Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: ete on April 28, 2014, 10:35:12 PM

Title: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 28, 2014, 10:35:12 PM
As part of the SMAC in SMAX project we need to decide which factions to include by default. The original 7 are obviously in, but there's another two drop down menus available (#NEWFACTIONS and #CUSTOMFACTIONS) with 7-8 slots each (not sure if #NEWFACTIONS can support 8).

I'll list the things we could do with these, we'll debate and rank them, then figure out which plan has the most support. First off the main community faction sets which could be showcased

Dio's alternate original 7 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4102.0) (latest version on last page of topic)
Remake of original 7 with the aim of using each SMAC bonus/penalty exactly once
+Fits very well with SMAC flavor
+Original/based on early art scratch drawn bases/logos
?Factions have a very large number of bonuses/penalties each
?Mix of power levels, most reasonable but some extreme builders
-Less new playstyle diversity due to being similar to originals

JarlWolf's faction set (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3751.0) (latest version in download?)
A set of 7 original factions
+Interesting bonus combinations
+Fun/extreme playstyles
+Lots of custom art
-/+Significantly stronger than normal factions (useful for making the game more of a challenge or giving yourself an advantage if you want it, but hard to mix fairly with normal factions)

Sigma's faction set (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3819.0) (see wiki page&download for most recent versions)
A set of 7 original factions
+Original, but all very plausible/fitting and ideology based
+Generally well-balanced with original factions (one or two likely would benefit from a balance tweak, but most are very carefully balanced)
+Interesting playstyles with generally clean/short bonus lists
+Lots of custom art

ariete's (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1257.0) are also an option, but they include alien factions which pure SMACers probably want to steer clear of. Similarly SMACified versions of Kilka's Poke factions would be cool, but I'm guessing more players would like one of the above sets (and iirc they would need SMACifying still). Building something out of the assorted one off factions people have made is also an option, but since we've got an abundance of quality cohesive sets it's probably best to go with sets.

There's also several faction sets heavily based on the original seven: Alternate official factions (http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/Custom%20Factions.htm#Alternate%20Offical%20Factions) with name/graphics swap,  Genderswap (http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/Custom%20Factions.htm#Alternate%20Gender%20Factions) both by BU which have the same bonuses and penalties but can be allow multiples of the same faction to fit into the same game more smoothly, and a pack which has aquatic set to on so each starts in the sea by Geo (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=198).
 
So, thoughts on which faction sets we should bundle? We've got three menus, one is going to be normal 7, which leaves two gaps. We don't need to fill both and whichever is not selected will still be playable with simple alphax changes, and having the SMAX set in default still an option if people want.


Maybe rank your preferences? Available sets:
Blank set
SMAX 7
Dio's
JarlWolf's
Sigma's
ariete's
Kilka's
Genderswapped original 7 (BU)
Name/graphics changed original 7 clones (BU)
Aquaticized original 7 (Geo)
7 Network Node factions
7 massively overpowered factions (Annihilators, Exterminus, Overmind, etc)
Other (please specify)
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 28, 2014, 10:49:53 PM
Currently, I'm thinking something like:
1. Sigma's
2. JarlWolf's
3. Dio's
3. Aquaticized original 7
5. Kilka's
5. ariete's
7. 7 Network Node factions
8. 7 massively overpowered factions (Annihilators, Exterminus, Overmind, etc)
9. SMAX 7
10. Genderswapped original 7
11. Namechanged original 7 clones
12. Blank set

Sigma's and Jarl's are both awesome original sets of factions which are fairly well polished. Sigma's is my top choice because I do love balance, but Jarl's is still really cool and a great way to give yourself worthy opponents. I'd also be happy with Dio's, it's mostly not making my top two because the playstyles overlap a lot with the defaults so it adds less diversity to the game than other options (plus the unavoidable faction bloat which comes from using every option at least once in seven factions), but perhaps for most people fitting well with original feel is the top priority and that's fair.

