SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[bvanevery]

People talk about research paths as if they want to give one player all weapons and another all facilities.

This is inherent to the game having different victory conditions.  There's supposed to be a faction that can sit back and Transcend.  There's supposed to be one that can sit back and make money.  There's supposed to be one that can sit back and grow population to the nines.  The AI has trouble with some of these things in practice, and could stand improvement of its code.  The human player still has all these choices though, and does not have to play Conquest Victory every single game.

[bvanevery]

Designing a tech tree is really hard with your requirement that each tech is prerequisite for one tech in the next tier and one in the tier after that. Each tier of techs has a one-to-one relation to 4 other tiers. That is amazingly restrictive.

I doubt there's any actual problem.  A game designer simply has to do the work.  My regime is 2 techs on Tier N, are prereqs for 1 tech on Tier N+1.  All techs must be completed in my tree to Transcend.  There are no dead ends.  Yes, if I decide a tech has to be moved somewhere else, I end up having to move a bunch of techs around to accommodate that.  It's work.  But it's not "amazingly" restrictive, I do the work as a game designer just fine.  After 2 years of this drill, I'm of course rather good at it.  It may look intimidating to someone who hasn't committed to such a rigid design premise, but it isn't rocket science impossible stuff.  I think of it as "playing Tetris" with the techs.

I've kept a CHANGELOG of every such shuffle I've made for 2 years.  Except I usually don't detail dependency changes, only the Tier movements.  You'd have to run a diff tool to see dependency changes, if you cared.  Rarely will anyone care.  Even if they do, it's too much work to talk about dependency changes in a CHANGELOG.  Detailing the Tier movements is enough documentation.

So if you want to get an idea exactly how much mental work is involved, the record is all there.  It's doable; I did it.  I proved it can be done, at X amount of development cost over time.

I wouldn't design a brand new game from scratch with this kind of tech + narrative regime.  It does impose a substantial production burden that I'd rather not be paying the time cost of.  How to completely reconceptualize tech advancement, in a way that more easily fits with narrative development and changes, is an exercise for another time.  This game has to be done something like this way.

[bvanevery]

defense is discover,

Wat?  That's a completely arbitrary decision.  Discover is about increasing your LABS output.  I don't get why scientists would be the only ones interested in defense.

I could see Conquer primarily being concerned with offense.  And all the other 3 categories being sprinkled with their own various defenses.  The stock game sorta did this anyways.  It's the sprinkling of offense in the stock game that greatly offended me, not so much the sprinkling of defense.

Whether sprinkling around defense would be a good idea in the real world, would be a matter of design and testing.  In my own mod, I simply evolved towards offense having very limited capability over defense.  I've got Sensor Arrays giving +50% defense bonus, not +25%.  I don't give a +25% attack bonus on bases to infantry.  I don't give ships any kind of "in port" defense penalty.  Sometimes that's made ships into super-defenders.  However it hasn't been enough of a problem when the AI does it, for me to revisit it yet.  If a playtester actually complained, maybe I'd act on it.  Gotta leave a few "rough edges" to do for some minor monthly release in the future.   

Seriously, it's important to have a long term advertizing campaign where releases are regular.  "Monthly" seems to be the quickest non-burdensome doesn't cause people to gnash teeth schema on Reddit.  Any more than that and they'll turn against you as a shameless self-promoter / spammer / community non-participant / drive-by guy.

The point of release cycles and advertizement, is so for all this game design effort you do, someone actually plays it.  Otherwise, what's the point?  I could put this much effort into perfecting a personal painting or sculpture maybe, as I'd have the physical object afterwards, to admire myself.  But I can't sit around admiring my version of SMAC so easily.  In fact, after 2 years quite the opposite.  Always at risk of being completely burned out!

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

This is of course my mod, since forever, since the very beginning.  In 2 years you really haven't checked it out in any great detail?  The differentiation between paths has only gotten stronger in the past year.

I looked at it but didn't study. Can you tell me some of your paths besides weapon and armor?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I think it is enough of preliminary discussing. Here is what I plan to do.

