Author Topic: Indexing the Network Node factions  (Read 23780 times)

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Offline Green1

Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2012, 01:22:19 AM »
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  • Added point:

    However, a wiki that uses a Table of Contents (ToC) would be a lot easier to locate much of the resources your site has other than hoping to find some thread or the DLs section which is sparse on describing what you are actually DLing.

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #31 on: December 01, 2012, 05:04:12 PM »
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  • I used to be a sysop of a wiki site. One of the things you really have to watch for is that wikis tend to attract twenty tons of spam. Wiki spammers are far worse and more persistant than forum spammers because most wikis are more liberal about links. Wikimedia anti-spam tools are in my opinion much weaker. The only reason the large wikis get away with it (ie: wikipedia, rational wiki, conservapaedia, ED) is merely the sheer number of editors watching the pages day and night with auto-protect buttons ready. More link-tos = better SEO for what ever rip off spam site, so they do have motivation.

    I would suggest if you do put a wiki up, you limit the ability to edit to folks who request permission.

    Plus, sisko is right. Wikimedia requires it's own maintainence on top of your forum.
    I created and ran a fairly large wiki for over a year. Mediawiki has plenty of effective anti-spam measures (regex black/white lists for urls, a load of different capachas on edit or registration, and really easy ways to delete any spam), and should easily be configureable to use the forum's spam resistance (make the drone usergroup unable to edit, only a spambot which was able to spam on forum can spam there). Some wikis do not make best use of the anti spam tools available, which does, unsurprisingly, lead to spam problems. I can advise on (or, with access, help configure) ways to prevent almost all spam. Limiting to people who request permission is a totally unnecessary hurdle for editors and administrative burden.

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #32 on: December 02, 2012, 01:43:49 AM »
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  • Ok, finished adding (I think) all the infobox variables about a faction you will realistically want. I'll do the more advanced features like autocategorization and images when we've got more to play with (our own categorization system, not having to vaguely worry that WP will get annoyed at me using their pages for testing) and put up some documentation on how to use it. For now, a very untidy version of the template.

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #33 on: December 02, 2012, 02:55:21 PM »
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  • Some possible extensions (ConfirmEdit (needs configuring), Gadgets, Nuke, ParserFunctions, Renameuser, Vector, WikiEditor are bundled with 1.18):
    MsUpload - Vastly better upload interface.
    Lingo - Gives automatic hover text on a set of terms (can be configured to first appearance on a page). Would allow abbreviations to be used without risking confusing new users.
    SpamBlacklist - Excellent anti spam tool, allows us to copy over Wikipedia's banned URL list which should stop most bots.
    ImageMap - Allows clickable imagemaps. Would be very nice for a clickable technology tree image, for example. Not that many uses, but they are very good uses.
    Cite - Citations are cool. Not essential, but useful.
    CategoryTree - Improves Category page view, allows embedding of category trees. Non essential, but some uses.
    Poem - Allows a tag which preserves single linebreaks. Important for basename lists, for example.
    Replace Text - Special page for mass replacing text. Helpful for maintenance, but should be restricted to only a small number of users since mistakes are annoying to clear up.

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #34 on: December 04, 2012, 01:28:29 PM »
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  • Just found a link to http://alphacentauri.us/fac-tool/rate.htm. I can definitely implement that as automatically calculated by the template, and improve on it, for example by making different anti-ideologies larger or lesser penalties, being more specific with free facilities, tweaking social benefit boosts so that +1 industry is worth more than two unity scout 'copters or robust economy (having human made faction ratings to know how it should look will help a lot, so please head over to the thread and give input).
    « Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 03:43:09 PM by ete »

    Offline Green1

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #35 on: December 04, 2012, 07:52:28 PM »
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  • I used to be a sysop of a wiki site. One of the things you really have to watch for is that wikis tend to attract twenty tons of spam. Wiki spammers are far worse and more persistant than forum spammers because most wikis are more liberal about links. Wikimedia anti-spam tools are in my opinion much weaker. The only reason the large wikis get away with it (ie: wikipedia, rational wiki, conservapaedia, ED) is merely the sheer number of editors watching the pages day and night with auto-protect buttons ready. More link-tos = better SEO for what ever rip off spam site, so they do have motivation.

    I would suggest if you do put a wiki up, you limit the ability to edit to folks who request permission.