Aquatic is /really fun/ and I wish I could have this higher, but the other faction sets are probably more important. Kilka's are not afaik all available in a SMAC ready format, and while they're cool, I'm guessing people into pure SMAC flavor would prefer more standard factions. ariete's seem less polished than my top choices and include aliens, but are still options. NN pack has potential, there are enough factions with really interesting ideas for it to work, but they need some revising and I'm not going to be around enough to do that properly in the near future. SMAX is what they SMACers mostly want to avoid, and Blank set or clones is just a missed opportunity imo.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 10:52:56 PM
The aquaticized original 7 set is by Geo, if we're thinking of the same thing.

Also, you're rigging the contest.  :P
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 28, 2014, 11:07:50 PM
Could well be, but Aquaticized more clearly convey's the purpose of the set. Similarly I used genderswapped/namechanged for your alternate clones of the original seven rather than your name, because it conveys the purpose of the set effectively. Credit would of course be given if they're chosen, but having clear useful names for this poll seems reasonable.

withdrawn response to rigging before there was a :p in the above post, when it seemed a lot more serious
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 11:15:42 PM
I think rigging the poll is impolite.  I'm not accusing you of malice or even doing it on purpose, but it's incredibly easy to tell which options you think less of - no credit, no details, no links, stuck at the bottom like an afterthought.  C'mon man; I'm not imagining this, and you can do better.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 28, 2014, 11:23:08 PM
Also, I'm sick and grumpy today, so please don't take it too much to heart.  I'm just sayin' and I'm not mad.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: JarlWolf on April 28, 2014, 11:49:24 PM
Given im included in this I can't really vote; but I agree with your top two choices and Sigma's is much more complete then mine.

The Wanderers of Chiron still need to be polished up but their basic concept is there; and to be quite frank Sigma has a similar faction that in my eyes is close to what I envisioned the Wanderer's to be in some regards.

In my eyes I see Sigma's factions very cohesive with my own; they both can fit into each other's lore and are very lore friendly in my eyes, or at least lore fitting.

I based my factions off of a more progressed futuristic story of the SMAC/X timeline; and Sigma's I believe was definitely similar to that as well.

Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 29, 2014, 12:24:51 AM
@BU: I've added a paragraph about the modified original 7 packs and credited it, plus added some links. You're not imagining that I put more effort into discussing/analysing the ones I thought were moderately likely to win and actually needed more than a line of explanation to understand, but that was simply a choice of directing my energy to where it seemed most productive, not an attempt to influence the poll unduly. I should have included links at least, that's a useful and actionable suggestion, and the extra paragraph would have been better to include from the start, but believe me when I say I was not attempting to rig the poll (note that my equal third favorite had no link or explanation because I doubt it'll win and the name sums up what it does). Hopefully with the changes made it's at least a bit more to your liking?

@JarlWolf: You're welcome to give your opinions/list despite being in this (same goes for Dio, Sigma, ariete and all the faction pack makers). It's not a straight vote, just a discussion with some preference ranking to make it easier to skim over people's opinions.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Nexii on April 29, 2014, 12:28:54 AM
I'd say blank set and make a guide / easier way to swap them in or out, if possible.  I know some things are being worked on regarding this.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 29, 2014, 12:36:43 AM
It's pretty straightforward to swap factions around in SMAX, but having a handy list next to #CUSTOMFACTIONS would be nice. Bear in mind that even if we include a bunch of defaults in #CUSTOMFACTIONS you only need to swap out the defaults for whatever other customs you want, including some bundled factions does not in any way remove the option of using others.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 29, 2014, 12:51:01 AM
On reflection, I wonder if the alt. gender versions might have more appeal than the splinter clones.  Of course, I would want that selection of Monster factions for tough opponents.  As I posted recently, we need someone to collect and post a set of monsters to Downloads.

But the only opinions that really count, I think, are those of the X non-fans at/for whom the project is intended.

