Creationism again stalks the classroom

[Yitzi]

Creationist Tall Tales on Human Tails
The Daily Beast
By Karl W. Giberson  19 hours ago

I am not so certain he is justified in assuming malice rather than mere incompetence; I think we've all encountered, on various internet forums, people who confuse evidence for proof or use bad arguments out of stupidity rather than intentional obfuscation.

[Green1]

Do not worry, Yitzi. that small parish in Louisiana in one of the articles is right south of me. Not all of us drink the Kool Aid.

The atheists (ones with actual sense) are here and will "educate them" through the courts. I am a card carrying member of a major atheist group here and they will have to relent on this pushing religion on young kids who are too young to make a good decision on this. In the US, separation of church and state is not just a good idea, it is the law of the land. If someone wants to brainwash their kid, there are numerous private schools and churches on every corner in the river parishes. Not on my tax dollar.

That said, I do believe the Bible, or any other "holy" book for that matter does have a place in the classroom. I think it would go well right alongside Beowulf, Gilgamesh, and the Greek myths as fiction.

How about a compromise. Churches do have a place. Not in the job or in a school. But there is a need for a place for folks of like minds to gather. How about you take out all the mythology legend stuff and just have a place to meet, get married, and network. Sounds like Unitarian Universalism to me or the Atheist church this guy is setting up in Lake Charles, LA.

[Yitzi]

The atheists (ones with actual sense) are here and will "educate them" through the courts. I am a card carrying member of a major atheist group here and they will have to relent on this pushing religion on young kids who are too young to make a good decision on this. In the US, separation of church and state is not just a good idea, it is the law of the land. If someone wants to brainwash their kid, there are numerous private schools and churches on every corner in the river parishes. Not on my tax dollar.

Religion definitely should not be taught by taxpayer funding.

That said, I do believe the Bible, or any other "holy" book for that matter does have a place in the classroom. I think it would go well right alongside Beowulf, Gilgamesh, and the Greek myths as fiction.

Not such a good idea, as that would amount to making atheism into the state "religion", which is against the spirit if not the letter of the First Amendment.  Better to teach it as something that's had large cultural effect, and simply not deal with the issue of its truthfulness at all.

How about a compromise. Churches do have a place. Not in the job or in a school. But there is a need for a place for folks of like minds to gather. How about you take out all the mythology legend stuff and just have a place to meet, get married, and network. Sounds like Unitarian Universalism to me or the Atheist church this guy is setting up in Lake Charles, LA.

Except that wouldn't actually fulfill the needs of the religion.  (Which, depending on the religion, might actually go quite a bit past just the stories.)  How about let them stay as they are, and keep government strictly neutral* in these matters.

*Which is not quite the same as ignoring them; neutrality sometimes takes active effort.

[Green1]

How can lack of religion be a religion?

You teach the Bible, Koran, etc as literature. Yes, going over the effect this had on culture, art, and architecture would be something to cover and could not be ignored. The Meso-American gods like Tloloc and Queztacoatl also had a profound effect on the architecture and society of that area and time. We teach it, but it is understood that these beings are not real. YHWH is the same deal. You do not say it, but it is understood. There is no need to.  The student makes up their own mind about it.

[Yitzi]

How can lack of religion be a religion?

It isn't really, hence the quote marks.  But it can be treated the same way a state religion is (despite not being a religion), and the idea behind the religion clauses of the first amendment is to create a level playing field, which includes not giving atheism that special status (though obviously the very possibility of such wasn't considered 200-odd years ago.)

You teach the Bible, Koran, etc as literature.

Definitely.  But there's fictional literature and nonfictional literature, and a government-funded class should not take a position on which one they are.

We teach it, but it is understood that these beings are not real. YHWH is the same deal. You do not say it, but it is understood. There is no need to.  The student makes up their own mind about it.

It shouldn't even be implicit, any more than it should be implicit that there is some god.  Let it all be unassumed in governmental institutions.

[Green1]

We need more people like us, Yitzi.

The world would be a better place if we did away with superstition and intolerance. Instead, replace it with logic, tolerance, critical thinking and an occasional brew.

