Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Kirov on August 24, 2013, 05:13:48 PM

Title: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 24, 2013, 05:13:48 PM
I still have a feeling that I forgot a lot of SMAC gameplay since the last time I was really really into it, so figured maybe what I miss is some brainstorming/strategy discussion about specific approaches to gameplay. I also noticed we don’t really do that a lot around here. For starters, I’d like to ask you about any unconventional tricks and gimmicks you developed or came across in SMAC. Something non-obvious, that would take certain time for a newb to come up with – a non-standard combination of vehicle body and chassis, an exploit (not abuse) of a specific game rule, an unusual tech beeline to grab something off – virtually anything you wouldn’t find in the game manual or average guide. It may be faction-specific, situation-specific or general. It may be also crazy and rarely used, just to throw your opponents off balance.  I’ll give you a few examples I know, most of them well-known, so that you see what I mean:


- for Morgan, garrison your bases with support-free probe team on infantry chassis with Armor 2, to protect both against regular attacks and probes (it doesn’t work as the police, but you probably run FM anyway)

- for Sparta, run early FM and keep scouting for mind worms, as you have the upper hand in attacking native life anyway

- when under FM, set aside one base and keep it at population 1 (change the worker into a doctor); transfer some crawlers and army there and suddenly you can wage extensive wars without a single pacifism drone (if you don’t use the kyrub’s patch, build also the Children’s Creche there); later in the game you can use Punishment Spheres for the same purpose)

- build infantry transports and use chains of them to quickly deliver infantry units to the battlefield

- do anything you can to rack up the eco-damage; use empathy rovers to rake in hundreds of EC in planet pearls every turn while your opponents curse you for flooding their precious terraforming

- when you know you’ve been infiltrated but your opponent doesn’t have the habit of checking the F4 screen too often (e.g. you play via IP), rename your assault army to something innocuous to prepare a surprise attack (once during a hot seat game I dispatched a host of 4-1-2 “Tree Farms” delivered by transport cruiser “Research Hospitals”; the attack failed anyway but the surprise was total and we had a few laughs about it)

- train a mind worm and deliver it to your opponent’s terrain; choose the “release it into the wild” option and hit it with a planet buster for no diplomacy repercussions (this tactics is actually cheese and I would never do it in my games; still, it’s completely legal so it’s up to you to use it!)


As a bonus, I’m also interested in any multi-player hints and tips you may have. Two from me:


- do your best not to sell commlinks and only start the council for the first time when you really know what you’re doing and are going for the Gov’nor. I noticed that the longer you can postpone contacts between other players, the better (if only because they cannot trade behind your back or ally against you)

- never, under any circumstances make a pact of brotherhood with anyone during an MP game. And especially with the AI. The reason is that it’s extremely easy to probe them for your map and disclosing your map makes you very vulnerable, even/especially when you have been already infiltrated (I actually broke this rule in two of my games recently so I’m angry with myself for it; but many a time I was able to grab somebody’s map almost for free just because they couldn’t resist pacting with some meagre AI; and your pacted AI is capable of selling your map for as little as Doctrine:Loyalty)


Do you have any such practical tips of your own, guys?
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 25, 2013, 01:47:54 AM
In singleplayer ( I haven't play any substantial MP, could work in MP), I typically find that if you invest in making armoured rovers, even if they have no upgraded weapons, are far superior over just standard footmen. While researching them the resource value may be pricy, the actual mineral cost for a armoured rover and armoured footmen are nearly the same. So not only do you have a fast moving assault force, you also have a quick way to reinforce your empire and reinforce captured cities. Armoured rovers are an indispensable tool for any aggressive commander who wants to quickly fortify lines, hold them, and possibly carry on the attack.

Also note, the stats of both are relatively the same: Plus rovers have bonuses in the open, something infantry do not. Which is far more useful as there is usually more open spaces then rocky hills and such.

