SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[lolada]

Looking at changes to SE. I am a bit bit confused, how do you get 3.0 weight for Green for early game for example? It has +2 EFF, +2 PLANET, -2 GROWTH. Its actually quite bad pickup especially since EFF is not as strong as before.

Some initial thoughts:

Police state: +2 Supp, +2 Pol, -2 Eff, -1 Ind - quite nice combo here for early game, like this one. Also interesting for Hive.. this -1 Industry will balance them a bit.
Democratic: +2 Eff, +2 Gro, -2 Supp, -1 Pla - quite balanced here, growth is great, Eff not as much as before and Supp really hurts so its not no-brain pick. -Pla is also annoying it matters. Overall good.
Fund: +2 Mor, +2 Probe, +1 Ind, -3 Res - quite good war pickup, Research penalty is bit hefty. Although I was a lot in Fundamentalist in some game, I didn't mind -2 : ). Probe team helps. This is actually really good pick on transcend since you are 95% of time in war.  Ind bonus is really nice to have.

Free Market: +2 Eco, -4 Pol, -2 Pla, -1 Probe - this might be now balanced gotta play a game. Its one trick pony: +2 Eco is obviously awesome, but then you have to use psych slider. Planet and probe minuses are quite a downside. Kind of like it at first glance. Its interesting since it hurts probe rating and with ton of money you want to use probe teams. Also -2 planet from -3 is likely good move since AI really struggles with worms.

Planned: +2 Gro, +1 Ind, -2 Eff, -1 Supp -  This might be new default go to pick in WTP mod for factions that do not pick Free Market.

Green: +2 Eff, +2 Pla, -2 Gro - If Efficiency is not strong this is really hard to pick since - 2 growth is annoying. Planet is nice when in war and having lots of units. So i guess this is lategame pick for green factions.

Power: +2 Mor, +2 Supp, +1 Gro, -2 Ind - Power is quite strong pick once you have enough units built - since building them at -20% is bad idea. Its kind of fitting that it has -Industry to make it hard to build facilities and secret project. Its interesting, like it. +Growth helps a bit offset prod penalty.

Knowledge: +2 Eff, +5! Research, -2 Probe - OK, this looks NUTS . As far as i know going over +5 works.. with +7 (as Uni..) you should have 70% cheaper research or am i wrong? I don't know about this it looks over the the top.. something like +3 was plenty strong. Maybe it works out, i might play a test game with University for fun. It may work - did you actually play the game with this bonus? I agree that research was no a great pick earlier compared to Wealth for example.

Btw can we do something about -2 Probe here (esp for University).. Its -4 for them and in general -2 probe kills AI due to nonlinear effects. I wouldn't mind having -1 Eco, or -1 Ind here instead with maybe -1 Probe. Zakh could also have -1 Probe at default since he's weak.. so he ends up with -2 total once he has Knowledge picked up. Other AIs seem to rarely pick knowledge (at least in earlier patches).

Wealth: +2 Eco, +1 Ind, -2 Mor, -1 Pol - this one was always nice pickup. I suppose its interesting because it clashes with Knowledge and Power. For example compared to Power its at -4 morale disadvantage so good luck in war. Knowledge is also more interesting with +5 Res.. if its not broken ^^.

Cybernetic: +2 Eff, +2 Pla, +2 Res, -4 Pol - This one feels weird to me - for example it really does not go well for The Cult and Cha Dawn - he is +Planet and Police themed and this has -4 Police. Cybernetic could have strong -growth. +Eff and +Res are fitting, I guess planet can go here.

Eudaimonic: +2 Eco, +1 Gro, -1 Eff, -3 Morale - AI likes to pick this one and its not as good for them as it looks like. I'd nerf this morale bonus to -2 since AIs end up on very green units lategame from my experience. I wouldn't mind +2 Growth here its future society after all. So lazy fat guys enjoying in life, still efficient, but hates fighting ^^.

