SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Here's what i was saying about combat problem with worms and psi combat. The way PSI combat works it turns out that its really bad idea to attack anything non-combat in enemy land due to territory bonus. Worm is relatively expensive and it actually badly loses attacking cheap formers for example. On screenshot in attachment formers are in base.. and its double bonus - and they are unarmored. Foils are also problem.. probes probably - AI at least builds armored probes.

You are substitute one problem with another. The psi is there for very specific purpose: to nullify weapon/armor. Thus, it is most useful against strong conventional units and least against others - especially non combat. I'm glad that you discovered this law. 😉 However, it has nothing to do with the mod. It will be exactly like that in vanilla or any other mod. Although, in vanilla it is unnoticeable just because 3:2 psi attack odds against half strength not combat unit turning to 3:1 + notorious vanilla multi-round-combat-always-win thing. By removing all these things my mod crystallized what always was there and should have been.

Territory bonus is kind of understandable for military units - they are "trained".. but it turns out that non-combat is real pain for PSI attack. I had quite a few situation where these units did way better than equivalent trained/experienced defensive units. I read about combat goals of the mod - and its ok i can see  how you want for example to have 8 str attacker die vs former on forest in his land (having 2 str total)... so its like 4:1 and say 20% of cases attacker dies.

This is a game and any resemblance with real world is just for resemblance. Not for transferring rules from one world to another. I believe there is no need to multiply entities without need. Vanilla nerfed non combat units for some unknown reason and I've got rid of this nonsense.

[Nexii]

10x the facility cost for an SP is quite high. You're often better off just building the facilities at that point. What's omitted is the opportunity cost. It takes one base longer to make the SP than individual ones. Ok, a human player can do mass crawlers to circumvent this but can the AI? The bigger opportunity cost for many SPs is all the labs spent. SPs should be a reward for investing in labs over other things like facilities or units. Otherwise there's not much advantage to being ahead of the curve, which leads to conquer being more of a dominant strategy over build. Or simply tech stealing because the SP race is so long.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

10x the facility cost for an SP is quite high. You're often better off just building the facilities at that point. What's omitted is the opportunity cost. It takes one base longer to make the SP than individual ones. Ok, a human player can do mass crawlers to circumvent this but can the AI? The bigger opportunity cost for many SPs is all the labs spent. SPs should be a reward for investing in labs over other things like facilities or units. Otherwise there's not much advantage to being ahead of the curve, which leads to conquer being more of a dominant strategy over build. Or simply tech stealing because the SP race is so long.

At that point - yes. However, SP serves you for the rest of the game becoming more and more powerful as you build more bases. 10 times is just some estimate of the SP value at some point. I am not saying I picked right formula for SP cost. It is just very rough estimate. And this formula does not have a meaning behind it. Not that I actually tried to visualize the exact SP value or something.

You are theorizing about how SP cost changes the advantage? We can do that or we can play the game few times and get a feeling whether it cripples AI or not. In my games on highest difficulty it never feel like AI is at disadvantage. They keep slapping SPs left and right as usual. At slower rate, of course. But still I never can build more than 10-30% of SPs for myself. Thinker AI + Transcend bonuses = it is really a challenge to beat them even with crawler rush!
😜

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Command nexus - looks way too expensive.

Actually, you know what? I think you may be right. My 10 times the facility cost is a good estimate for a facility that is beneficial for each base. Whereas, morale and defense facilities are not. So the cost of corresponding SP should be proportionally lower. I don't think cutting it in half is reasonable but somewhere at 75%? What everyone thinks? With exception of The Cloudbase Academy. It is beneficial at every base.

So that changes it:
The Command Nexus = 800 -> 600
The Citizens' Defense Force = 500 -> 400
The Maritime Control Center = 800 -> 600
The Cloudbase Academy = 1200 -> 1200

I also agree to more reduce the cost of Command Center and corresponding The Command Nexus a little bit more with regards that it is just a single purpose facility comparing to dual purpose Naval Yard. But not too much. Something like 70 maybe. That'll make The Command Nexus cost somewhere 500.

[bvanevery]

My empirical study is that having Command Centers everywhere is not a game changer.  Therefore, the Command Nexus should not be exorbitantly expensive.  Whereas, the Planetary Energy Grid is a game changer and should be expensive.  I also make it come a bit later so you have to work for it.  The Weather Paradigm is also a game changer, but it has to come earlier, otherwise it has no value compared to Build 5 Advanced Ecological Engineering.  So I make it cost a bit less and it comes earlier.  Secret Projects are supposed to be a race.  Rewards go to those who win the race first.  Not just "it's more valuable than building 20 or 30 Command Centers" or whatever.

I make SPs expensive enough, that it's generally not possible to win a race with all of them.  I've also diversified my tech tree weights enough, that you can't get the research in all branches of the tech tree all that easily.  You can steal techs from others, and indeed I often use that strategy, but on Huge maps it may not be so easy.  Sometimes you're on the opposite side of the map from the one who's churning out all the techs you don't have.  Sometimes the map is a damn maze and you can't just sail a ship over there.

