#DATALINKS1
^LEADER: {Professor Ulrik Svensgaard}
^BACKGROUND: {Unity oceanographer}
^AGENDA: {Libertarianism}
^TECH: {Doctrine: Mobility, Doctrine: Flexibility}
#DATALINKS2
^+1 ECONOMY {Unrestrained entrepreneurship}
^+1 EFFICIENCY {Survivalist attitude is necessary to live outside land}
^-1 GROWTH {Culture does not place high emphasis on family}
^-1 POLICE {Constitution limits central government power}
^House rule: May not build land colony pods until year 2121/2131/2141/2151 depending on map size: tiny/small/standard/large+ {Citizens unwilling to settle on land}
^{May not use Police State Politics.}
^Free {Naval Yard} with discovery of {Doctrine: Initiative}: skilled shipwrights
^Enhancements may be built in ocean and trench squares with the discovery of Advanced Ecological Engineering: {Trained for life at sea}
^Sea colony pod & sea former prototypes {free}: advanced oceanic technology
^Bonus mineral from ocean shelf squares: {Culture and technology adapted for the ocean}
^{Marine Detachment ability} free for all naval combat units upon discovery of {Adaptive Doctrine}
Thinker mod still has +1 minerals in the water for an AQUATIC faction, right? Like in the stock game. If so, this is widely acknowledged to be a huge, overpowered advantage.why you think this is overpowered ? that would be OP only on really dry land maps, where most players get 0-0, or 0-1 squares, no 1-1 and 2-1; most maps land will have a lot of 1-1 and some 2-1; so I'd say +1m for aqua is just making it equal to land factions on most maps; my preference for maps is weak/rare/dense so here aqua has worse area, on average/average/average I'd say it's only equal in this regard of 1-1 squares (and still worse than land given all other things I mentioned);
Sure you don't have any single big source of minerals, but you don't need them.you mean u dont need them to enjoy the landscape and fresh sea air ? I agree; otherwise I question your skill if u say u don't need minerals to win game
Kelp will grow you big bases, and all you have to do is plant it.many big bases are only good on citizen level where u dont have drone problems; on transcend this is not true; so for transcend play it's much better to have 2-1 rolling and rainy on land and have forest spread instead of kelp spread
Because the ocean already gives you abundant food and abundant energy, enabling you to grow big bases, so those +1 minerals really add up. Also bear in mind that in the later game, you have the Subsea Trunkline as well as an increase in the amount of minerals that sea minerals give you.Thinker mod still has +1 minerals in the water for an AQUATIC faction, right? Like in the stock game. If so, this is widely acknowledged to be a huge, overpowered advantage.why you think this is overpowered ?
Note the bold.QuoteSure you don't have any single big source of minerals, but you don't need them.you mean u dont need them to enjoy the landscape and fresh sea air ? I agree; otherwise I question your skill if u say u don't need minerals to win game
Thinker mod still has +1 minerals in the water for an AQUATIC faction, right? Like in the stock game. If so, this is widely acknowledged to be a huge, overpowered advantage.why you think this is overpowered ? that would be OP only on really dry land maps, where most players get 0-0, or 0-1 squares, no 1-1 and 2-1; most maps land will have a lot of 1-1 and some 2-1; so I'd say +1m for aqua is just making it equal to land factions on most maps; my preference for maps is weak/rare/dense so here aqua has worse area, on average/average/average I'd say it's only equal in this regard of 1-1 squares (and still worse than land given all other things I mentioned);
but this does make interesting disincentive for land factions no to go sea as they don't get this benefit
I wouldn't say it is interesting. The game just falls into two largely not intersecting worlds effectively limiting player expansion and flexibility to escape from tiny starting island.Yeah and for this reason my world generation doesn't allow tiny starting islands, and ships are available immediately on Turn 1. It proved necessary. I eventually found it to be the only way to put this problem out to pasture, once and for all.