Edit: And you may have noticed in my gameplay, I love using my rovers and mobile forces: I am an attrition fighter that likes hit and run attacks. Having my mobile forces able to hold the line to boot is even better.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: uss1701jb on August 25, 2013, 10:27:11 AM
Colony gravships. Or whatever they are called. After chopper. Not plane. ARGGHH CURSE MY LAZINESS TO GET UP AND CHECK!!!
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: uss1701jb on August 25, 2013, 10:29:24 AM
Also, I'm all for banning the mind worm planet buster exploit in our upcoming game.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 25, 2013, 07:20:37 PM
In singleplayer ( I haven't play any substantial MP, could work in MP), I typically find that if you invest in making armoured rovers, even if they have no upgraded weapons, are far superior over just standard footmen.

I noticed such units in several MP games, but I was never convinced about that. Usually I try to keep the best bang for buck ratio, which in SMAC means masses of expendable units with either weapon or armour maxed, the other at 1. To provide defence, I think I used scout patrols upgraded to 1-3-1 or such as the situation required. But it's been some time. You sure you can't achieve the same effects with more 4-1-2s?

On a related note - do you use any artillery units? I don't mean naval bombardment or building batteries just to overwhelm that specific entrenched base - I mean preparing an army composition with slots for artillery in mind. Somehow I never used it too much, for several reasons (they are only cheap on infantry, they are quite vulnerable in the open, etc.), but maybe I miss something.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 25, 2013, 07:24:18 PM
Colony gravships. Or whatever they are called. After chopper. Not plane. ARGGHH CURSE MY LAZINESS TO GET UP AND CHECK!!!

I'm sure you can put colony pods on choppers as well. :)

No worry, I'm not going to use that mind worm exploit. Besides, it actually takes some skill to execute. But it's cheese still.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 25, 2013, 10:51:57 PM
In singleplayer ( I haven't play any substantial MP, could work in MP), I typically find that if you invest in making armoured rovers, even if they have no upgraded weapons, are far superior over just standard footmen.

I noticed such units in several MP games, but I was never convinced about that. Usually I try to keep the best bang for buck ratio, which in SMAC means masses of expendable units with either weapon or armour maxed, the other at 1. To provide defence, I think I used scout patrols upgraded to 1-3-1 or such as the situation required. But it's been some time. You sure you can't achieve the same effects with more 4-1-2s?

On a related note - do you use any artillery units? I don't mean naval bombardment or building batteries just to overwhelm that specific entrenched base - I mean preparing an army composition with slots for artillery in mind. Somehow I never used it too much, for several reasons (they are only cheap on infantry, they are quite vulnerable in the open, etc.), but maybe I miss something.

I use artillery extensively actually, I typically pack them on rovers. Rovers with armour, artillery can sit back, bombard a base and if attacked are fairly defendable, but can still withdraw if need be. And they can damage whole stacks of units so much they provide easy pickings for my other forces.

I also want to experiment with Artillery choppers.. I think they can be effective means of defencive artillery. I'll have to test them out, I think if they are still able to engage units directly as well as bombard, they'd be incredible.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: gwillybj on August 25, 2013, 11:51:19 PM
Terrorforming, aka Water Rights: Raising or lowering land to divert a river into your territory. Likely good only in SP. Takes practice. Makes more of a mess than anything sometimes.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 26, 2013, 12:06:03 AM
Terrorforming, aka Water Rights: Raising or lowering land to divert a river into your territory. Likely good only in SP. Takes practice. Makes more of a mess than anything sometimes.

Could you elaborate on that? Any reason to do that instead of drilling to aquifier? Even if drilling is sometimes impossible (due to how rivers work), is it worthwhile to change your coastline just to get a river change its course? Raising/lowering usually has more important strategic implications, either you want to get to your enemy or simply get more land to settle in.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 26, 2013, 12:27:58 AM
I use artillery extensively actually, I typically pack them on rovers. Rovers with armour, artillery can sit back, bombard a base and if attacked are fairly defendable, but can still withdraw if need be. And they can damage whole stacks of units so much they provide easy pickings for my other forces.

