Turning SMAX back into strategy game

[bvanevery]

My take on SE balance is that it cannot be balanced at all across the whole course of the game.

I think I did it.  Mainly by insisting that every single +1 or -1 matters a great deal, and giving a very limited range of options so that you have to struggle to reach things like +3 SUPPORT or +3 PLANET for instance.

All effects are more or less declining with empire development in relation to overall economy.

I don't think the point is to have any SE effect have a great deal of value forever.  After all, you will eventually have an army large enough, or an income large enough, to do anything no matter what the settings.  But the rate at which you get to such an exalted state, is affected by early game SE choices.

[bvanevery]

Early ships are quite cheap, though. Which is not that bad, I think.

I think it's bad when paired with Chaos guns, which are doom weapons.  I mean really, they're 2x stronger than the predominant armor.  If it weren't for my production limitations the game would be over.  As it was, the Data Angels could do nothing whatsoever about me taking their 8 sea bases away.

Actually between my strength 4 armor and my +4 MORALE, the few ships they fielded to try to counterattack me, they'd just dissolve into nothingness against my hulls.  They did eventually steal my Chaos technology because of my lack of ability to plan my production.  I predict that a 2nd time around, knowing what things cost and what I'm in for, they'd never get the chance.  Not like I didn't have a bunch of Foil Probe Teams as it was, I was just very distracted and uncertain about how to use them.

I'm realizing that Industrial Automation came early enough, that I could have gone back to "old school" mining and supply crawling to deal with my production problems.  I don't tend to think about that lately because I.A. comes late enough in my mod that by then, you're probably not worried about your city's productivity.  It's more of a "finish Secret Projects" thing to me.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Now I think it is at least same or more valuable than Human Genome. Do you say pricing it 50-60 would be fair?

In my mod the Living Refinery costs 50, but it's a late game tech.  You have to be in space to get it, and that comes late game in my mod.  I think you have a point that it's not so useful to make people wait as long as I have, because by then, mineral production is generally much higher anyways.  But I also think you're giving this away way too early.

Good. I'll price it at 50.
As for timing, in my mod it comes at approximately 20% of tech tree. I wouldn't say it is too early because it takes some time to build it as well with current higher price. I can move it to ~30% but not later, I suppose. It loses value beyond about 2/3 of the game anyway so not much time left appreciating it.

[bvanevery]

It didn't take any time to build it in my game, but of course it wasn't priced at 50.

I'm about to start a 2nd test game.  To demonstrate how I can fully exploit weaknesses I'm now aware of. Shiiips!

Huge planet, 50%..70% water as before, average settings, Transcend, random opponents.  I draw the Believers.  Been awhile since I've played with inherent +2 SUPPORT.  Gotta watch the -1 PLANET and not be so quick to pop pods with Colonists.  I've got absolutely terrible land on a tiny island.  I'm the runt of the power graph.

Ok, so, it's really irritating when I'm on a crap start like this, it takes 12 turns to build 1 Forest, and then an Isle of the Deep shows up to drop a mindworm on that 1 Forest.  And I can't go attack it, because even though I have the Scouts to go do it, they are not strong enough to make an attack.  Instead I have to wait for the mindworm to attack me, which will inevitably result in my trivial victory.

I am modding this immediately to 8 turns to make a Forest.  12 is ridiculous.  I didn't object as much in my previous game, because I didn't get such an awful start my previous game.  While I'm at it, I'll change the Living Refinery to cost 50.

Thinking myself clever, I step forwards with 1 Scout, waiting for the attack and leaving my Weather Paradigm committed city with only a Former in it.   I neglected to check the stack.  There are 2 mindworms.  The 1st one dies against me, the 2nd one kills me.  Now my city only has a Former in it, and I've done nothing to stop the mindworm from tearing up the Forest.  Except mod the game to only take 8 turns to do it over again.  Joy.

MY 2152.  Someone else starts the Weather Paradigm as well.  I only have 3 cities, no food in the city producing the Weather Paradigm, it's undefended, and I haven't been able to put a mine on the mineral deposit yet.  I've kept the Explore, Conquer research focus to best understand how the AI would fare. Not well, no ships yet.  And I don't think the AI knows how to do a "land raising instead of ships" strategy either.

I suppose a saving grace is, everything has armor 2, even Formers.  So I bet my base is actually not "undefended", as the Former won't suffer a non-combat penalty. 