As AI they are 80% of time first in development and 20% of time they are second if they fall into some pretty disadvantageous ocean configuration.ok, let's fact-check this statement with simple scientific experiment ;zak;: I will run up to 5 games to see if they are really either top1 in development (I assume you mean powergraph) in 80% cases. In test I will not play, just switch to observe AI and press enter to skip to some agreed year. If by your opinion they are so strong that means probably they get high growth-momentum from early on and they will happen to be top1-2 since early years ? Either tell me by which year does your statement hold true: I would assume it is at most year 60, since you mentioned year 50? Tell me what kind of setting this statement requires to be true - I'd assume any with at least big sea since you didn't limit this statement anyhow. Either tell me what setting do you usually play when you observed this (especially: was it transcend?) For test I propose transcend, standard map weak/rare/dense 40**% sea + game rules in attachement - as this is kind of settings I like. As opponents: morgan, univ, peace, gaia, hive, drones. Does your statement hold true only in vanilla SMAX or also in Thinker mod? IIRC your mod is based on Thinker mod ? ? So could I use Thinker 3.0 with default** thinker.ini params ? I'd prefer Thinker mod but if you think your statement is only true in vanilla SMAX then I'll run it there.
If you want more benchmarks on AQUATIC factions with +1 minerals bonus intact, you might consider my SMACX AI Growth mod. It is designed to run on the stock binary and makes no change to the game binary at all. Just *.txt file modding.im not into total-conversions mod; besides your paradigm of only txt modding will produce inferior results in terms of AI skill than source code modding like Thinker mod does.
my mod is designed for Huge mapsI prefer small maps as there you already control 30-50 bases which is a ton; standard should be called "huge" as there you may end up with 200 bases; this is just not fun to operate on such scale - it's too much grinding; on huge it would be likely 300 bases; and if someone plays with less bases than terrain allows then its just weak strategy
about Pirates faction:As AI they are 80% of time first in development and 20% of time they are second if they fall into some pretty disadvantageous ocean configuration.ok, let's fact-check this statement with simple scientific experiment ;zak;: I will run up to 5 games to see if they are really either top1 in development (I assume you mean powergraph) in 80% cases. In test I will not play, just switch to observe AI and press enter to skip to some agreed year. If by your opinion they are so strong that means probably they get high growth-momentum from early on and they will happen to be top1-2 since early years ? Either tell me by which year does your statement hold true: I would assume it is at most year 60, since you mentioned year 50? Tell me what kind of setting this statement requires to be true - I'd assume any with at least big sea since you didn't limit this statement anyhow. Either tell me what setting do you usually play when you observed this (especially: was it transcend?) For test I propose transcend, standard map weak/rare/dense 40**% sea + game rules in attachement - as this is kind of settings I like. As opponents: morgan, univ, peace, gaia, hive, drones. Does your statement hold true only in vanilla SMAX or also in Thinker mod? IIRC your mod is based on Thinker mod ? ? So could I use Thinker 3.0 with default** thinker.ini params ? I'd prefer Thinker mod but if you think your statement is only true in vanilla SMAX then I'll run it there.
Your statement will hold true if in 4 games they are top1 and 1 game >=top2.
BTW: did you mean precisely "first in development" OR "first in development after me" ? If the former then question: what was your ranking in 80% of cases ?
** In Thinker you can actually set specific sea percentage in .ini so that would be preferable as this way experiment is better standardized; if u only allow vanilla then I propose 30-50% sea but on large map and make sure they start in big sea; even if it would turn out only 30% sea then still they should be at advantage since other factions get 70%/6=11,6% of land on average; so if this "big sea start" is around 15% of all water on map it should be fair compared to land factions
im not into total-conversions mod;
besides your paradigm of only txt modding will produce inferior results in terms of AI skill than source code modding like Thinker mod does.
Quotemy mod is designed for Huge mapsI prefer small maps as there you already control 30-50 bases which is a ton; standard should be called "huge" as there you may end up with 200 bases; this is just not fun to operate on such scale - it's too much grinding; on huge it would be likely 300 bases; and if someone plays with less bases than terrain allows then its just weak strategy
Something that, both fortunately and regrettably, WTP has reinstated something like the original gameplay. I'm actually scared, terrified even, of global warming in WTP. You haven't mastered SMAC until you've survived a mindworm apocalypse!
I'm impressed that Thinker and WTP are both still at it
2 of whom are disagreeing with you about Pirates. Could it be possible, that we know something from our testing that you don't.