Thought Control: +2 morale, +2 Pol, +2 Pro, -3 Supp - I used this one a lot - you sometimes pick this one for Elite units basically and tank the Support or balance it with another SE choice. Its strong for war. There's also Living Rafinery which give +2 Supp and helps tank this effect.  In a way I don't like this theme, but am not sure how to improve it. You somehow made it work with Cybernetic and Eudaimonic.. so i guess its ok.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Looking at changes to SE. I am a bit bit confused, how do you get 3.0 weight for Green for early game for example? It has +2 EFF, +2 PLANET, -2 GROWTH. Its actually quite bad pickup especially since EFF is not as strong as before.

+2 TALENT - that's how. 😁 Unfortunately, it is not shown on the SE screen. 😟 I should subscribe this in words (fixed now). Now looking at it I am thinking if I overdid this. Maybe just +1 should be enough.

Fund: +2 Mor, +2 Probe, +1 Ind, -3 Res - quite good war pickup, Research penalty is bit hefty. Although I was a lot in Fundamentalist in some game, I didn't mind -2 : ). Probe team helps. This is actually really good pick on transcend since you are 95% of time in war.  Ind bonus is really nice to have.

As you analyzed yourself, RESEARCH is no match for INDUSTRY - maybe twice of even thrice weaker. I have listened and increased overall RESEARCH values (both positive and negative) as this supposedly won't break the system much in general. The rest  of the effects are very good war combo. So extra tech penalty shouldn't matter. Even Believers will steal enough tech for them using military superiority.

Free Market: +2 Eco, -4 Pol, -2 Pla, -1 Probe - this might be now balanced gotta play a game. Its one trick pony: +2 Eco is obviously awesome, but then you have to use psych slider. Planet and probe minuses are quite a downside. Kind of like it at first glance. Its interesting since it hurts probe rating and with ton of money you want to use probe teams. Also -2 planet from -3 is likely good move since AI really struggles with worms.

I am sure about PLANET because 3 * 10% = 2 * 15% combat bonus now. Not for the rest of changes. Even though I feel it has too harsh POLICE penalty it completely prevented using this choice during the war in vanilla. Not so much now. This choice is very nonlinear and controversial so I would rather relay on play testing feedback.

Green: +2 Eff, +2 Pla, -2 Gro - If Efficiency is not strong this is really hard to pick since - 2 growth is annoying. Planet is nice when in war and having lots of units. So i guess this is lategame pick for green factions.

Hidden +2 TALENT. Sorry I didn't highlight this next to diagram explicitly. Again, I was trying to give it some early usage but maybe overdid it.

Knowledge: +2 Eff, +5! Research, -2 Probe - OK, this looks NUTS . As far as i know going over +5 works.. with +7 (as Uni..) you should have 70% cheaper research or am i wrong? I don't know about this it looks over the the top.. something like +3 was plenty strong. Maybe it works out, i might play a test game with University for fun. It may work - did you actually play the game with this bonus? I agree that research was no a great pick earlier compared to Wealth for example.

Again, current opinion is RESEARCH is not that powerful and game breaking as we both agreed. I have removed hidden tech cost modifier. So University doesn't have their +20% hidden bonus anymore neither other factions get hidden inherent penalties. Now RESEARCH cost exactly as advertised on SE screen. This also makes it slightly weaker. So, I guess it won't break it much. After all everything researched is going to be stolen by others anyway. So this advantage is kinda quasi temporary. We'll see.

Btw can we do something about -2 Probe here (esp for University).. Its -4 for them and in general -2 probe kills AI due to nonlinear effects. I wouldn't mind having -1 Eco, or -1 Ind here instead with maybe -1 Probe. Zakh could also have -1 Probe at default since he's weak.. so he ends up with -2 total once he has Knowledge picked up. Other AIs seem to rarely pick knowledge (at least in earlier patches).

-2 PROBE ruins the faction? I never thought that effect is too devastating in general. Fine, opponents can buy your bases twice as cheap but remember, subversion cost growths with number of bases subverted. So they are not going to buy twice as more bases, just 1.5 times more. And after that even happen that benefit runs out and puff - nobody cares about negative effects anymore. Besides, it is very short scale and it doesn't stack. So any more negative values add nothing to penalty. That is my understanding only, which may be skewed as any other.

