Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on May 06, 2016, 01:46:21 PM

Title: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 06, 2016, 01:46:21 PM
This is my son's History teacher btw. 

http://www.standard.net/Education/2016/05/06/South-Ogden-Jr-High-teacher-speaks-on-racial-slur-movie-policy (http://www.standard.net/Education/2016/05/06/South-Ogden-Jr-High-teacher-speaks-on-racial-slur-movie-policy)

Quote
SOUTH OGDEN — A history teacher who used a racial slur in a classroom discussion says he meant no harm, but was trying to educate students and prepare them to watch a movie about the Civil War.

Teacher Douglas Barker planned to show the film “Glory” to his history class at South Ogden Junior High. The movie includes the repeated use of the racial slur, and Barker discussed it with his students.

Parent Holly Frye, who is black, found Barker’s use and discussion of the word offensive, according to an Associated Press report about the incident, and wants the teacher fired.

Barker said he discussed the slur with students Friday, April 22. Frye complained to the school and district at the beginning of the following school week. Barker said he doesn’t know how Frye learned of the discussion, but assumed her son talked to her about it.

Weber School District spokesman Nate Taggart said the district launched an investigation immediately upon receiving the complaint, which concluded on April 29.

“We are ready to put this behind us and focus on educating students,” Taggart said.

Barker told the Standard-Examiner he didn’t mean to offend anyone.

“I did make reference that this — the n-word — does offend people, and that's why we don’t use it. So, I guess out of ignorance on my part, I said the word so they understood what I was saying.”
•RELATED: South Ogden Jr. High teacher violated policy by using racial slur

South Ogden Junior High has 818 students. According to Taggart, there are 30 black students, 608 white students, 19 Asian students, 141 Hispanic students, 7 American Indian students, and 13 Pacific Islanders. He did not have a breakdown for the students in Barker’s class during the incident.

Barker, who is white, said he didn’t mean to be insensitive or to hurt feelings when he discussed the use of a racial slur with students in class.

“I just told them we don’t use it any more,” he said. “I told them what it meant, and it’s offensive in society today, and always has been to people.”

The character portrayed by actor Denzel Washington uses the word several times in the film, and Barker said he was was trying to prepare students.

“In historical context, I was explaining the word and why we don't use it,” he said.

Barker said he also discussed how far the country has come since the Civil War, using as examples the appointment of Colin Powell as the first African-American secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice as the first African-American woman in that role and the election of President Barack Obama.

According to the Associated Press report, Frye said her 14-year-old son, D.J., no longer feels safe in Barker’s class because of the discussion. Attempts by the Standard-Examiner Thursday to contact Frye were unsuccessful.

Taggart said the investigation conducted by the school district included having students who were in the class write statements about what they heard and how they felt about it. District officials felt the students’ statements about how they perceived the incident backed up Barker’s explanation of what he was trying to accomplish, according to Taggart.

The Standard-Examiner requested copies of the students’ statements, but the request was denied by the school district. Taggart said the request was denied because of FERPA (the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act), which protects students. The statements are student records and thus protected, he said.

Parent Gwynne Gomez, who is white, said her daughter was in the class during the discussion and backed up the explanation given by Barker. Gomez said her daughter is of mixed race, Mexican and white.

“I think he’s an amazing teacher,” Gomez said. “I don’t think he should be fired from the school district for showing a movie I saw in school.”

Barker has not been fired, but Taggart said use of the term is not appropriate in any classroom context.

“Appropriate disciplinary action has been taken,” Taggart said, but would not elaborate, citing employee privacy rights.

Barker said he was on leave during the investigation and returned to the classroom May 1.

• RELATED: Commentary: Liberal ideals are stunting speech on college campuses

“Glory,” released in 1989, is about the struggles and treatment of African-American soldiers during the U.S. Civil War.

Gomez said the only time she saw the movie was during a history class, when she was a student in Nevada.

“I’m OK with my kids watching that kind of stuff,” she said. “It’s our history.”

Taggart confirmed Barker was in violation of district policy when he showed the film. Policy 8400, on video usage, states junior high schools may show PG-rated videos with approval of the building administrator and written approval from parents.

“Glory” is rated R, but Barker said the version made available to schools is edited to PG standards.

“We've had it approved in the district in the past,” Barker said.

The violation, he said, was related to a change in the parent permission process.

“I didn't know the policy had changed,” he said. “That's on me.”

On the district’s website, policy 8400 is marked with a date of January 1997. There is no note on the page stating whether or not a change has been made.

