Building a Community

[Buster's Uncle]

I have yet to obtain a response from my co-owner.  Basically, my tech support guys hate the idea but would help implement, and if sisko ever speaks up, I have to think he'll say yes - reluctantly.  We both hate ads, but we're also both tight with a penny.

Some options about hosting are under discussion, so the question could end up being moot, anyway.

[Vishniac]

we'll take donations over my. dead. body.  It may not be rational, but I don't care.  Not going to happen here, no matter the safeguards/anonymity/dependability of money, and I'd rather not hear about it again.

Besides, I cannot imagine how the dependability could possibly be fixed.  Not.  Interested.  -Period.

You'll excuse me for not being privy to all the subtleties of the internet, the law and the donations but...what if someone just send the money to you and you use it for the forum?
Nothing official.

If we are going to get ads, I want them to be like that:

Rob Maness TV Ad - Gator

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Man, I'm just not reasonable on the subject and don't want your money. 

Aeson at 'poly -a member here and a friend I talk some owner shop with- counsels me, BTW, that I could have the ads display for no one but lurkers, which is where the bulk of the hits come from anyway - so no downside for members, if we can rig it that way.

[Geo]

Aeson at 'poly -a member here and a friend I talk some owner shop with- counsels me, BTW, that I could have the ads display for no one but lurkers, which is where the bulk of the hits come from anyway - so no downside for members, if we can rig it that way.

A handmade/kept list of who isn't privy to ads? Quite a stick behind the door for those ignoring "hat on" remarks.

[ete]

ah, I see where your reluctance comes from then. Still, looked at objectively it seems to be a good option, with "justice for sale" not working if the guys being donated to don't accept it, which I trust you two won't.

Ads are ugly in more ways than just the visual. Specifically, it's easy for a site to stagnate if the owners start making a consistent profit from it, because they have no/much less incentive to pass leadership on once they move onto new projects, and on a healthy forum the users will keep making useful content to draw people in indefinitely. That's something I have long and painful experience of and would greatly prefer not to happen to AC2.

I would be more comfortable with ads if:
1. finances were made public, at least to staff
2. at minimum a significant majority of any profits after paying back past/current hosting costs, was earmarked for a fund to be used for AC2-projects (e.g. prizes for GOTM winners, upgrading the server, having an emergency fund)
3. advertising was used at a minimal level to support necessary hosting and other costs, rather than going for maximum profit.

[Buster's Uncle]

Let me think it over before I respond in full - I have no problem with sharing the numbers with the staff.  Staff is trusted or they wouldn't be staff.

A handmade/kept list of who isn't privy to ads? Quite a stick behind the door for those ignoring "hat on" remarks.

Ad display as punishment?  That's a funny idea I'll think about.

[Buster's Uncle]

A few related thoughts not intended as an answer in full:

I'm for maximum transparency, you're for maximum transparency, everyone's for it.  There's stuff best not discussed in public -people, mostly, but you know there's little of that in the Staff Room (because we've got a genuinely good crowd and don't need it; the closest we've got to a troublemaker around is, IMO, harmless and on our side).  I like to discuss recruiting in public to encourage members to engage in recruiting (though there is plenty of that in there, mostly because you can discuss it in public too much and turn people off - also, sometimes details of this promotion or that outreach are pretty boring to anyone not devoted to the promotion or outreach).

We already have pretty close to maximum transparency, witness the Rules thread, for example, where I thought Yitzi's detail-oriented nature was perfect to chair member-sourcing the rules, which are for you guys - I don't need 'em if you don't, and folks seem happy with how AC2 is run and they are treated.

And this - I'm not comfortable talking about my money to anyone.  Southern cultural thing, I guess.  I'm bending on that, but let's not get carried away about talking about my money, and the numbers thereof, ok?  I know I raised the issue here repeatedly, but it's presuming, by my standards, to enquire into specifics on something I'd rather be private about in public.  I've told people with a need to know privately, and having my druthers respected in this would be nice. 