Currently I stick to paradigm when each tech has one major feature from vanilla that is mentally best associated with it. Other features can be reassigned arbitrarily to deal with conflicting priorities when features from same vanilla tech need to be placed in different levels. It seems that even having just a single feature association doesn't let building tree at will. So I like to review my primary associations and leave only those making perfect bond like Air Power and Needlejet. Thus releasing bunch of other tech and making them absolutely free of any locking for ease of manipulation.

Step 2.
Rename some techs for better sense. Like Centauri Ecology to Basic Terraforming.

Step 3.
Rearrange free techs in tree for aesthetic.

Step 4.
Reassign features back to techs to keep their place in history.


Here is the current list of all primary (hard) association those I don't break no matter what. This list is about to be substantially reduced. Feel free to vote.

type   feature   a   d   technolgy
1 unit types   Foil chassis
Troop transport, Pressure dome         Doctrine: Flexibility
1 unit types   Speeder chassis         Doctrine: Mobility
3 terraforming   basic terraforming, Terraform unit, restrictions lifted         Centauri Ecology
4b facility - drones   Recreation commons         Social Psych
4d facility - energy   Biology lab         Progenitor Psych
7 weapon   Laser   1      Applied Physics
8 armor   Synthmetal armor      1   Industrial Base
1 unit types   Heavy artillery         Polymorphic Software
2 ability   Hypnotic trance         Secrets of the Human Brain
4a facility - military   Perimeter defense         Doctrine: Loyalty
4b facility - drones   Hologram theatre         Polymorphic Software
4c facility - misc   Recycling tanks         Biogenetics
4c facility - misc   Children's creche         Ethical Calculus
7 weapon   Particle impactor   2      Nonlinear Mathematics
8 armor   Plasma steel armor      2   High Energy Chemistry
1 unit types   Mind Worms         Centauri Empathy
4d facility - energy   Network node         Information Networks
4d facility - energy   Energy bank         Industrial Economics
7 weapon   Gatling Laser   3      Superconductor
8 armor   Silksteel armor      3   Silksteel Alloys
1 unit types   Spore Launcher         Bioadaptive Resonance
4a facility - military   Naval Yard         Doctrine: Initiative
4j facility - size limit   Hab complex         Industrial Automation
5 reactor   Fusion Reactor         Fusion Power
6 secret project   The Virtual World         Planetary Networks
7 weapon   Missile launcher   4      Synthetic Fossil Fuels
8 armor   Photon wall      4   Photon/Wave Mechanics
1 unit types   AAA Tracking         Advanced Military Algorithms
1 unit types   Sealurk         Centauri Psi
3 terraforming   Thermocline transducer         Adaptive Economics
4e facility - ecodamage   Tree farm         Environmental Economics
6 secret project   The Planetary Datalinks         Cyberethics
7 weapon   Chaos gun   5      Superstring Theory
8 armor   Probability sheath      5   Probability Mechanics
3 terraforming   advanced terraforming         Ecological Engineering
4d facility - energy   Research hospital         Gene Splicing
4e facility - ecodamage   Centauri preserve         Centauri Meditation
4f facility - minerals   Genejack factory         Retroviral Engineering
6 secret project   The Citizens' Defense Force         Intellectual Integrity
6 secret project   The Supercollider         Applied Relativity
7 weapon   Fusion laser   6      Organic Superlubricant
1 unit types   Needlejet chassis, Air base         Doctrine: Air Power
4e facility - ecodamage   Hybrid forest         Planetary Economics
4j facility - size limit   Habitation dome         Super Tensile Solids
5 reactor   Quantum Chamber         Quantum Power
7 weapon   Tachyon bolt   7      Unified Field Theory
8 armor   Neutronium armor      6   Matter Compression
9 social enginering 42   Eudaimonic         Eudaimonia
1 unit types   Hovertank chassis         Nanominiaturization
2 ability   Marine detachment         Adaptive Doctrine
2 ability   Carrier deck         Nanometallurgy
3 terraforming   Mag tube         Monopole Magnets
4f facility - minerals   Robotic assembly plant         Industrial Nanorobotics
4h facility - prototypes   Skunkworks         Advanced Subatomic Theory
6 secret project   The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm         Pre-Sentient Algorithms
1 unit types   Copter chassis         Mind/Machine Interface
2 ability   Clean reactor         Bio-Engineering
4b facility - drones   Brood pit         Secrets of Alpha Centauri
4d facility - energy   Nanohospital         Homo Superior
4e facility - ecodamage   Temple of Planet         Secrets of Alpha Centauri
7 weapon   Quantum laser   9      Quantum Machinery
8 armor   Antimatter plate      7   Matter Editation
1 unit types   Locusts of Chiron         Centauri Genetics
4a facility - military   Bioenhancement center         Neural Grafting
4a facility - military   Flechette defense system         N-Space Compression
5 reactor   Singularity Engine         Singularity Mechanics
6 secret project   The Dream Twister         The Will to Power
7 weapon   Graviton gun   10      Applied Gravitonics
1 unit types   Gravship chassis         Graviton Theory
4b facility - drones   Paradise garden         Sentient Econometrics
4g facility - space station   Sky hydroponics lab         Orbital Spaceflight
4i facility - movement   Psi gate         Matter Transmission
7 weapon   Singularity laser   11      Controlled Singularity
8 armor   Stasis generator      8   Temporal Mechanics
4g facility - space station   Orbital power transmitter         Advanced Spaceflight
6 secret project   The Network Backbone         Digital Sentience
6 secret project   The Self-Aware Colony         Self-Aware Machines
7 weapon   String disruptor   12      String Resonance
4c facility - misc   Subspace Generator         Secrets of the Manifolds
6 secret project   The Cloning Vats         Biomachinery
6 secret project   The Voice of Planet, The Ascent to Transcendence         Threshold of Transcendence
            Transcendent Thought