In the end, of course, it's all really easy to fix in the alphax.txt anyway, should the decision of the team not be to the user's liking.  We might ought to consider including the lot with the mod, along with FACTION README instructions for changing the #NEW FACTIONS and #CUSTOM FACTIONS lineups...

[Ninja'd.  Great minds think alike.]
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: JarlWolf on April 29, 2014, 04:25:39 AM
If we are going to make a bundled faction pack, I think it should include the following:

Mine and Sigma's, the Monsters, some of Ariete's and some of Kilkakon's in its raw form (To promote both their packs, if people like their work they can add more with specific expansion packs,downloads) and the alternates of the original factions.

The original alternates are very well crafted and with Sigma's, the Monster pack and my pack with handpicked ones of Ariete's and Kilkakon's, I think that would be sufficient. Pick the most unique or balanced of Ariete's and maybe 2 or 3 of Kilkakon's just to show some samples.

Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 29, 2014, 04:40:54 AM
Kil's would need adjusting for compatibility; he made them to go with his extensive modding.  There is already a compatible version of the Realm of Light faction that he made for the GotM.

PG versions of his?
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 29, 2014, 11:55:50 AM
I'm thinking it'd probably be best to keep the download size down for any the factions which come bundled with SMAC in SMAX, faction packs can be fairly big. I'd like small default autoincluded pack to give people a taster of the best customs, then a large download with a much wider selection for people who liked the first taste. If we include Jarl's, Sigma's, ariete's, Dio's, Kilka's, and a bunch of monsters by default that's 42 factions, and that's if we don't put any of BU's or the aquatics in (with them it's getting on for 70). That's a huge download, and I think it should be kept separate from the basic patch (especially considering this forum's download system tends to break/be very unreliable for files that big). It should exist, but imo be an optional extra.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 29, 2014, 03:55:46 PM
That sounds right; agreed.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 29, 2014, 09:25:17 PM
I'd go for 'blank' as well. Let the Player Preach his/her Particular Prey of Factions. It's only a little work to type seven faction labels in the alphax.

I never thought, all those years ago, the aquatized factions would still be around. :o
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 29, 2014, 09:32:38 PM
Of course they're still around.  They're awesome.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 29, 2014, 10:23:13 PM
My vote goes for:

1)  SMAX factions minus the two alien factions (who would probably crash the game). E.g. all five and then twice blank-blank. Not sure if this is possible. For me, SMAX factions are not the problem, on the contrary, more options in setup is a good thing (but they don't have adequate AI + the alien factions are doubtful).

or - equally as good, if not better

1) All blanks. Man can choose his fate.


2) It's hard to agree on a superior package from the mods. In general, I am surprised by their quality (I should try them I guess), but they seem to follow different aims, sometimes more role-playing, sometimes usage of all capacities, sometimes revamp of original factions. None of the packages appear flawless to me, to the point to give it green light and promote it at the expense of other ones. If community wishes to put a 7-faction package in, I let others to decide.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 29, 2014, 10:41:16 PM
diessa?
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 29, 2014, 11:07:56 PM
@kyrub: I doubt aliens will crash the game, the easiest way to remove aliens is just take out the factions so there's unlikely to be the need for any changes which would cause incompatibility. The SMAX 5 is something I'd neglected to put on the list though, worth considering.

@Geo/kyrub: Bear in mind that even if it's easy to edit factions into alphax, having defaults bundled means that players have access to new factions without having to specifically find out about/find and download them (or fiddle with alphax at all), which probably means a lot more playtesters and an automatic demonstration of the custom factions for people. Additionally with SMAX custom faction handling it's equally easy to swap out default factions as add factions into default blank slots, so does not particularly save player time. The main tradeoff is that having default blank makes the download smaller, and makes the game appear more clean, which are both points worth considering but it'd also be cool to showcase some factions.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 29, 2014, 11:19:26 PM
Our community is a modding powerhouse, after all; I like the idea of promoting the guys' stuff this way.

ete, a link in the README to the appropriate place in the AC Wiki is a must, no matter what else we do, I think.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 30, 2014, 02:52:47 AM
There is some indecision within my post, but I want to see how things develop before placing my "vote." I agree that the choice of secondary factions to appear beside the primary, original factions is an important one because it represents a decision that we need to make about what we want to highlight. Do we want to introduce players to the modification community? Do we want the SMAX factions to remain (more) visible? Do we want to "reboot" the setting to provide a sense that is familiar, yet fresh? Do we want to leave it at the original factions?