I also want to experiment with Artillery choppers.. I think they can be effective means of defencive artillery. I'll have to test them out, I think if they are still able to engage units directly as well as bombard, they'd be incredible.

You can't put artillery on choppers, I'm afraid. As for rover artillery, I'll need to give it a try myself. The fact that it's not on the standard way to D:AP is probably the reason I can't recall the last time I saw it in MP. With air units in place, many land-related tactics become irrelevant.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 26, 2013, 12:54:44 AM
Even with Air, I still use artillery if the enemy has large stacks of units, especially if some have AA. Air and rovers are the cleanup process.

And damn, was hoping to have Siege Chopper's, Airbourne artillery. That'd be cool.

Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: gwillybj on August 27, 2013, 02:56:35 AM
Terrorforming, aka Water Rights: Raising or lowering land to divert a river into your territory. Likely good only in SP. Takes practice. Makes more of a mess than anything sometimes.

Could you elaborate on that? Any reason to do that instead of drilling to aquifier? Even if drilling is sometimes impossible (due to how rivers work), is it worthwhile to change your coastline just to get a river change its course? Raising/lowering usually has more important strategic implications, either you want to get to your enemy or simply get more land to settle in.
The purpose is to deny them the energy from the river, especially if it starts in your territory and crosses the border and runs away from your bases. It's done in the interior, most often by raising a hill in the path of the river so it is diverted away from their territory. Surely a SP thing, since in MP there's not enough time before one of their units comes and wrecks your Former.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 27, 2013, 03:17:53 AM
Also?  It's fun to do that to the AI.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 27, 2013, 03:26:37 AM
I often use terraforming against aquatic factions and just put them in a tiny pond, starve them out, and then I'd eventually raise the base itself and take it out/over.

Also, another tip to preserve your integrity while starting wars: Just piss off the target so much they come after you. Like asking for technology or otherwise.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 27, 2013, 03:35:23 AM
I use the one-square pond thing sometimes to gift a completely undeveloped pop-one base to someone I'm blood truced with, in anticipation of renewed hostilities when I take out everything else they have - then I wipe everyone else out as they are dumb enough to declare vendetta on me, and play out the clock like it's sim city, building my beautiful full Planetary empire...
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 27, 2013, 04:06:25 PM
Does anyone remember how it really works when you try to raise/lower somebody else's terrain? Because I'm sure that you not only risk Vendetta (which is rarely a real danger), but also sometimes the cost may be in thousands as opposed to 4/8/16. At least that's what I can vaguely recall...
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 27, 2013, 04:27:07 PM
I can't speak to the cost issue, but that about triggering vendetta is true.  Interestingly, (perhaps buggily, because it makes no sense,) you cannot raise land next to the border, even if it would not raise any on the other side, but you can lower, provided it causes no lowering over the border.

I posted screenies illustrating this in a Bug/Patch thread about an exploit workaround.  I bet I can find the thread and add the link here before the edit notice time limit is up.

A bug report: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3298.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3298.0)  brb

The exploit thread with many screenies (that may not illustrate this precise point...) http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3256.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3256.0)
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: ete on August 27, 2013, 05:33:24 PM
Also, another tip to preserve your integrity while starting wars: Just piss off the target so much they come after you. Like asking for technology or otherwise.
Yea, I used to do that all the time. Usually I demand they give me a base or I'll crush them like a bug, and if that does not work demand they withdraw (right click their name on the comm, you can demand withdrawal even if they won't talk) after switching to a social setting they hate (switching back after for a refund).

Still, not so useful in MP.

And that land raising trick is.. quite brilliant.

Also, the cost of land raising is tied to distance from your nearest base (closer=better) and current height of the land (lower=better), though there may be other factors. It seems to increase extremely fast as you get further from your bases, resulting in some insane figures for land raising.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 27, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
But by the time I have the formers and infrastructure already established to do cute elevation tricks, I'm so rich I don't care about the cost.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 27, 2013, 06:24:22 PM
Yep, I think ete is right and the cost is just related to the distance (doubles every tile) and height, regardless of its impact on other factions. Sea terraforming always seems to cost more, whether raising or lowering.