There's going to be similar feelings involved when I've thought out what I think about distribution of potential future profits.  Those ideas have merit, but they're in conflict with the fact that I've poured two years+ of my life into this place and backed my devotion up with my own scant funds since last year.  If I manage to make this imaginary profit, no one has any right to tell me not to put my half in my pocket and keep it, or think less of me for it.  I've earned that imaginary future money, for real - look at my accumulated total hours logged in.  (Logged in: 390d 10h 40m at this writing.) I'd be inclined to share the bounty with deserving staff out of a sense of fairness, but that turns into mighty small pieces of a pie terribly unlikely to be worth splitting, and with no one spending a fraction worth mentioning of the time I do.  That's my money you presume to give away for me, ete - you should be happy with the idea of me and sisko maybe ending up getting something (besides the company of my many friends here, which is what I'm in this for in the first place) back for our selfless efforts to make this place for everyone.

I'm here to stay, and don't have any prospects of a life developing to take me away, and little drama of note in two years + here.  If this turned into a business -which I have trouble imagining, but play along- I'd definitely be inclined to roll early profits back into the enterprise with an eye towards making more profits - server capacity and all that, super file hosting, try to make the pie big enough to be worth dividing among the staff with a pay schedule that motivated them to be here working and making the place better, to draw more traffic and make me more money.  Greed would still motivate me to do right by everyone - that's the way I think.

I do love the idea about diverting some into prizes, though (not in the greedy mode now).  sisko loves to run contests when he has the time - what the heck; we're never going to make serious money doing this, and it might give those contests a serious kick.  Pray for that.

I'm still thinking it over...

[ete]

I hope you bear in mind two things when reading and replying:
1. My highest priority is to make AC2 as good a host and nurturing ground for useful content as possible.
2. I have spent literally years working on and around sites with frustrating and poor leadership, specifically because the leaders had an incentive to stay in the top job and collect the $ rather than passing over the controls and access to people who would improve the site, which resulted in inordinate wasted contributor-time due to poorly maintained systems and politics.

You've got a handful of things which are raw nerves for you and you ask people to respect, this is one of mine.

That's my money you presume to give away for me, ete - you should be happy with the idea of me and sisko maybe ending up getting something (besides the company of my many friends here, which is what I'm in this for in the first place) back for our selfless efforts to make this place for everyone.

I'm sorry, but I have a different philosophy on this and cannot agree. You have spent by far the most time on here, and sisko's contributed a significant amount of technical effort setting this place up, but the reason those pageviews happen is not primarily you two. You are necessary, but not sufficient. The contributors to a site produce far more useful content than the leaders, and while leadership is hard (I've founded and run projects bigger than AC2, and been involved as staff in ones which dwarf it), it's also rewarding and satisfying.

As sisko's profile says "This place is yours, not mine.". I like that. I like that a lot. The owners of a site which is popular on the backs of its users should, in my opinion, not consider income generated by that site their by default, and only given away for future profits, or for charity. The money should by default be considered the community's, and only given directly to owners if that seems like an appropriate and agreed upon investment for part of the community's income.

I am not saying no site community owner should make any money. I am saying in my experience they have a frequently neglected a moral duty to not try and maximize their own income at the expense of the community, and that transparency of accounts is one of the few things which will hold an owner to account if they're profiting without pumping a large portion of the revenue the community generates back into the community. Your discomfort with talking about money is not something I am ignoring, but sunlight disinfects.

For the record, if AC2 does end up in a position where there are funds which need sharing out, my vote will go to sending sending all the non-essentials to you and sisko until you've been payed back for hosting costs, and even once that's repayed a significant portion going to you two if you're still active. Having profits assumed as yours and numbers not disclosed is a very different situation from the community giving back to you for your activity in my mind.

I am saying I am uncomfortable with how things could go and the incentives placed on you. Pushing as hard for recruiting and building as you do when you just love the community is one thing, pushing hard for recruiting and working harder if you're making money of of other people's work feels much more questionable to me.