Barker said he sent home a disclosure at the beginning of the year for parents to sign, stating that some PG movies might be shown for educational purposes.

“I thought that covered it, but the policy now states that for any movie that is rated PG there needs to be a permission slip sent home to parents,” he said.

Barker, who is also a member of Ogden School District’s Board of Education, said he’s shown the film in classes for about 10 years and this is the first complaint he’s had.

“We didn't show the whole movie,” Barker said, explaining that he pulled this year’s screening when Frye complained. “I was being sensitive to the feelings of the parent.”

Frye wants Weber School District to provide sensitivity training for its educators, according to the AP report.

“Training is required for all employees yearly,” Taggart said in an email, but added he’s not aware of any formal training for history teachers regarding how to deal with offensive terms used during the Civil War era and other times in history.

Clay Rasmussen, an assistant professor of teacher education at Weber State University who has helped prepare future social studies teachers, said he doesn’t know if there is any direct training on how to handle the use of racial slurs in historical context.

“There’s always discussion of being considerate of others’ feelings,” he said. “The training is on how to address sensitive issues, remembering where we are today and also where we’re trying to go, trying to respect everyone and support everyone, and trying to learn from our past.”

You can reach reporter Becky Wright at [email protected] or at 801-625-4274. Follow her on Twitter at @ReporterBWright or like her on Facebook.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 06, 2016, 01:48:05 PM
On a side note, I guess I need to find a copy of Glory for my son to watch now...I do consider it worthwhile viewing. 

I will say the teacher has been MOST inventive on what he has the kids watching in class.  HBO specials, History channel stuff, all over dramatized but high production value and educational stuff. 



Another aside:

My history teacher in high school got disciplined for showing Nazi propaganda as part of the WWII section of history....
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Lorizael on May 06, 2016, 02:18:23 PM
Which words are the racial slurs we're not supposed to use?
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 06, 2016, 02:47:25 PM
[black and proud].
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Lorizael on May 06, 2016, 03:07:33 PM
Bingo.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 06, 2016, 03:39:14 PM
I'm not aware of a pejorative ethnic application of the word "bingo".  -It does kinda sound like one, though.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Lorizael on May 06, 2016, 03:46:50 PM
 ;lol

Re: OP, we have to be able to talk about difficult subjects, even if doing so is unpleasant. I don't think we'll ever be able to eliminate racism by sealing it away in a box.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 06, 2016, 03:49:59 PM
Do we have any Germans here? 


I would be curious for an objective view of how outlawing anything related to the Nazi party has been effective...it's the only place I can think that has attempted just outright squashing of historical unpleasantries. 
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 06, 2016, 03:58:46 PM
Eedee, darkestcolors and Yabcock, off the top of my head, are of the Kraut persuasion.  Eedee has remarked about how profoundly uncomfortable Germans are about the unpleasantness of 70+ years ago - see Rusty's Military/Naval history thread.

On a closely-related note, as a pale native of the southeastern US, I don't much want to talk about it, ever, either...  Never seen Glory for that matter, and not curious.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 06, 2016, 04:21:10 PM
Glory, Gone With the Wind and Soldier Blue were films mom found to be mandatory viewing for their historical value. 

Soldier Blue is probably not the best thing to be showing a 6 year old...or maybe she was going for immersion therapy by that point.   

Glory, at least, is one many people seem to agree with her on.  It (edited version) was shown in school back when I was going. 
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 06, 2016, 06:18:49 PM
When I read the title, I thought I can't think of an appropriate situation, and then I concluded- in a play or other historical context.

Now I can understand the fuss that occurred when a teacher had the black student read the black parts of Huck Finn aloud to class so that they would "sound more natural".

I don't understand why the student doesn't feel safe in history class.

I think it's one thing to be polite and considerate as I always strive to do, and entirely another thing when people aren't allowed to use words, even in an educational context such as a high school (where kids are expected to build their vocabularies) or a college (where young adults are supposed to be exposed to new ideas), lest somebody be afraid. 

My German uncle always share his love of aircraft with my brother and I. My brother knew a Dutch college professor pilot who used to fly a Messerschersmitt.  Once something came up in conversation that puzzled my cousin. I explained that Holland was second only to Austria in volunteers for the German military.

She raised one eyebrow and said "Oh, really? I've only ever heard of the valiant resistance fighters."

Strange things start to happen when you edit history. Maybe you even get to repeat it.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Valka on May 07, 2016, 03:53:24 AM
Did the teacher warn the class ahead of time that he would be explaining this word?

