SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[bvanevery]

Details original Former not independent

original Former not independent

Units that started out independent, are being assigned to cities and costing me SUPPORT.  Has happened with 2 Unity Rovers as well.  I restarted a game because I thought in some sleep deprived haze, I'd accidentally homed my Formers to my bases.  Not so.

30 turns ago, my Formers were independent.  By 20 turns ago, they were costing SUPPORT.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

New feature.
https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/blob/master/wtp_changelog.md#version-292

Support is a complex and controversial thing by itself. Trying to tune it while human player exploits cloning hordes of free scouts away from bases and when computer players exchange their former support between each other makes it double so. I decided to establish the simplest baseline possible removing all random or quirky features those can be used as exploit and/or skew support configuring. At first I tried to assign all free or wrongly assigned units at once but it created sudden support surge especially at the beginning of the game. So I smoothened it out by doing that in the least invasive fashion not exhausting bases support all at once. Free units get assigned to bases to not reduce mineral surplus below 2 (or whatever is configured).

I agree this is not pretty straightforward to predict when free unit becomes assigned. I am open for other suggestions.
Also I may make it more wordy in changelog if it is unclear.

Now, on the top of this base state we can adjust support parameters: a) number of free units and b) how fast it grows per rating. Currently it is 2 free per base, others are consuming 1 mineral by default changing by 1/4 per SUPPORT rating.

I observed AI and it seems that 2 free units is slightly too tight for them especially when probes also require support. Maybe raise it to 3-4? This would also solve the problem assigning all initial units to first base (1 colony + 2 formers + scout). Also I can modify the logic to not assign free colony. This would apply to initial colonies only.

[bvanevery]

I think giving 2 Independent Formers at the beginning of the game, and then reassigning them as SUPPORT dependencies later, is nonsensical and surprising.  Also not a good thing to inflict upon players who are only just returning to SMAC, ala the route of your mod.  They may want a mod for additional challenge, but that doesn't mean they want their basic expectations to get weird.  "I giveth, then I taketh away" is pretty weird.  It would be better not to give free Formers at all.

I guess that initial Independent Scout is being sneakily assigned as well, and I just didn't notice.  I think that would tick off a player a lot, when they notice.  Carefully managing SUPPORT is pretty important in the early game.

I'm not inclined to say that gaining Independent units from popping supply pods is a problem.  The AI is doing a pretty good job cleaning out all the supply pods, last I checked?  Unless I'm confusing straight Thinker for what happens in WTP.  You're only going to get Independent units in proportion to how many pods you pop, and past the early game, it's not like an Independent Unity Rover is some awesome advantage.  The Independent Unity Transports are not that useful in WTP because you've kept them Slow like the original game.  In my mod they're full speed and also have Deep Radar on them, so getting a fleet of those is definitely useful early on.

Getting Independent mindworms could be considered a problem.  But, you could also ask whether this is an advantage a PLANET friendly faction should legitimately have, for having made the choice.  And if it's somehow overpowered, is Independence what makes it overpowered, or just being able to have too many mindworms?  I think it's the latter, at least in the stock binary.

Getting Independent ships because Marine Detachments boarded them, could be considered a problem.  But again, is it a legit advantage for having spent production on the Marine Detachment ability?  Is it something the Pirates should have as their most basic faction advantage?

I think bribing units is often helluh expensive and often doesn't work at all.  So if that's a source of Independent units, I don't think it's a problem.  Usually you can't buy cheap enemy units forever, because of that funny escalating cost formula, and because factions react by choosing ++PROBE stuff.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I'll do a factory recall on it then.
😀

[bvanevery]

Bear in mind also that when you disallow Independent units, you're directly harming Morganite gameplay.  Free Market means low police rating, means needing something to go abroad that doesn't upset people.