Sigma provides factions that have developed backgrounds, motives, and abilities. I appreciate that they take many of the original faction's characteristics and combine them less stereotypically. For example, the religious faction is less of the stereotyped Christian crusader. However, the quality between the factions is inconsistent. House Satori, in particular, is influenced too much by feudal Japan, to the point that it is a caricature. Similarly, I am weary of the possible balance issues of some of the unit and ability bonuses. It would need to be tested and, perhaps, modified based on the results.

Dio provides factions with tested, careful bonuses that cover many areas of the game. I would be interested to see what another pass at naming and some thought to leader biographies and texts would result in. I want to play with him mod, so I may come back to this entry at a later date. This option, with attention to setting, could become the strongest for me.

One of the reasons I like SMAC is that it took existing social movements and reproduced them in familiar, yet different ways. As a result, JarlWolf's direct allusions to Communism (e.g., lodges with the hammer and sickle on them) detract from the atmosphere of the game, which is one of the reasons for this project to exist. Similarly, part of this project is removing aliens as an immediate factor in the game's universe, so ariente's factions and options that retain aliens are out of the scope of my interest.

Seven permutations of the existing factions is an option, alongside blank, that would be safest. The graphic updates to the original seven would be an option that would interest me, in particular. Seven aquatic factions would be fun, but does anyone remember/know what the state of balance was with the faction bonuses while everyone was at sea (and had the +1 mineral bonus)?

My top three preferences, at this point, are Dio, Sigma, and graphically updated Originals (plus having the SMAX human factions in the custom pool). Dio's remain under development and Sigma's should be revisited. Ultimately, it may be best to leave the middle menu blank for a first release. We have used the logic of having the broadest possible point of entry into this project, so it makes sense to just focus on the originals. Perhaps the "hybrid" version of this modification could have one of the alternate faction sets included with it? If that, or something similar, is the case, I suggest that we wait until Dio has developed some of the lore of each faction and/or Sigma's work has been evaluated for tone and balance.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 04:59:01 AM
I've published a mod in the other thread that makes almost all of the mechanical and online help changes necessary to the game. With the changes I've made, Aliens will not crash the game, however, they will not be capable of talking to the human factions until they have social psych (the humans will not be able research progenitor psych) and will not be able to win by building subspace generators (though I could re-enable them without affecting the human factions).

The game balance for the SMAX factions is also upset because a number of abilities and facilities are no longer available. Aquatic factions are less viable because the bonus sea resources facilities are gone, data angels might be broken because the covert ops center (their free facility) is out, the cult are missing their brood pit and the extra alien life too.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Nexii on April 30, 2014, 06:51:20 PM
Isn't it a bit strange to say alien factions don't belong but custom human ones do in SMAC?  If going for the feel of the original? Remixes or reworks on the original 7 faction bonuses/penalties I can understand more.  Or is it more the gameplay mechanic of 2 alien factions that are not in the council and locked in war that is less appealing? 

It's a good point diessa raised - although one could say Spartans are based on Earth's Spartans as much as a communist faction could be based on communist Russia.  There are ties back to Earth with all the factions as there should be.  Perhaps the symbolism could be toned down - but the ideology could remain.  Seems fairly similar to Yang's beliefs though at a glance.  I think where the focus needs to be on not so much on where the custom faction comes from - but where they are headed as humanity evolves.  This is why the original seven were more compelling - their beliefs were explained through the tech/SP/facility lore.