Cybernetic: +2 Eff, +2 Pla, +2 Res, -4 Pol - This one feels weird to me - for example it really does not go well for The Cult and Cha Dawn - he is +Planet and Police themed and this has -4 Police. Cybernetic could have strong -growth. +Eff and +Res are fitting, I guess planet can go here.

Don't get it about the theme. It is almost how it is in vanilla. I just increased penalty a bit. May revert it back as well - no biggie. Negative GROWTH is an option here. However, then POLICE won't have enough negative numbers across SE choices and we really have to have them here and there due its quite long negative scale and +2 POLICE from Brood Pits later. So if take it off this one, we should reassign it to somebody else: Knowledge, Green?

Eudaimonic: +2 Eco, +1 Gro, -1 Eff, -3 Morale - AI likes to pick this one and its not as good for them as it looks like. I'd nerf this morale bonus to -2 since AIs end up on very green units lategame from my experience. I wouldn't mind +2 Growth here its future society after all. So lazy fat guys enjoying in life, still efficient, but hates fighting ^^.

I redistributed one GROWTH to Power. Extra one here would make reaching pop boom easier for native +1 GROWTH factions then. Not a big deal, though. One still need to collect quite a number of these bonuses to trigger a boom.
Keep in mind, though, that extra GROWTH requires some more of other penalties to balance it. If you fine with this, I can change it.

[lolada]

+2 talent green

I see.. maybe, you probably did not. I used to think Human Genome Project is great with its + talent.. i played with your mod and from what i can this + talent thing is really useful only very early on. As you expand and grow it turns into kind of invisible bonus, almost irrelevant due to super drones and base spam (at least on Transcend). So +2 Talent is likely not much better. Using +1 Talent to buff some weak group is mostly ineffective imo.

-2 PROBE ruins the faction?

From what I observed Zakharov is useless : ). The only game where he was good is one where he was isolated for a time and managed to get Hunter-Seeker. In one game Morgan subverted his 3 biggest bases next to HQ it was kind of sad. In general any AI clears him from the map pretty easily since they steal his units (this is serious power shift once this happens), his techs and then even his bases. And he gets wrecked by drone issues in general so he can't even grow as others -_-.

I believe any -Probe is quite bad for AI since everyone is using so many probe teams. Even losing them in battles is a pain because AI build very expensive advanced armored probe teams. AI often suicides combat units, even lots of base defenders (which can be exploited) to try to kill armored probes.

Research and other changes

Lets see how it works. I am really not sure about switching anything in future society, just presented some of my thinking there. It all seem to work decently so maybe no need to change it. -3 Morale Eudaimonia.. that really looked too harsh - check maybe some lategames I had impression AI is often stuck at very green morale.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I see.. maybe, you probably did not. I used to think Human Genome Project is great with its + talent.. i played with your mod and from what i can this + talent thing is really useful only very early on. As you expand and grow it turns into kind of invisible bonus, almost irrelevant due to super drones and base spam (at least on Transcend). So +2 Talent is likely not much better. Using +1 Talent to buff some weak group is mostly ineffective imo.

Extra talent is a huge early game bonus. Equivalent to +1 POLICE AND +1 SUPPORT combined! Yes, it deteriorates with the course of the game due to large cash flow and ability to channel it into psych easily. So, obviously, it help models those are quite weak initially but then grow in strength - like Green.

-2 PROBE ruins the faction?

From what I observed Zakharov is useless : ). The only game where he was good is one where he was isolated for a time and managed to get Hunter-Seeker. In one game Morgan subverted his 3 biggest bases next to HQ it was kind of sad. In general any AI clears him from the map pretty easily since they steal his units (this is serious power shift once this happens), his techs and then even his bases. And he gets wrecked by drone issues in general so he can't even grow as others -_-.

I believe any -Probe is quite bad for AI since everyone is using so many probe teams. Even losing them in battles is a pain because AI build very expensive advanced armored probe teams. AI often suicides combat units, even lots of base defenders (which can be exploited) to try to kill armored probes.