You can see how much I think various SPs are game changers by how much I've weighted them and how late I've put them.  As of my mod version 1.43:

Code: [Select]

The Human Genome Project,     30, 0, Cyber,  Disable,  +1 Talent Each Base,            0, 0, 0, 0, 2,
The Command Nexus,            30, 0, Poly,  Disable,  Command Center Each Base,        1, 2, 0, 0, 0,
The Weather Paradigm,         40, 0, EcoEng, Disable,  Terraform Rate +50%,             0, 0, 0, 2, 2,
The Merchant Exchange,        30, 0, IndEcon,  Disable,  +1 Energy Each Square Here,      0, 0, 0, 2, 0,
The Empath Guild,             60, 0, HomoSup, Disable, 2x Votes; Infiltrate Every Faction,     0, 0, 0, 2, 0,
The Citizens' Defense Force,  30, 0, Subat,   Disable,  Perimeter Defense Each Base,     0, 1, 0, 0, 0,
The Virtual World,            30, 0, Brain, Disable,  Network Nodes Help Drones,       0, 0, 1, 0, 1,
The Planetary Transit System, 30, 0, EnvEcon, Disable,  New Bases Begin At Size 3,       0, 0, 0, 0, 1,
The Xenoempathy Dome,         50, 0, Eudaim, Disable,  Fungus Movement Bonus,           1, 2, 0, 0, 2,
The Neural Amplifier,         60, 0, WillPow,  Disable,  Psi Defense +50%,                0, 1, 0, 0, 2,
The Maritime Control Center,  40, 0, DocInit, Disable,  Naval Movement +2; Naval Bases,  1, 2, 0, 0, 2,
The Planetary Datalinks,      30, 0, OptComp,   Disable,  Any Tech Known To 3 Others,      0, 1, 1, 1, 1,
The Supercollider,            30, 0, E=Mc2,   Disable,  Labs +100% At This Base,         0, 0, 2, 0, 0,
The Ascetic Virtues,          30, 0, Magnets, Disable,  Pop. Limit Relaxed; +1 POLICE,   0, 0, 0, 0, 2,
The Longevity Vaccine,        40, 0, BioEng,  Disable,  Fewer Drones or More Profits,    0, 0, 0, 2, 2,
The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm,  50, 0, Algor,   Disable,  Immunity to Probe Teams,         1, 2, 0, 0, 0,
The Pholus Mutagen,           80, 0, AlphCen, Disable,  Ecology Bonus; Lifecycle Bonus,  1, 2, 0, 2, 2,
The Cyborg Factory,           80, 0, MindMac, Disable,  Bioenh. Center Every Base,       1, 2, 0, 0, 0,
The Theory of Everything,     40, 0, Unified, Disable,  Labs +100% At This Base,         0, 0, 2, 0, 0,
The Dream Twister,            100, 0, SentRes, Disable,  Psi Attack +50%,                 1, 2, 0, 0, 2,
The Universal Translator,     30, 0, Integ, Disable,  Two Free Techs,                  0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
The Network Backbone,         60, 0, DigSent, Disable,  +1 Lab Per Commerce/Net Node,    0, 0, 2, 0, 1,
The Nano Factory,             40, 0, IndAuto,  Disable,  Repair Units; Low Upgrade Costs, 1, 2, 0, 1, 0,
The Living Refinery,          60, 0, Metal,   Disable,  +2 SUPPORT (social),             0, 0, 0, 2, 0,
The Cloning Vats,             100, 0, BioMac,  Disable,  Population Boom At All Bases,    1, 2, 0, 2, 2,
The Self-Aware Colony,        60, 0, SentEco, Disable,  Maintenance Halved; Extra Police,0, 0, 0, 2, 2,
Clinical Immortality,           100, 0, NanEdit, Disable,  2x Votes; Extra Talent Every Base,         0, 0, 0, 2, 2,
The Space Elevator,            100, 0, IndRob,  Disable,  Energy +100%/Orbital Cost Halved,1, 2, 0, 2, 2,
The Singularity Inductor,     150, 0, ConSing, Disable,  Quantum Converter Every Base,    0, 0, 0, 2, 0,
The Bulk Matter Transmitter,  100, 0, Matter,  Disable,  +2 Minerals Every Base,          0, 0, 0, 2, 0,
The Telepathic Matrix,        150, 0, Thresh,  Disable,  No More Drone Riots; +2 PROBE,   1, 2, 0, 2, 2,
The Voice of Planet,          100, 0, Thresh,  Disable,  Begins Ascent To Transcendence,  0,-2, 2, 2, 2,
The Ascent to Transcendence, 300, 0, Thresh,  Disable,  End of Singular Sentience Era,   0, 0, 2, 2, 2,
The Manifold Harmonics,      100, 0, SecMani, Disable,  Bonus Resources In Fungus,      0, 0, 0, 2, 2,
The Nethack Terminus,         60, 0, HAL9000, Disable,  Stronger Probe Teams,            1, 2, 0, 0, 0,
The Cloudbase Academy,        80, 0, Gravity, Disable,  Faster/Stronger Air Units,       1, 2, 0, 2, 2,
The Planetary Energy Grid,   50, 0, PlaEcon, Disable,  Energy Bank At Every Base,      0, 0, 0, 2, 0,

Bear in mind that you don't get any supply crawlers or thermal boreholes until Tier 6 in my mod, which might be considered the beginning of the late game.  I generally buy my SPs with cash and Artifacts.  It would be nice if the stock AI knew how to do that, but it doesn't.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Makes sense. I think I need to review my valuations for them in regard whether it is massively useful or just marginally.