Did you actually played a lot of vanilla games with Pirates or by Pirates? As AI they are 80% of time first in development and 20% of time they are second if they fall into some pretty disadvantageous ocean configuration.this is completely wrong as now evidenced by scientific experimentations ! very easy to reproduce my results
Hmm. Interesting. Maybe map size matters. Let me do the same testing.
I'm impressed that Thinker and WTP are both still at it
I can say, honestly, I am not at it 100% anymore. Mostly mopping some lingering issues and responding to user comments. I'd say most of the features I ever really wanted are implemented already and what's left is combat AI as you correctly pointed out. I tried to tackle it few times and realized that efforts are about 100 time more than I have already invested so I am just sitting there hoping I'll get 100 more free time at some point.
😁
test consist of just opening game switching to "view only mod" (various factions) and pressing enter till 100years pass
100 years? That's not a test of anything.I feel offended about this. no test or evidence of anything is precisely what your posts are about
But "the Pirates are overpowered as of 100 years" doesn't mean anything.
my mod
my mod
my modx10 or so
I haven't tried stock game in a long time and frankly don't care about it.I feel the same about your mod
100 years? That's not a test of anything.I feel offended about this. no test or evidence of anything is precisely what your posts are about
But "the Pirates are overpowered as of 100 years" doesn't mean anything.
please stop derailing this topic with these ads/spamming of "your mod"; i dont care about your mod; this is topic about MY MOD; and my mod is Thinker mod + new faction
Strangely Pirates don't do well in vanilla. Don't know why and don't know where I got this impression they are always ahead. Maybe in Thinker/WTP version before I removed +1 mineral. Maybe it gets them more optimized? Well, whatever.
Pirates really suffer from the negative EFFIC.My pirates don't have EFFIC (JUSTICE) or GROWTH penalties. They also focus on Explore Build, not Explore Conquer. A pure Build focus definitely centralizes an empire's development more. An Explore focus tends to scatter it to the winds, especially on water. I haven't thought much about their Explore Build hybrid strategy lately. I'd make them pure Build except that that's Morgan's schtick. In my mod, all 14 factions have a unique combo of research priorities. Which do, for some reason, also affect AI behavior. I've got "coverage" of all the possible AI strategies, except for "study nothing" and "study everything".
As for Pirates balance in Thinker I'm not sure it makes sense to boost up an aquatic's faction bonuses. If they just settle onto land then they win easily.Fortunately not a problem in the stock binary. Pirates will mostly stay in the water. It's not like Thinker's "these are pirates??" landlubbering stuff.
I feel like Pirates are a faction that would do better with Pacifist mindset.
Is the Thinker AI more war-like or about the same?I noticed in late game (~120+years on standard map) Thinker AIs tend to go total war with each other, but not sure, might depend on many factors; early game if u play "Aggressive AI' settings - then definitely, or when I recently played "hive the noble peaceful man" after 50-70 years or so everyone gradually break pacts with me and then i get sudden attack from morgan; another game as morgan in ~2271 year: I get sudden "pact break and attack" from lal, despite morgan I run dem; note this game i was observcing AI all game and IIRC morgan and lal were allies most/all games but then I took over and play morgan in 2268.
I adjusted today "-1, 0, 0, 1, 1," and after 2 games of AI tests I see they are much stronger
I feel like Pirates are a faction that would do better with Pacifist mindset.
yea, I designed them this way, kind like sea-morgan; but I overlooked some stats since I was mostly focusing on human play; I adjusted today "-1, 0, 0, 1, 1," and after 2 games of AI tests I see they are much strongerQuoteIs the Thinker AI more war-like or about the same?I noticed in late game (~120+years on standard map) Thinker AIs tend to go total war with each other, but not sure, might depend on many factors; early game if u play "Aggressive AI' settings - then definitely, or when I recently played "hive the noble peaceful man" after 50-70 years or so everyone gradually break pacts with me and then i get sudden attack from morgan; another game as morgan in ~2271 year: I get sudden "pact break and attack" from lal, despite morgan I run dem; note this game i was observcing AI all game and IIRC morgan and lal were allies most/all games but then I took over and play morgan in 2168.