Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => After Action Reports => Topic started by: bvanevery on March 05, 2018, 11:01:26 AM

Title: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 05, 2018, 11:01:26 AM
With respect to whether I consider them to be HOME page worthy.  Or negative enough to make this site look bad.  Or some other reason they shouldn't be posted on the HOME page.  I did remove the nasty boilerplates I had at the end of all of these when I was  :mad:.  They're civil and perfunctory now.

Final Tally:

boring small island start - too short to be HOME page worthy

slow transporting - I won the game.  Only the very end of the game has any negativity at all.  I'm entitled to my opinions about how I felt about the AI "dictating the terms" of the game's end.  There is nothing wrong with this AAR for posting on the HOME page.

Aki vs. Yitzi and PRACX - I blew off this game.  I did not enjoy it at all.  It made me itch.  There was plenty of bleeped out @#$@#$ profanity in it.  I consider that "clean" but it is negative.

Zhakarov is killed by aliens - I lost this game.  That almost never happens, but it did happen, and in an unusual way.  The Usurper AI behavior was weird in this one.  That alone makes it an object of curiosity.  It's HOME page worthy material.  Of course I was pissed about losing the game, but otherwise this AAR isn't negative.

Miriam makes me shiver - Early in the game, I was pretty bored of doing AAR writeups.  I put some really off the wall stuff in there, clowining 80s songs and some @#$# profanity about making Lal dance.  He wasn't even in the game.  Yeah, that was weird, and negative, but I'm not changing it, 'cuz it's also real.  I had a point midgame where it was seriously starting to get boring, and I questioned continuing it.  However I found a way to make it interseting again, and that's the opposite of negative, that's finding something positive to go on with.  Eventually I won this game over and over again.  Lots of Transcendant Thought techs, could have transcended at any time since forever.  I toyed with my enemies and "sandboxed" them for quite awhile, then eventually hit the wall.  It became bor-ring!  That's not negative, that's reality.  You can only do so many sandbox things before you've spent a thousand mouseclicks on each of them and don't want to do it anymore.  If you're really squeamish about the @##! Lal stuff, fine, whatever.  Otherwise though, there isn't enough negative here to keep it off the HOME Page.  It's a darned long writeup of a game that I won.

Cha Dawn braves the unknown - this is the exemplar of what really happens in half of my writeups.  I play a game to the hilt.  The posts get very long.  No time for anything negative, I'm too busy accounting tons of tactical detail.  Lotta meat on this one.  Then I get to the last post and you know it's like, this game and this AAR have been wearing me out the whole time.  Author's journey or something.  Yeah, I'm going to be a bit negative about wasting a day of my life on such a thing.  I don't think that should be a dealbreaker because the tactical stuff is so long and so solid.  This is one I'd throw out there and see if anyone actually cares that I got tired of the thing.  Yeah our opinions differ on whether that matters to anyone.  I don't require a dose of happy sauce in everything I read.

Svensgaard is a douchebag - The title is as negative as it gets.  I hate Svensgaard.  I've always hated him, more than any other character in the game.  He's the pretty boy that these SMAC add-on idiots decided they'd shove in there.  They gave him a voice actor that doesn't sound like a pirate, he sounds like an English major wearing a sweater.  What a load of crap.  Hope Yang kicks his ass and throws him into the tanks.  Well maybe an AAR shouldn't be a forum for what I think boldly sucks about SMAC.  I won't even bother to contemplate the rest of what I wrote, it probably has the usual merits.

Santiago the Builder - Lots of aspects of this game were a drag.  I couldn't build the SPs I wanted because of Santiago's Industry penalties.  I felt forced to fight which was not the kind of game I wanted to be playing.  I doubled down on Lal @#$@# profanity, making it more explicit than usual.  That's really the bigger problem in it, but I'm not going to take it out.  The analysis of how Santiago turns this game into a lot of work, is valid.  Other factions can accomplish a lot more with a lot less work, on a Huge map.  Interesting but I can see how this one is too negative to put on a HOME page.

Does Miriam suck? - The title itself is framed negatively, but since Miriam didn't end up sucking, the AI did, I can't consider the title to be a dealbreaker.  It's what I titled it when starting the game, and one doesn't know how things are going to go.  This game would have been my epic AAR, threatening to go to a length equal to all the other screenshot AARs combined.  But it was derailed by this process of coming to terms with being an AAR writer here.  I'm not interested in removing the conflict that ensued, there should be some record of it that isn't sanitized for posterity.  This AAR is a casualty of war and couldn't be on the HOME page.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2018, 09:33:40 PM
I just want to point out that in the game that you could have transcended any time - why not rush through the three turns or whatever it takes, doing nothing that doesn't speed the build, for the sake of sweetening your audience's experience?  It's minutes of effort, surely -absent a dangerous vendetta situation- to add serious non-trivial value to the many, many hours you've invested in playing, writing up, and screenshots.  BOOM! there goes one of my concerns.  AARs are stories, y'know -we considered just having them in the fiction forum before Green1 and others ask for a dedicated sub- and it's an intuitive story-telling thing to try to reach a satisfactory ending.  Why not for the quick win when you're bored and there's something available (and definitely very quick)?

NObody would mind THAT in any way. ;nod
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2018, 07:11:07 AM
I just want to point out that in the game that you could have transcended any time - why not rush through the three turns or whatever it takes, doing nothing that doesn't speed the build, for the sake of sweetening your audience's experience?  It's minutes of effort,


No, it was at least another hour of effort, as I said in the AAR.  And I was dead tired, and totally sick of pushing units around.  If you never personally reach the point of screaming ENOUGH! in a game, well you're wired differently than I am.  Additionally consider the burden of writing it all up as well.  It makes things take even longer.

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BOOM! there goes one of my concerns.

I don't share your concern about this.  I look at the 99.9% of an AAR that is there.  Not the 0.1% that you can easily imagine yourself.

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AARs are stories, y'know

No, they are writeups of tactics unless they're meant to be story driven narratives.  And the tactical value of "how would I have finished that last 0.1% of the game" is zero.  One of those games, I had Singularity engines, planetary drop squads, and whatever the size 30 gun is.  What's Morgan gonna do if I decide to win?  Nothing.  Summary execution.  Not even worth the time.

