Can we come up with a better format for MP than PBEM?

[Yitzi]

It occurred to me: The problem with PBEM is that it takes so long that there's a good chance (especially with higher numbers of players) that someone will have to leave before the game finishes.  This is of course not good for the game, and the high length is probably not desirable either (SMAC/X is intended for one game to be played over a period of days or weeks, not months).  So this thread is for brainstorming ideas that might avoid that sort of length while still not causing too much trouble if players are in different time zones...

[Green1]

I think a lot of the problem is that the game was built with MP capabilities as an afterthought. But many titles of that age were. In 1999, broadband internet was available but uncommon. Even dail up was expensive per minute subscriptions!

There are bugs with MP such as faction graphics being switched around that require 3rd party deals like .iniswap to fix.

There is no pitboss deal. You must have a CMN. Nor is there any central server like most modern 4xs. For instance, if I wished and my tether did not block P2P, could get into a MP game of Age of Wonders 3 right now. Similarly for even the aging Civ 4 through gamespy.

This is also a game with some age. Yes, it does have cult classic status. And, I will give you that PC games have much longer lifespans than consoles. But, it's been 15 years!!! Even with companies like GOG pushing the better games of those time periods, you are not going to have the sheer user base of something like Civ 5.

[Yitzi]

I think a lot of the problem is that the game was built with MP capabilities as an afterthought. But many titles of that age were. In 1999, broadband internet was available but uncommon. Even dail up was expensive per minute subscriptions!

There are bugs with MP such as faction graphics being switched around that require 3rd party deals like .iniswap to fix.

There is no pitboss deal. You must have a CMN. Nor is there any central server like most modern 4xs. For instance, if I wished and my tether did not block P2P, could get into a MP game of Age of Wonders 3 right now. Similarly for even the aging Civ 4 through gamespy.

This is also a game with some age. Yes, it does have cult classic status. And, I will give you that PC games have much longer lifespans than consoles. But, it's been 15 years!!! Even with companies like GOG pushing the better games of those time periods, you are not going to have the sheer user base of something like Civ 5.

Some of those (e.g. the graphics bug) can probably be fixed by .exe modding. 

But a pitboss situation does seem like what I'm looking for...while it's likely to be too hard to be one of the top priorities, it may be possible for me to eventually work together with whoever runs the technical side of AC2 (IIRC that's sisko) to create pitboss capability for SMAC/X on AC2.  (And if anything's going to give our site a lot of traffic, that's probably it.)

[sisko]

But a pitboss situation does seem like what I'm looking for...while it's likely to be too hard to be one of the top priorities, it may be possible for me to eventually work together with whoever runs the technical side of AC2 (IIRC that's sisko) to create pitboss capability for SMAC/X on AC2.  (And if anything's going to give our site a lot of traffic, that's probably it.)

You'll have my full support for such a project.

[Green1]

I do think if you had something like pit boss, it would be better. I like human opponents in 4x occasionally, too. But when we are talking months and sometimes years... things happen. I myself have been through a lot of changes.

Though, it is much more possible I could free up several hours. I am sure most others could, too unless they are like my cousin who has a non-gamer wife who withholds sex or looks at him with disdain if he spends more than 30 minutes on a computer! Talking on vent and owning folks or getting owned while doing a long game could be fun and friends could be made as opposed to sterile PBEMs. The MMO crowd already spends that much time on games. It is like watching TV for them. A bit better on the brain cells, if you ask me.

I really wish we had the source of this game in a higher level programming language or there was some way to gain that from assembly. I am sure folks would jump in to help you. As old as this game is, I doubt anyone of the powers that be would care as long as you did not pack it with the art and try to sell it.

[Yitzi]

I do think if you had something like pit boss, it would be better. I like human opponents in 4x occasionally, too. But when we are talking months and sometimes years... things happen. I myself have been through a lot of changes.

Though, it is much more possible I could free up several hours. I am sure most others could, too unless they are like my cousin who has a non-gamer wife who withholds sex or looks at him with disdain if he spends more than 30 minutes on a computer! Talking on vent and owning folks or getting owned while doing a long game could be fun and friends could be made as opposed to sterile PBEMs. The MMO crowd already spends that much time on games. It is like watching TV for them. A bit better on the brain cells, if you ask me.

I really wish we had the source of this game in a higher level programming language or there was some way to gain that from assembly. I am sure folks would jump in to help you. As old as this game is, I doubt anyone of the powers that be would care as long as you did not pack it with the art and try to sell it.