As for the trick described by BU - it looks like and probably is an exploit, right? Meaning a self-respecting MP player is not supposed to do that, is he?

Making AI pissed - with most factions it's usually enough to demand withdrawal, even when they have absolutely no units in your area (I think it works even with sunspot activity in place). Don't even need to switch SE, although my regular Demo/FM/Wealth is hated by most factions, anyway. And if this doesn't work - probing gets the job done like 99% of the time. Sometimes the AI would let me go with a warning, saying something like "I don't condone industrial sabotage". I'd love to know the trigger to this event, whether it is strength disparity or something else. Still, usually you end up with a vendetta.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 27, 2013, 07:12:53 PM
I consider myself the expert in SP cheating, and I do consider the raising trick an exploit.  Double plus ungood against people, IMAO.  (On the other hand, allow it, and let human players declare vendetta where the AI won't.  Carries its own punishment.)  Bring it up in the Academy to get MP expert opinion?
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 27, 2013, 09:20:51 PM
I'm in two minds. I dislike tricks and exploits which circumvent a rule specifically and explicitly put there by the designers. On the other hand, almost always I use the FM trick when you build a base and keep it at pop1. I've used it for soo long, it's just a part of the game right now. But hitting rogue worms with busters is a huge no-no for me.

Still, I think I'm against banning such things. I'm just not going to use this raising exploit.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 27, 2013, 09:31:38 PM
I think definitely consult your colleagues - t doesn't look in here much.

I consider it an exploit, not quite a cheat, because the designers almost certainly would have wanted the AI to get mad at the raising stunt if they'd thought of it, but they did not, and it's not that major a trick, being mostly fun for those who like terraforming and/or messing with allies while maintaining reputation.  It's rarely even as potent as the release into the wild trick where you do it in hope the worm attacks the adjacent base, not to nuke it.

Sometimes an ally plants a base right on the border and screws up one of yours real bad?  I always worm the heck out of those if it's the stage of the game I can waste time making a million worms.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: gwillybj on August 28, 2013, 09:19:03 AM
Wow! ??? I stuck that Water Rights thing in here mostly for titters and yuks, and it turns into a point for discussion! :whistle: I don't use it all the time; it's a boredom-killer when there's little else to do. Have fun with it! :D
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on August 28, 2013, 04:11:05 PM
I use artillery extensively actually, I typically pack them on rovers. Rovers with armour, artillery can sit back, bombard a base and if attacked are fairly defendable, but can still withdraw if need be. And they can damage whole stacks of units so much they provide easy pickings for my other forces.

Isn't armored rover artillery ridiculously expensive, though?

I consider myself the expert in SP cheating

Speaking of which: Once you have the production, you can use pre-made supply crawlers to build a SP the turn after you get the prerequisite tech, even if you have no other projects that you can build at the moment to switch from.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 28, 2013, 05:59:43 PM
Is cashing in crawlers even an exploit, though?
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on August 28, 2013, 06:03:36 PM
Is cashing in crawlers even an exploit, though?

Depends.

If you use them to build projects somewhat faster, I don't think it's an exploit; that's part of what they're for.
If you use them to focus your entire empire on a single project, I'd argue that that's heavily imbalanced (as it heavily weakens one of the major downsides of building a project, i.e. that it takes a high-production base out for a substantial period of time), but still not really an exploit.
If you use them to crawl minerals until you have enough to finish the project, I'd say that's more questionable.
If you build them for a project before you are able to start work on that project, I would consider that an exploit.
And if you upgrade them to reduce the hurry cost of projects, I'd consider that to definitely be an exploit.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on August 28, 2013, 06:09:22 PM
And if you upgrade them to reduce the hurry cost of projects, I'd consider that to definitely be an exploit.