I would also point out, on the subject of "does 0.1% matter?" that you might be a Completionist.  I am not.  In the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, a strong desire for closure and orderliness corresponds to the Judger category.  The opposite, a person who prefers things open ended and uncommitted, is in the Perceiver category.  I'm about a 60/40 Perceiver/Judger split, and definitely biased towards the Perceiver way of looking at most things.  I don't need my AARs to be "polished to the last nail".

BTW morally speaking I don't like Transcend.  I think it's a completely creepy, morbid idea.  It's rather similar to the Buddhist concept of committing "suicide of the self", just to get off the wheel of life.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2018, 03:37:09 PM
An hour, really?

ISTR that you're not much for hab domes and populations over 16 - I like to grow all my cities as big as they can get with a bunch of Sky Hydroponics (and Nessus and Orbital), and crawler my capital -made a super science city because zero inefficiency with all the research-boosting SPs- all the way up to pop 127 which is the limit before a rollover bug kicks in, wait for the other factions to declare vendetta and whip them until there's only one faction with one city left, then play out the clock terraforming like it's Sim City and transcend in 2499.  It takes three turns at that point in my 127, Nessused-up, capital w/o cashing in any units.

I play on transcend on normal maps -because much bigger is too tedious for even my blood to fill up with bases- and use every exploit known to man and at least one I seem to be the discoverer of.  The community frowns on all the exploits I use as cheating, so there goes any AAR value, unless it was novelty value and demonstrating all the single player cheats for the record.  [shrugs]  One of my games tends to take about five days of doing very little else, well over 12 hours play a day, so I don't have to tell you it would take well over a month writing it up in any detail to speak of.  I enjoy playing that way, though, which is all that matters.  -It does skew my experience from the typical, though, thus my oversight in saying three turns.
;nod


Oh, and protip: in a recent game, you seemed to have gotten all the com frequencies first, and then raised EC selling some of them around.  I'd counsel you not to do that, as com frequency money is peanuts, and you enabled one of the others to call an election before you were ready.  Being governor is very lucrative, along with the other advantages; I never sell frequencies, and even back when I was playing more conventional games, I'd count up populations -or save scum calling a council meeting to save work/time- and call that election when I was on the ballot, able to either win outright or buy enough votes in advance (costs half as much if you do the bribing individually before calling the meeting).
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2018, 04:28:43 PM
An hour, really?

Do you have any idea how many Super Formers it takes to push rails instantly across Huge maps?

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ISTR that you're not much for hab domes and populations over 16

That is false.  I build them when I get the technology.  But if I get bored of a game long before then... anyways you can read the AAR in question and clearly see I had Hab Domes.

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I like to grow all my cities as big as they can get with a bunch of Sky Hydroponics (and Nessus and Orbital),

I have already long since conquered food and minerals issues on the ground.  I don't know if you automate but I work every square manually.  On a Huge map that's a lot of squares.  If all the satellites get fried in a storm, it won't matter to me at all.

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and crawler my capital

I energy crawl from my capitol if I have nothing better to do, picking up all the energy resources that are not being used by cities.  I often have better things to do though.

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-made a super science city because zero inefficiency

That's standard drill, as well as also having it be a super-economics city if I've managed to get the techs for it.  But I can't always get The Merchant Exchange.

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all the way up to pop 127 which is the limit before a rollover bug kicks in

You could have won the game far, far before then.  Highest I've recently gotten is into the 30s before finishing the tech tree.  If you're having fun, fine, but in my AARs there was a point at which I was not having fun, it was exhausting.

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I play on transcend on normal maps -because much bigger is too tedious for even my blood to fill up with bases-

So cut me some slack for not finishing the damn games to your exacting standards then!  I might be pushing a lot more stuff around than you are.  Definitely much longer distances even if the same amount of stuff.

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and use every exploit known to man and at least one I seem to be the discoverer of.

I don't.  Don't really care one way or the other, I just don't.  Most I'm ever guilty of is save scumming a bad combat roll, and that's rare for me to do anyways.

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One of my games tends to take about five days of doing very little else, well over 12 hours play a day, so I don't have to tell you it would take well over a month writing it up in any detail to speak of.

Many of my recent AARs have had 7..10 day time outlays of "heavy" play.  Which is why I often get to the point of !@#$ this.  And why I'll cut them off, because it's a lot of time out of one's real life.  Made doubly long by writing the AARs

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Oh, and protip: in a recent game, you seemed to have gotten all the com frequencies first, and then raised EC selling some of them around.  I'd counsel you not to do that, as com frequency money is peanuts, and you enabled one of the others to call an election before you were ready.

Not true.  I have enabled others to get in wars with each other, and to give me map info on people I'm at war with.  I've generally profited from the tech trades and come out with the most tech.  Remember also I am playing on Huge maps.  Factions don't just run into each other and it's not easy to push a skimship probe team to steal someone's map.  Rest assured that I have no problem with the phrase "Nope, haven't heard a word" when it suits my purposes.  I'm a ~20 year veteran I know why I'm doing things.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2018, 08:18:09 PM
Believe me, I do work every square by hand, and I was playing the demo obsessively in 1996 and am a 22 year veteran of the game. :D ;)

I may have to actually DO that novelty cheater AAR for your edification; my most recent game saw me with so many super formers, at the point I'd researched mag tubes, that that the F7 command nexus screen had rolled over, so north of 255 and I was able to -guessing- link all my bases, roughly 40 covering an entire normal map with few gaps for other factions, in something like 10 turns, maybe 20.  Yes; I do know - I just find terraforming fun.  (That game started won, 'cause I was doing the timewarp cheat, where I've never done it, but it's possible to win by transcendence on the second turn - second turn, but still takes RL days to do.)

I don't play like you do was my main point, there.  No attack in that.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 07, 2018, 05:37:05 AM
I think people would in fact be interested in a "weird cheat" AAR, same as people are interested in going to the Far Lands in Minecraft.  Today I tried posting a link to my current AAR on the Alpha Centuari Reddit subforum.  9 upvotes so far, which isn't awful I guess.

