Turning SMAX back into strategy game

[bvanevery]

Did you know that altitude matters in Ocean to Ocean ranged combat?  I didn't.  A unit in Ocean Shelf has an advantage over a unit in Ocean.  I think that's completely stupid / a bug.  After being victimized by it, I learned to abuse it myself:

Details different kinds of sea level

different kinds of sea level

I'm thinking both of these settings are lame:

Code: [Select]

50,      ; Combat % -> Land based guns vs. ship artillery bonus
25,      ; Combat % -> Artillery bonus per level of altitude
Let's try 10% for each.

[bvanevery]

Details no penalty in port

no penalty in port

A combat with the proposed change to the caught in port setting.

Details marine getting bonus against sea base

marine getting bonus against sea base

I set it back to the 100% penalty to see what happens.  Eventually contrived this attack upon a sea base.  I agree that this is completely, utterly stupid.  Regardless of any logic it may have ever had about land bases being "ports", it's not acceptable for a ship defending a sea base to be at a disadvantage.  So I will change it to 0%.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Did you know that altitude matters in Ocean to Ocean ranged combat?

I'm thinking both of these settings are lame:

Code: [Select]

50,      ; Combat % -> Land based guns vs. ship artillery bonus
25,      ; Combat % -> Artillery bonus per level of altitude
Let's try 10% for each.

Wow, I didn't too. That's lame. I would completely nullify any altitude related bonuses as it inconvenient at least. Besides now I need to waste my time thinking whether I placed my base too low. Or I would need to raise my base to make it more defense ready. Although it is an interesting concept it's too much additional mouse clicks comparing to the interest.

[bvanevery]

Besides now I need to waste my time thinking whether I placed my base too low.

I'm thinking other resource and defense factors would usually outweigh this consideration.  Do you have enough minerals, and food to work those minerals?  Are you touching fungus?  Are you too close to an enemy's route of expansion?

Or I would need to raise my base to make it more defense ready. Although it is an interesting concept it's too much additional mouse clicks comparing to the interest.

But I think you're right that even worrying about a 10% bonus, is not worth a player's mental energy.  Similarly, awhile ago I got rid of variations for unit cost and Trance, so that the player wouldn't futz.  I'll zero these.  I'll also leave a note about altitude affecting Ocean to Ocean Shelf combat.

[bvanevery]

I played a game as Caretakers, doing a big fungus beating / supply pod popping thing on a Standard map.  Using 4:3 odds, I really didn't have any problem.  I don't know if it's a problem for a non-PLANET faction though.  I haven't tested that.

Details 5 to 4 odds

5 to 4 odds

I am now doing the same Caretaker exercise with 5 to 4 odds.  I'm having a problem.  This combat, I lost the 1st time, so I'm running it more times to see how it goes.  This is only MY 2122 so weak mindworm interlopers should be dying.  Having a lone defender not know how to respond to such a mindworm, and losing an early base as a result, would not be fun.

Details 2 mindworm victories in a row

2 mindworm victories in a row

It was not a fluke.  That's enough evidence for me; this setting is no good.

Details 4 to 3 odds

4 to 3 odds

Changing it back to 4:3, I always win.

Details bad for me, worse for them

bad for me, worse for them

However it's possible to get really chewed up.  It was an outlier, maybe 1 in 6 it went this badly.  That would be ok by itself, but this is a +PLANET faction.  I'm concerned that a normal strength faction might not do well enough.  I'll have to test that now.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Besides now I need to waste my time thinking whether I placed my base too low.

I'm thinking other resource and defense factors would usually outweigh this consideration.  Do you have enough minerals, and food to work those minerals?  Are you touching fungus?  Are you too close to an enemy's route of expansion?

Exactly!!!!! That's why I don't want this minor altitude thing to clutter my memory.

[bvanevery]

Some games are based on cluttering people's memory with piles of factors upon factors, but that's not SMAC.  Today I watched a video about why cats were dying en masse in Dwarf Fortress.  It seems their simulation is so pecunious, that they simulate dirt on eyeballs, eyeballs opening and closing to clean stuff off, cats having the same mechanic on all their body parts, cats getting stuff on various parts of their bodies, and ingesting whatever they're cleaning off.  They were getting into spilled beer and having that get on their bodies.  A mistake was made where entire pints of beer were being represented on the cats' bodies!  So they drank it all and died.

Now a bug like that, in a game like Dwarf Fortress, where people have a culture of being amused by their bizarre deaths, can be fine.  But I don't remember anyone in SMAC ever being amused by bizarre combat deaths due to dumb factors.  I think this is because SMAC is about managing combat, and also multiplayer combat is expected to be fair.  Dwarf Fortress is single player so doesn't have to be fair; in fact it many ways it tends towards egregiously unfair as a matter of design / simulation.

Details 4 to 3 no PLANET bonus

4 to 3 no PLANET bonus

These are equal opponents, only the 4:3 odds changes anything.  I've won consistently, although I can get torn up.  That's ok.  I think this setting is probably the best that can be done without screwing up the game.

[bvanevery]

I think of the concerns we've discussed, the only one remaining to test is the +50% defense for a land unit near a Sensor Array.  I have noticed that the AI loves to build artillery and loves to blow away Sensor Arrays.