You know, if it wasn't possible anymore to put armor on civilian 'weapon' types...
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 28, 2013, 06:18:19 PM
Is the upgrade stunt a cheaper way than cashing in what crawlers are on hand as-is and then rushing?
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on August 28, 2013, 06:20:10 PM
AFAIK, it is. Put as strong a shield and costly abilities you can on a crawler, and you should be golden.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: ete on August 28, 2013, 06:35:42 PM
Is the upgrade stunt a cheaper way than cashing in what crawlers are on hand as-is and then rushing?
Vastly cheaper, especially early on where rush buying is extremely expensive.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 28, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
Obviously King Cheater has NOT done a lot of work in crawler cashing - but I AM the discoverer and AFAIK lone practitioner of the Time Warp, despite having announced it over 4 years ago (I couldn't convince Petek it was a thing)...
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on August 28, 2013, 06:50:33 PM
You need to pay 4 EC for each mineral rushed for an SP (as opposed to the normal 2 EC/min price). The price of upgrading probably varies, but still the saving is massive.

Crawler upgrading looks like a workaround for me and hence I never use it and always ban it in my games. But all the other features are there by design. You can always start to build a new thing right after you discover the relevant tech, and you can always disband your units to get this thing on the next turn - it's just that crawlers contribute their full price to the SP and this makes especially useful.

So basically everything is fine, if crawlers are OP it's for their mining ability, low cost and no maintenance. I believe the designers just did not betatest it thoroughly - they should have given the game to die-hard Civ players to figure it out immediately. :D

Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on August 28, 2013, 06:59:44 PM
And if you upgrade them to reduce the hurry cost of projects, I'd consider that to definitely be an exploit.

You know, if it wasn't possible anymore to put armor on civilian 'weapon' types...

Sometimes you want armored formers, though, and it still wouldn't help with upgrading the crawlers to clean.  I'd rather change the upgrade cost formula to make that tactic, as well as the similarly exploit-like IMO tactic of building cheap units and upgrading instead of hurrying units, ineffective, or if necessary simply ban it.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 09, 2013, 11:39:57 PM
Sometimes you want armored formers, though, and it still wouldn't help with upgrading the crawlers to clean.  I'd rather change the upgrade cost formula to make that tactic, as well as the similarly exploit-like IMO tactic of building cheap units and upgrading instead of hurrying units, ineffective, or if necessary simply ban it.

Indeed, I ban upgrading crawlers in my games, but I miss the option to put armour on crawlers in field for tactical reasons, not for SP.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on September 09, 2013, 11:47:54 PM
Sometimes you want armored formers, though, and it still wouldn't help with upgrading the crawlers to clean.  I'd rather change the upgrade cost formula to make that tactic, as well as the similarly exploit-like IMO tactic of building cheap units and upgrading instead of hurrying units, ineffective, or if necessary simply ban it.

Indeed, I ban upgrading crawlers in my games, but I miss the option to put armour on crawlers in field for tactical reasons, not for SP.

That's not so hard...De-ban upgrading crawlers, but make a rule that once a crawler is upgraded it cannot be cashed in for SP.

Alternatively, you could use my patch to tweak the upgrade cost formula in a way that makes crawler upgrading no longer cost-efficient, though that will of course have numerous other ramifications as well (which you might or might not want) because it affects all upgrade costs.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 09, 2013, 11:49:30 PM
Another idea (never used that actually): if some AI can be a valuable ally, construct a throw-away sea base and give it to such AI (you can do it for free). The base is useless, but the boost to relations is really huge and you can easily make your new friend do what you want - vote in the Council, attack other players - and later probe it if need be.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 09, 2013, 11:53:45 PM
That's not so hard...De-ban upgrading crawlers, but make a rule that once a crawler is upgraded it cannot be cashed in for SP.

I don't know why actually, but it never caught on as a widely accepted rule. Maybe because it would be hard to monitor for anti-cheat purposes. And this is not an issue that is of any concern to me. Should suggest it next time.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on September 10, 2013, 12:39:42 AM
Maybe because it would be hard to monitor for anti-cheat purposes.