I say ~20 years because it sounds better.  If anyone literally narc'd me on when I started playing, they'd find out it's a lie.  My defense would be "close enough!"  I started playing it some time after it's release, maybe 1 to 2 years later.  I cut teeth on Civ II: Test of Time, probably in 1998 after I left DEC.  Once I got good at that, SMAC was the next obvious title available.  I'm definitely a 20 year Civ-style game player though.

I deliberately avoided Civ I in college, because I was afraid if I started playing it, it would seriously jeopardize my grades.  In hindsight I was absolutely correct.  I played all kinds of other games in college, including Galactic Trader on a VAX mainframe, wasting incredible amounts of time.  I was helped with Civ resistance by not owning a PC.  I was using public Macs to do my work, and to play my games.  There were PC labs available but I had to walk far to get to those, whereas a few Macs were in my dorm.

Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2018, 02:57:23 PM
The stuff is crack to our kind of personality, isn't it?  I discovered CivII after SMACX, and though it's primitive by that comparison, lacking the faction personality/story and features like terraforming, it's a solid little game of which I am quite fond, and has burned many weeks worth of my life.  It's the civ game other than SMACX I'd most like the forum to get into kicking around.

-All the traffic will bear, please, of members taking initiative spreading URLs of anything here to anything here, within sensible non-spammy limits about where and what and how often.  Two thumbs up for that.  ;b; ;b;


BTW, after I posted that, I realized it was only 1997 when I was obsessively playing the demo - found the full game in a $5 bin late in the year, and I still have that copy.  I'm super-cheap, but it was a sawbuck well, well-spent...
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 07, 2018, 03:41:13 PM
The stuff is crack to our kind of personality, isn't it?

Well you're not lying about that.  The job that I quit, before I got hooked on Civ II and then SMAC, was optimizing 3d graphics device drivers in DEC Alpha assembly code.  That's the ultimate in micromanagement.  That's why I'm so impressed, yet so saddened, by Yitzi's binary patching efforts.  I have the technical skills to do exactly the same thing, with a little learning curve about binary formats and tools etc.  Only to know that it it does no good, it won't make a good AI happen.

Every game of SMAC I play is about optimizing something.  Generally my growth rate against that of other factions.  The current Pirate AAR is challenging because I'm not sure what the reason for playing it is.  It's not about the reportage anymore, that's a byproduct.  I've made sure it's not going to be about popping pods.  I'm not sure I want it to be about drowning the planet, because I have lots of good land.  So what will it be about then?  I haven't found my direction yet.

Is there a sustainable rate of nuclear missile delivery?  Can I sink everyone else?

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  I discovered CivII after SMACX, and though it's primitive by that comparison, lacking the faction personality/story and features like terraforming, it's a solid little game of which I am quite fond, and has burned many weeks worth of my life.  It's the civ game other than SMACX I'd most like the forum to get into kicking around.

Interesting proposition, and it makes some sense.  I did not like Civ III.  Especially, I hated the number of revolts cities would go into.  You'd end up having to conquer everything twice.  Twice as many mouseclicks, twice as many units to push around.  I ended up snapping my CD in half, between my fingers.  That's how a lot of games that have frustrated me have ended.  Historically it was the only way to stop the disease, the point one gets to in the game where it's all diminishing returns.

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BTW, after I posted that, I realized it was only 1997 when I was obsessively playing the demo - found the full game in a $5 bin late in the year, and I still have that copy.  I'm super-cheap, but it was a sawbuck well, well-spent...

I paid reasonably full retail for my 1st copy of SMAC.  I destroyed it out of frustration at some point.  My 2nd copy, I paid $10 for a CD-only version at a used bookstore.  That I eventually destroyed as well, but I still have that jewel case, and I think also an original game manual.  This is why I keep shamelessly downloading a pirated GoG version and rage deleting it periodically.  Maybe I will finally toss GoG a couple of bucks at some point, but if I did that, I think it would keep me from destroying the game.  I'd need to look into whether their games can be re-downloaded again, like onto a new machine.  I am a bit of a Luddite about digital content delivery.  I don't have a digital-only license for anything.  I think the last game I actually bought was Civ IV, and that came with a traditional DVD.  Which I destroyed.  Played the Civ V demo heavily, saw they weren't fixing the major problems of Civ IV, so declined to deal with the franchise from then on.  Played Freeciv for years, which is essentially Civ II with like 3 tweaks.  Finally got tired of it and went back to playing SMAC, which is a better game.

Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Green1 on March 10, 2018, 04:19:00 AM
Just trying to help..

But people that read AARs or watch LPs do so for three main reasons.

- They want a story.
- They want to learn mechanics to improve their play.
- They want to see game play before they buy it. Make sure it does not suck.

Most of all, they want fun. An escape from the mundane.

If you are negative and have a callous attitude in an AAR or LP, why would a reader want to hang with you?


Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 12:38:20 PM
If you are negative and have a callous attitude in an AAR or LP, why would a reader want to hang with you?

In my specific case, because I'm offering far more mechanical insight than I'm offering negative comments.  Really, I mean with 39 AARs to my credit now, a simply vast amount of game mechanical analysis, I get tired of the harping on negative comments as some kind of dealbreaker.  The overwhelming majority of the work is tone neutral, "this happened at this time".  I've conceded that some of the negativity makes some of the AARs not suitable for front-and-center advertizing.  That doesn't make them valueless or repellant AARs by any means.  There are a lot of human beings out there, who respond to different things and have different needs.  Maybe as an expert player yourself, you tend to forget that tactical insight is valuable to people who are learning the game?

"Try before you buy" players, I've done them the favor of being thoroughly honest.  I don't require people to stick with my writings, my goal is to help someone.  The work has enough merit that some fans can be created, if there are any fans to be created at all, given the age of the game.  I do not insist on trying to turn everyone into a fan of my AARs, or the game.  Some people honestly shouldn't be playing SMAC, it won't be the game for them.