There isn't a whole lot of tech space, though some could be made by clearing out the SMAX 5 quotes and alien quotes/techs.  Not sure how everyone feels about the SMAX 5 remaining.  Personally I'd like to just see one really well done faction that could fill all that space...since it's about 10-15% of the total blurbs/etc.  But that would be heading away from SMAC and more to another mod entirely.

Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 30, 2014, 07:36:50 PM
None of the new factions would have tech/faction blurbs, and all of the SMAX specific techs/facilities are going to be removed so unless you removed SMAC original blurbs (which is not going to happen) there's no room for their quotes beyond dialogue and the faction text blurb.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 30, 2014, 08:38:56 PM
Something that doesn't seem to be mentioned sofar (haven't throughly read all the posts), is the possibility to use the SMACX slots for the somehow improved SMAC factions to be used as AI opponents to the human player.
For instance, enabling more governor flags (Explore/Discover/Build/Conquer), or +talent (easier drone control for the AI) or something else that doesn't immediately glares the player in the face.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 30, 2014, 08:41:27 PM
That's not a bad idea at all.  Buffed originals for opponents.  ;b;
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 30, 2014, 08:46:31 PM
Too bad a free crawler at the start of the game won't do the AI much good. Those start with the independent flag as well, and I can't see an AI rehoming them to their starting base.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Sigma on April 30, 2014, 09:01:39 PM
Quote from: diessa on April 30, 2014, 02:52:47 AM
There is some indecision within my post, but I want to see how things develop before placing my "vote." I agree that the choice of secondary factions to appear beside the primary, original factions is an important one because it represents a decision that we need to make about what we want to highlight. Do we want to introduce players to the modification community? Do we want the SMAX factions to remain (more) visible? Do we want to "reboot" the setting to provide a sense that is familiar, yet fresh? Do we want to leave it at the original factions?

Sigma provides factions that have developed backgrounds, motives, and abilities. I appreciate that they take many of the original faction's characteristics and combine them less stereotypically. For example, the religious faction is less of the stereotyped Christian crusader. However, the quality between the factions is inconsistent. House Satori, in particular, is influenced too much by feudal Japan, to the point that it is a caricature. Similarly, I am weary of the possible balance issues of some of the unit and ability bonuses. It would need to be tested and, perhaps, modified based on the results.

Dio provides factions with tested, careful bonuses that cover many areas of the game. I would be interested to see what another pass at naming and some thought to leader biographies and texts would result in. I want to play with him mod, so I may come back to this entry at a later date. This option, with attention to setting, could become the strongest for me.

One of the reasons I like SMAC is that it took existing social movements and reproduced them in familiar, yet different ways. As a result, JarlWolf's direct allusions to Communism (e.g., lodges with the hammer and sickle on them) detract from the atmosphere of the game, which is one of the reasons for this project to exist. Similarly, part of this project is removing aliens as an immediate factor in the game's universe, so ariente's factions and options that retain aliens are out of the scope of my interest.

Seven permutations of the existing factions is an option, alongside blank, that would be safest. The graphic updates to the original seven would be an option that would interest me, in particular. Seven aquatic factions would be fun, but does anyone remember/know what the state of balance was with the faction bonuses while everyone was at sea (and had the +1 mineral bonus)?

My top three preferences, at this point, are Dio, Sigma, and graphically updated Originals (plus having the SMAX human factions in the custom pool). Dio's remain under development and Sigma's should be revisited. Ultimately, it may be best to leave the middle menu blank for a first release. We have used the logic of having the broadest possible point of entry into this project, so it makes sense to just focus on the originals. Perhaps the "hybrid" version of this modification could have one of the alternate faction sets included with it? If that, or something similar, is the case, I suggest that we wait until Dio has developed some of the lore of each faction and/or Sigma's work has been evaluated for tone and balance.
Appreciate the input on my old work!

