Author Topic: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini  (Read 2831 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2019, 01:29:55 PM »
eco warrior
eco warrior

MY 2277.  After a 2 day break, I come back to the game wondering how to resolve it.  Taking out the Pirates is the obvious course of action for the Spartans, but I don't like stabbing allies.  Now however, they've given me a sort of causus belli, their wanton disregard for anybody else's land on Planet.  I'm not going to openly declare war, but I'm going to stop being nice about my Values choices.  It's time for some Knowledge.  I drop to -2 POLICE, so police no longer do me any good.  I adjust my budget to 30-30-40 to put more into my Labs.  I also really want Advanced Ecological Engineering so I'm switching my research focus to Build.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2019, 02:29:37 PM »
MY 2279.  Someone called an election.  We vote Svensgaard out of office in favor of Lal.  It occurs to me that Launch Solar Shade can be a solution to the Pirates' current level of ecological transgression, but that requires someone to actually learn it.  Probably me.  Well, we'll see if our relationship holds up long enough for me to do that.  Right now I'm starting to build lots of AAA ECM Silksteel garrisons.

MY 2280.  I buy Nanominiaturization from the Cyborgs.  Svensgaard has some techs as well, and nobody else does, so I feel I have to talk to him.  Because of my Knowledge he has cooled to Noncommittal.  He's gone to war with the Usurpers again, and this is a make it or break it decision for our alliance.  I'm not ready to fight Svensgaard, so I go along with his war plan, as it costs me nothing.  That makes him Cooperative.  When I go to trade tech with him, he actually gives me Planetary Economics, making me unwilling to backstab him.  I guess I will build some Hybrid Forests, as those will definitely help my cities get bigger.

MY 2282.  I get a 5 critter fungal pop.  That city showed 9 eco-damage 2 turns ago.  Then it went to 0 when I rushed a Hybrid Forest in a different city.  This turn it's doing 29 eco-damage, for 34 minerals.  As my Police Scouts aren't useful anymore, I throw them as fodder at the worms.  Not sure why I had a merely Disciplined one of those, but it actually prevailed against a Spore Launcher, despite my -3 PLANET rating.  I need to make sure I've built Command Centers in my cities when making garrison units.  I forgot that I didn't manage to get the Command Nexus.

Chairman Yang runs into me at sea.  I only have a Treaty with him nowadays.  He wants me to make war with the Caretakers and I refuse, as I have a Treaty with them.  Then he wants Fusion Power, which of course I don't give him.  Then he wants me to loan him money, which given that we have Political differences of opinion, is a bad idea.  So he declares war on me.  My Isle isn't tough enough with -3 PLANET to fight him, so I try running away.

I contact Lal to make war on Chairman Yang, his next door neighbor and natural enemy.  He refuses.  What a pusilanimous wimp!

MY 2283.  My Isle survives the attack of Yang's ship.  I was about to go pick up a few remaining supply pods on the north pole, but it has sunk!  Now there's just 1 floating in the water.  The "grab the pods" game is pretty close to over, and I got the lion's share.

I have 1 city in danger of sinking so I rush a Pressure Dome.  Are the Pirates doing anything ecologically responsible?  Well, they've built 18 Tree Farms.  No Hybrid Forests or Centauri Preserves, even though they could.

new river system and inland sea
new river system and inland sea

MY 2284.  Several squares in Pirate territory get turned into water all at once.  I have a new river system leading to them, which I presume is one of those deadly rivers I can't develop.  I wonder if the Pirates' penchant for Borehole construction will prove to be self-limiting after all?

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2019, 03:24:17 PM »
MY 2285.  Another fungal pop.  Eco-damage numbers in my cities seem to be misleading.  I don't tend to get official notice of a problem until after a pop.  Meanwhile the Pirates and Cyborgs are researching a lot of techs.  This is messing with my plan to just buy techs from them before popping my Artifacts.  They keep working on new Secret Projects, preventing trade.

