SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[bvanevery]

One key aspect of balancing out Needlejets is to put Air Superiority well before Doctrine: Air Power so that factions without Air Power can fight Needlejets.

What's so important about that?  I'm very unsympathetic, I really don't care.  I'm perfectly good with you playing the role of the Spanish Communists being bombed into oblivion by the German Luftwaffe doing their weapons tests on you.  Why should you get this big early leg up?  At least when it's the AI attacking, they do like what, kill a few Formers?  Who cares?

If it's multiplayer, well I'd fully expect you to steal a tech.  And if you can't do that, you should die.

I balanced my Needlejets by making the chassis more expensive.  My weapons aren't cheap either.

[lolada]

In WTP i find needlejets more like support - "pick-off stragglers" units. In vanilla they could be used to eradicate whole factions; compared to that they are much weaker and cheap infantry is way better for attacking bases now. 
Thing is that defenders having territory and base bonuses means needlejets have hard time attacking armored units. Even if they kill armored unit they need to heal few turns afterwards.. and AAA generaly stops them in tracks. Tim recently made Aerospace Complexes cheaper (120 => 100 minerals) that might help somewhat.

Air units (Copters included) seem good for sniping  lightly armored units or ships mainly, but risk dying to interceptors vs advanced AIs.They can snipe armored units in the open in general, but will likely need to heal.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

That's right. Actually, now, after some amount of play testing by myself and others, it seems that air force is severely crippled by Aerospace Complex and AAA and overall defense bonuses in general. I am thinking to reduce the cost of air unit to make them at least somehow economically effective on far range and as air support for land and naval assaults. Otherwise, they will be quite unusable which contradicts WtP paradigm.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Here the proposal.
Air chassis cost same as speeder. That makes them cost same as unarmored speeder units.
AAA bonus is 50%. It is plenty enough with AC and air/land interceptors in play.
Even with these changes air inits will be still slightly less effective in direct assault but they will keep their use in reconnaissance and early response. Also in disputing enemy supply lines and land improvements add usual.

For example, one can sacrifice few stained aircrafts to destroy a single strong boat next to weak base to win time for reinforcement.

[Hagen0]

Air units, in particular helicopters are the primary way to lay waste to a faction by destroying formers, crawlers and infrastucture. They also defend your territory from raids and probes. There is no need to attack a base with them.

[bvanevery]

Here the proposal.
Air chassis cost same as speeder.

I don't get why anyone would ever embrace a paradigm where a plane is as cheap as a ground unit to make.  It makes no real world sense at all.  Seems to me to be totally a game mechanical fiat, that someone wants to shift the game around to pew pew pew lotsa lotsa Needlejets.  It should be a military simulation, not a bunch of Real Time Strategy toys.

[lolada]

They could certainly use a buff. I wouldn't mind having them +25% attack in the open like speeders. Cost reduction is ok as well, but I am not sure how much they should be buffed.

They are currently ineffiient at attacking for example armored crawlers or probes. AI Probes are heavily armored and hard to kill. Crawlers are armored as well - but usually not with latest variant - but they are often placed on rough terrain. Formers tend to be easy targets - but there's risk of interception.

[bvanevery]

Interception is things working as designed.  I don't see any problem with that.  If someone's managed to get Doctrine: Air Power same as you, and can now build Air Superiority and Air Defense units, well power to them.  And maybe they can produce enough planes, even if they're godawful expensive, to wipe your own air force out.  That's called playing a game / winning a war.

I admittedly haven't been playing WTP since I consider the early mindworm fighting to be broken.  I don't know if your comment is arising out of Formers winning combats against planes way too easily.  I would consider that a problem.

The other major problem with planes is they provide near perfect cover for advancing ground units.  I don't know if Thinker Mod or WTP "fixed" that.  You could win the game by spamming Gun Needlejets if you were so inclined, to cover for other ground troops.

[Nexii]

Yea the cover issue and related zone of control issues are just part of the engine dating back to Civ2. The ground units under an air unit should always be attackable, although the air unit shouldn't suffer collateral damage. Similarly it's silly that air units exert zone of control. It's bad enough you can't go under them

[lolada]

Yeah bvanevery has nice points. I don't mind interceptions, AI is doing ok job - actually my recent two games i am having trouble maintaining any air control : D Drones AI is spammer i basically gave up trying to hurt them with Needlejets and just focused on countering their units.

The problem is basically Needlejets can hardly kill anything - attacking bases is most often a suicide. They can pick of units but as you said they get hurt even by formers - early weapons more, later they do clear them nicely once you get for example fusion laser (10). They still have trouble killing anything at latest armor - even in open ground - speeders for example are better with +25% and cost less - speeders can kill 2 units per turn. They are better in killing formers for example - but they lack range. For base attacks cheap infantry 10-1-1 or something like that is way better - AI tends to spam aerocomplexes and there are AAA units. Its likely good idea to nerf AAA to 50%-

Even with buff they won't be good at base attacks - so they seem to be mostly harass unit - they should be at least decent at that role. Even many ships have AAA..

[Hagen0]

This is a consequence of the odd armor/weapon equality. A armored former sitting on forest with a sensor beats any combat unit in the game unless you are willing to commit atrocities. The implementation of planes in Smac is fundamentally overpowered. If they are merely useful as harrassing unit that is just fine. (Also note that war in Smax is rarely profitable anyway.)

[Nexii]

Could try allowing artillery ability on air units ;P

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Also note that war in Smax is rarely profitable anyway.

If you are referring to vanilla SMAX then I beg to differ. I found it the most profitable endeavor specifically because attacking is very economically effective. Even in WtP it is still profitable against weak or unprepared opponent. Even if you managed to conquer only 1/3 of neighbor territory by throwing everything you had on them and then forged a piece with them you already have twice more bases and will overpower them sooner or later. The problem is that it spoils your relations with others. So you likely won't meet any other unprepared faction.

[lolada]

Could try allowing artillery ability on air units ;P

I actually tried to create one but couldn't  Overpowered?

[Hagen0]

Also note that war in Smax is rarely profitable anyway.

If you are referring to vanilla SMAX then I beg to differ. I found it the most profitable endeavor specifically because attacking is very economically effective. Even in WtP it is still profitable against weak or unprepared opponent. Even if you managed to conquer only 1/3 of neighbor territory by throwing everything you had on them and then forged a piece with them you already have twice more bases and will overpower them sooner or later. The problem is that it spoils your relations with others. So you likely won't meet any other unprepared faction.

It's a matter of opportunity cost. Even if you can win a war your situation would almost always be better if you had developed peacefully instead.