Even a simple ban on upgrading is probably unfeasible to monitor, though.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on September 10, 2013, 07:16:26 AM
Maybe because it would be hard to monitor for anti-cheat purposes.

Even a simple ban on upgrading is probably unfeasible to monitor, though.

I thought once infiltration is achieved, the unit list (F4?) shows you all unit types of a faction in existence.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 10, 2013, 11:24:41 AM
It's F7 and yes, any unit you've created at any moment, even through sheer upgrades, stays there.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on September 10, 2013, 12:44:56 PM
Maybe because it would be hard to monitor for anti-cheat purposes.

Even a simple ban on upgrading is probably unfeasible to monitor, though.

I thought once infiltration is achieved, the unit list (F4?) shows you all unit types of a faction in existence.

Yes, it shows you the names of each type.

A smart cheater will name his upgraded crawlers in a way that makes it not at all obvious that they are crawlers; I'm also not sure if there's a way to upgrade right before cashing them in so they are never "in existence" on the other player's turn.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 10, 2013, 12:52:40 PM
Oh, that wouldn't be a cheater that smart. ;) People would notice in a moment and you have much more subtle ways of cheating if you're really up to it.

I tested it and the moment you upgrade, the relevant design goes into your F7 and stays there until the end of the game.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Droom on September 10, 2013, 04:54:48 PM
Not really trick, though beginners might find this tip useful. Early in the game, when I first meet a faction, I make a special note of their council votes. This gives me a good idea of their population and number of bases.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on September 10, 2013, 05:04:13 PM
I tested it and the moment you upgrade, the relevant design goes into your F7 and stays there until the end of the game.

But I suppose its not conclusive. I mean, the unit could be created the hard way, in the build list of a base.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 10, 2013, 07:26:49 PM
You're right and I actually create advanced version of crawlers whenever I pop pods. So I don't know, maybe nobody cared about upgrading field crawlers and it wasn't an issue for anybody. After all, it's not a particularly important thing, I could use it like once or twice in my life, it's just I don't like any options disappearing from the table for no good reason.


Which reminds me of another tip: before popping a pod, hit 'V'. Now hit 'B'. This opens the nearest base to your unit. Now remember your production and change it to either the most expensive facility or the most costly version of a crawler (I prefer the latter). Pop the pod and if it's instabuild, you have a very good crawler, on rare occasions even enough to actually cover the cost of an entire SP. If it's not instabuild, simply revert the production.

Use it more often at sea, as instabuilds are more likely there. And always do it in MP games.  ;)
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on September 10, 2013, 11:38:14 PM
And always do it in MP games.  ;)

Unless it's banned, either explicitly or via a "no changing things intending to possibly or definitely revert them" rule.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 11, 2013, 10:22:44 AM
Amendment to the thing with nuking a wild mind worm:

I did some tests and it seems that you get diplomatic consequences after all, from all factions but the one actually affected by the nuclear blast. It's hilarious really. Other factions pronounce Vendetta, your Integrity drops to Wicked, and the actual victim is like nothing happened. It was only a few attempts, I'm not going to use this trick anyway so I'm not testing it further.

Of course, it is still useful and fun to use against an unaware human opponent. "Dude, you nuked me!", "What, you got nuked? Man, I'm so sorry", "You'd better be, that's your nuke!", "What do you mean, we still have our treaty, check it out. I'm sure it was the Hive. Yeah, it must have been the Hive". :)
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 11, 2013, 10:27:05 AM
Unless it's banned, either explicitly or via a "no changing things intending to possibly or definitely revert them" rule.

Well, I see absolutely no reason to ban it. It's just as good use of the game mechanics as mind controlling bases which riot or doing atrocities while under sunflares. Upgrading field crawlers to slow the advances of your opponent actually seems more fishy to me.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 11, 2013, 10:40:05 AM
2 more tips, which I recently posted somewhere else but it's good to have them in one place:

- when you want to quickly forest some area, terraform forest in checkers, not in bulk patches; the chance of spread depends on adjacent forest tiles and the actual size of your wood has nothing to do with it (yeah yeah, that's what she said!)