I'm reminded of my Classical History course in college when, on the first day of class, the instructor told us that at some point in the Roman portion of the class, he would be discussing the Crucifixion in a political/historical context, and not in a religious context. He said that what happened every term that he taught the course, at least one person would get offended - not because of any intentional offense, but just because some people have trouble looking at this event objectively. He said he was not pushing any agenda, and always strove to be completely neutral. I think he succeeded quite well, although a friend of mine started arguing with him, and there were indeed two students who abruptly got up, stomped out in a huff, and slammed the door behind them. There were two of us in the class who were atheist, and we just exchanged bemused glances and continued taking notes.

As for the students who walked out, I don't remember if they came back the next day. If not, it's their own problem. They had three months' advance warning that this topic was going to come up, and they can't claim that it was suddenly sprung on them.

That said... how on earth do you discuss a word and its historical and modern context if you're not allowed to say what the word is?
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Yitzi on May 17, 2016, 09:34:34 PM
As long as you're just quoting what other people said, it's fine.

(There are also rare cases when it's fine anyway...but that requires some really strange situations.)
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Oerdin on May 23, 2016, 10:45:50 AM
He was trying to explain it in context so the PC police shpuld shut the [fuddle-duddle] up and get over themselves.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Eadee on May 25, 2016, 09:34:32 PM
Do we have any Germans here? 


I would be curious for an objective view of how outlawing anything related to the Nazi party has been effective...it's the only place I can think that has attempted just outright squashing of historical unpleasantries.

German reporting in.
What exactly do you mean by squashing of historical unpleasantries?


There's a lot of stuff forbidden such as:
Use of Nazi Symbols.
Use of Nazi-greeting.
Denying the Holocaust.
And several other things.

However noone's going to bat an eye if there is a Nazi-Symbol somewhere in a picture of WW2 in a school-book, they just won't print the symbol right on a cover of a book about WW2.
If you discuss the Third Reich its also okayish to say they had to greet each other with the phrase "Heil Hitler" as long as you are clearly just discussing objectively not shouting it out or making the corresponding gesture.
As a politican or celebrity I would even refrain from citing it on Camera, I mean, Youtube, people editing stuff... you know.

The average person in Germany just isn't comfortable discussing this topic, but most feel obliged to contribute something to it because if they remained silent one might think that they're secretly nazis. However in school the topic of WW2 is streched over several years so it gets quite annoying (at least it did for me).

To get back on track:
I think a teacher saying the "N"-word to explain it should be perfectly fine. Kids gotta have a chance to learn stuff in an objective context. And yes, probably every kid in that classroom did know the word before, and probably every kid in that classroom did know what it meant before. But its a good sign when you get confirmation in school about things you already learned out of school, this gives Kids the self assurance to be able to discuss stuff and be part of a democracy where you're supposed to have free speach and the right to discuss political and other topics.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 25, 2016, 11:47:12 PM
German reporting in.
What exactly do you mean by squashing of historical unpleasantries?


There's a lot of stuff forbidden such as:
Use of Nazi Symbols.
Use of Nazi-greeting.
Denying the Holocaust.
And several other things.

However noone's going to bat an eye if there is a Nazi-Symbol somewhere in a picture of WW2 in a school-book, they just won't print the symbol right on a cover of a book about WW2.
If you discuss the Third Reich its also okayish to say they had to greet each other with the phrase "Heil Hitler" as long as you are clearly just discussing objectively not shouting it out or making the corresponding gesture.

This runs counter to my experience...I'll see if I can dig up the reference. 
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 25, 2016, 11:54:12 PM
It sounds about right to me - the decent people don't like to think about it.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 26, 2016, 12:01:12 AM
Yeah, I had the same situation come up, though, where a teacher was disciplined for having some Nazi symbols in class based off a complaint from German exchange students. 

Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Valka on May 26, 2016, 02:45:07 AM
I realize that most people (referring to the Nazis) don't like to talk about it, but what about the attitude that "this happened a long time ago, they (the Jews) should just get over it"?

The text in quotes in the above paragraph are a paraphrase of something a German woman posted on TrekBBS. She promptly got told off by numerous posters, including some of the moderators. I find that an appalling thing to say... it's like telling a 70-year-old First Nations person in Canada that "the residential school you went to closed a long time ago, just get over it."

The generations that went through these things, plus the first generation after (whose lives were affected by how their parents dealt with their issues) are not going to "just get over it."

That's not to say that some haven't dealt with their situation and become productive citizens. But some others will never be able to "just get over it."

