Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: MercantileInterest on March 01, 2016, 08:06:40 PM

Title: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on March 01, 2016, 08:06:40 PM
The modifier which prohibits a factions from accumulating research for the first however many turns (found in the Believers) does not exist in the .txt file. Any idea how to edit it?
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Eadee on March 01, 2016, 08:13:30 PM
IIRC every Faction with an inherent research penalty doesn't accumulate research in the first 10 years.

But I don't know where to modify this number of years.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on March 01, 2016, 08:27:48 PM
its 5 turns of no research per level of -RESEARCH.  this can't be modded yet
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on March 01, 2016, 08:32:05 PM
Really? In the Smaniac mod, the Believers with -2 Research don't suffer this penalty at all. Meanwhile, the Free Drones with -3 Research instead accumulate no research for 5 turns. When I modify the files, this reverts to normal.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Dio on March 01, 2016, 08:53:08 PM
The code shows the expression to determine the number of turns a faction with negative RESEARCH as follows: (RESEARCH Score * 4) - RESEARCH score. The number of mission years elapsed must exceed the value that results from this expression. The following values occur with this expression:
-1 RESEARCH: (3 Mission Years without Research [No research before 2104])
-2 RESEARCH: (6 Mission Years without Research [[No research before 2107])
-3 RESEARCH: (9 Mission Years without Research [[No research before 2110])
-4 RESEARCH: (12 Mission Years without Research [[No research before 2113])
-5 RESEARCH: (15 Mission Years without Research [[No research before 2116])
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on March 02, 2016, 09:47:33 PM
Are you sure it's not + ?  I always saw it was 5 years per -RESEARCH.  Does Smaniac mod the default SE?  That might be changing it...if you get +2 RESEARCH from default SEs..
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Yitzi on March 08, 2016, 05:40:46 PM
The modifier which prohibits a factions from accumulating research for the first however many turns (found in the Believers) does not exist in the .txt file. Any idea how to edit it?

You'd have to find the code in the executable and edit it there.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on March 08, 2016, 08:04:23 PM
That's it exactly. One of the default Smaniac governments grants +2 research. After getting rid of that, the inability to accumulate points for 10 turns in addition to having a slower rate seems downright insulting. Am experimenting with giving the Believers an extra scout patrol and switching their default tech to Centauri Ecology so they can build formers if they start in a bad spot. The Free Drone industry bonus actually has an effect in the starting phase of the game, so not granting them anything extra.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on March 08, 2016, 11:24:59 PM
I mod such that you can make Formers and build road, mine, sensor, and solar without Centauri Ecology.  But the tech is needed to plant forest or farm.  It makes the -RESEARCH for X turns penalty a little less harsh, and the tech a little less mandatory to get right away.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on March 09, 2016, 08:15:11 PM
That would work pretty well too.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on March 10, 2016, 03:58:02 AM
I find it's good if you like to play with factions/SEs with negative economy.  As otherwise you can get stuck having 0 energy and never get any tech
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Yitzi on March 14, 2016, 02:09:07 PM
I mod such that you can make Formers and build road, mine, sensor, and solar without Centauri Ecology.  But the tech is needed to plant forest or farm.  It makes the -RESEARCH for X turns penalty a little less harsh, and the tech a little less mandatory to get right away.

I like this; one could also adjust it so that roads require Doctrine: Mobility, mines require Industrial Base, sensors require Information Networks, and solars require Applied Physics, to spread things out.  Of course, that wouldn't help out the Believers as much...I think what they really need is cheaper (but perhaps higher-support) colony pods (as between their inability to build much else at the start, their high SUPPORT, and the fact that they don't have to worry about far-from-HQ bases being stolen by probe teams, an expansionist early-game strategy seems the optimal for them).

Making colony pods cost only 20 minerals, but require both mineral and nutrient support (with free support from SUPPORT rating needing to cancel out each one separately) would be a big boost to the Believers...but that requires .exe modding too.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on March 15, 2016, 01:58:29 AM
I kind of like the terraforming ideas though I'd keep solars baseline.  Formers should be able to make something by default and there's still the -ECON problem (that if you go -3 ECON or below, the HQ makes 0 energy). 

Well the only way to really make Believers relatively better is to make +SUP and +PROBE more powerful.  Generally cheaper troops helps them.  I found flat unit+ability costs made SUP more powerful with the downside of a bit more troop spam.  Boosting up Fundamentalism (+2 morale, +2 growth, -5 research) helps them relatively since they get only -3 research net due to the bottom range. 2/2/1 on the base square also helps them some and makes the early game a little less dull (more troops).  Something like a sliding scale on SUP's free minerals on new base might help them early on.  Like +/- 5 minerals per SUP (so they'd get 20 minerals for new bases rather than 10).  Boosting up mines somehow I think would also help...the only M-heavy strategy early is forests..
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Dio on March 15, 2016, 05:19:49 PM
I kind of like the terraforming ideas though I'd keep solars baseline.  Formers should be able to make something by default and there's still the -ECON problem (that if you go -3 ECON or below, the HQ makes 0 energy). 