[Hagen0]

Your associations are mostly fine. What I don't like about the tech tree is the sequencing.

Weapon and armor techs are clustered too much in the early game. The consequence is that you have something advanced like Probability Mechanics too early in the tech tree. They could also gain from being spread out a bit. The initial place of Synthetic Fossil Fuels among the green techs (maybe after Gene Splicing like in vanilla tech tree) was better. I would add an requirement to a high level conquer tech so that you can't skip the previous weapon techs that way.

The other flavour problem is that you stacked many problematic techs into the endgame where they also don't fit narratively. Orbital Spaceflight is not such a high level concept for example. If satellites should remain out of consideration they could be assigned to some late game tech instead.

You mentioned that these things were discussed.Can you link a thread? I am curious why Bio-Engineering and Non-Lethal methods are so late among other things.

Since there are armor techs missing in the midgame it would be possible to make Photon/Wave mechanic armor 6 strength, push Probability Mechanics back and make the corresponding armor 8 or 9 strength. Neutronium Plate could be 12. That also comes too early narravitely atm.

[bvanevery]

I looked at it but didn't study. Can you tell me some of your paths besides weapon and armor?

For instance nowadays there's a pretty strongly differentiated "indigenous life forms only combat" section of the tree.  If you're not studying Explore, you're not getting up it.  It's long.  It goes all the way from E3 Centauri Genetics to E8 The Will To Power.  Then continues with D9 Secrets of Alpha Centauri and D10 Secrets of the Manifolds.

Some of the Conquer sections of the tree are on their own "isolated eddies" to make it only rewarding for a pure Conquer researcher.  Like the C7 Mind/Machine Interface, C8 Self-Aware Machines sequence.  This is possible because there are so many Conquer techs.  The main trunk of Conquer, where you now get your Planet Busters, is now more pure lately.

[lolada]

My observation about armor and weapons:

Looks like progression is really quick up to level 2-3-4-5-6.. then it stalls a bit. 8 comes later and 10 a bit behind .. armor seem to go quick 2-3-4.. then some pause and 5-6- thats for awhile but not much and then comes armor 10 (neutronium). Bulk of war happens to be at armor 10.. weapons go up to 13 - 16 and quite later 20? 24 vs armor10.. when finally comes armor 16 which is really strong..