My attitude in that regard is very strongly related to my attempts to create games in general.  I am not going to try to please every gamer out there.  I'm not interested in making the maximum pile of money from the maximum number of people, as that means dumbing things down and appealing to the least common denominator of taste.  You love World of Warcraft??  Get lost!  Well that's a little harsh, people can like more than 1 kind of thing at a time, but I would never have designed WoW.  Don't care how much money it made, in my universe it's a boring RPG.

As for writing stories, I can seriously put that hat on.  I have those writing skills.  But it's already a lot of work to write up AARs as perfunctory accounts of tactics, because of the large maps and long games I'm doing.  Writing up a Roleplay AAR is a lot of narrative and storytelling work, basically an order of magnitude more "free content" to offer.  There's a point at which I think my writing skills should be monetized somehow, to justify that kind of effort spent.  For instance, I could be writing my own Choose Your Adventure games for that level of literary output.  So I'm disinclined to spend lots of time writing "good stories" because that stuff is actually valuable as a game developer.  If I do a really really good job, there are also copyright issues, and it should be licensed on my own website (which I don't currently have) so that copyright claim is clear.  Sites like this one, the usual arrangement in the Terms of Service is if I write it up, they can do lots of things with it, they have a number of claims on the work.

Having fun and escaping, I don't tend to write with those ideas in mind.  I must be getting something out of SMAC myself, as I do keep playing it and haven't given up on it.  But I approach it with the attitude of a would-be game designer, so possibly my explorations don't match someone else's notion of "fun".  Like, I don't think WoW is fun, I think it's a dead bore.  I would hope that SMAC finds its audience and that's communicated through my AARs somehow.  I mean heck, ya gotta find 4X TBS to be "fun", or else why read a bunch of AARs about it?
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 02:26:16 PM
We do have a writers' forum in need of some love - and I recall reading our TOS boilerplate and I hereby formally waive any legal or moral claim on people's fiction on behalf of myself, AC2, and my partner in same, sisko.  (I know considerable media/IP law from my communications degree; between you slapping a copywrite notice on everything and me being willing to publish disclaimers of any claim to your satisfaction, that takes it out of the public domain and puts you in a pretty unassailable legal position IRT to any hypothetical fiction published at this site.)

We do not waive our right to have some say on what meets our standards - but there's two semi-private (stuff in there, Googlebots can't see, so meets the legal standard of not public) subforums you won't have seen, because you have to join the Writers' membergroup, Adult Fiction (empty so far, but VERY lax standards of what's allowed) and Writers' Workhop, which has gotten some gratifying use and Elok found very helpful in writing his novel, The Curse of Life, on sale now.  Joining the membergroup is worth it for a chance to read Rusty Edge's excellent Known Space fanfic alone, in Workshop.

-Just throwing that out there, 'cause I really would like to see some action in the public forum and build a writers' community...
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Green1 on March 10, 2018, 02:51:29 PM
True...

But even the mechanical players want SOME resolution to the game other than "I just blew it of... Oh well..... time for AAR #55 that I will blow off too!!!!"

That is the elephant in the room.

That, and release schedule. Where do you find time? That's a lot of unfinished AAR threads. I managed to do around 7 or so. I think if I did more, people would get tired of my drunk, crud spamming arse and boot me off the forums.

I'd do less with an emphasis on quality and an ending. You won't get paid unless enjoyment process of long writing with pictures and playing combined is payment enough. That, and some of these neckbeards might actually nod at you.

Pretty soon, though, they might have to make another forum just for orphaned bvanevery AARs!! LOL..  :D

I'd take a break and enjoy the game. That way, you want get understandable crud for abandoning a too many game that got tedious.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 03:30:50 PM
Green, I SWEAR you never crowded any too-many limit - though you always crowd me in other ways. ;)  I wish you'd do more.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 03:38:24 PM
But even the mechanical players want SOME resolution to the game other than "I just blew it of... Oh well..... time for AAR #55 that I will blow off too!!!!"

Do they?  I don't know if you've followed the gory details when BUncle and I were fighting about earlier things; fortunately we're past all that now.  But one of the things I proved, is you yourself have one of the most popular AARs ever in terms of views, and it was unfinished work.  Now, maybe you'll say you finished some things and didn't finish others, so therefore people kept following you.  But in my case, 1/2 of my work was 99.9% finished.  So one way a player could actually satisfy that supposed craving for resolution, would be to read my AARs, instead of complaining about them.

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That is the elephant in the room.

The only elephant in the room is whether pushing buttons that officially say YOU WIN is a dealbreaker in someone's mind or not.  It isn't in mine.  I'm perfectly happy to knock the king over in a chess game, "mate in 2 moves".  I'm more interested in the question "why did you even play this game, what was worthwhile about it?"  That is answered by the 99.9% journey, not the 0.1% official ending.

Let it stand for the record, again, that I am not a Completionist.  I can't satisfy that craving in anyone.  I'm not going to "collect all six".  Plenty of people on the internet are not Completionists either.

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That, and release schedule. Where do you find time? That's a lot of unfinished AAR threads. I managed to do around 7 or so.

My 39 AARs represent a year's worth of work.  Thank you for letting me know how many you actually did, as I actually hadn't counted them up.  I hope you will consider the sheer volume of labor I've done, when making further critiques about any "elephants in the room".  For me, the "elephant in the room" is that I've done a far more gargantuan amount of work than anybody.  How good is the work?  Well a lot of it is decent, some of it can obviously stand improvement, but there sure is a lot of work.  And I think the difficulties of a person, who has done so much work, on such large games, should be respected more.

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I think if I did more, people would get tired of my drunk, crud spamming arse and boot me off the forums.

Is that tongue in cheek, or do you think your writing needs to improve?

I started looking at Paradox's AAR forum, to see what the typical level of writing was over there.  It can't be that high because I got bored.  I was mostly reading Europa Universalis IV AARs, since I did play EU I back in the day.  I started branching out to the various space opera games before getting tired of it.  I became more interested in the question, "what, if any, 4X TBS game has a decent AI?" and unfortunately the answer is none of them do.  Which diminished my interest in writing AARs for some other game with a bigger audience, and increased my interest in writing a 4X TBS that has a decent AI.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 03:50:23 PM
b, that's at least two other people besides me who've volunteered that they agree all the quitting is problematic.  Now, I'm not trying to re-visit that argument, but since it's come up again, I point that out.  I accept that you do what you chose, and I've made my peace with it.