Since I "finished" my faction set (it still needs a lot of polishing and testing) my life has changed fairly drastically. I moved to a new state, got married and all sorts of other things have taken precedence over this. And happily they're still going great! That said I absolutely do not have the availability anymore to actually dig back into the old factions, so I'm considering them to be open source and anyone who wants to dig into them to improve them is more than welcome to!

Concerning House Satori, I had a strong concept in mind when I was devising them, but when it came to actually putting those ideas into text documents, they kind of fell short, so as you pointed out they wound up being tonally inconsistent in comparison to other factions in the set. Their ideology is nowhere near as crystalline as the other factions, a fault they share, I think, with the Genarchs, who are simultaneously my most ideologically insecure faction and, in the tests that I was able to do, by far the most overpowered.

Were I to redo the faction set I'd probably wind up seriously rewriting House Satori, and completely reworking the background and ideology of the Genarchs.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 30, 2014, 09:05:03 PM
Quote from: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 04:59:01 AM
Aquatic factions are less viable because the bonus sea resources facilities are gone.
Funny. I thought that would actually make Pirates fair and balanced, forcing them to grab some land.


Buffed opponents? Isn't it boring? And governor flags aren't going to cut it, they will be far less important in next AI patches. Also, enabling all of them means enabling nothing, like all colours together give white.

Maybe the question is, what should the extra column offer? For me it is:
a) either "variety close to official version" = SMAX factions / blank
b) or "really clever variety" = a very good (probably not too extravagant) package of 7 factions.
I am ok with this, as long as there is community consensus behind this. Maybe a few people can discuss how to improve one of the packages (Sigma or Dio seem frontrunners) and overcome its feeble points?
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 30, 2014, 09:45:43 PM
Sigma, I was wondering if you were still active in this community. Welcome back! I'm glad that you've replied in this thread. Are you interested in further feedback? I'm content with replying to your thread. One thing in particular that I love about your factions are the leaders and the texts they write. They're well written and represent an international spread.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 30, 2014, 10:04:36 PM
@Buffed factions: Has some potential, but for it to be done really well each faction would have to be carefully looked at and upgraded, which is not a quick/easy project. Having "silent" buffs may end up confusing more players than we'd want though, and as kyrub says to give a notable advantage you need more advantages than those settings could provide. And I'm guessing that buffed defaults would get less use/add less than new custom factions (Jarl's is a readymade set which both adds the "really tough opponents" and new/well made factions if people want scary big factions). Overall, maybe (and worth making as a separate project perhaps), but I think we've got better options which are ready now (could potentially have tweaks, but they work fine).

@kyrub: We've got three menus to work with, so could add two packs of seven while keeping the default SMAC ones. Using one and leaving one blank is an option too, but other than download size there's not much disadvantage to putting two sets pre-loaded.

And I'm happy to thoroughly look over Sigma's current versions for balance stuff+make tweaks if they're wanted, which seems moderately likely (likely toning down Genearchs a bit as main goal, look closely at a couple of others)? Comments and input from others would of course be welcome. Jarl's still active and would probably be very happy to have comments and suggestions about his factions in his thread, same goes for Dio.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 30, 2014, 10:11:15 PM
I think the key question the vanilla-only fans need to decide on re: pre-installed faction sets is: how different are we comfortable with?  Given the whole point of the project, what would suit us best?

I would say variety brings freshness to an old game -the very reason I took an interest in custom factions and making them in the first place- but then, I'm not the target audience for this mod, so my opinion doesn't matter/count.