Didn't understand you race example, though. I think race is there because it is more valuable than just a bunch of individual facilities, isn't it?

[bvanevery]

In the beginning of the game, there are lots of things you could be spending your productivity on.  300 minerals is a big hit in the early game.  There are SPs that are valuable to win at that time, but they're not so valuable that you can't live without them.  A Perimeter Defense, a Command Center, 1 more happiness, 2 more happiness if you built this other thing, more energy in your capitol, you can live without all of those things.  There's not really a good reason to make the early player pay through the nose for these advantages.  They're not game changers.

My only weighting that seems to cause controversy, is putting the Planetary Transit System on the lowest tier of SP cost.  I just don't see the value in starting bases at size 3.  Half the time they die to size 2 anyways.  If there is some strategy to superpower the game with this SP, I don't know what it is.  After awhile I think making more bases is a darned nuisance.  And based on all the things I've conquered and pacified, I don't think they pay very well.  Past a certain radius I either Punishment Sphere or genocide, I don't want / need to develop more bases.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

# Version 45

* Command Center cost/maint is 6/2.
* The Command Nexus cost is 40.
* The Citizens' Defense Force cost is 40.
* The Maritime Control Center cost is 60.

[Nexii]

PTS is one of the strongest SPs if abused correctly. It's one of those that I felt was the most useless of all them for a long time. But now I think it might just be the third best SP in the game, only behind Weather Paradigm and Cloning Vats. Its value does depend a lot on how early you can get it.

I think there's a bit of a tendency to overrate SPs too. Yes they help all game but so do formers, crawlers, facilities. I had them actually decosted for awhile, though I put them mostly back to default prices with a bit of tweaking here and there. The point is that SPs are sort of the engine, the driver to focus on tech rather than expansion.

That's not to say free facilities aren't strong, they very much are. I designed my factions so that most get a free facility, because University's free network nodes were that good. Sparta gets free command centers as an example. It makes them fearsome but it's not so powerful they can't be beat. Because the other factions get an economic advantage.

One thing I wasn't sure about was why Empath, Clean, Hypnotic, and Non-Lethal had such high costs. They might as well be disabled in that case?

[Induktio]

<delete>

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

One thing I wasn't sure about was why Empath, Clean, Hypnotic, and Non-Lethal had such high costs. They might as well be disabled in that case?

Hmm. You seem to be confused by my ability flat cost in mineral rows feature.
https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer#unit-pricing-principles

Abilities now have both proportional (as in vanilla) and flat cost components. Since there is only one value for them in alphax.txt they are binary packed into it. To get flat cost you need to whole divide their alphax.txt value by 16.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

If you're releasing a fork, you should update the MOD_VERSION #define accordingly. It's supposed to uniquely identify the version you are using while in game.

This one?
    #define MOD_VERSION "Thinker Mod v1.0"

What should I put there?

The tech cost formula in this mod is broken. It ignores the actual faction SE Research rating completely, m->rule_techcost does not refer to the same variable in social engineering. Actual variable Faction->SE_research is not included.

Let me clarify this from your formula.

m->rule_techcost - faction specific tech cost modifier in percents?
f->SE_research - faction RESEARCH rating - initial or current?
f->tech_ranking - ?
*tx_game_rules & RULES_TECH_STAGNATION - technology stagnation option from alphax.txt?
tx_basic->rules_tech_discovery_rate - global tech cost modifier in percents?
(owned > 0 ? (owned > 1 ? 0.75 : 0.85) : 1.0) - what is the meaning of this?

[Hagen0]

Did you do anything about the combat odds? I think they are fine as they are. Maybe they give a slightly too large advantage to the side with higher strength. But for instance two Missile interceptors should be able to trade with one Chaos Interceptor. Another potential problem is Fusion reactor. It both makes units cheaper and gives them huge power boost.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Did you do anything about the combat odds? I think they are fine as they are. Maybe they give a slightly too large advantage to the side with higher strength.

Well, of course! This is a cornerstone of this mod. Check readme.
https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer#combat-mechanics

I did this because I don't think they are fine as they are and there is quite a piece of reasoning on that in readme with charts and stuff. This advantage is not slight. It's immense.

But for instance two Missile interceptors should be able to trade with one Chaos Interceptor.

Don't follow you. How is this "trade" happens in the game?

Another potential problem is Fusion reactor. It both makes units cheaper and gives them huge power boost.

Yes. It is. I encourage you to check my readme and enormous amount of posts at this forum related to this problem and potential solutions. I can also answer any specific questions you may have.

[Hagen0]

It doesn't appear to say what your combat formula really is. The example you give is a bit odd. A unit with 2-1 combat strength advantage should of course win with very high probability. However it should take damage in the process.