- use the 'name/erase landmark' feature (Shift+N/Ctrl+Shift+N) to your advantage; you can leave messages to yourself, especially in MP games which take days between the turns. You can write down when you stapled your base (the game doesn't say) or put down reminders like "upgrade formers" (once you get BioEng, it takes many turns to fully upgrade your formers to clean as some of them are doing boreholes now and you're going to forget about upgrades). Use some sort of code of abbreviations only you understand (in a recent game, "IA/47" meant that I wanted to set up 10 supply crawlers to dash for PTS in one turn in 2147).
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on September 11, 2013, 02:02:48 PM
Amendment to the thing with nuking a wild mind worm:

I did some tests and it seems that you get diplomatic consequences after all, from all factions but the one actually affected by the nuclear blast.

Sounds like a bug.  Not a particularly big one, as it's easy to ban and not likely to happen naturally, but a bug nonetheless.

Well, I see absolutely no reason to ban it. It's just as good use of the game mechanics as mind controlling bases which riot or doing atrocities while under sunflares.

I see it more like changing your social engineering to get an advantage, and then changing it back in the same turn to refund the cost (which I believe is banned)...it's slightly different in that the advantage is probabilistic rather than definite and you only revert when you don't get the advantage, but it's still exploiting the ability to do something and then revert it at a total cost of zero.

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Upgrading field crawlers to slow the advances of your opponent actually seems more fishy to me.

Not to me (as upgrading units is meant to be used for new tech or last-minute changes), though I'd ban crawling with it in the same turn and maybe make it more expensive.

2 more tips, which I recently posted somewhere else but it's good to have them in one place:

- when you want to quickly forest some area, terraform forest in checkers, not in bulk patches; the chance of spread depends on adjacent forest tiles and the actual size of your wood has nothing to do with it

Does make sense, in that forest can only spread one square.

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- use the 'name/erase landmark' feature (Shift+N/Ctrl+Shift+N) to your advantage; you can leave messages to yourself, especially in MP games which take days between the turns. You can write down when you stapled your base (the game doesn't say) or put down reminders like "upgrade formers" (once you get BioEng, it takes many turns to fully upgrade your formers to clean as some of them are doing boreholes now and you're going to forget about upgrades). Use some sort of code of abbreviations only you understand (in a recent game, "IA/47" meant that I wanted to set up 10 supply crawlers to dash for PTS in one turn in 2147).

Cute trick, and fully acceptable (as long as you don't use it to trick other players or limit their ability to use the same trick by placing up to the maximum number of landmarks).
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on September 11, 2013, 06:03:27 PM
...(as long as you don't use it to trick other players or limit their ability to use the same trick by placing up to the maximum number of landmarks).

Ah, there's the tricky parts...
Personally, I'd just dot it down on some paper and put it on my desktop as a reminder. ;)
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 11, 2013, 06:25:29 PM
Ah, there's the tricky parts...
Personally, I'd just dot it down on some paper and put it on my desktop as a reminder. ;)

I assure you this is absolutely not an issue in any single- or multiplayer game you're in. You just dump a couple of post-its, there is no need to write a book on the map.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 11, 2013, 06:40:11 PM
I see it more like changing your social engineering to get an advantage, and then changing it back in the same turn to refund the cost (which I believe is banned)...it's slightly different in that the advantage is probabilistic rather than definite and you only revert when you don't get the advantage, but it's still exploiting the ability to do something and then revert it at a total cost of zero.

This is far from the same. You can lawfully change production as many times as you want for no penalty. You'd have either to ban it altogether or leave it intact, because in MP games you simply cannot ban intentions. Sometimes players want to change the production and then they pop a pod and then have an honest change of heart about that production. You can't and shouldn't control things like that. And even if you did, the way around it is quite obvious - I'd poise several units to pop several pods at once right at the moment when a build has been done.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on September 12, 2013, 02:45:15 AM
This is far from the same. You can lawfully change production as many times as you want for no penalty.