I agree to reconsider PROBE weight. Currently it is about as RESEARCH. Do you think it should be higher?

One reason Zakharov does bad is that his RESEARCH bonus is not really that amazing, as you proved yourself, and he has nothing else to use but all the penalties: -2 PROBE, extra drones, etc. Besides, his research priority is Discovery - that doesn't give him much super weaponry or infrastructure advantage.

Research and other changes

Lets see how it works. I am really not sure about switching anything in future society, just presented some of my thinking there. It all seem to work decently so maybe no need to change it. -3 Morale Eudaimonia.. that really looked too harsh - check maybe some lategames I had impression AI is often stuck at very green morale.

Very green in late game??? They what - do not build morale facilities at all? Anyway, adding one MORALE back will just turn them green instead of very green. No big difference.
My impression is strangely opposite. I mostly see AI commandos and elites running around. But well, let's see.

[MercantileInterest]

For making the AI smarter, consider adding a check so it starts guarding its bases with psi defenders once orbital insertions become available (either by pre-req tech or someone building the space elevator.) -50% combat on the turn your unit drops out of orbit is crippling against psi defenders. What I always do in multiplayer anyway when someone builds the space elevator.

I set bases to produce no default resources in the txt. 0-0-0. If you build on a mineral resource, this becomes 0-2-0. If you build on an energy resource, this becomes 0-0-2. If on a jungle tile, 1-0-0 but, if you build on a nutrient resource, this stays 0-0-0. Any idea why?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

For making the AI smarter, consider adding a check so it starts guarding its bases with psi defenders once orbital insertions become available (either by pre-req tech or someone building the space elevator.) -50% combat on the turn your unit drops out of orbit is crippling against psi defenders. What I always do in multiplayer anyway when someone builds the space elevator.

That is actually a normal strategy at any point in the game as long as PLANET advantage is better than weaponry advantage. It applies equally to attack and defense, obviously.

I set bases to produce no default resources in the txt. 0-0-0. If you build on a mineral resource, this becomes 0-2-0. If you build on an energy resource, this becomes 0-0-2. If on a jungle tile, 1-0-0 but, if you build on a nutrient resource, this stays 0-0-0. Any idea why?

Never observed it. Send me a savegame.

[MercantileInterest]

Here are the files.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Original feature. Base square nutrient resource in is not added to yield but doubles base nutrient yield instead.

[MercantileInterest]

Ok but why? In your txt, you set base nutrient yield to 2.

2+2 = 2x2

Puzzling to add a feature that makes no difference.

[bvanevery]

For making the AI smarter, consider adding a check so it starts guarding its bases with psi defenders once orbital insertions become available (either by pre-req tech or someone building the space elevator.) -50% combat on the turn your unit drops out of orbit is crippling against psi defenders. What I always do in multiplayer anyway when someone builds the space elevator.

In my mod, the AIs tend to make a lot of mindworms and spore launchers if the game goes to late game, because conventional weapons and armors in my mod are rather expensive the more powerful they get.  Unfortunately the "asymmetry" game mechanic of SMAC makes the indigenous life form the One True Weapons Platform of the game.  They have almost no disadvantages, the main one being merely that they're slow.  On land that can be solved with rails, and with enough Formers, anything can become land.

I never think about Psi Defense armor because I don't see why it's useful compared to building a mindworm.

I've noticed that Spore Launchers are extremely effective air defense against Conventional Missiles.  The missile doesn't get to just blow them up, it has to fight psi combat.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

MercantileInterest,
Setting population nutrient intake to 1 is an interesting idea. It solves highly unequal base growth speed on rainy and moist land. You should advertise it yourself and don't wait until someone accidentally discovers it.
😁