I don't know if it was intended, but I'm realizing that because I have to defend to win a mindworm fight, I won't be able to collect Planet Pearls from the fight.  This has consequences for mindworm "farming".  It depends what you think the goal is.  To make money, or to raise a PLANET friendly army and pop pods?  This quirk changes the former, but not the latter.

A more serious, consequential quirk is now that we're past the opening stage of native life weakness, I can't kill a Spore Launcher.  Not with 1 untrained Scout at least.  I do have extras I can bring up, but it will take a few turns.  This is likely to be a huge problem for the AI.  It is known to have problems dealing with Spore Launchers anyways, with 1 capable of impeding the colonization of an entire fledgling empire.  Doesn't happen in my own mod for some reason, something about what units are getting produced when.  But I did see a long term "Spore Launcher shelling" against the Cyborgs in my last game.  They did nothing about it, forever.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

In my mod the Living Refinery costs 50

It didn't take any time to build it in my game, but of course it wasn't priced at 50.

What is it then?

[bvanevery]

"My game" meant my play of your mod.  It was whatever you had it set at.  Looking it up now... it was 30.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

"My game" meant my play of your mod.  It was whatever you had it set at.  Looking it up now... it was 30.

Got it. Well, as I said, I'll set it to 50 in my next version.

[bvanevery]

MY 2155.  The Free Drones are in the game, and just started the Weather Paradigm.  They have their traditional +2 INDUSTRY bonus, a serious threat to me finishing this project in time.

I killed the Spore Launcher, but the interloping mindworm remains.  It of course ate the forest I worked so hard to make earlier.  It will take probably 7 turns before I can walk a Scout over the non-road squares and fungus to intervene.  That's with +2 SUPPORT and 7 Formers active, 1 of which is defending the Weather Paradigm.  I am still the runt of the power graph.  The Cyborgs are doing almost as badly as me, somewhere.

MY 2158.  The mindworm commits suicide against my Former in the city, ending the problem.  Now the only problem is getting a garrison unit up there before citizens revolt.  Although, not a problem, because nobody's ever eaten a thing except that forest for a few turns.  I complete my mine, but I bet I don't have 43 turns to finish the Weather Paradigm though.  It's also going to be pretty sad if I don't have ships by then.

Something to put in perspective about game costs, is even with my change, it takes 8 turns to plant a Forest and only 6 turns to remove Fungus.  I guess Earth trees suck?

MY 2166.  I research Doctrine: Flexibility, and the Peacekeepers blow away the Consciousness.  I'm no longer the worst faction in the game.

MY 2174.  I pop my 1st pod at sea, and get an Isle with 2 mindworms on it.  I'm realizing that they're going to come ashore, I won't be able to attack them, they will attack me twice or tear up land, and that could kill any 1 Scout I have defending my city.  Or not, depending on defense and training of the Scout.  I don't have a feeling for how trivial city defense is yet.  It may change as time goes on.  Well I've got a Disciplined Scout at that base, about the best I'm going to do, so we'll see.

MY 2175.  Surprisingly, the Isle sits at sea and doesn't move.  Perhaps because it's at the very bottom of the map.

MY 2178.  Cha Dawn shows up, makes war on me, drops a mindworm larva next to my city.  Odds readout says if I attack we're even.  Meaning in the real world, I lose.  This implies helplessness to pillaging in the face of mindworms.  Fortunately they landed on unused rocky terrain.

If Cha Dawn is prowling the water, sea bases are going to be vulnerable.

MY 2179.  Cha Dawn elects to attack a Former and takes 90% wounds in the process.  I finish it off.  I research Nonlinear Mathematics.  I can have Particle Impactors and I can go Fundamentalist.  I'm already at -2 RESEARCH, that would put me at -5.  Never learn anything again.  I'm thinking I'm not in that much of a war yet to be worth it.  But the AI would certainly do it, in which case, the fate of the Believers with this lousy start would probably be sealed.

This emphasizes to me that better map generation settings, are one of my mod's most important features.

MY 2183.  I find my 2nd Artifact, fishing it out of the water.  Once back to base, I'll have enough to insta-complete the Weather Paradigm.  This suggests a strategy of expanding my land by attaching islands next to me, rather than doing so many sea colonies.