As you were, men.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 03:56:45 PM
-Just throwing that out there, 'cause I really would like to see some action in the public forum and build a writers' community...

Yeah... the problem is that for serious writing, needing an audience isn't just "nice to have" for me anymore.  It's mandatory.  The last free writing anyone got, was my fanfic about what would happen if Bilbo had died in Smaug's cave.  I don't expect anyone to "bow down" to me, but I've been told by several people that it's a good piece of writing.  Hmm, now I can't even find it on Reddit anymore.  That's weird, I wonder if they actually delete old posts in /r/WritingPrompts?  In which case, I'm beyond having no audience, it was totally drowned by other prompts even when I wrote it.  Took a look at all the accompanying spam, and it was like trying to sell literature in a flea market!  It impressed upon me the difficulties of gaining a real audience, let alone monetizing it.  I have several writer friends who are excellent but still haven't pulled it off.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Green1 on March 10, 2018, 03:57:20 PM
I am always tongue in cheek :D

Carry on.

Maybe one day we both can write our BoatMurdered (perhaps the best AAR on the internet).

Of course, you know, we still need to tie the modders down, stick them in a room full of energy drinks, and not let them out till they have something awesome. I hear they complain less if you beat them. Maybe have BU as the camp overseer. Won't happen for a game this old and those that can (like the kid that adjusted the UI for his out of college resume who probably had a former Firaxis mentor with some source code) won't because :EA:.

(I used to know someone that was a QA manager at EA Baton Rouge. Yes, they ARE evil currently. But that is another tale.)







Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 04:05:07 PM
Getting people on the innerwebs you've never met to do things is more an art than a craft, and always needs a combination of shameless persistence and a deft hand at nudging.  If someone had a grand overall vision for a major modding project, I would be inclined to do some contacting around and try to organize something.  It's tilting at windmills, but I'm here for the people interaction, which -- a project is on-topic activity --- and sometimes, the ogre gets slain.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 04:11:06 PM
b, that's at least two other people besides me who've volunteered that they agree all the quitting is problematic. 

My view on that: it bothers someone.  It bothers 3 of you, for instance.  One can presume there are other people on the internet who are bothered by it.  However the internet is a large place, with a lot of diversity of opinion on what's good or bad.  It is not generally speaking the metric of an author to make sure that everyone is satisfied, in all the ways they wish to be satisfied.  Audiences do sort themselves out.  Traffic arguments are an experiment, measured by page hits, not an a priori certainty.  3 people may think it's the end of the world, 7 people may like it just fine, or vice versa.

Authors and game designers also take "objections" from audiences with grains of salt.  Audiences are often not articulate about what exactly their problem with a work is.  They know something is bugging them, but they don't usually do a good job of separating out what the problem really is.  For instance in the present instance, it took some time to sort out that negativity is the bigger problem, as opposed to quitting.  Those concerns are interrelated, but they're also separable.

Let's say I wrote an AAR that was all filled with happy sauce.  Just ponies farting rainbows everywhere, Chairman Yang's genejacks dancing mad happy about how much they were contributing to the Recycling Tanks.  Totally worthy of a Placator merit badge, soma to spare.  And I didn't finish it, in the same 99.9% sense that I've not finished a lot of my games.  Knocked the king over, "mate in 2 moves".  If I had totally pumped sunshine up your skirt the whole time, how difficult do you imagine it would be to swallow my AAR?

Let's say I did the opposite.  Pissed and moaned about what a lousy game SMAC is, the whole !@#$@# time.  How boring it is to push the units around, oh I'm being griefed by a market crash again, etc. yadda yadda.  But by gum it was a long writeup and I hit the "I WIN" buttons like a good little Completionist. 

Which do you want on your HOME page?  I hope the point is abundantly clear.  Negativity is a far bigger problem than quitting.  I think we already agreed on this some time ago, and that was the basis for us moving on.  Negativity is something that, past a certain point, I do take seriously.  That's why this thread exists.


Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Green1 on March 10, 2018, 04:17:06 PM
-Just throwing that out there, 'cause I really would like to see some action in the public forum and build a writers' community...

Yeah... the problem is that for serious writing, needing an audience isn't just "nice to have" for me anymore.  It's mandatory.  The last free writing anyone got, was my fanfic about what would happen if Bilbo had died in Smaug's cave.  I don't expect anyone to "bow down" to me, but I've been told by several people that it's a good piece of writing.  Hmm, now I can't even find it on Reddit anymore.  That's weird, I wonder if they actually delete old posts in /r/WritingPrompts?  In which case, I'm beyond having no audience, it was totally drowned by other prompts even when I wrote it.  Took a look at all the accompanying spam, and it was like trying to sell literature in a flea market!  It impressed upon me the difficulties of gaining a real audience, let alone monetizing it.  I have several writer friends who are excellent but still haven't pulled it off.


It's hard, man.

I have made a total of maybe 150 USD to 180 USD off writing. Some from ghost writing a deal for a role playing game. Another from a project.

See, the problem is multi fold.

- People nowadays read less. Yes, this does affect forums. There are less forums covering pretty much any topic you can think of. Many companies are shutting down forums for their product on their own website.
- LOTS of people want to do writing.  Don't blame them. Did you know the Huffington post does not pay writers?
- A lot of the writers, particularly the gaming world, all know each other. They were in the same voice chat in the right guilds. They went to the same conventions. They think alike and are the same types of people.
- If you want tons of readers, you need a more mainstream stuff. And it's time dependent.

AC is too, too niche for that, if that is your goal. If not... continue forward.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 04:25:59 PM
Getting people on the innerwebs you've never met to do things is more an art than a craft,

I have a fair number of war stories to tell about Open Source projects.  The bottom line is anything I ever wanted done right, I had to do it myself.  I've never had work partners that survived political umbrages, and they've cost me serious career detriment, to the tune of 1.5 man years out of my life.  More if one counts my failed relationship with the CMake developers, although strategically, that's more the problem of being a "build systems guy" in the 1st place.