Its my observation from few games.. just feeling nothing exact. Feels to me i never build any weapons at lvl2-3.. then if i get in war build 2-3 units of level 4 and before real fighting begines.. its at 5 or 6 weapons.. and armor is 3-4.. Then depending on RNG one can get armors very quickly i had siutation with weapon 6 armor 6 for quite some time. Equality is intended i get it - but it feels like due to trading and transcend these techs and weapons get researched very quickly.

Early weapons look like they could be spaced more - or maybe 1-2 removed but its not necessary in any case.. spacing a bit would work.. armor the same. Then one could add maybe armor 12 to fill the gap a bit.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Weapon and armor techs are clustered too much in the early game. The consequence is that you have something advanced like Probability Mechanics too early in the tech tree.

What's the problem with Probability Mechanics? Did it really appear too early in your games? If so just let me know and I'll move it couple levels up.

Orbital Spaceflight is not such a high level concept for example. If satellites should remain out of consideration they could be assigned to some late game tech instead.

What level do you like Orbital Spaceflight to be?

You mentioned that these things were discussed.Can you link a thread? I am curious why Bio-Engineering and Non-Lethal methods are so late among other things.

Check all topics I've started. They are all about different problems regarding this mod.

Bio-Engineering is a tech - a placeholder for features. It really doesn't matter where it is in the tree except aesthetically looking tree that it. Non-Lethal methods double police power for zero maintenance. It's an incredible ability. There is no counter or price to pay to compensate it. That is why it is late in the tree.

Since there are armor techs missing in the midgame it would be possible to make Photon/Wave mechanic armor 6 strength, push Probability Mechanics back and make the corresponding armor 8 or 9 strength. Neutronium Plate could be 12. That also comes too early narravitely atm.

armor techs missing in the midgame??? 😲
Are you talking about WtP?

I didn't understand how you propose to reshuffle them. Can you just list them names-levels?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Early weapons look like they could be spaced more - or maybe 1-2 removed but its not necessary in any case.. spacing a bit would work.. armor the same. Then one could add maybe armor 12 to fill the gap a bit.

There are 12 weapons and 8 armors. Weapon will always change little bit faster. Yes, we can drop 4 weapons and space them more even. I personally don't see problem in having them in the game. You don't need to use each and every.

[Nexii]

You could make some armors prereqs for weapons and vice versa. That might solve the "armor too far ahead" or "weapon too far ahead" problems

[bvanevery]

So here's a lot of food for thought.

4d facility - energy   Biology lab         Progenitor Psych

I don't buy this one at all.  Xenobiology is not the Alien's story.  It's Deirdre's.  I can understand using it here if you wish, but to declare it an ironclad hard association, that's just wrong.  Doesn't fit with the game's lore.

Myself, I've ended up assigning this to Biogenetics.  It's biology.  However, I've also at times used Biogenetics as my Police State technology.  It has a relevant quote / voice acting from Chairman Yang.  "We hold life to be sacred..."  Over time, using Biogenetics as my Discover 1 tech with a Biology Lab, won out.

2 ability   Hypnotic trance         Secrets of the Human Brain

It's of course not wrong to do that, but there are other places you could do it.  I've done it in Progenitor Psych and Centauri Empathy.  Currently I've welded the Virtual World to Secrets in the Human Brain.  I think that's a good lore fit.  I've done the Virtual World elsewhere though, like Optical Computers.

4a facility - military   Perimeter defense         Doctrine: Loyalty

This is one of those cases of "familiarity with the stock game".  There's no inherent relationship between between loyalty and a defensive wall.  One could imagine a relationship, such as keeping people inside, but that's not really what a Perimeter Defense implies.  I decided a Perimeter Defense is a kind of armor, for cities, and gave it at the same time as I give Plasma armor.

4b facility - drones   Hologram theatre         Polymorphic Software

I don't see any inherent relationship between these ideas at all.

4c facility - misc   Children's creche         Ethical Calculus

Another "familiarity with the stock game", not inherent.

1 unit types   Mind Worms         Centauri Empathy

Not wrong, but I repurposed Centauri Genetics from later on.

1 unit types   Spore Launcher         Bioadaptive Resonance

I guess you don't have 3-Res armor.  I do, so I just gave Spore Launcher at the same time as mindworm.  I don't see a good reason to give them out in different techs.