Well the only way to really make Believers relatively better is to make +SUP and +PROBE more powerful.  Generally cheaper troops helps them.  I found flat unit+ability costs made SUP more powerful with the downside of a bit more troop spam.  Boosting up Fundamentalism (+2 morale, +2 growth, -5 research) helps them relatively since they get only -3 research net due to the bottom range. 2/2/1 on the base square also helps them some and makes the early game a little less dull (more troops).  Something like a sliding scale on SUP's free minerals on new base might help them early on.  Like +/- 5 minerals per SUP (so they'd get 20 minerals for new bases rather than 10).  Boosting up mines somehow I think would also help...the only M-heavy strategy early is forests..
I continue to fiddle with the concept of giving the Believers +1 Growth since the spread of AI priorities for the faction gives them an inherent bonus to select models with this social effects. I play with 2/1/2 in the base square. This allows the bases for believers to provide better income (and potentially research).
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on March 15, 2016, 07:08:03 PM
I'd say that higher E per base actually hurts Believers relatively, since they have bad energy efficiency into labs.  +1 GROWTH or removing their -1 PLANET goes far to helping them out.  Their attack bonus becomes really powerful if you make defense/armor more viable.  They're a tricky faction to balance.  Terrible early game but if you get into the middle game in ok shape they are really strong.  I don't think any faction could stand up to them running Fund/Planned/Power (at least how I mod SEs) on equal tech.  Not even Spartans or Hive.

The other reason I think is that +PROBE is kind of lacking.  It's a bit better if you take out all the free probe morale boosts though.  Being even a level up on probes means you'll win probe vs probe battles, helping with tech steal a lot.  I had been playing with 2/2/2 base square but found that a bit too pro-ICS/PS.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 03, 2016, 09:45:29 PM
What about manipulating the tech cost? Does setting it to 120% have the same effect as -2 Research? It would look like this in the txt file: TECHCOST, 120,
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Yitzi on May 17, 2016, 09:16:25 PM
I'd say that higher E per base actually hurts Believers relatively, since they have bad energy efficiency into labs.  +1 GROWTH or removing their -1 PLANET goes far to helping them out.

What about making it so that the Fanatic gives a bigger boost to psi combat (as long as it's the opponent that's native) than regular combat instead of no boost at all?

Quote
The other reason I think is that +PROBE is kind of lacking.  It's a bit better if you take out all the free probe morale boosts though.  Being even a level up on probes means you'll win probe vs probe battles, helping with tech steal a lot.  I had been playing with 2/2/2 base square but found that a bit too pro-ICS/PS.

With a boost to psi combat (either by tweaking fanatic or removing the PLANET penalty), though, they'd be able to explore and expand much more easily, and the bigger/more spread out you are the more you can use resistance to mind control...
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 20, 2016, 05:30:16 AM
You wouldn't have to tweak Fanatic with exe modding. You could just give the Believers the Progenitor offensive bonus, provided you're using SMAX.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Yitzi on May 20, 2016, 04:26:56 PM
You wouldn't have to tweak Fanatic with exe modding. You could just give the Believers the Progenitor offensive bonus, provided you're using SMAX.

True...although if you want fanatic to be stronger against psi than against non-psi (which makes a lot of sense thematically) then you would.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 25, 2016, 04:15:17 PM
What do you think of adding +2 talent to Fundamentalist? It seems too weak otherwise. Traditionally, I've always played University, so I wouldn't know by experience.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Yitzi on May 25, 2016, 09:05:40 PM
What do you think of adding +2 talent to Fundamentalist? It seems too weak otherwise. Traditionally, I've always played University, so I wouldn't know by experience.

Could work, but doesn't really fit with the apparent intended use for it.  I think a better fix for Fundamentalist might simply be making morale more important for combat.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on May 30, 2016, 08:48:41 AM
Morale giving ~20-25% power per rank might do that.  Point for point it's not as strong as say INDUSTRY even if you go full military.  +5 INDUSTRY is double troops for example (not counting SUPPORT, so this isn't entirely accurate).  Whereas +4 MORALE is only +50% unit power and +1 move.  More combat power per rank for probes would go a long way to making PROBE SE more valuable as well.

