Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX

[ete]

As part of the SMAC in SMAX project we need to decide which factions to include by default. The original 7 are obviously in, but there's another two drop down menus available (#NEWFACTIONS and #CUSTOMFACTIONS) with 7-8 slots each (not sure if #NEWFACTIONS can support .

I'll list the things we could do with these, we'll debate and rank them, then figure out which plan has the most support. First off the main community faction sets which could be showcased

Dio's alternate original 7 (latest version on last page of topic)
Remake of original 7 with the aim of using each SMAC bonus/penalty exactly once
+Fits very well with SMAC flavor
+Original/based on early art scratch drawn bases/logos
?Factions have a very large number of bonuses/penalties each
?Mix of power levels, most reasonable but some extreme builders
-Less new playstyle diversity due to being similar to originals

JarlWolf's faction set (latest version in download?)
A set of 7 original factions
+Interesting bonus combinations
+Fun/extreme playstyles
+Lots of custom art
-/+Significantly stronger than normal factions (useful for making the game more of a challenge or giving yourself an advantage if you want it, but hard to mix fairly with normal factions)

Sigma's faction set (see wiki page&download for most recent versions)
A set of 7 original factions
+Original, but all very plausible/fitting and ideology based
+Generally well-balanced with original factions (one or two likely would benefit from a balance tweak, but most are very carefully balanced)
+Interesting playstyles with generally clean/short bonus lists
+Lots of custom art

ariete's are also an option, but they include alien factions which pure SMACers probably want to steer clear of. Similarly SMACified versions of Kilka's Poke factions would be cool, but I'm guessing more players would like one of the above sets (and iirc they would need SMACifying still). Building something out of the assorted one off factions people have made is also an option, but since we've got an abundance of quality cohesive sets it's probably best to go with sets.

There's also several faction sets heavily based on the original seven: Alternate official factions with name/graphics swap,  Genderswap both by BU which have the same bonuses and penalties but can be allow multiples of the same faction to fit into the same game more smoothly, and a pack which has aquatic set to on so each starts in the sea by Geo.
 
So, thoughts on which faction sets we should bundle? We've got three menus, one is going to be normal 7, which leaves two gaps. We don't need to fill both and whichever is not selected will still be playable with simple alphax changes, and having the SMAX set in default still an option if people want.


Maybe rank your preferences? Available sets:
Blank set
SMAX 7
Dio's
JarlWolf's
Sigma's
ariete's
Kilka's
Genderswapped original 7 (BU)
Name/graphics changed original 7 clones (BU)
Aquaticized original 7 (Geo)
7 Network Node factions
7 massively overpowered factions (Annihilators, Exterminus, Overmind, etc)
Other (please specify)

[ete]

Currently, I'm thinking something like:
1. Sigma's
2. JarlWolf's
3. Dio's
3. Aquaticized original 7
5. Kilka's
5. ariete's
7. 7 Network Node factions
8. 7 massively overpowered factions (Annihilators, Exterminus, Overmind, etc)
9. SMAX 7
10. Genderswapped original 7
11. Namechanged original 7 clones
12. Blank set

Sigma's and Jarl's are both awesome original sets of factions which are fairly well polished. Sigma's is my top choice because I do love balance, but Jarl's is still really cool and a great way to give yourself worthy opponents. I'd also be happy with Dio's, it's mostly not making my top two because the playstyles overlap a lot with the defaults so it adds less diversity to the game than other options (plus the unavoidable faction bloat which comes from using every option at least once in seven factions), but perhaps for most people fitting well with original feel is the top priority and that's fair.

Aquatic is /really fun/ and I wish I could have this higher, but the other faction sets are probably more important. Kilka's are not afaik all available in a SMAC ready format, and while they're cool, I'm guessing people into pure SMAC flavor would prefer more standard factions. ariete's seem less polished than my top choices and include aliens, but are still options. NN pack has potential, there are enough factions with really interesting ideas for it to work, but they need some revising and I'm not going to be around enough to do that properly in the near future. SMAX is what they SMACers mostly want to avoid, and Blank set or clones is just a missed opportunity imo.

[Buster's Uncle]

The aquaticized original 7 set is by Geo, if we're thinking of the same thing.

Also, you're rigging the contest. 

[ete]

Could well be, but Aquaticized more clearly convey's the purpose of the set. Similarly I used genderswapped/namechanged for your alternate clones of the original seven rather than your name, because it conveys the purpose of the set effectively. Credit would of course be given if they're chosen, but having clear useful names for this poll seems reasonable.

withdrawn response to rigging before there was a :p in the above post, when it seemed a lot more serious

(click to show/hide)

I wrote a more detailed review of only three because those seemed most likely to get picked, and writing up a detailed pro/cons list for everything would be a significant amount of effort. If you or someone else feels like writing up things for other faction sets I would be more than happy to edit them in. I did make a summary of every plausible faction set we could use, I'm being inclusive but just not spending hours writing up each one.

I'll also be more than happy to edit in pros/cons that I have missed from the existing lists, or correct mistakes.