Public Holocaust denial is illegal in Canada, and there have been consequences for some people who get confused and think that we have freedom of speech here in the American sense.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Lorizael on May 26, 2016, 04:48:58 AM
So, I'm culturally Jewish but don't believe at all in the Jewish god (or any god or supernatural anything). I have always identified more strongly with the Jewish aspects of my heritage than the other parts, and the joking reason I give for this is that Hitler wouldn't have bothered to draw the distinction.

Now, I do celebrate Jewish holidays. And I'm a big fan of Passover Seder, where the Haggadah we use strongly emphasizes that the reason Jews are required to remember the Passover is to instill an opposition to oppression regardless of the form it takes or who the victim is (Jewish or otherwise). That is, Jews are supposed to use their own tragic history as a reminder not to allow similar tragedies to befall other peoples.

From that standpoint, I'm okay with the idea that we Jews should "get over" the Holocaust. Twelve million people were murdered, and that's terrible, but they're not coming back. Ideally, Jews should not look at the Holocaust as a reason to be angry, or to dwell on the past, or to get caught up in hatred, but as a reminder that humans can do terrible things and we must remain vigilant so as to ensure that similar terrible acts never happen again.

Remembering the Holocaust isn't about recalling that time the Germans did something terrible to the Jews, but about that time humans did something terrible to themselves. Which is to say, I don't think we should concern ourselves all that much with Holocaust denial specifically or people aping Nazi symbols. We should concern ourselves with oppression and hatred and bigotry in all the forms they take.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Valka on May 26, 2016, 05:04:25 AM
From that standpoint, I'm okay with the idea that we Jews should "get over" the Holocaust. Twelve million people were murdered, and that's terrible, but they're not coming back. Ideally, Jews should not look at the Holocaust as a reason to be angry, or to dwell on the past, or to get caught up in hatred, but as a reminder that humans can do terrible things and we must remain vigilant so as to ensure that similar terrible acts never happen again.

Remembering the Holocaust isn't about recalling that time the Germans did something terrible to the Jews, but about that time humans did something terrible to themselves. Which is to say, I don't think we should concern ourselves all that much with Holocaust denial specifically or people aping Nazi symbols. We should concern ourselves with oppression and hatred and bigotry in all the forms they take.

And this is exactly the reason why people got so angry with the person on TrekBBS. Her attitude was not only that they should "just get over it", but that everyone should stop talking about it - literally stop saying it had ever happened. She wasn't denying that it happened - but she was saying that it wouldn't bother her if her society underwent a kind of cultural amnesia about the whole thing.

That's sweeping the past under the rug and never acknowledging it again, and that's no way to teach people to be aware of the atrocities that humans can inflict on each other.

Canada has some shameful things in our past, and I do get that the current generation doesn't want to be blamed for the past - after all, I'm not one of the people responsible for the residential schools, and I refuse to accept blame or bigotry because of them. But I do think it's critical that we never allow such things to happen again.

Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 26, 2016, 01:28:17 PM
Okay, this is all absolutely true.

But on the Germans not wanting to think about/talk about, well, I have a bad reputation worldwide for being born who I am where I was born - some unfortunateness that I strongly deplore went on in this quadrant many generations ago and some unpleasant settling out that I also deplore was going on around the time I was born - and we are cast as The Bad People forever.

I want none of it.

My first time on the road doing a renfair out of state, in Arizona, I got pulled into almost as many conversation about the American Civil War as the rest of my 32 years at the time.  I consider that very rude, frankly.  I didn't do it, I wasn't there, I've worked on my own heart - and do not ANYONE try to cast me as one of guilty absent better evidence than my complexion and my native speaking dialect.

I want none of it.  Not to think about the ugly history, not to talk about it.  It is a stick to beat me unfairly with.  It is textbook prejudice, prejudgments because I happen to have been born a pale southeasterner.  I may not wear my identity as a proud, rather militantly so, North Carolinian, doing so being a huge "Kick Me" sign.  Screw the world.

-See also several incredibly TL;DR rants -but highly relevant- in Rusty's Military/Naval History thread, starting, ISTR, near the top of page 17.
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Eadee on May 27, 2016, 10:14:15 PM
I for my part do not demand that anyone "gets over" something. People who experienced horrible things can't easily forget and forgive and I won't force anyone to.
However I find it only fair if they don't expand their hate or prejudice to the new generations that didn't take part in whatever has been done to them.

I am a good person, I did not kill anybody, I didn't torture anybody (except for BU with my puns), I help people in need, I'm a nice person in general and I just don't like to be the bad guy because of what two generations earlier happened.