The retool penalty doesn't count?

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You'd have either to ban it altogether or leave it intact, because in MP games you simply cannot ban intentions.

I don't see why not...

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And even if you did, the way around it is quite obvious - I'd poise several units to pop several pods at once right at the moment when a build has been done.

Although that requires having those units not going to pop other pods, and someone else might be on the other side of that pod and grab it first...
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on September 28, 2013, 04:39:09 PM
- never, under any circumstances make a pact of brotherhood with anyone during an MP game. And especially with the AI.

Erratum: Pacting with another human player in an MP game does not result in the automatic map trade, unlike with the AI. The option 'World Map' must be separately negotiated for. I didn't know that before since I avoided any pacts in MP.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on October 09, 2013, 06:22:14 PM
Not really a trick, but it's not worth a separate thread and I wanted to share something I found out:

- When you pop that dish thing at the Unity crash site (upper left corner), I think it's some thingamajig from the bridge, Cha Dawn's HQ doesn't show up unlike other human HQs, even when it's already established. Funny bonus. :)
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on October 09, 2013, 07:32:05 PM
- When you pop that dish thing at the Unity crash site (upper left corner), I think it's some thingamajig from the bridge, Cha Dawn's HQ doesn't show up unlike other human HQs, even when it's already established. Funny bonus. :)

Neither do the alien basesites.
Its in canon, really. The Cult didn't crashland, but were founded later.
OTOH, the same should hold true for breakaway factions like the Free Drones or Data Angels. Those supposedly went on their own as well after Planetfall by their 'founder' factions.
Perhaps requesting this as an option for Yitzi's patch?
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Kirov on October 09, 2013, 07:56:15 PM
Oh yes, you're right, I believed it applies to progs only. As to other SMAX factions, they do get the message about their own Planetfall, so I think their story about being splinter factions doesn't really hold up (i.e. how can DA be splinter of Morgan if there is no Morgan on your map in the first place?)
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on October 09, 2013, 08:22:45 PM
As to other SMAX factions, they do get the message about their own Planetfall, so I think their story about being splinter factions doesn't really hold up (i.e. how can DA be splinter of Morgan if there is no Morgan on your map in the first place?)

A take-over instead of a splintering could explain that. But if that's the case, neither the Morgans, Hive and perhaps University should be on a map with respectively the Angels, Drones, or Cyborgs ingame.
The game is rigged for certain stuff when either the Usurper or Fungboy filename is used as a substitute for a new faction. Not sure if I saw all the 'unique' things to those filenames yet.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on October 10, 2013, 02:59:06 AM
Perhaps requesting this as an option for Yitzi's patch?

Even once I'm ready, you'd have to decide how you want the game to decide which factions to put into which groups...
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on October 10, 2013, 06:33:08 AM
Yeah. At first glance, the only broad way the game as it is distinguishes between 'groups' are the alien and aquatic flags.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Yitzi on October 10, 2013, 05:58:22 PM
Yeah. At first glance, the only broad way the game as it is distinguishes between 'groups' are the alien and aquatic flags.

It also has specific factions mentioned, i.e. whoever's under the file name CARETAKE is disqualified from building the VoP or Ascent*, and I'm sure that the filename FUNGBOY is what determines all the special stuff for the Cult.

*Well, disqualified from the Ascent in any versions of my patch which fixed the bug that made it not happen.
Title: Re: Any tricks up your sleeve?
Post by: Geo on October 10, 2013, 10:04:53 PM
You're right, of course. I simply didn't mention the two alien factions and the fungboy tag because they're file-specific. The Usurper file tag seems linked to the second alien planetfall intro as far as I can tell. Whatever faction file name with the alien flag (besides Usurpers and Fungboy that is) seems to default to the first alien planetfall intro.
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