Leaving everything beyond the original seven set blank would have the advantage of making the random faction function useable for those as don't want anything but the original seven...
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Nexii on April 30, 2014, 10:16:44 PM
Of course if aquatic is too weak in SMAC, you have a lot of options to mod:
- increase default sea resources or sea terraforming resources
- increase their bonuses relative to land factions
- decrease foil/cruiser chassis cost
- eliminate N penalty for mine (helps sea more than land, IMO)
- enable sea terraform options like Borehole
- increase sea movement speeds

I wonder - would it be possible to have random select be without replacement (i.e. can't get duplicate faction)?  That and/or being able to select which factions could be randomly taken out of the whole pool?  Perhaps this is a bit much, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 30, 2014, 10:55:54 PM
Re: How much different
I like faction variety quite a lot and I share your view on freshening the game. (For me, it is the alien theme that has gone wrong in SMAX plus mediocre new stuff elsewhere.). On the other hand, offering factions in an official release of our hybrid requires more careful approach, since you can easily alienate a player with many extravagant or extreme options (my own experience with big mods in other games).

@ete
Ah, good to know. 2 sets are much better than one.
There are more candidates, I just picked those that got a primary vote. Jarl's package is obviously well crafted. I think those 3 could be well included in the download, not so sure about putting there more, but that can be decided later.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 30, 2014, 11:00:45 PM
Well kyrub, unless more SMAC-only fans pop up, it seems to me like the decision about including factions ought to be up to you and diessa...  Am I missing anyone?
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on April 30, 2014, 11:43:45 PM
A mockup of how the factions area of alphax could look (with a basic guide to using custom factions)

Code: [Select]
; These are the default 7 factions
#FACTIONS
GAIANS,   GAIANS
HIVE,     HIVE
UNIV,     UNIV
MORGAN,   MORGAN
SPARTANS, SPARTANS
BELIEVE,  BELIEVE
PEACE,    PEACE

; ***Using custom factions***
;
; To make a faction available from the faction select menu simply copy the appropriate faction text name from the below lists into
; either #NEWFACTIONS or #CUSTOMFACTIONS and remove the preceding "; ".
; Note that each menu can only contain up to 8 factions at one time.
;
; For a detailed database of all custom factions visit the AC2 Wiki: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Factions)
; For over 150 more factions please download the ultimate faction pack: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4221.0
; To talk to the creators or get feedback on your factions visit the AC2 modding forum: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?board=13.0
;
; **Available custom factions**
;
; *SMAX factions*
;
; CYBORG
; PIRATES
; DRONE
; ANGELS
; FUNGBOY
; CARETAKE
; USURPER
;
; *Sigma's factionpack*
;
; technos
; ect
;
;
;
;
; *JarlWolf's factionpack*
; crimson
; ect
;
;
; *Dio's factionpack*
;
;
;
;
;
; *Other factions*
; fixarians
;
;


#NEWFACTIONS
technos
more
more
more

#CUSTOMFACTIONS
crimson
more
more
more

Old one for reference:
(click to show/hide)
You see how with this setup it's actually kinda easier to see how to add new factions if there are some defaults showing you how to input them?
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
If people use one or other of the mod managers, there's no reason why we can't ship multiple faction packs.

The only issue at the moment is that both mod managers work by completely replacing any changed file, which is nice enough, but not ideal for something like a faction pack where you only want to change the pre-selected factions.

I think Ford is working on this, though. (I have no idea if he's ok with being called Ford rather than Ford Prefect)
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 01, 2014, 12:32:29 AM
I was asked about Geo's aquatic version faction set - I ended up having to search through my own collection of factions and zip them up.  http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=198 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=198)  -For them as wants to check them out, or even play with them.  It's all but the aliens and Sven.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on May 01, 2014, 12:39:57 AM
Thanks, BUncle.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: ete on May 01, 2014, 12:42:54 AM
Quote from: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
If people use one or other of the mod managers, there's no reason why we can't ship multiple faction packs.

The only issue at the moment is that both mod managers work by completely replacing any changed file, which is nice enough, but not ideal for something like a faction pack where you only want to change the pre-selected factions.