MY 2289.  Svensgaard expressed Ambivalence and wanted me to loan him money.  I refused.  I mean hey his energy reserves are 2367, he clearly doesn't need the dough.  So he ended our Pact.

soon to be my 1st sea base
soon to be my 1st sea base

MY 2291.  I lost a Rover Former on the square just south of this base that's sinking.  There's no river there, so I find it weird.  It's definitely in an area with a lot of sinking though.  I still have not gained Advanced Ecological Engineering.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2019, 03:57:30 PM »
MY 2292.  I research Advanced Ecological Engineering.  Look at the Pirates' techs, I'm way behind them.  They're just basically going nuts, and probably my only advantage is better armor.  I switch back to Conquer focus.  The Cyborgs are going pretty nuts too.

MY 2297.  I'm starting to get the feeling that the Pirates' production advantages, have simply put them in an "I get to win the game" mode.  Are they really Passive enough to never declare war on me?  I've saved up 2000 credits, but I'm not researching any techs that would give me Secret Projects to complete before them. 

Manifold Nexus is dying
Manifold Nexus is dying

MY 2298.  I am remembering from a previous flooding game, that once the Manifold Nexus sinks, it doesn't work anymore.  I need to get down there to shore that up, if I'm ever going to possess it.  Only just now have I finally been able to make Super Clean Hover Formers.  It may not be basically possible to save it, and I think in practice that means, AI Borehole production greatly exceeds the rate at which one can afford long distance interventions in the Manifold Nexus.  If I had settled it when I first discovered it, possibly by now there would be a productive city sitting on there, which could do its own terraforming.  But I remember other priorities going on back then.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2019, 04:08:09 PM »
Pirates should be pursuing Wealth in my mod
Pirates should be pursuing Wealth in my mod

Ok, this I actually consider to be a serious problem with Thinker mod's AI handling.  In my mod, the Pirates' compulsion is to choose Wealth.  When anyone picks a social value other than Wealth, they get on that faction's case, break Treaties, declare war, etc.  Those behaviors are still in effect this game.  That's why we're not allies anymore.  Yet, here is Svensgaard pursuing Knowledge, the very thing that he lambasted me for pursuing!

This is unacceptable on several grounds.  First, it destroys the narrative.  Second, it destroys the diplomatic balance.  Third, it's a serious gameplay balancing problem.  In my mod I have the Pirates pursuing Wealth, and their faction bonuses and penalties balanced in a certain way, because it works.  I have tested this stuff for many months to ensure that it works, to ensure that it doesn't become a completely sucky game experience.  Well know I know why the Pirates AI is going gangbusters in terms of tech.

In other test games I've seen Deirdre go Socialist (my version of Planned) instead of Green.  This is similarly unacceptable.  It's also counterproductive to her mindworm combat.  She needs the offensive bonus that the extra +2 PLANET provides.  I've spent months playtesting this sort of thing, running AIs vs. AIs, to determine whether the Gaian AI needs more military oomph or not.


Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2019, 04:55:38 PM »
MY 2300.  I research Homo Superior, which in my mod gives the Empath Guild.  Which has long since been completed by the Pirates, underscoring that without a willingness to be vicious and dastardly, my pursuit of tech is completely pointless.  It also gives Thought Control so I switch to that.  I change my budget to 40-30-30 to de-emphasize Labs.  Perhaps with 298 credits/turn, I can do total thought control on some Pirate cities?  I definitely have enough defense to risk it.

MY 2301.  I switch to Power, which in my mod gives an additional +1 PROBE, bringing me to the max of +3.  I haven't found a reference for whether this will actually reduce my subversion costs though.  It's easier to take over a base if the defender has a negative PROBE rating, but there are no PROBE penalties in my mod.  I think probe teams are overpowered and not making anyone gratuitously weaker to them, partially rebalances them.

why not invade
why not invade

The cities that are accessible for invasion, aren't actually all that great.  They don't have any Secret Projects in them, for instance.  So, if this subversion campaign even works, it could be a long one.  I can't believe this joker has defended his city with only 1 probe team, the very thing stopping me from taking it over!  I back off and regroup.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2019, 05:49:57 PM »
MY 2302.  Amazingly, his Disciplined probe team attacks and kills my Elite probe team, which doesn't seem even vaguely fair or appropriate.  Both were fission units.  I kill it and then succeed at total thought control of the base.  It costs me 1400 credits or so.  I think about putting a Punishment Sphere on it, but I've now got a +1 POLICE rating so I just put some troops and police units in there.

cant win for cheating
cant win for cheating

Advancing my probe team towards another city, Svensgaard decides to have a little chat.  He declares war on me not because of my perfect subterfuge, but on the general principle of me choosing Power.  Well ok, I guess I'm going into steal techs mode then.  I don't actually have any offensive units yet, except for mindworms left over from my Green period.  I could go Green again, but instead I just use the mindworms to kill feeble Former and Crawler units.