    Plus, sisko is right. Wikimedia requires it's own maintainence on top of your forum.
    I created and ran a fairly large wiki for over a year. Mediawiki has plenty of effective anti-spam measures (regex black/white lists for urls, a load of different capachas on edit or registration, and really easy ways to delete any spam), and should easily be configureable to use the forum's spam resistance (make the drone usergroup unable to edit, only a spambot which was able to spam on forum can spam there). Some wikis do not make best use of the anti spam tools available, which does, unsurprisingly, lead to spam problems. I can advise on (or, with access, help configure) ways to prevent almost all spam. Limiting to people who request permission is a totally unnecessary hurdle for editors and administrative burden.

    Yeah, now that I think about back then, our admin was a poor admin who never wanted to be around to do much and left us sysops to the wolves having to manually delete sometimes dozens of spam pages. I do not think the admins here would be that way. We were not able to play with the cool new anti-spam tools because our admin refused to, in his words, "be bothered" with having to "work". He even went off on a delete everything rage quit.

    I doubt the good folks here would show such inmaturity.

    Still, it was a pain back then.

    EDIT:
    Man, I enjoyed working on/editing/ and making that wiki look pretty. It was an ugly POS when I joined it, but towards the end it had really good articles that were mentioned on other forums. If AC2 had a wiki, I would definately pitch in. It would be useful stuff, too. Not just a poor man's copy/paste of the manual or Vel's SMAX guide.


    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #36 on: December 05, 2012, 12:17:46 AM »
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  • Yea, wiki's without someone around to handle the tech stuff (installing and configuring extensions mostly) tend to fall into disrepair.

    It would be excellent to have an active editor who already knows their way around mediawiki like you around from the start. Some ideas beyond custom/official faction profiles I've been thinking over:
    With not huge effort (a few regex find/replaces to sort out links, maybe manually setting up titles), I should be able to get the modified datalinks into a format we can mass import into the wiki automatically. That'll give us a good base, even if it will still need some work.
    I found that Vel's guide was released into public domain, so we could use parts of that if we wanted to. But if there are people willing to write specifically for the wiki (faction descriptions, etc) that would be cool.

    sisko, I'm going to be fairly inactive for some time around christmas, but if you can get it running (even with no extensions/styling) by the 11th-12th I should have a few days to focus on setting it up.

    Offline Yitzi

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #37 on: December 05, 2012, 01:53:03 AM »
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  • Just found a link to http://alphacentauri.us/fac-tool/rate.htm.


    Link doesn't work.  Fixed link.  (You put the period inside the hyperlink, which of course makes it not work.)

    And scout copters are at least somewhat useful.  Robust economy is literally useless.

    I'd be interested in seeing a fixed version, as it might give some ideas as to what needs balancing among social engineering.  I know that industry is too powerful (I presume primarily due to crawlers, with a tendency toward small bases (and thus a need for a lot of facilities) causing substantial effects on that front as well.)

    Offline Green1

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #38 on: December 05, 2012, 03:54:55 AM »
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  • Yea, wiki's without someone around to handle the tech stuff (installing and configuring extensions mostly) tend to fall into disrepair.

    It would be excellent to have an active editor who already knows their way around mediawiki like you around from the start. Some ideas beyond custom/official faction profiles I've been thinking over:
    With not huge effort (a few regex find/replaces to sort out links, maybe manually setting up titles), I should be able to get the modified datalinks into a format we can mass import into the wiki automatically. That'll give us a good base, even if it will still need some work.
    I found that Vel's guide was released into public domain, so we could use parts of that if we wanted to. But if there are people willing to write specifically for the wiki (faction descriptions, etc) that would be cool.

    sisko, I'm going to be fairly inactive for some time around christmas, but if you can get it running (even with no extensions/styling) by the 11th-12th I should have a few days to focus on setting it up.

    I have looked at a few game wikis. One of the problems I found is it is really hard on some of the smaller ones to actually get to the info you need. Now, if it is a gigantic game with thousands of link-to pages like Wowwiki, yeah, you ca do it like wikipedia.

    However, for a smaller niche deal like this would be I think the front page should be like a Table of Contents-like structure. Under each anchor article you would have sub articles dealing with that topic. For example, you have a main Miriam page in ToC which would give all the canon info about Miriam. Under that though, series of all the articles we could find (or write) from strategy with Miriam to even commentaries on Miriam. Of course, lets not be dicks and DO give the original source and credit if it is not our own.