Especially in my mod, since I make Heavy Artillery available with C1 Doctrine: Mobility and also a (1)-1-1 "Light Artillery" unit.  I also took away the extra cost of putting artillery on Speeders or giving them armor, it's just a choice about how you want your gun to work.  So the AI likes to produce a lot of (1)-2-1 units, which are annoying early on because you don't have any early weapons that'll easily take out Synthmetal armor in my mod.  Fortunately a (1)-1-1 is completely equal to that unit in an artillery duel, the armor doesn't matter.  It costs half as much, so the answer is to build (1)-1-1 units for defense and shell any aggressor artillery that comes.

Anyways, much energy is invested in building artillery, and placing Sensor Arrays where artillery can't easily hit them.  If you don't do that, whether it's a 25% or 50% bonus doesn't even matter.

Maybe I should find a way to cut down the amount of artillery spam in my mod.  Maybe it is annoying.

[bvanevery]

Details hiding behind trees

hiding behind trees

Did you know that forests are worth +50% advantage?  I think that's too high.  However I don't see anywhere to mod it, so I guess I'm stuck with it.  The good news is, the AI will pillage that forest.

[bvanevery]

Details convenient Recon defense

convenient Recon defense

Just saw possibly my 1st instance of defense due to Sensor Array.  I didn't have time to get a screen capture of the battle, wasn't prepared.  But their Recon Rover attacked mine, as I haven't built any real armor in the base yet.  I do have a Perimeter Defense.  But, in the ordinary game, I'm pretty sure an attack 2 would kill a defense 1 even behind a wall.  Instead here I am sitting pretty with only 50% wounds.

Details heavier artillery than mine

heavier artillery than mine

I cannot attack his 2 strength artillery with my 1 strength artillery.  It is suicide.  Can I defend though?  Well he doesn't seem to want to attack, so maybe the answer is yes.  Oddly, he's not pillaging either.  Maybe he realizes the forest is protecting him.

Details more offensive suicide

more offensive suicide

My Perimeter Defense is worth the most here.  I'm confused on the math though.  Seems like my final strength should be 2.75, not 3.75.  Anyways I should probably test the value of Sensor Arrays for a faction that doesn't have Perimeter Defenses.  For now I'll just how much junk I can repel though.

This must be a case of geometric vs. arithmetic stacking.
1 + (1 * 25%) = 1.25
1.25 + (1.25 * 100%) = 2.5
2.5 + (2.5 * 50%) = 3.75 !!!
The Sensor Array bonus is applied after other stuff has been computed.  That means it can have a pretty hefty effect, much more than if you're thinking it's a linear increase from 25% to 50%.  If it's at the stock value of 25%:
2.5 + (2.5 * 25%) = 3.125
If I didn't have a Perimeter Defense, and the Sensor Array was at 25%:
1.25 + (1.25 * 25%) = 1.5625
If I didn't have a Perimeter Defense, and the Sensor Array was at 50%:
1.25 + (1.25 * 50%) = 1.875

In short, without the Perimeter Defense, I'd be dead.  With the Perimeter Defense, but no Sensor Array, I'd be at 2.5.  Even odds with the attacker.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

This must be a case of geometric vs. arithmetic stacking.
1 + (1 * 25%) = 1.25
1.25 + (1.25 * 100%) = 2.5
2.5 + (2.5 * 50%) = 3.75 !!!
The Sensor Array bonus is applied after other stuff has been computed.  That means it can have a pretty hefty effect, much more than if you're thinking it's a linear increase from 25% to 50%.  If it's at the stock value of 25%:
2.5 + (2.5 * 25%) = 3.125
If I didn't have a Perimeter Defense, and the Sensor Array was at 25%:
1.25 + (1.25 * 25%) = 1.5625
If I didn't have a Perimeter Defense, and the Sensor Array was at 50%:
1.25 + (1.25 * 50%) = 1.875

Unit strength multipliers are multiplicative. So sensor's +50% is a 1.5 multiplier and so on.

Didn't understand what is that. Which factors are you combining?
1 + (1 * 25%) = 1.25
1.25 + (1.25 * 100%) = 2.5
2.5 + (2.5 * 50%) = 3.75 !!!

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Folks,

I've  changed my initial idea to re-associating military items with different technologies to smooth out their appearance. Now I think it much better to keep technology association and move corresponding technologies in the tree instead. I believe the stuff technology produces has stronger mnemonic association rather than technology dependency. In fact most of these dependencies are quite inexplicable so replacing some strange dependencies with others won't hurt much.

While handling the task I've realized there are other features besides military items I would love to move up and down technology tree to make them appear at the right time and not too early or too late as in original game. I believe this will add some fun in it.

Since global tech tree and features reshuffling is off the topic I will open another thread on the matter. Please share your opinions there. Thank you to all participating.

[bvanevery]

Which factors are you combining?

The ones in my last screenshot of a combat.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Which factors are you combining?

The ones in my last screenshot of a combat.

Then your calculation is correct for veteran unit.

[bvanevery]

Details the Fredricksburg effect

the Fredricksburg effect

The 50% Sensor Array bonus does seem to create a fortified position, when backed by artillery.  I've been blowing away a lot of Believers.  Now they're getting so uppity that they're advancing with a stack of 12 peons.  But I shell them with 3 artillery pieces, and my defense is too tough for their puny strength 3 guns.  That's due to regularizing "weapons = armor" throughout the tech tree.

The Spartans have got Silksteel armor now, but they're on another continent and we're not directly fighting.  Just skirmishing in the water to try to steal stuff from them.

Naval assaults on shore are way easier now, since I took the land gun bonus away.  When some artillery piece takes pot shots at me, they may come out worse for the wear, depending on what's shooting.  Larval spore launchers, especially, are not very good for shelling ships.  The Sensor Arrays can be used to create a land advantage again.