I steal various techs, including Chaos weapons and the Dream Twister.  It's not completed yet so I rush it.

MY 2303.  With the Dream Twister completed, it's pretty attractive to go Green and really stick it to Svesngaard with my mindworms.  I accept the near zero population growth.  There's always the Children's Creche to prevent complete stagnation.  And, plenty of time to rebuild after I conquer him.  Finally, I might have eco-damage from all these Boreholes I'm taking over.

I encounter a serious Sensor Array problem going after one of his bases.  This wasn't a planned offensive.  I go after a what I think is a weaker target, only to belatedly realize it has a Sensor Array as well.  As I've already built a rail to its front door, I bring up a Command Chaos Squad that only takes 1 turn to complete.  It wipes out the defender pretty easily, and becomes Elite.



Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2019, 06:48:07 PM »
suffering Capitalist penalty while Green
suffering Capitalist penalty while Green

as Green as Kermit the Frog
as Green as Kermit the Frog

MY 2303.  WTH?  I'm getting -30% as though I'm still Capitalist, but I switched to Green this turn.  Saving the game.  Quitting.  Cold starting the game.  Loading.  Same combat odds.  I'll wait until next turn to see if there's a 1 turn latency.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2019, 06:55:27 PM »
Pirates had no concept of defense
Pirates had no concept of defense

MY 2303.  I blitz 3 Pirate cities using rails and Chaos Infantry.  I could have taken a 4th as a walk-in if I had had either a Hovertank, an extra probe team, or an offensive unit to knock out the armored supply crawler in the way, but I didn't have any of those.  I wonder if that city will still be vacant next turn?  It's still trying to build an AAA Probability Garrison prototype.  In my mod those are terribly expensive, both due to 3X prototyping cost, and large nonlinear increases in armor costs as they get more powerful.  The AI doesn't understand the concept of using a Skunkworks in this case.  I myself get my prototypes for free, an actual big advantage for the otherwise rather plain Spartans.  I'm only building plain Probability Garrisons because they cost 100 minerals as is.

I have stolen the techs for the Network Backbone and the Theory of Everything, but I don't think it's worth disrupting my military production for those.  Instead I've got almost every city making Probability Sentinels because it's clear that I'm going to need more garrison units.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2019, 08:01:39 PM »
the AI is a PITA with missiles
the AI is a PITA with missiles

MY 2304.  I really hate that the AI shoots missiles at poorly defended cities with Artifacts in them.  I lost 2.  If I didn't have so many, I'd be much angrier.  As it is, I just make a mental note not to include this kind of un-fun griefing in any game I ever design.  Wonder what happens if I give them some armor, or even AAA?

righteous Planet
righteous Planet

The advantage of being Green has asserted itself this turn.

your supply of plasma is overpriced
your supply of plasma is overpriced

I wondered if I could throw a Secret Project together by subverting these armored crawlers littering the Pirate landscape.  Nope!  Too expensive.  This is a job for relatively weak mindworms.  Had to destroy a Sensor Array first though, or they would have died.  That's not even Resonance armor, just plain Plasma.

My Chaos Infantry are mostly wounded.  As I switched entirely to garrison troops, I don't have any fresh supply of them.  One base I couldn't reasonably assault because of another darned Sensor Array.  Well, I only have my own modding to blame for making them so tough.  You really do have to pick them apart or else risk losing units on fruitless assaults.  Sometimes the lay of the land just doesn't allow you to get to the Sensor Array either.  So I go after a different city.

mindworm reactor disparity
mindworm reactor disparity

So a mindworm only has Power 10, and a fusion reactor unit has power 20?  I didn't think that's how psi combat worked.  Let's see if the odds calculator is just wrong.  I attack, and the Plasma Crawler dies easily.  Only 20% wounds to me.  Now I know not to take them seriously.