If you're referring to me posting my opinions, I did not use the opening post for that and tried to be as fair and objective as could be reasonably expected in the OP. I intentionally put the lists (both detailed and the extremely inclusive one at the bottom) in an order other than my preference to _avoid_ overly coloring the debate. I also don't intend to be the guy who makes a call on which should be selected unless there's strong consensus. The people working on the patch can pick, but the debate in this thread should inform their decision.

I think your accusation of rigging the poll is impolite given that you did not specify exactly what did wrong or I could have done better, and given that I took several measures specifically to avoid unduly influencing the poll (and am entirely willing to take more if presented with sound reasons for taking them).

[Buster's Uncle]

I think rigging the poll is impolite.  I'm not accusing you of malice or even doing it on purpose, but it's incredibly easy to tell which options you think less of - no credit, no details, no links, stuck at the bottom like an afterthought.  C'mon man; I'm not imagining this, and you can do better.

[Buster's Uncle]

Also, I'm sick and grumpy today, so please don't take it too much to heart.  I'm just sayin' and I'm not mad.

[JarlWolf]

Given im included in this I can't really vote; but I agree with your top two choices and Sigma's is much more complete then mine.

The Wanderers of Chiron still need to be polished up but their basic concept is there; and to be quite frank Sigma has a similar faction that in my eyes is close to what I envisioned the Wanderer's to be in some regards.

In my eyes I see Sigma's factions very cohesive with my own; they both can fit into each other's lore and are very lore friendly in my eyes, or at least lore fitting.

I based my factions off of a more progressed futuristic story of the SMAC/X timeline; and Sigma's I believe was definitely similar to that as well.

[ete]

@BU: I've added a paragraph about the modified original 7 packs and credited it, plus added some links. You're not imagining that I put more effort into discussing/analysing the ones I thought were moderately likely to win and actually needed more than a line of explanation to understand, but that was simply a choice of directing my energy to where it seemed most productive, not an attempt to influence the poll unduly. I should have included links at least, that's a useful and actionable suggestion, and the extra paragraph would have been better to include from the start, but believe me when I say I was not attempting to rig the poll (note that my equal third favorite had no link or explanation because I doubt it'll win and the name sums up what it does). Hopefully with the changes made it's at least a bit more to your liking?

@JarlWolf: You're welcome to give your opinions/list despite being in this (same goes for Dio, Sigma, ariete and all the faction pack makers). It's not a straight vote, just a discussion with some preference ranking to make it easier to skim over people's opinions.

[Nexii]

I'd say blank set and make a guide / easier way to swap them in or out, if possible.  I know some things are being worked on regarding this.

[ete]

It's pretty straightforward to swap factions around in SMAX, but having a handy list next to #CUSTOMFACTIONS would be nice. Bear in mind that even if we include a bunch of defaults in #CUSTOMFACTIONS you only need to swap out the defaults for whatever other customs you want, including some bundled factions does not in any way remove the option of using others.

[Buster's Uncle]

On reflection, I wonder if the alt. gender versions might have more appeal than the splinter clones.  Of course, I would want that selection of Monster factions for tough opponents.  As I posted recently, we need someone to collect and post a set of monsters to Downloads.

But the only opinions that really count, I think, are those of the X non-fans at/for whom the project is intended.

In the end, of course, it's all really easy to fix in the alphax.txt anyway, should the decision of the team not be to the user's liking.  We might ought to consider including the lot with the mod, along with FACTION README instructions for changing the #NEW FACTIONS and #CUSTOM FACTIONS lineups...

[Ninja'd.  Great minds think alike.]

[JarlWolf]

If we are going to make a bundled faction pack, I think it should include the following:

Mine and Sigma's, the Monsters, some of Ariete's and some of Kilkakon's in its raw form (To promote both their packs, if people like their work they can add more with specific expansion packs,downloads) and the alternates of the original factions.

The original alternates are very well crafted and with Sigma's, the Monster pack and my pack with handpicked ones of Ariete's and Kilkakon's, I think that would be sufficient. Pick the most unique or balanced of Ariete's and maybe 2 or 3 of Kilkakon's just to show some samples.

[Buster's Uncle]

Kil's would need adjusting for compatibility; he made them to go with his extensive modding.  There is already a compatible version of the Realm of Light faction that he made for the GotM.

PG versions of his?

[ete]

I'm thinking it'd probably be best to keep the download size down for any the factions which come bundled with SMAC in SMAX, faction packs can be fairly big. I'd like small default autoincluded pack to give people a taster of the best customs, then a large download with a much wider selection for people who liked the first taste. If we include Jarl's, Sigma's, ariete's, Dio's, Kilka's, and a bunch of monsters by default that's 42 factions, and that's if we don't put any of BU's or the aquatics in (with them it's getting on for 70). That's a huge download, and I think it should be kept separate from the basic patch (especially considering this forum's download system tends to break/be very unreliable for files that big). It should exist, but imo be an optional extra.

[Buster's Uncle]

That sounds right; agreed.