Currently the base on moist land grows slow initially and even slower with each new citizen. It cannot develop decent mineral output just because there is not enough food to exchange for minerals. Bases on rainy land grow faster initially and keep growing at the same rate regardless of size. Their nutrient output increases with size so there is a plenty of food to work forests and mines. They have decent mineral output that increases proportionally to base size. In this regard jungle is the most OP landmark of them all. It makes all tiles rainy plus one nutrient on top. There is so much food that it just has to be converted to minerals at accelerated pace to avoid overgrowing. Moist land base cannot afford to work even a single forest without halving growth speed and get their minerals from random rolling tiles only (= 0.5 minerals/pop). Rainy land base can afford extra forest per population (= 2.5 minerals/pop) and jungle base can afford a rocky mine per population (=4.5 minerals/pop)! So seemingly not so big 50% increase in farmed tile output (2,moist -> 3,rainy) results in enormous 400% increase in mineral output (0.5 -> 2.5). And even more for jungle bases. I believe this is too much of luck factor that needs to be mitigated somehow.
This is a big power of extra nutrients those can be converted into two minerals each.

Set citizen nutrient intake to 1 solves this problem. It benefits all bases but proportionally more to worst ones. High nutrient bases would grow even more but not that much due to ever-increasing growth demand. Whereas previously stagnated bases start to grow normally. Mineral intake disproportion lowers down to 2.5 -> 4.5 (80%) - 5 times less disproportion!

This setup also allows to nullify base tile input altogether as MercantileInterest did exactly. That removes unfair bonus to smaller bases, which, in turn, instigates need for growth. Enormous empires consisting of barren size 1 bases becomes less attractive.

That, of course speeds up the whole course of the game significantly and may uncover some other nasty problems but I am willing to try it out.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Ok but why? In your txt, you set base nutrient yield to 2.

2+2 = 2x2

Puzzling to add a feature that makes no difference.

Why what? This is ORIGINAL VANILLA game feature. Not mine! I cannot explain why it is designed like that just disassembled it for you.
And yes, it is not noticeable when base nutrient input is set to 2. Maybe somebody's sloppy programming and testing. You can experiment with different base nutrient yields and discover this dependency yourself.

[MercantileInterest]

Sorry about that. I somehow interpreted 'original feature' as 'this is my original idea! Great feature isn't it?' Looking back, obviously not what you said.

[MercantileInterest]

Kind of you to say. Hadn't thought of nutrient intake 1 in those terms. Simply think that faster base growth but slower colony pod production better mimics what an actual settlement of an alien planet would look like. Fights ICS too. I also set farms to add +2 nutrients rather than the old +1.

Colony Module,        Colony Pod,     0, 8,28, -1, None,

That comes out to about a hundred minerals to build a colony pod. No small amount but you'll be growing faster and you start with four formers, so it's not as big a number as it would be with other setups. You also start with two other colony pods, for a total of four. These extra units are made possible by your ini file. (There's not room to add them all in the faction txt.) Am very grateful you made this possible. Without these bonus units, early game would be tedious.

Another advantage of bases growing much faster than before is that it reduces the competitive edge to pop-booming, while still leaving the option intact. This new growth dynamic also fixes the planetary transit system.

Your reactor cost reduction formula is also extremely useful. Before, fusion reactor made my overpriced colony pods far cheaper, thereby ushering in an age of mass cities anytime anyone discovered the tech.

For your mod, if you reduce the nutrient intake to 1, you might want to try increasing this line:

10,      ; Nutrient cost multiplier

You have a better grasp of game mechanics than I do but I'm trying to capture a slightly different experience. You should try multiplayer sometime. A lot of game components start to make sense. You put deep pressure hull on your ships. Cloaked hovertanks are the most absurd fun. Psi armor and weapons become very useful.

Scattered thoughts but I'm grateful for all the options you've made available.

[Tayta Malikai]

No small amount but you'll be growing faster and you start with four formers, so it's not as big a number as it would be with other setups. You also start with two other colony pods, for a total of four. These extra units are made possible by your ini file. (There's not room to add them all in the faction txt.) Am very grateful you made this possible. Without these bonus units, early game would be tedious.

Does that mean that these lines

Code: [Select]

; Spawn this many extra formers/colony pods for every computer faction at the game start.
free_formers=0
free_colony_pods=0apply to all factions contrary to what the comment says?