I don't have the strength to break through any of the nominally defended Pirate cities, so I send my Chaos units to be healed.  I do get a walk-in though.  Could have 2 if only I had a faster moving unit.

I go Fundamentalist.  Now I have +4 MORALE and +4 POLICE.  My income drops by 100 credits, but I will still make 50 credits/turn.

I'd like to build the Manifold Nexus but I didn't have a city free to do it.  Next turn I will.

Offline bvanevery

  • Emperor of the Tanks
  • Thinker
  • *
  • Posts: 6370
  • €659
  • View Inventory
  • Send /Gift
  • Allows access to AC2's quiz & chess sections for 144 hours from time of use.  You can't do without Leadship  Must. have. caffeine. -Ahhhhh; good.  Premium environmentally-responsible coffee, grown with love and care by Gaian experts.  
  • Planning for the next 20 years of SMACX.
  • AC2 Hall Of Fame AC Text modder Author of at least one AAR
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: validating Thinker mod's cost_factor in the .ini
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2019, 09:15:30 PM »
MY 2305.  The AI did it to me again.  It killed 2 more Artifacts.  I thought I had put appropriate AAA units in that city.  There's so much going on in these turns though, maybe I missed something.  I distinctly remember checking though.

The Pirates make up for it by suiciding most of its probe teams against my Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.  That was dumb of them, especially since a lot of those teams were armored, and previously defending some cities from my attacks.

I remember that I can Pillage with a Former.  I use that trick to take out a Sensor Array on the far side of a city, as I do have Speeder and Hover Formers.

the Pirates can't fight
the Pirates can't fight

I take even more cities that have almost nothing protecting them.  The AI isn't altering its production to deal with reality either.  There's really no point in continuing this exercise, as I know that every land base is going to be mine soon.  Every sea base touching that land will also be mine, just as soon as I make some Marines.  The Pirates might be able to threaten to Transcend even with the bases they have remaining after that, but I think to prevent that, all I have to do is try.

I don't think the Cybernetic Consciousness can mount credible opposition, as their bases don't look any better garrisoned than the Pirates were.

My conclusion is Thinker AI is strong at terraforming, but weak at fighting.  If it is given massive resource buffs at the beginning of the game, it can mask that weakness, but it's really obvious when it has to produce and grow at the same rate I do.  All the minerals in the world won't help it.

I did accomplish the original test objective, which is to validate that cost_factor works as advertized.

Now I think I'll see just how fast I can beat it militarily, with default settings.  Because making it produce and grow the same as myself, turns out to be way too easy.  I kept fearing it would have a level of force more like the stock binary, and it didn't.  Despite my 1st game where I got clobbered, maybe now that I know what it's good and bad at, it won't really be able to do anything to me.

 

* User

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


Login with username, password and session length

Select language:

* Community poll

SMAC v.4 SMAX v.2 (or previous versions)
-=-
24 (7%)
XP Compatibility patch
-=-
9 (2%)
Gog version for Windows
-=-
103 (32%)
Scient (unofficial) patch
-=-
40 (12%)
Kyrub's latest patch
-=-
14 (4%)
Yitzi's latest patch
-=-
89 (28%)
AC for Mac
-=-
3 (0%)
AC for Linux
-=-
6 (1%)
Gog version for Mac
-=-
10 (3%)
No patch
-=-
16 (5%)
Total Members Voted: 314
AC2 Wiki Logo
-click pic for wik-

* Random quote

Our ancestors harnessed the power of a sun, and so again shall we.
~Comissioner Pravin Lal 'The Science of Our Fathers'

* Select your theme

*
Templates: 5: index (default), PortaMx/Mainindex (default), PortaMx/Frames (default), Display (default), GenericControls (default).
Sub templates: 8: init, html_above, body_above, portamx_above, main, portamx_below, body_below, html_below.
Language files: 5: index+Modifications.english (default), TopicRating/.english (default), PortaMx/PortaMx.english (default), OharaYTEmbed.english (default), Aeva.english (default).
Style sheets: 0: .
Files included: 52 - 1620KB. (show)
Queries used: 42.

[Show Queries]