MY 2187.  Using a multi-Transport convoy technique, I get the Artifact back to base.  I instantly complete the Weather Paradigm.  Simultaneously, Cha Dawn shows up with an Isle and lands a 4-2-2 next to that city.  Because everyone has strength 2 armor, such interlopers are hard to kill.  I have only just started to work on an Impact Skimship, because that is way cheaper than land units.  If they destroy my size 1 Weather Paradigm city, I will quit this game and declare the land to sea cost ratios unusable.  It is way too much production pressure on factions that get unreasonable starts.  I've got +2 SUPPORT, I shouldn't be having this level of difficulty for Chrissakes.

I disband a Transport and several Formers in order to complete my Impact Skimship by next turn.  Much will depend on whether they choose to attack immediately or pillage.

MY 2188.  They had 2 units, I didn't notice that.  A 4-2-1 in addition to the 4-2-2.  The 4-2-2 chooses to fry New Jerusalem, nothing I can do about it.  This isn't a strategy game, this is a show-up-and-grief-me game.  Yes I could have groveled when Cha Dawn first showed up, but no, I wasn't going to.  That's not a fun game.  It also didn't seem to be justified at the time.  Why should I grovel for 1 mindworm I know is going to die?

MY 2189.  New Jerusalem is gone.  Additionally, it healed the attacking 4-2-2 in the process.  Now it's likely to do it to another city, and again, nothing I can do about it.  I've got a 4-2-1 completed to defend the Weather Paradigm city, but a wild Isle with a mindworm is also inbound in that area.  Not something I triggered, just bad luck from someone else's unknown activity.

I move a Former forward, hoping it'll be attacked instead of the next city.  I take a chance and put my Green Impact Squad in the city as well, hoping that the enemy Speeder will go for the Former and not my new unit.  Technically I could use the Designate Defender option in a crisis like this.  However I think it's piss poor game design that such a tweaky thing exists at all, and I refuse to use it.  I shouldn't have to know obscure options and micro-micro manage a game to prevail in a battle.  If I lose here, it would spur me to quit this game and get on with writing a proper game in its place.

My Impact Skimship has a long way to sail around some fungus to provide any intervening artillery support.  I don't have enough money to rush the Recon Rover prototype, nor would that break through fresh armor in any event.  The point was to make the cost of an Impact Rover unit viable in the future.

I don't know what to do with my completed Sea Colony Pod, because of all the naval threats.  It's milling around exploring.  Very unsatisfying and very wasteful.

A small break: a sea supply pod completes a 4-2-1 I had just started to build.  So now I have the force to dispose of the aggressor units, if I can just corner them.

MY 2190.  The 4-2-2 makes the irrational choice of moving onto a Forest square without a road.  The 4-2-1 moved in a similarly pointless manner away from the front.  Did the AI get confused by something?  Old orders to move to New Jerusalem, which is now gone?

Meanwhile a pre-boil mindworm lands.  I have my doubts that can kill it, and I bet if I move next to it, it can kill me.  However I have no minerals left in the Weather Paradigm city, and I need to keep it from pillaging my Sensor Array and my Forest.  Standing on rocky terrain, with the Sensor Array next to me under the mindworm, might be enough defense.  We shall see.  To really stack the odds, I'll do some unit shuffling to get my designated victim onto the rocky terrain next to the river.  The victim is Disciplined, another hope for victory.

MY 2191.  The defense plan worked.  Mindworm gone.  The 4-2-2 moves foward onto a forest, which I'm now realizing isn't such a bad defensive measure because it does have armor.  It threatens 1 of my bases by open terrain.  I move a Scout onto a Forest in range of a Sensor Array, forcing hopefully a not as good fight for him, and preventing him from directly attacking my city.  He could go towards a 2nd city, but he can't attack it with full movement.  Meaning in the real world, he won't.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Something to put in perspective about game costs, is even with my change, it takes 8 turns to plant a Forest and only 6 turns to remove Fungus.  I guess Earth trees suck?

I've explained forest cost in readme. In short, I believe, it should cost about the same as a rocky mine with road since it gives same number of resources.

[bvanevery]

But a rocky mine with a road is completely useless to an early city.  You don't have enough food or population to take advantage of the thing.  Mineral restriction in the stock game is also not lifted until Ecological Engineering, and personally, I think that restriction is a very good idea.

A forest is useful to an early city, but you cannot grow with them.  That's their liability.  I agree that they can be considered too cheap as is, but tripling their cost is way too expensive.  They are not worth the same as a Condenser or raising terrain 1 level.

