipped
with a high security interlock! Continued tampering risks exposure.

Abort mission. ($CHANCES1)
Break in at all costs. ($CHANCES2)

#ADVENERGY1
#xs 440
#wave 11
#caption Operations Director
Our probe team has found the energy grid at $BASENAME0 to be newly equipped
with a high security interlock! This probe team does not have sufficient
experience to bypass such a countermeasure.

#ADVDECIPHER1
#xs 440
#caption Operations Director
Our probe team has found the network at $BASENAME0 to be newly equipped
with a high security interlock. This probe team does not have sufficient
experience to bypass such a countermeasure.

[ete]

For me the biggest thing I'd love to be able to do but can't is give the ability to build specific units as a faction bonus. The way custom units can be defined allows for all sorts of cool things normally not buildable like Probe Planes or units with loads of interesting abilities at once, but allowing them generally changes the game too much. Being able to give them to factions would be pretty awesome, and allow for a bunch of diverse awesome factions.

The two approaches I can see would be adding a field in the alphax which gives the name of a faction, and only allows the unit to be built by that faction (if blank applies to all factions), or possibly adding a field in the faction text file which lets you specify units there. You may be able to steal code for "if faction name is x do y" from the Cult's late start, which is hardcoded against the faction text name.

[Yitzi]

My mistake again. The script for #ADVDECIPHER works properly. The other scripts are not operational but are in the game code. A method to prove Advenergy does not work is by simply probing the same base two or more times for energy credits. Stealing energy credits does not get harder the second time to probe a base. The other two are somehow related to probe team morale level.

Ok...stealing energy not getting harder may be an intentional decision rather than a bug; while an eventual interlock rework would probably involve enabling it, that's not a bug.

The others are probably just because the probe team morale can never get low enough to make the action impossible.

For me the biggest thing I'd love to be able to do but can't is give the ability to build specific units as a faction bonus. The way custom units can be defined allows for all sorts of cool things normally not buildable like Probe Planes or units with loads of interesting abilities at once, but allowing them generally changes the game too much. Being able to give them to factions would be pretty awesome, and allow for a bunch of diverse awesome factions.

This would likely be part of a general tech tree rework, allowing more techs and "virtual techs", i.e. techs that are automatically researched as soon as you have the prerequisites, do not count toward your total techs, and cannot be traded.  Then you could just make a virtual tech with prerequisite Disable (so it can't be researched), give it for free to the faction in question, and make it the prerequisite for the desired unit.

The two approaches I can see would be adding a field in the alphax which gives the name of a faction, and only allows the unit to be built by that faction (if blank applies to all factions), or possibly adding a field in the faction text file which lets you specify units there.

Either of those would work as well, but would not enable as many other modding options.

You may be able to steal code for "if faction name is x do y" from the Cult's late start, which is hardcoded against the faction text name.

It also shows up in the Caretakers' aversion to Transcendence.

[Nexii]

Special abilities for native life.  Though I haven't given it much thought.

[Yitzi]

Special abilities for native life.  Though I haven't given it much thought.

This actually can be done with just alphax.txt modding.

Basically, any predesigned unit with a psi attack (or fungal towers even without a psi attack) is considered native, with everything that includes...so if you give said units special abilities, you'll have native life with special abilities.  (Exception: Heavy artillery is hardcoded to not work with psi except with spore launchers; there may be other abilities hardcoded not to work with psi either.  But those will usually not be that difficult to change.)