I think Ford is working on this, though. (I have no idea if he's ok with being called Ford rather than Ford Prefect)
alphax provides a pretty easy way to swap custom factions and faction packs around. Mod manegers are needed for mods which change a bunch of text files and the .exe, but perhaps not necessary for this? The main cost to extra factions is download size, which is hard to mitigate and significant beyond a relatively small number of faction packs, which is why I think we should include no more than three faction packs (21 factions) in the default set, and point people towards the big collection of 150+ factions (which includes geo's, BU's and a lot of others) if they want more.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 01, 2014, 12:46:41 AM
Agreed.  A taste only, if the SMAC-only types like.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: kyrub on May 01, 2014, 01:46:06 AM
I really don't think my vote should constitute 50% of decision force. I never played any of these packs. Take it with a pint of salt. On the other hand, this is quite simple to change later, based on user's reactions. So let's not pretend it's so important.

My choice for best fitting basic arrangement in hybrid SMAC would be:
Aquatic pack of 7 original factions, with different graphics and a slightly modified Sigma's factions pack.
This combination seems strongest to me in several ways. First, it brings one of the best feature of SMAX, e.g. the aquatic setup, in play. Aquatic is the feature I always miss when I play SMAC and I wished to try my nous on its AI. Second, it combines traditional and innovative in a nice way, so every user may find what he likes. Traditional comes in flavour of completely same, albeit aquatic factions. Innovative is offered with new Sigma's factions with interesting and settled lore, flavoured texts and new SE agendas. Third, the combination of more aquatic and land based factions offers large potential for different setups (like 4 factions land-based, 3 aquatic, or 1 versus 6 etc.), which seems great for variety of play. While aquatic may be less powerful than original SMAX, it will be either played by all factions, either the player chooses it for different game scenarios, or to weaken his own starting position. All of these variants seem very interesting and I'd like to play them, maybe with some of Yitzi's options on top.

My tied second choice are Dio's alternate pack or BU's Alternate graphic pack (unsurpassed in genre). Though I admit my eyes are too much fixed on the first combination as an ideal, not because of greater quality, but for the "best fit".

Well, that is my uninformed opinion. Dixi.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: JarlWolf on May 01, 2014, 04:25:38 AM
Yes; I am fairly active enough in community and would be fine answering questions/providing help when or where needed-

Though I really do need to kick up on a few projects and catch up on them... Will have to do over the next little while.

Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Sigma on May 01, 2014, 04:42:19 AM
Quote from: diessa on April 30, 2014, 09:45:43 PM
Sigma, I was wondering if you were still active in this community. Welcome back! I'm glad that you've replied in this thread. Are you interested in further feedback? I'm content with replying to your thread. One thing in particular that I love about your factions are the leaders and the texts they write. They're well written and represent an international spread.
Please feel free to dredge up my old faction thread. I'd be very interested in a discussion on how to improve their performance and balance.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on May 01, 2014, 05:07:25 AM
I am a SMACer.... but I haven't played those modded factions before.
I honestly don't care too much as long as the alternatives are balanced. 
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 01, 2014, 05:10:51 AM
You mean SMAC-only, no X?  You get a vote, then, IMAO.
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Kilkakon on May 01, 2014, 03:12:24 PM
My odd thoughts and summary:

I'll be publishing my cities and so on for people to use soon. Possibly Saturday as I don't have any plans to be out for the day.

I have like, 2-3 favourite NN factions that once revamped could be cool if used as replacements for SMAX factions.

Personally, I don't think that my pokewilly factions fit in a SMAX pack.

I do intend to release Acolytes and Tomorrow fully complete if anybody's interested though. :)
Title: Re: Default faction sets for SMAC in SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on May 03, 2014, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
If people use one or other of the mod managers, there's no reason why we can't ship multiple faction packs.

The only issue at the moment is that both mod managers work by completely replacing any changed file, which is nice enough, but not ideal for something like a faction pack where you only want to change the pre-selected factions.

I think Ford is working on this, though. (I have no idea if he's ok with being called Ford rather than Ford Prefect)

I plan on working on this.  I'm trying to come up with a good idea for the gui.
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