I've documented what it's like to be griefed by random factors in an early game, things beyond your control.  Make things too painful for people to do, and they start disliking your version of the game, I wager.  Granted, some people are actually looking for masochism, but I think most aren't.  There's a difference between being challenged and being griefed; the game designer must walk a line between those things.  If things are a drag to do, and then you get clobbered in ways you can't do anything about, that's being griefed.  A challenge is when you have the ability to react and overcome.

Things to consider: would someone new to the game like this?

Also, would a non-expert player like this?  Like they sorta know the game, they played it some in the past, they picked it up at GOG for $1.49 a few days ago, and now they're thinking about trying out your mod?  "Forests take 12 turns, WTF??!"  Well maybe they don't even notice it so much, or blow a gasket about it.  But what if they get bored because nothing is getting done... that's almost the worst way for mod interest to die, as you never really find out why someone lost interest and put it down.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Are you still using forests in my mod? If yes, then they are not overpriced.
Are you using rocky mines in my mod? If yes, then this is good as it is another viable option.
Do you sometimes decide whether to build forest or rocky mine? If yes, then I've achieved my greater goal: gave challenge to the player to find best option in current circumstances. Now this is not the competition of someone who knows exploits against someone who doesn't. Such competition is won even before game starts. My mod requires to beat AI with the thinking on your feet. I personally feel it every move I am playing it. And that is what I enjoy.

I can change it to 10 or 8 if you think it is better. For me it is largely irrelevant as even a single former per base still build improvements faster than base population growth. Even with these prices you still have free cycles to build connection road and other additional stuff.

[bvanevery]

Are you still using forests in my mod? If yes, then they are not overpriced.

I'm not playing your 1.0 mod anymore.     As I posted several posts ago, I changed the costs of forests to 8 and the Living Refinery to 50.  Call it 1.0+.

Are you using rocky mines in my mod?

I don't use rocky mines in anybody's mod, or game, until I've got Hybrid Forests and there's no other land for a city to work.  I am really leery of the ecological consequences of too many minerals.  I've been through too many mindworm debacles, too many floods.  Even when it's not a debacle but the occasional Rolling Rainy Farm being destroyed, that's work I have to do over again. I hand work every single square in the game.  If I have to do things over again, I personally feel the pain.

Do you sometimes decide whether to build forest or rocky mine?

Never.  The only reason to build a rocky mine is if it's sitting on a minerals bonus.  Of course I build those immediately, at the beginning of the game.  Otherwise, forests are always superior to mines.  In particular, a city with a big Nutrient bonus and a pile of forest, is worth way more than mines.

I can change it to 10 or 8 if you think it is better.

I have no doubt in my mind that 8 is better than 12.  I can live with 8.  That kind of price is not insane, given the advantages of a forest.  It's a matter of taste but it's not insane.

Also, counting the cost of building a road shouldn't be part of your thinking.  I have to build roads when planting forests too.  I build forests on flat terrain, either arid or moist.  That terrain may very well be where I need a road to go, and it's cheaper to build the road first, not later.  It is also cheapest to build roads on flat terrain anyways, only takes 1 unit of work.  Whether rocky + mine + road, or flat/rolling + forest + road, the comparison isn't just the resources.  It's the resources and having a road.  Roads are military infrastructure for conquest and defense.  Of course they should be mag tubes soon.   

For me it is largely irrelevant as even a single former per base still build improvements faster than base population growth. Even with these prices you still have free cycles to build connection road and other additional stuff.

It has been said that in my mod, the AI terraforms better.  There could be several reasons for that.  I wouldn't want to introduce anything in my mod that would reverse that trend, like make AIs waste a lot of time on forests.  You may not notice this sort of thing if you're using Induktio's Thinker .exe, as I understand he has more competent terrain AI.  But to the extent you want to reach a bigger audience, and not have the installation of Thinker as a hurdle to getting your own stuff installed and used, you might consider how your changes interact with the stock .exe.

I would also urge you to make improvements in the map generation settings.  Factions are being crippled by the status quo.

[bvanevery]

MY 2192.  The 4-2-2 continues to be a PITA, tromping around trying to threaten my cities.  I continue to follow with a Scout placed on favorable terrain to block this.  I do not have a Rover prototyped yet.  Realizing the inevitable danger to various Formers out and about, I disband 2 of them, and spend cash, to rush my Recon Rover prototype.  I also try to move a 4-2-1 into position to blow away the enemy's 4-2-1.  I predict it may step forward to mess with one of my sensor arrays.