    Network Node factions would be the same way with comments on completeness, ridiculousness, and what theme it falls under.

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #39 on: December 05, 2012, 03:50:13 PM »
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  • Just found a link to http://alphacentauri.us/fac-tool/rate.htm.


    Link doesn't work.  Fixed link.  (You put the period inside the hyperlink, which of course makes it not work.)

    And scout copters are at least somewhat useful.  Robust economy is literally useless.

    I'd be interested in seeing a fixed version, as it might give some ideas as to what needs balancing among social engineering.  I know that industry is too powerful (I presume primarily due to crawlers, with a tendency toward small bases (and thus a need for a lot of facilities) causing substantial effects on that front as well.)

    Thanks, fixed. And yea, there's a lot in need of improvement on that, I think social engineering boosts are generally massively undervalued by it compared to other boosts. Will work on it when I can use a template to see how each change affects all factions.

    I have looked at a few game wikis. One of the problems I found is it is really hard on some of the smaller ones to actually get to the info you need. Now, if it is a gigantic game with thousands of link-to pages like Wowwiki, yeah, you ca do it like wikipedia.

    However, for a smaller niche deal like this would be I think the front page should be like a Table of Contents-like structure. Under each anchor article you would have sub articles dealing with that topic. For example, you have a main Miriam page in ToC which would give all the canon info about Miriam. Under that though, series of all the articles we could find (or write) from strategy with Miriam to even commentaries on Miriam. Of course, lets not be dicks and DO give the original source and credit if it is not our own.

    Network Node factions would be the same way with comments on completeness, ridiculousness, and what theme it falls under.

    mhm, for factions we'll definitely want a single page on each, with information, flavor, and strategy. I'm very keen on having single pages for secret projects, facilities, and techs though (if those are done on wiki rather than the official AC style site, which we'll discuss with people working on that), we can easily mass transclude them onto a single page as well, but single pages are easier to link to and it feels more comfortable to expand them. Also saves a huge page being loaded when you just want info on one, which is important on slow connections like mine.

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #40 on: December 20, 2012, 01:54:22 AM »
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  • I'll be on low activity from the 22nd till early January. If there's a wiki to play with by then (even a not very decorated one, or one without forum account connection, though pretty and bridged would be much better), it'll almost certainly become my main project for some time. This will be fun (I like wikis and I like AC), and give this place a potentially very useful resource which can easily be expanded by the community (important templates and policies will be set up, I've driven and personally done much of the work of setting up a fairly large wiki before).

    Offline Green1

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #41 on: December 20, 2012, 05:39:04 AM »
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  • A lot of us are on low activity as of late. Thinking again, probably the best service to the NN factions is to just break them all up in DL section and describe what the hell each is with the stats. Altering some of them with ALIENTREATY and such to make them more SMAX compliant if someone actually plays (with AI it does not matter) them would be a nice thing to do, too.

    Then again, at this date and age with a huge amount of 4xs taking off, not sure if that is a high priority. SMAX caught Civ 5 and Fallen Enchantress' lipstick on your collar. Do not worry, she will still be there to serve you mind worms when you get back.

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #42 on: December 20, 2012, 06:15:01 PM »
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  • Describing them and having them in a form which is searchable is what a wiki would make vastly easier, particularly templates. And open editing makes it vastly more maintainable/improvable. Splitting the downloads however would be a good idea, though it'd be good to standardize a few things first (faction version/naming could get really messy with multiple people editing their own forks). The text files having an on wiki version history would solve a lot of this.

    And it's not a high priority because it has to happen now, but it is a good idea to make happen soon if it's going to happen, because right now I don't have much in the way of projects which I really want to get on with. Take maximum advantage of this, and you'll get something really cool :).

    Offline sisko

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    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #43 on: January 16, 2013, 09:40:50 AM »
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  • ok. mediawiki 1.18.6 installed: http://alphacentauri2.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
    the bridge isn't working though.. or i am missing something obvious..
    Anyone else feels like it's time to fix the faction graphics bug?

    Offline ete

    Re: Indexing the Network Node factions
    « Reply #44 on: January 16, 2013, 01:28:42 PM »
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  • Excellent :)

    hm.. I'm not seeing the extensions which are meant to be bundled with 1.8 (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.18#Bundled_extensions) on the version page (http://alphacentauri2.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Version), wonder why that is. I'll put up an example faction page once Parser Functions (one of the bundled extensions) is enabled, since my template relies on that.

     

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