I'm still jousting at "the perfect game programmer's language, for someone who preferred ASM but wants better".  Nobody's done it right.  Jonathan Blow articulated many of the problems, and started working on something, but he hasn't shipped.  No other public game industry persona has even tried.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 04:29:22 PM
b, that's at least two other people besides me who've volunteered that they agree all the quitting is problematic. 

My view on that: it bothers someone.  It bothers 3 of you, for instance.  One can presume there are other people on the internet who are bothered by it.  However the internet is a large place, with a lot of diversity of opinion on what's good or bad.  It is not generally speaking the metric of an author to make sure that everyone is satisfied, in all the ways they wish to be satisfied.  Audiences do sort themselves out.  Traffic arguments are an experiment, measured by page hits, not an a priori certainty.  3 people may think it's the end of the world, 7 people may like it just fine, or vice versa.

Authors and game designers also take "objections" from audiences with grains of salt.  Audiences are often not articulate about what exactly their problem with a work is.  They know something is bugging them, but they don't usually do a good job of separating out what the problem really is.  For instance in the present instance, it took some time to sort out that negativity is the bigger problem, as opposed to quitting.  Those concerns are interrelated, but they're also separable.

Let's say I wrote an AAR that was all filled with happy sauce.  Just ponies farting rainbows everywhere, Chairman Yang's genejacks dancing mad happy about how much they were contributing to the Recycling Tanks.  Totally worthy of a Placator merit badge, soma to spare.  And I didn't finish it, in the same 99.9% sense that I've not finished a lot of my games.  Knocked the king over, "mate in 2 moves".  If I had totally pumped sunshine up your skirt the whole time, how difficult do you imagine it would be to swallow my AAR?

Let's say I did the opposite.  Pissed and moaned about what a lousy game SMAC is, the whole !@#$@# time.  How boring it is to push the units around, oh I'm being griefed by a market crash again, etc. yadda yadda.  But by gum it was a long writeup and I hit the "I WIN" buttons like a good little Completionist. 

Which do you want on your HOME page?  I hope the point is abundantly clear.  Negativity is a far bigger problem than quitting.  I think we already agreed on this some time ago, and that was the basis for us moving on.  Negativity is something that, past a certain point, I do take seriously.  That's why this thread exists.



Have you got debate training?  To say simply that I believe the opposition has failed to make its case and sit back down is considered a valid  -if risky and therefore showy and pick your shots very carefully- tactic.  I do not invoke that in this case -though there's the temptation- because I've moved on; our conversations have other topics we can profitably pursue.  -BUT, wow, this IS going to come up again if anyone takes an interest enough to do some serious reading in here and bothers to express an opinion, high-confidence projection.

But it won't be me bringing it, up, I'm sure.  I done said I accept that you're determined to be stubborn on the point.  Just sayin' and not interested in pursuing further.

[ninja'd] I've actually been a professional writer, of sorts, and made considerably more money writing - but that was at a very bad newspaper, and not for all that long, and nothing to be all that proud of...
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 04:40:32 PM
Did you know the Huffington post does not pay writers?

No I didn't.  That's dire.

Quote
- A lot of the writers, particularly the gaming world, all know each other. They were in the same voice chat in the right guilds. They went to the same conventions. They think alike and are the same types of people.

To date I've thought writing in the game industry is a low prestige, irritating way to go, because it's the Production Manager, programmers, and game designer, in roughly that order, who determine what you're stuck with.  You have to be ok with writing around the other dictates of the project, for the most part.  Someone hands you a turd, you have to try to figure out how to make it not smell so bad.  Screenwriters have that problem too but game industry people have it way worse.  There's just not enough prestige and money to showcase one's craft.

Since I have many of the other skills needed to produce a complete game, I thought it better to work on my own stuff and not deal with other people's drama.  I can do the programming, I can do the art.  I'm sure I can even hum a few bars at the business side of things, even if it's not my cup of tea.  I can put a bit of a marketing and promotion hat on.  The problem of course is there's only me and I have to try to get all of those things done.  But I've got 1 life to live and this is the problem I put in front of myself, to spend my time trying to do.  Not giving up any time soon.

Quote
- If you want tons of readers, you need a more mainstream stuff. And it's time dependent.

AC is too, too niche for that, if that is your goal. If not... continue forward.

I do wonder about the healthiness of working on the 4X TBS genre at all.  Definitely people have noted the thanklessness of it.  People historically have noted the thanklessness of Grognards in wargaming as well.  On the other hand, the fact that nobody did better than SMAC, or even matched it frankly, smells like a market opportunity for the right individual.  If you're the wrong individual or team though, you get killed in 4X TBS.  The recent study on that would seem to be StarDrive 2.  Apparently they got some critical success, but they subsequently folded up shop for some reason?  I haven't finished postmorteming them.  They had an active developer in the Reddit /r/4Xgaming subreddit for some time.  Some people would complain at him, and I wonder at the time expenditure of allowing people to do that.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 04:45:08 PM
EA is a problem for any SMAC2, alas, apparently an insurmountable one.  -And I daresay if the rights could be untangled, Firaxis has to work through 2K and --- my experience with THOSE guys does not take my hand and wander sweetly over to the optimism tree.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Green1 on March 10, 2018, 05:13:06 PM
EA is a problem for any SMAC2, alas, apparently an insurmountable one.  -And I daresay if the rights could be untangled, Firaxis has to work through 2K and --- my experience with THOSE guys does not take my hand and wander sweetly over to the optimism tree.

Nope. Me either. Anyone attempting anything more serious than amateur modding is going to be hit with love letters from a copy write lawyer real quick.

Quote
People historically have noted the thanklessness of Grognards in wargaming as well

The wargamers may be thankless. But, at least they are not outright abusive and they have intelligence (sometimes).

There's lots of folks into MOBAs. MOBA communities are so toxic and juvenile, even the developers don't read the forums. People that have some sort of in-game epeen make some change. But, its all videos. But, if you don't have a good voice, personality, decent set up, or are on the list of the great world esports players (over the hill by age 23)... you are crap. Of course, they have TONS more people looking for ways to pwn noobs so even crap outlets get views.