4j facility - size limit   Hab complex         Industrial Automation

This is stock game familiarity, and not inherent.

6 secret project   The Virtual World         Planetary Networks

A reasonable idea, and I've probably done it.  However, I use this for probe teams and Police State.  Chairman Yang is watching you!

1 unit types   AAA Tracking         Advanced Military Algorithms

I put it in Doctrine: Air Power.  I don't believe that anyone should get "a chance" to prepare for Needlejets.  That chassis is substantially more expensive in my mod anyways.  The AI doesn't send them out like flies.

3 terraforming   Thermocline transducer         Adaptive Economics

Although there can be a relationship, I just don't see it as inherent or exclusive.  I want Adaptive Economics for my Socialist.  I think it's the obvious place for Planned as well.

6 secret project   The Planetary Datalinks         Cyberethics

It's stock game familiarity.  It doesn't actually make any sense at all.  Hasn't made sense in my mod lately either.  Cyberethics doesn't have much to do with anything!

4f facility - minerals   Genejack factory         Retroviral Engineering

Not wrong, but I did Bio-Engineering.

6 secret project   The Citizens' Defense Force         Intellectual Integrity

More stock game familiarity.  Makes no actual sense at all.  The quote / voice acting is Zhakarov talking about what people prefer to be true, rather than what the evidence shows to be likely or possible.  Just isn't relevant to survival militias patrolling perimeters.  I repurposed I.I. as a Discover tech.  Like I'm guessing it probably was at some point in their development.  There are some clues that they had some rebalancing troubles, like Optical Computers not doing anything.

7 weapon   Fusion laser   6      Organic Superlubricant

Familiarity; doesn't actually make any basic sense.  I repurposed it as the basis for hovertanks.

4e facility - ecodamage   Hybrid forest         Planetary Economics

Ask yourself why this would really have anything to do with trees.

1 unit types   Hovertank chassis         Nanominiaturization

Again, why.  Nanites magically float things because...?

2 ability   Carrier deck         Nanometallurgy

Never made a damn lick of sense, and was clearly mapping a Civ II military progression into SMAC.  Totally inappropriate, we're not making a transition from battleships to aircraft carriers.  I put it in Doctrine: Air Power, even though it makes that tech a bit overloaded.

4h facility - prototypes   Skunkworks         Advanced Subatomic Theory

Doesn't matter that much where you put this.  I put it with Neural Grafting, which is still when you get 2 abilities in my mod.

1 unit types   Copter chassis         Mind/Machine Interface

Never made one lick of sense.  It's just a military progression.

4a facility - military   Flechette defense system         N-Space Compression

Flechettes are small darts.  Doesn't have anything to do with compressing anything.

4b facility - drones   Paradise garden         Sentient Econometrics

Why?  Is the garden made out of robots or artificial intelligences?  Out of money and businesspeople?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

You could make some armors prereqs for weapons and vice versa. That might solve the "armor too far ahead" or "weapon too far ahead" problems

We are talking about one faction weapon against another faction armor. So if the first one is up to date with both weapon and armor it doesn't help the other a bit.
😆

I don't see "armor too far ahead" or "weapon too far ahead" as problems. This is a game with the free flow of information and that is what you get. You cannot just prescribe everybody a narrow technological path.

Why are you compelled to solve these problems at all? You don't get enough fun from the game? Something bothering you or you get bored? What is your problem statement?

[bvanevery]

I don't see "armor too far ahead" or "weapon too far ahead" as problems.

Weapon too far ahead leads to a cakewalk, a colonial style slaughter.

Armor too far ahead doesn't lead to much of anything.  Territory remains more static.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I don't see "armor too far ahead" or "weapon too far ahead" as problems.

Weapon too far ahead leads to a cakewalk, a colonial style slaughter.

Armor too far ahead doesn't lead to much of anything.  Territory remains more static.

You lost the context. We were talking about weapon to far ahead comparing to armor in discoveries in general. It is not that one faction is too far ahead in weapon that other is in armor. They both will have strong weapon and weak armor. Not necessarily one will kill another.