Actually, as long as it's done by people who got it before it had a EULA prohibiting it, I don't think there would be a legal problem anyway.

The real issue is that getting a higher-level programming language from assembly for such a huge program is not feasible.  Fortunately, most of what's needed on the client-side (i.e. what would modify the game rather than create a new program for the server) could probably be borrowed from the existing TCP/IP coding, once I take the trouble to figure out how that works.

It would probably work similarly to play-over-IP, except that instead of having to stay in, the server at alphacentauri2 (or wherever) would keep a record of the game state and would transfer the job of hosting as required.  Which actually, as far as I can tell, is one better than Civ4's Pitboss, where there is a single pitboss (albeit distinct from the players) and if the host leaves or disconnects the game is unplayable until he returns (or lost completely if he didn't save).  (Admittedly, the server at alphacentauri2 would still need to serve the role of the pitboss, but unlike Civ4's pitboss I hope to be able to set it up so that the pitboss does not itself need to have a copy of the game and spend the computing power for each game active, allowing it to be viably run by the server itself.)

[Mart]

The way I understand the pitboss server is, that the advantage is making changes to the game in a turn forward, while awaiting the actual turn for making moves.
In pbem you cannot make valid changes, you can only view the state of your faction as it was at the end of turn when sending it to the next player.
The benefit is not that large.

What would significantly improve turn-rate is whole new mechanics of movement - simultaneous, where you issue only orders and all moves from all factions/players are resolved afterwards simultaneously by a server.
Stars! was like that IIRC. (So-called "excel in space" game, since it was made by the people who were making excel app for windows)
Such play comes with a price - you no longer control your units that well and cannot react to your own movements that well. But also, your opponents gain, because they are no longer "sitting ducks" waiting for their move turn.

But that is completely new game feel. SMACX would not be the same. I guess, for many people such change would not be a better way of playing.

SMACX TCP/IP has simultaneous turn mechanics, yet it is different, cause you actually can do moves yourself, and in both relations to an opponent: before or after him/her. It is very close to real-time, as I remember playing it.

[Yitzi]

The way I understand the pitboss server is, that the advantage is making changes to the game in a turn forward, while awaiting the actual turn for making moves.
In pbem you cannot make valid changes, you can only view the state of your faction as it was at the end of turn when sending it to the next player.
The benefit is not that large.

That's one benefit, and even so is limited by the fact that any changes that impact other players' actions (probably most of them) would have to wait in order to avoid "races".

The bigger benefit, I think, is that if you have a time when all the players are on together, they can take turns in quick succession TCP/IP or even hotseat style, as opposed to just checking every so often to see if the game's been posted.  The existence of a persistent game would also likely have a psychological effect encouraging people to take their turns sooner.

What would significantly improve turn-rate is whole new mechanics of movement - simultaneous, where you issue only orders and all moves from all factions/players are resolved afterwards simultaneously by a server.
Stars! was like that IIRC. (So-called "excel in space" game, since it was made by the people who were making excel app for windows)
Such play comes with a price - you no longer control your units that well and cannot react to your own movements that well. But also, your opponents gain, because they are no longer "sitting ducks" waiting for their move turn.

It would, as you say, be a very different play experience, and not one I would want to introduce to a game not designed for it.

[Mart]

Such TCP/IP play with not all players present at the same time might be a good solution.
Is this what you were thinking about?
So the server would run a turn with, let's say unlimited time, all players would need to hit "end turn" eventually, but movements would be served on the basis "first come, first served." It is not that different from changing faction order from time to time.
--------
And a thought here:
Maybe a server would run aliens-mindworms-planetlife faction? If in TCP/IP you need a server to control a faction, maybe that would be possible to do with little code modification?

[Yitzi]

Such TCP/IP play with not all players present at the same time might be a good solution.
Is this what you were thinking about?

Think so, though I'm not so clear on how TCP/IP works in the first place.

So the server would run a turn with, let's say unlimited time, all players would need to hit "end turn" eventually, but movements would be served on the basis "first come, first served." It is not that different from changing faction order from time to time.

No, that's not what I was thinking; you'd still get the possibilities of races and reverse-races.

--------
And a thought here:
Maybe a server would run aliens-mindworms-planetlife faction? If in TCP/IP you need a server to control a faction, maybe that would be possible to do with little code modification?

The only problem would be that that would require the server to have a copy of the game as opposed to just a dedicated but free server program.

[sisko]

The only problem would be that that would require the server to have a copy of the game as opposed to just a dedicated but free server program.

That's not really a problem since SMACx is so cheap nowdays.