I would suggest considering which grants of Independent units are overpowered, if ever.  I really think mindworms and pirate ships are the only way you can farm them.  Wandering around in fungus trying to pop pods, when you can pretty easily be killed wandering around, is not exactly a farming strategy.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

True for human but AI is stupid and send supported units abroad in low police rating harming bases tremendously.

[bvanevery]

Still don't think you should take a player's agency away without good reason.  The problem with "new concept" stuff is often one hasn't thought about how it impacts all 14 faction playstyles.  Until one does the playtesting, say by the nth game of random opponents, and discovers what the harm is.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I agree. That is why I plan to revert it. Not too elegant solution anyway.

[bvanevery]

If you dislike the number of clones and Unity Rovers someone can get, why wouldn't you just lower the frequency of those events?  If that was your main objection.

Mindworms, the number of them you can capture should be downgraded.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I have been working on further AI improvement including unit movement. Big work. Swamping in it for a few months already. Now I stopped programming due to other events in my life. May not return to it for a few months as well. So, I guess, I just share some algorithms used for users to see if they like it. And to discuss something meanwhile.
😆

move -> production cycle
Vanilla checks/changes production in bases in pretty erratic way. It may check some bases multiple times a turn and don't even check some others. I am making it more straightforward with "move -> production" cycle.
First units are moved. Each unit may get some task to do in form of: go there and do this. Then as engine processes all unit tasks it also make note of some task demands or requests. For example if a lot of land units needs to be transported across the ocean but there is not many transports in this ocean, the number of transport requests goes up and so is the transport building priority in bases connected to this ocean. Or if there are many aliens around to kill but not enough scouts to do so - scout production priority goes up. Or if bases are under siege but there is not enough protectors to counter the threat, military units production priority goes up. And so on.

base threat evaluation
For each base algorithm scans all combat units on a map trying to make crude intelligent determination whether these units can advance toward player base. For example, pure protective units stationed at other bases do not present a threat or air units unable to reach the base from nearest airport do not present a threat either, etc.
Then each unit is weighed by its distance to the base and by current diplomatic relations. Units of enemy nation present full threat, pact units are no threat and peaceful ones are somewhere in the middle. That is to account for potential threat and prepare for future treaty break.
Then each our unit type is compared to each not our unit type to see how effective it is against them. I.e. how many of our units are needed to stop the invasion. Some of our units are more effective some are less.
Then all combat factors are taken into account: defensive structures, sensors, PLANET rating, unit morale, etc.
This all above summarized to some number representing total threat to the base as well as each of our unit contribution to alleviate it.
On top of that I also assume that enemy units will have hard time advancing through our territory due to ZOC and need to fight their way through. Therefore, land bases deep in land territory will receive much lower threat rating.

base protection
Algorithm sorts units by their combat effectiveness and sends most effective units to the closes base where it is needed the most. Then next unit and next unit until all base protection demands are satisfied. If there are still under protected bases the demand for military unit production raises.

enemy assault
This is not implemented yet.
If all base protections are satisfied and there are units left, these units can be sent toward some enemy base to capture it.

instant kill
Every time military unit moves it reviews enemy units around reachable within a single turn. If it can kill it with 1.5 odds it attacks.

waiting for backup
If unit is tasked to attack an enemy unit it evaluates own chances to win in a single battle. If it cannot, it stays within 3 tiles from the target and wait for reinforcement (more friendly units targeting the same enemy). Then when they are all in same range of the target, they move ahead as an army. I tested this and it does work but not perfect. Either way it is much better to attack fungal tower by multiple scouts within pretty tight turn range rather than not even tryin to synchronize them.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Mindworms, the number of them you can capture should be downgraded.

What do you mean? Reduce capture chance?

Is it you own idea or is it in response to our conversation?

[bvanevery]

I don't know about Thinker and WTP, but in the stock binary, you can capture a surprisingly large number of mindworms even with only +1 PLANET.  Granted I'm always playing on Huge maps and that may affect it somehow.  It really shouldn't be possible to have such a large number of mindworms per PLANET spent.  I don't know what the right number is, but I do know that stock is over the top.