That said, when wargamers do rage, they go off in anal-retentive nerd rage glory. But at least they do not wish for you to take your laptop cord and strangle yourself because you did not beat the Deity challenge fifty times on Civ fanatics.

Quote
I do wonder about the healthiness of working on the 4X TBS genre at all.  Definitely people have noted the thanklessness of it.  People historically have noted the thanklessness of Grognards in wargaming as well.  On the other hand, the fact that nobody did better than SMAC, or even matched it frankly, smells like a market opportunity for the right individual.  If you're the wrong individual or team though, you get killed in 4X TBS.  The recent study on that would seem to be Star Drive 2.  Apparently they got some critical success, but they subsequently folded up shop for some reason.  I haven't finished postmorteming them.  They had an active developer in the Reddit /r/4Xgaming for some time.  Some people would complain at him, and I wonder at the time expenditure of allowing people to do that.

You see, a great majority of AAR readers (that are lurkers) never play the game. They want stories.

Dwarf Fortress is a great example. 1980 called and wanted it's interface back, yes. Then again, many of the games of the 1980s had better interface. Most people don't have the time nor inclination to sit through a play session. BUT - they love the stories.

Can't ignore that. Why turn down the views?

Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 05:57:17 PM
That said, when wargamers do rage, they go off in anal-retentive nerd rage glory.

I never really forgave the guy at The Wargamer who reamed TOAW back in the day, for the imperfect combat system where 1000 trucks would beat a tank and so forth.  The reviewer was testing and abusing the model to a degree that never actually occurred in a real game.  A modern day equivalent would be going to The Far Lands in Minecraft and pitching a [complaint or disagreeable woman] that it doesn't work, rather than just regarding the bugs as interesting, possibly beautiful curiosities.  The thanklessness is because wargaming disproportionately draws hardcore SimulationistsGod Help You if your simulation is found to be inadequate in some way!  And it's not like these people fork over enough money to pay for the level of engineering their oh-so-high standards would require.  You want a bridge, that you can drive over without drowning? Pay me to build a bridge.

Quote
You see, a great majority of AAR readers (that are lurkers) never play the game. They want stories.

What good are they though, as part of a community?  Let's say your website is not monetized and you're not getting paid for views on an AAR.   Do they contribute to a community in any way, or do they just free ride?  Apple computer would probably say these are not good customers, not worth having.  I guess they could have value if they told someone about your site who does contribute something, but again, what are the causal relationships?  I've been a heavy participant in any forum I've ever been to.  As you can tell, I definitely have a participant bias.  What's the case to be made for lurkers?

Also, I have to say, the idea of reading lots of stories about games you've never played, sounds absolutely baffling to me.  I could understand not playing "much".  Or maybe someone played once upon a time, but doesn't have the time anymore.  But really, just here for the stories, don't even know how the game is played?  That's weird.

Quote
Dwarf Fortress is a great example. 1980 called and wanted it's interface back, yes. Then again, many of the games of the 1980s had better interface. Most people don't have the time nor inclination to sit through a play session. BUT - they love the stories.

I've read very few of those.  DF itself has a pretty involved simulation, potentially giving an AAR writer a lot of scope to write about.  "You will be amazed by this thing that happened!"  I will take a look at DF again and see if its narrative arts have risen to any particularly interesting height.  But make no mistake: SMAC is not DF.  There isn't as much to write about.

Quote
Can't ignore that. Why turn down the views?

What does one get from views?  Money?  Career status?  Business partners?
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
Lurkers are where little newbs come from -thus, future comments- and I decided to do ads and make some overhead back -invisible to registered, logged-in members- years ago and am still waiting for tech support to step up...
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 06:12:23 PM
I don't think that's the same kind of lurker as previously described.  What you're describing, is someone who's checking out the game and the site, to see if it fits them.  Things like a Beginner's AAR would be important to them, maybe, if not too long winded.  Better would be a bunch of specific isolated tactical guides, like "10 stupid supply crawler tricks" or some such.

The kind of lurker who sits around forever, reading stories about a game they've never even played... of what value is such a person in a community?  Do they share their interest with other people?  Or is it very self-absorbed, a way of having fun with duh internets that doesn't cost them anything?

A customer who bought a game and played it, and then lurks on the developer's website, is valuable because they might buy another title from that developer in the future.  It's also a little more sane from a mental health standpoint, as at least they tried the game.

The irony of all of this is I have considered writing something like a "SMAC screensaver" simulation.  The game's too long, people don't want to play it, but the simulation could be interesting... why not let a huge simulation run and have people stare at the fishbowl?  Compare Progress Quest (http://progressquest.com/).
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Green1 on March 10, 2018, 06:18:03 PM
Quote
What does one get from views?  Money?  Career status?  Business partners?

Nope. None of those things.

Practice. And space in your head to occupy yourself.


Listen, man. I have been where you have been except I did not have a car. Some of those AARs I wrote while in that situation. I will tell you the whole time in that tent in New Orleans there was a certain relief as to not have to enrich landlords. If I got a crap job where some boss was being a jerk, I could walk away. WTF are you going to do to me? Make me homeless? There is something... revolutionary and empowering in that. I had visions of being some kind of Aaaron Clarey minus the mysogony.

But that is a situation. Situations change.

How did I get out of it?

Well, I took an inventory of myself after a beer or four. The job offers I was getting in New Orleans were not enough to pay the ever gentrifying rent there and were from employers that had reputations of going through employees faster than an incontinent nursing home patient on diuretics goes through diapers. That, and I realized that the employers in my field did NOT want people like myself. I was in the wrong field and it was tinkling me off and them.

I scraped up money from temp gigs, and moved to a city that had more jobs and more affordable rent for the gigs I was getting. Got hired at a plant, made money, got another job, saved money, met a great girl, and now am dabbling in craft fairs.

This too passes. People that have not been through this will never understand.

Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 06:23:30 PM
Y'all don't got to think about the big picture and the future of AC2, and all that stuff, if you don't see your self-interest in having enough cool people here making comments and conversation, though you maybe should; being in charge, it ain't optional for ME.