In an expanding ocean radius around my island, I have not seen any Cult activity, nor settlements.  I am made to wonder just how far Cha Dawn came to bother me.  I have completed a land raise to a tiny island, creating room for 2 more cities, if I can just get these interlopers out of here.  I will have to rebuild the Formers as I only have 1 now.

MY 2193.  Turns out a "first issue" Recon Rover is enough to blow away a 4-2-2 on open ground.  I'll take it.  The 4-2-1 stops to pillage a farm that's not in use.  I stop building the Impact Rover because that city doesn't have enough minerals to get it done anytime soon anyways.  I will have to wait for my Recon Rover to heal, then corral and wipe out the last enemy unit.

A Unity Rover pops a pod and gets surrounded by 2 mindworms and a spore launcher.  What's the point in even attacking anybody?  I'll stand still and see how quickly I die.

A pod at sea sprouts an Isle.  It will head to my shore, but at least I have a ship in the area to mess with it.

I need to choose somewhere to rebuild a Headquarters.

MY 2194.  1 mindworm dies, 1 mindworm gets half wounded killing me.  I shell the Isle, wounding its mindworm cargo badly, but not affecting its spore launcher.

MY 2196.  The 4-2-1 steps forward and dies.  I start shelling the Isle from the safety of my city.  I learn Superconductor, which also makes the Living Refinery available.  I don't really need more SUPPORT though.  Expanding and rebuilding my damaged "empire" is a much higher priority.  The Cyborgs and I are still the runts of the game.

MY 2199.  The spore launcher is slowly killing my ship in port.  It's just tougher than I am, even though I thought under this mod I was supposed to have defensive bonuses in port.  The spore launcher already destroyed my Sensor Array before I could get the ship in position in port, that's part of the problem.  I don't have Formers to build a new one, due to all the damage I've taken from the Cult.  I have to leave.  Which means that chunk of forest I've been grousing about, is going to get destroyed again and I'll end up rebuilding it again.  Some other forest has spread into the area, but that particular patch is a coastal river square.  It's just rough being the geographical recipient of harm's way.  The land must be some kind of big funnel sending me everyone else's junk.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Yes. I was about to change forest to 8.
Here is new one.

[bvanevery]

MY 2204.  I meet the Consciousness, the other runt.  She wants to beat up Lal, the strongest faction in the game.  Based on the power grahp, I suspected he was sitting on the Monsoon Jungle, and I was right.  I agree with her, as I need both map intel and tech.  We trade stuff, I don't even worry about her getting ahold of the Living Refinery that I'm not going to manage to build anytime soon.  More important to get Probe Teams out of her.  She only withholds Biogenetics, the tech to make the Human Genome Project with.

I switch to RightTime 1.1.  I already had 2 of the changes.  The 3rd is a 5:4 Psi combat ratio.

I meet Domai.  He's weak too, just not quite as weak as us.  We trade a tech but he won't sign a Treaty.  I sell him Lal's frequency.

MY 2207.  The Isle that was bothering me decides to leave.  Of course another is coming to take its place.

MY 2227.  My lands are starting to resemble an empire, although of course I'm way behind.  I've gotten a Bureaucracy warning.  I have rebuilt a Headquarters in my big minerals + Weather Paradigm city.  It is centrally located for the islands I'm bridging to.  I am prototyping Missiles now.  I'm wondering why I have ok weaponry and armor, 6 and 4, but not the ability to make artillery.

Details the creeps

the creeps

MY 2228.  Domai finished the Empath Guild a few turns ago.  He calls an election in favor of Cha Dawn.  Zhakarov sells me a map of Cha Dawn's territory, and then I sign a Pact with him.  He gives me Industrial Automation for free.  The Planetary Transit System has already been built.  Cha Dawn is south of Zhakarov and north of Lal.  I pass the free tech to the Cyborgs in exchange for Ethical Calculus, and I loan them money.  They provide a map of Free Drone territory.  The Caretakers are northeast of me and north of the Drones, but none of my friends have a comm frequency.  Domai is Seething, I don't want to talk to him!  I send a Laser Skimship towards the Caretakers to meet them.

Wealth has a -1 EFFICiency penalty!  I don't understand why.  In my mod it gives a +1 EFFIC bonus.  In this mod, also -2 MORALE.  In exchange, a mere +1 ECONOMY and +1 INDUSTRY.

Supply Crawlers are really expensive, they cost 80.  That won't affect the completion of Secret Projects, as whatever the expense, it transfers directly to the project.  It does affect crawling mines and so forth though.