I've noticed that in WTP, +2 PLANET seems to be the threshold for going on a "mindworm scouting rampage" where the force can keep building on itself.  +1 doesn't do it.  With mindworms having less offensive power in WTP, +1 PLANET tends to be a stalemate where you may capture a mindworm, but if you attack another mindworm with it, it'll probably die.  So you can't snowball and the whole thing fizzles.  I believe you have +15% steps between your PLANET ratings, so it's something about the difference between a +15% and +30% bonus, that is a tipping point.  Maybe also coupled with the defense modifiers also being worked in there, unlike stock.

If you're worried about Independent units, then this is one of the big sources of Independent units.  Food for your thought.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

WTP doesn't change capture chance. It is +25% per PLANET rating as in vanilla. Capped at 75%.
The PLANET attack/defense bonus is indeed +15%.

You are right that with 1:1 land attack mind worm army does not snowball that pronouncedly anymore. Yet, one does not need to attack to capture. If you are farming with mind worm and encountered alien mind worm, try to attack. It is either capture it right away or shows odds dialog meaning capture failed. Cancel attack and just follow this alien unit and try on next turn. Stupid, I know but this how it is sequenced in vanilla.

I am thinking to make each captured life form cost support. This way one still can gather large native army but this will draw their production. That would force player either start using them or stop accumulating them. Good check in my opinion.

[bvanevery]

Cancel attack and just follow this alien unit and try on next turn.

Hm, despite having odds calculator on permanently exactly so I can abuse capture, I never thought of trying to capture over and over again.  I think it's because I'm also interested in leveling up my own mindworms.  Killing a pile of them is just fine.  Plus in stock, you get money.

I am thinking to make each captured life form cost support. This way one still can gather large native army but this will draw their production. That would force player either start using them or stop accumulating them. Good check in my opinion.

Earlier in the game, it might force a decision.  Later in the game, production minerals are abundant from multipliers and SUPPORT doesn't matter much anymore.

Another factor is when you let the player start making their own mindworms in factories.  There's no advantage to capturing a bunch of mindworms if they cost SUPPORT anyways and you can just make them.  Not unless you could reliably produce twice as many units by beating the bush with Scouts, and I don't think mindworm capture is that reliable.

I don't allow mindworms in the lab until late game now.  Since they are the best weapon of the game.

[bvanevery]

Ok I thought I'd try 292 again, accepting that I'd get stuffed with SUPPORT.  I want to point out though, that it's even worse for certain factions.  Like I started with the Pirates.  Because they get a Unity Gunship and not a Scout to start with, within 5 turns I've already got 1 base that's paying 1 extra mineral in SUPPORT.  Gotta have Scouts to defend the sea bases, not gonna sit around with a ship in 'em.  Pirates don't typically get places with a lot minerals to start with either.  I didn't this time, the minerals specials were covered in fungus and I think I was swimming 3 turns towards shore as is.

Similarly, since you charge SUPPORT for probe teams, the Data Angels are going to be hosed by their extra unit and put at a disadvantage.  The Cultists will be paying SUPPORT on their mindworm, unless you keep mindworms independent for some reason.

The worst one of all is, someone who gets a free ship because they've been given a lousy start, is going to get a lousy start paying extra SUPPORT for it.

The idea of paying SUPPORT on units you start the game with, is really bad.

Battle Ogre for Alien factions.

Also if you get any free units really early on, they're basically not bonuses anymore.  They're penalties, in that they'll cripple your early colony production.  Yes you could disband them.  That's infinitely sick and irritating for players to have to do.  "I giveth, and I taketh away."

The only way I can see salvaging some remnant of your idea, short of reversion, is putting a turn limit or later game condition on when these independent units are no longer independent.  Now of course if your whole point was to constrain the early game, well, it's a bad idea.  Should just give out units you consider problematic, less frequently.