Fortunately, with the internet, many of these hokey religions are dying out. The last bastions are the Middle East and the Southern United States.

[Yitzi]

We need more people like us, Yitzi.

Like us?  We're very different; you're an atheist, whereas I'm a fundamentalist of the intelligent non-crazy variety who recognizes that America should not be a theocracy.

[Green1]

America should not be a theocracy.

Actually, we are. Plus, I am a Unitarian Universalist.

Speaking of Louisiana and theocracy, we just defeated something that boggles the mind. they wanted to make the Bible the "state book"!!!

http://theadvocate.com/home/8966081-125/bible-as-state-book-bill

Bible as State Book bill withdrawn 
 
 


by marsha shuler

 mshuler@theadvocate.com

 April 22, 2014 

15 Comments


State Rep. Thomas Carmody Jr. pulled from consideration Monday evening a proposal to make the Holy Bible the official state book.

Carmody, R-Shreveport, told the Louisiana House he did not want the legislation to be a distraction from other important issues warranting legislators’ attention. The Legislature hasn’t tackled the state budget, resolved the controversy over Common Core or completed legislation addressing lawsuits over the cause of wetlands loss.

In a short speech, Carmody said House Bill 503, which was pending a vote by the full House, “causes some constitutional problems.” He “returned the bill to the calendar” and said it would sit there until the session ends June 2.

As Carmody returned to his desk, several legislators made a bee-line over to thank him.

Legislators still can focus on naming the mayhaw fruit tree as the official state fruit tree.

That proposal — Senate Bill 206 — has made it through the state Senate and is awaiting a House committee hearing.

Louisiana already has a number of official state symbols.

The brown pelican is the state bird. The Catahoula is the state dog. The official state flag can be found on pages 146 and 147 of “The Flag Book of the United States” by Whitney Smith.

Carmody’s HB503 had cleared a Louisiana House committee even as opponents predicted it would provoke a lawsuit.

“If you adopt the Bible as the official state book, you also adopt Christianity as the state religion,” argued state Rep. Wesley Bishop, D-New Orleans, a lawyer and preacher’s son. Establishing a state religion is specifically prohibited in the U.S. Constitution.







 





 

 


Carmody said the Holy Bible was appropriate for a state with strong religious ties.

The legislation also “recognized and acknowledged” the state motto as found in the state pledge of allegiance: “A state, under God, united in purpose and ideals, confident that justice shall prevail for all of those abiding here.”

Making the Bible the official state book quickly became the subject of dozens of editorials, commentaries, national news stories and late-night comics’ fodder. The House Municipal Parochial and Cultural Affairs Committee voted 8-5 for the measure earlier this month.

Carmody told his House colleagues that the measure, House Bill 503, started out on behalf of a constituent who wanted a specific Holy Bible named as the official state book.

The book suggested was the Holy Bible, published by Johannes Prevel, which is the oldest edition of the Holy Bible in the Louisiana State Museum system. The idea was for it to be used on special occasions, such officials’ swearing in ceremonies.

A totally different version of the bill developed during lengthy committee debate, changing the one specific Bible to encompass much more.

Representatives said the Bible that Carmody chose was a King James version. That version of the Bible, which is often used by Protestants, doesn’t include parts familiar to other denominations, such as Catholic or Orthodox churches. The committee amended HB503.

But the version still didn’t suit some committee members who said it was offensive because it did not recognize the religions of all Louisiana residents. They said all books of faith should be swept in including the Torah and Quran.

Carmody said he had discussed the revamped bill with the constituent who had sought the state book legislation before he pulled the plug on it.

He said he took the step so legislators can “focus on things more important.”
 

[Yitzi]

America should not be a theocracy.

Actually, we are.

   We may be closer than we should be, but we aren't actually a theocracy.

Plus, I am a Unitarian Universalist.

My mistake, sorry.   

Speaking of Louisiana and theocracy, we just defeated something that boggles the mind. they wanted to make the Bible the "state book"!!!

If that's as important as the state flower and state bird, I don't think that would be such a big deal.

[Geo]

What are state houses in the US keeping themself occupied with??? State books, motto's, trees,... ? Don't they have better things to do?