-Always juggling a lot of eggs, if I'm doing anything at all, and building the place is one of them, and if I didn't know what I was doing, we wouldn't be here at all.  I gotta worry about bait, and lurkers, and newbs, and all that's on top of being the janitor and the architect, alike, and keeping the peace in an inherently low-social-skills (not excepting myself; I have to work very hard at it) demographic.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 06:28:36 PM
Heh, I have declined to write "the public monetized ballad of a homeless guy living out of his car with his dog", obvious though that may have been to do.  I doubt there can be any serious money in it, and it would be a lot of work for a pittance.  There's also the problem of being inauthentic: any kind of success, ends the reason to write!  Unless one lies.  All I've actually cared to write, are treatises on "how to do this same as me", for those motivated enough to figure such things out.  I went to Reddit's forums on this sort of thing recently, and dumped the contents of my brain for awhile.  It's all there in the archives now.  So if someone has the minimum discipline of searching archives, instead of asking the same old questions every day, they can get the answers.

The community itself proved to have no other value to me.  For one thing, I came to realize that the overall environment of Reddit towards women is toxic and I'll never get a date from those van/car dweller forums.  Women lurk and flee as a matter of survival.  For another thing, those places are overrun by rich people who do expensive builds.  Glory hounds on YouTube, typically.  They don't live like I do, they aren't practical with "any vehicle you have, any life skill you already have, any money you don't have".  Finally, even with people who are living like I do, I'd just get in fights wtih them about stupid things.  Differences of personality, some jerk who's handling his self-image problems by declaring everyone on food stamps to be the scum of the earth, people with obsessive fears about the image of homelessness... low consciousness stuff.  Should I be shocked?  No, I shouldn't be, but there wasn't a sense of shared value there, so I moved on.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 06:31:41 PM
That's three of you, you know, with at least extensive background in 'non-traditional living modes'; you two and E_T.  Plenty enough to start a thread in Rec Commons and shoot the breeze or whatever. Uno knows a little something, too, though he's not volunteered much, to date...
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 06:33:19 PM
if you don't see your self-interest in having enough cool people here making comments and conversation,

A lurker who never talks and just absorbs free content forever, isn't making comments and conversation.  The design problem is "what transitions this person to being a speaking participant?"  Writing a bevy of narrative heavy AARs so they can continue to feed themselves in quiet isolation, ain't the way.  Tons of work for me, they don't provide anything to anyone else in return.

Users of Open Source software programs at least report bugs.  Some do, at any rate.

There's also the implicit "gift culture" that although you may not give anything back to me, you may be working on some other project where you're giving to something else.  So the entireity of Open Source culture rises.  That doesn't help a specific site though, like say about SMAC.  Such a site has local problems it needs to solve to stay alive.  It can't afford to have every concern be about altruistic global Open Source problems.  Similarly, the internet is littered with the bones of thousands of dead Open Source projects.  Can't keep developers and maintainers, then the project folds.



Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 06:38:57 PM
It's a numbers game, sir; a fraction lurks twice, a fraction of that browses frequently in the long-run, a fraction of that signs up, and a fraction of that turns into regulars.  It's a big pie to slice fine, and a proven working model, and I cherish all my friends here.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 06:41:43 PM
I still don't think we're debating the conceptual model of the first time lurker.

I will have to find out more about Dwarf Fortress permalurkers.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Green1 on March 10, 2018, 06:47:24 PM
Heh, I have declined to write "the public monetized ballad of a homeless guy living out of his car with his dog", obvious though that may have been to do.  I doubt there can be any serious money in it, and it would be a lot of work for a pittance.  There's also the problem of being inauthentic: any kind of success, ends the reason to write!  Unless one lies.  All I've actually cared to write, are treatises on "how to do this same as me", for those motivated enough to figure such things out.  I went to Reddit's forums on this sort of thing recently, and dumped the contents of my brain for awhile.  It's all there in the archives now.  So if someone has the minimum discipline of searching archives, instead of asking the same old questions every day, they can get the answers.

The community itself proved to have no other value to me.  For one thing, I came to realize that the overall environment of Reddit towards women is toxic and I'll never get a date from those van/car dweller forums.  Women lurk and flee as a matter of survival.  For another thing, those places are overrun by rich people who do expensive builds.  Glory hounds on YouTube, typically.  They don't live like I do, they aren't practical with "any vehicle you have, any life skill you already have, any money you don't have".  Finally, even with people who are living like I do, I'd just get in fights wtih them about stupid things.  Differences of personality, some jerk who's handling his self-image problems by declaring everyone on food stamps to be the scum of the earth, people with obsessive fears about the image of homelessness... low consciousness stuff.  Should I be shocked?  No, I shouldn't be, but there wasn't a sense of shared value there, so I moved on.


Monetized stories about homeless dude in a car with dog is e-begging and bites you in the ass eventually. Most care more about the darn dog and the moment you aren't a poor, unfortunate thing to gawk at or feel superior to, the trivial amount of money dries up. Nor or they your friend. Sympathy always sucked. You are right for not falling into that. There is a possibility of non-profit, but everyone in their brother wants an "advocacy" lay out desk job that is incredibly easy. They only want cetain people for that, and those people never quit. Now, what those guys really want is someone to fund raise cold calling arse wipes reminding them to give so everyone gets paid and maybe 10 percent go to someone who meets certain very narrow requirements. Not that there is anything wrong with that if it gets you in air conditioning and not cramped in a car and you can save up.

Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 06:52:37 PM
Frankly I have computer programming skills and much better ways to [prostitute] myself if were really to choose to do it.

Maybe we should shift some of this to the Rec Commons rather than using this thread as a catch-all, if there's even anything left to say on the subject.  We're pretty much on the same page about homeless stuff.
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
Please.

And every lurker has a first lurk, so maybe we need to define terms of something...
Title: Re: summary of negativity in my recent AARs
Post by: bvanevery on March 10, 2018, 08:08:43 PM
I created a DF topic in "Other Games".  It is intended to cover the topic of lurkers who read DF stories but don't play the game, although it could develop a life of its own.
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