I'm going to post the plans which you seemed to be fairly positive about and encouraged me to share with others that we discussed earlier in the staff forum, and ask sisko and others to look over them. I'll post at least a summary of them in public within the next few days. It's long term, so if you've had enough of paying for the server for now, I offer to take over your contribution to running the site in full, with nothing changing in terms of your or my position in the staff. I care about getting this right and am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

[Buster's Uncle]

I hear you and do not disagree - my last was one side of my head talking, not my complete opinion, which is going to take time to sort out.

I don't want your money, and I am going to take severe offense if people keep offering.

And man oh man, I am nothing but raw nerves - I fly into a rage IRL when my coffee spoon isn't where I left it in the morning.  I'm proud of how well I succeed in suppressing those impulses online, but that I'm that way can't come as a shock.

However, I'm in this for the community and the people - I never thought I might make money.  I don't hate the idea of that happening, but I'd never considered it until recently.  This is a genuinely altruistic scam to get me people to enjoy talking to enterprise.

[Buster's Uncle]

-And furthermore, I want to point out that you'd be getting a much better reaction if you were asking instead of demanding.  I'm getting frustrated here.  I do that when people don't back off when I point out a button.  Most people do.  Try to meet me halfway, like I'm trying with you.

Please?

[ete]

I am trying to explain, ask, and convince, not demand. If that's not how it's coming across, I apologise, but "demand things" is not what I'm going for here.

[Buster's Uncle]

Okydoke.  I'm feeling pushed, and it's a challenge to suppress nastiness when I feel defensive.

[Valka]

Ete, BUncle isn't the only admin of a Civ-related site who has stated flat-out that he doesn't want to accept donations. Thunderfall has said this as well, over at CivFanatics.

I'm sure BUncle would be inclined to listen to politely-worded suggestions, but it's rude to push against the boundaries he's set. He said he won't accept donations. It's up to the rest of us to respect his wishes and not argue about it.

[Aeson]

My 2 cents...

- donations are unreliable ... look at Wikipedia ... they have to run ads begging for donations many years just to cover costs, and they have more public goodwill than most sites. Their traffic is worth several hundreds of millions of dollars, with their costs in the teens of millions.

- donations introduce a form of leverage that specific posters will have over the entire site. It can lead to decisions being made in order to fund the site, rather than in order to improve it. Especially problematic for smaller communities where a single donor might be the main contributor (and thus have to be catered to if the site will survive).

- profits from ads allow sites to be improved. Contests and giveaways, professional services, better hosting, and even advertising to draw in new visitors. Those are things profitable sites can do. (Or do more of in cases where someone is already doing so while taking losses.)

- ads are pretty easy to target. You can show them just to search engine traffic for instance. Search engine traffic usually being the most lucrative anyways. People who come back day after day and see the same ads day after day will go ad blind. They know where the ads are subconsciously and just skip them.

- ads can be used as a promotional tool to drum up activity. You can set achievement levels where ads won't be shown anymore.

- for those who really don't like ads, ad blockers exist.

- the worry about profit demotivating ownership is almost always going to be backwards. Profit motivates owners to improve their sites. Because online if you aren't actively improving your site, your profits are diminishing. There's always someone else out there working diligently to get your customers/members.

There's really no downside to ads.

[Buster's Uncle]

Welcome newb - behave or be destroyed.

(  Aeson is my buddy who took over ownership of Apolyton about the beginning of the year, and I think he's going to turn the place around - please get in the habit of checking by 'poly AC regularly and see if you feel like commenting.  He's been very supportive of cross-site promotions I've done there, and we'll profit from growing the Greater SMACX Community by encouraging the health of his AC section.  Forums are not like girlfriends - you can have more than one.)

(Aeson makes his living off running internet gaming sites, and I've watched him treating people right at 'poly anyway, and he knows what he's talking about. -Also, he signed up here because he's gotten SMACX in the BE news wake, like a lot of people.  He's one of us, now.  -And really a newb.)