On the other side one profits self the most, if he overcomes his own hatred and finally finds peace with himself and the world. So I really recommend everyone trying to get over things for their own mental well being.

Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 27, 2016, 11:02:33 PM
..That stuff's true about the east Germans, mind you, but my man Eadee's all with the lederhosen and the beer and the oom-pa-pah music.  He never marches in formation or salutes - Bavaria!  Woooo!
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Valka on May 28, 2016, 02:05:41 AM
Quote
oom-pa-pah music

Now I've got that song from the "Oliver!" musical running through my head...
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 28, 2016, 02:15:27 AM
ISTR some of that action in Chitty, Chitty Bang-Bang, too...
Title: Re: Is it ever appropriate to use a racial slur?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 28, 2016, 02:50:20 AM
Maybe, maybe not worth reading my two Tl;DR rants -w/ many run-ons and long paragraphs making it difficult to read- about prejudice against me due to the accident of my birth:
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8552.msg72890#msg72890 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8552.msg72890#msg72890) -and there's a little more afterwards...


But Eadee's eventual response:
I'd love to discuss this with a German - I intuit with my enormous buncle powers that a German would get it for some mysterious reason.

Well, being a German, I indeed do feel with you on this.

I don't want to Hijack this topic so I'll try to keep it short.

In Germany we almost have no patriotism at all. Everytime you say "I'm proud to be a German" outside of a debate around Soccer, you're instantly a nazi. And I don't mean that foreign people call us nazis if we show patriotism. We do this ourselves. The German people doesn't seem to be able to let go and move on. Ok, just yesterday they found and defused another unexploded aircraft bomb from WW2 only 2.15 kilometers from my home. If this happens several times a year in your city, its hard to not think about that war.

My Grandfather was very young during WW2. He had to join the army of Germany and got into captivity pretty quickly. So his whole Life was heavily influenced by this war. I know he probably fought in this war at some point, and he might have killed some of the good guys in this time.
So, the connection I have to WW2 is pretty close, my grandfather still lives and he told me a lot of stories when I was young. Since almost everything he experienced in his youth was connected to WW2 there were a lot of stories that revolved around this war. But I was a child and he didn't tell me any stories about actual gunfights or any other combat situation. Instead they were about how they managed their life in the army, how they tricked their officers if they didn't want to polish the officers boots and stuff like that. So all I know about him is only these things and what he did after the war. He is an awesome grandfather since he teached me a lot of skills and encouraged my curiosity about everything. He never tried to influence me into thinking jews or other ethnic groups were less worthy or that Nazi-Germany wasn't bad at all.

I have no Idea if I can be proud of what he did in WW2. But I know I can be proud of him being a good person afterwards. However, even if I'm proud of him, I never managed to feel something similar for Germany as a whole. Even though we really DID well since the end of WW2 I just can't identify with this nation without my own mind telling me I'm going to become a nazi if I follow this road (what is ridiculous but thats the way we are teached to think).

Back to BU's post: I honestly must admit I do know about these preconceptions of the southern states because of this war. And I can imagine how it is difficult to show any sign of affiliation to what and who you are without being afraid of blamed by someone for crimes you never commited. And yes, if I'd travel to the southern states I'd too expect to see more racism and all that then in the northern ones since I'm only human and can't shrug these preconseptions off that easily. However I'd never talk bad about an individual person because of these preconceptions or even insult him. I know how senseless they are and every person gets its chance to prove 'em wrong and I'm quite happy if they're proven wrong often, this way I finally might get rid of them totally.

I had the luck to grow up in Bavaria since I was 3 years old. If you say you're proud of being a Bavarian noone calls you a nazi. And even though Germany surely has accomplished things I could be proud of too, I can only feel good about being a Bavarian (even though I wasn't born here). Bavaria might be best known for the beer, and cars but there's even something in WW2 you can be proud of as a Bavarian what suprised me very much when I learned about it (its a minor thing though):
In whole nazi-Germany you had to greet Hitler all the time and not doing so was punished. With one Exception. The Bavarians were very religious people and always used the greeting "Grüß Gott" wich means "greet God" and they refused to change this during the reign of Hitler. Finally it was allowed in whole Bavaria to say "Grüß Gott" instead of the usual nazi-greeting.

I really hope you too found something you can identify with and be proud of. If I had to guess Buster is someone you're proud of but I don't know you well enough to make any more educated guesses.

That wasn't short at all. I apologize.
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