Is there any reason to make sea units with armor?

[Question]

Assuming you do not have a massive tech advantage? Or need AAA cruisers to escort a carrier or something.

Sea units are much more expensive with armor but they get no terrain bonuses and since cruisers can move 6 (or 8 with the maritime project) it is very easy to rush over and take out even silksteel cruisers with missles cruisers.

[Nexii]

With default unit cost mode, all armored units aren't worth it.  I think ideally sea fungus should be moddable to give some defensive bonus like land.  But it's probably low priority for Yitzi, a new combat mechanic probably wouldn't be so easy for what it's worth.

[Question]

But if you dont use any armor units at all isnt it just a matter of whoever has the fastest units win because they can attack first?

[Nexii]

Yes, pretty much.  Which is why I play with a cost mode where unit cost = chassis factor only.  Reactor, weapon, armor, and abilities don't play into cost.  It's a bit extreme but with this costing system it's more a choice of chassis and abilities.  It also makes the weapon and armor techs much more crucial.  Avoiding them in favor of economic techs becomes very risky.

[Question]

That has the side effect of making everyone spam the fully armored rovers and air units though...

[Nexii]

Not if you cost faster chassis at higher price.  I use Infantry - 20, Rover - 30, Air - 40.  Then infantry is more efficient and very good for defense.  Arguably rovers could be fairly costed at 40 also.  It really depends what combat modifiers you tweak.  One big difference with 'free' armor is that units rarely win a battle with high hitpoints.  Counter attacks and sheer number of units become important also.

[Lord Avalon]

As I play SP on large-huge maps, I do put armor on many naval units. Synthmetal & plama don't provide a whole lot of protection, but they do turn a transport or probe ship into a combat unit, so trance is now useful. I don't usually put armor on basic sea formers, but I might on a few.

Silksteel is really the first armor that's worthwhile. When you get to fusion reactors, then I think having armor is more worth it. You may or may not be able to afford upgrading, but new units can get some armor for free. Like adding plasma to sea formers.

[Nexii]

Good points, I've noted this as well.  In my system I ended up weakening some abilities due to Cost:0 (Trance I'm trying at 25% lately).  I feel it might be an oversight that armored units count as combat units even if they have a non-combat weapon module.  Shouldn't the combat/non-combat flag be based on the weapon module alone?

[Lord Avalon]

Maybe, but then no-weapon ships are completely vulnerable to Isles of the Deep.

[Nexii]

50,      ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit {-32768 to 100}

This line in alphax.txt can fix that.  I do agree 50% is a pretty steep default.  You could put this to less, maybe 25% or 0%.  Sea is trickier than land since sensors don't work there.

[Yitzi]

With default unit cost mode, all armored units aren't worth it.

They can be if boosted by perimeter defense or the like, particularly if your defensive techs keep pace with offensive techs (hab complexes at silksteel would likely help a lot.)

But it's probably low priority for Yitzi, a new combat mechanic probably wouldn't be so easy for what it's worth.

Actually, new combat mechanics aren't that difficult unless they're really complicated, and some new combat mechanics are in fact on my list.

[Question]

Yea the problem is that out in the sea, you can have cruisers rush 6 hexes to hit you and all the enemy needs is a cheap spotter which can be a 1/1 foil or cruiser with deep radar or an air unit. Even a super expensive photon wall cruiser will lose to cheap missle cruisers and there are no terrain defence bonuses out on the sea.

Do people in MP just spam unarmored units all the time? Doesnt that result in lots of casaulties?

[Nexii]

The safe spot for naval units should be inside sea bases.  Naval yard gives +100% defense for sea vs sea.  Similar for land units w/Perimeters.

[Question]

Well yes but what about naval combat in the oceans?

[Nexii]

In the open the attacker will usually win.  Which I think is as it should be, otherwise you get really stalemated positions.  If you really want a more defensive combat system then you'd have to put weapon:armor ratios closer to 1:1.  I think that's also doable if you lessen some defensive modifiers.

Edit: You can also put AAA-air units on top of sea units in the open.