The X turns of no research...my opinion on it is that it should be removed.  It's too steep of an early game penalty in most cases.  IMO the simplest way to mod around this would be to give Believers, Drones, etc another starting tech (Laser, perhaps).
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Yitzi on May 30, 2016, 04:06:18 PM
Morale giving ~20-25% power per rank might do that.  Point for point it's not as strong as say INDUSTRY even if you go full military.  +5 INDUSTRY is double troops for example (not counting SUPPORT, so this isn't entirely accurate).  Whereas +4 MORALE is only +50% unit power and +1 move.

Admittedly, +1 move is probably worth close to "double troops" by itself.

The other possibility is giving more complex bonuses, as a large MORALE bonus would make the High Morale and Soporific Gas Pods abilities too strong.  The current thing I'm thinking of is actually 5 parts to the effect of MORALE:
1. A simple bonus between 10% and 12.5% per rank.  So pretty close to what's there now, maybe even a bit weaker.
2. A huge bonus to probe team and psi combat, probably somewhere between 50% and 100% bonus per rank.
3. An extra morale-based bonus when a faster unit attacks a slower one, with a bonus that grows much faster than rank.  (I'm thinking of having it depend on 3Xattacker morale-2Xdefender morale, with the ECM ability giving +5 to the defender's total instead of its current effect; when that is 1, it would be only a ~2% total bonus, but at the max of 18 for elite attacking very green it would be around 650X strength (more precisely, a bit over 25X damage dealt, and a bit under 1/25 as much damage taken).  The difference between "no effect" and "2X strength to the attacker" would be around 2 ranks of attacker morale, or 3 of defender morale.)
4. When attacking a stack, instead of the better unit always defending, the choice of defender would be highly dependent on morale; the attacker would have a morale-only pseudo-combat (similar to psi combat) against each unit in the stack, and the number of victories would affect how many good defenders it could ignore to try to hit a juicier/more vulnerable target.
5. The same movement bonus that exists now.

That way, morale becomes more powerful than it is now, but in a way that you have to build your military strategy around.
  More combat power per rank for probes would go a long way to making PROBE SE more valuable as well.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on May 30, 2016, 05:02:42 PM
Well I think the mobile in open is sufficient for fast unit having their niche advantage.  Only maybe it shouldn't apply for mobile vs mobile (I think it does).  I wouldn't say that attacking needs to be strengthened by #3-4, if anything I mod defense a bit more cost effective.  Because what happens is armor and all armor abilities like ECM just end up ignored.  Fast armorless units was a bad design, I'll stand by that opinion.

Now thinking on it, probably more the issue with INDUSTRY is that it's a discount rate rather than interest rate.  MORALE SE is mostly linear in other words and INDUSTRY is not.  So for example +5 INDUSTRY is -50% production costs but +100% minerals equivalent.  If +5 INDUSTRY were say +50% minerals production instead, then it'd be more on par with MORALE SE without changing the combat %s.  Maybe all the SEs shouldn't have to be equivalent I mean you can mod around the amounts easy enough.

Edit: I suppose it's not that easy to fix, since -3 INDUSTRY would also become 70% minerals production.  Right now it's 1/1.3 = 77% minerals production.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on June 01, 2016, 02:56:31 AM
Additional minerals result in additional pollution. Reduced mineral costs do not.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Nexii on June 02, 2016, 03:48:14 AM
Yea, another reason not to tweak INDUSTRY.  Though in a way you can argue that +INDUSTRY reduces relative ecodamage as you can make more units/formers to fight/clean up the effects.  For example on +5 INDUSTRY I can make double the scouts with the same ecodamage as someone on 0 INDUSTRY.

It is a bit flawed in another way, when changing INDUSTRY it keeps minerals done rather than % completed.  So you can raise INDUSTRY for a turn to hurry complete SPs or big facilities in progress.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on June 04, 2016, 09:12:22 PM
The X turns of no research...my opinion on it is that it should be removed. It's too steep of an early game penalty in most cases.  IMO the simplest way to mod around this would be to give Believers, Drones, etc another starting tech (Laser, perhaps).

As a moddable factor, this could be quite useful. Would probably use it on the Consciousness to distinguish them from the University. Makes better background too. They'd be spending the first couple years stapling hard drives onto everyone's brains instead of conducting research.

In the Binary Dawn mod, the Gaians gain free tree farms in every base. (Someday, .exe modding may allow +1 nutrient for their forests, which would be better, but this works alright.) Right now, they start with a random tech to delay them throwing down forests immediately. A ten turn research penalty would help too.

Would take this off the Believers and Drones. They have permanent research penalties.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: MercantileInterest on June 05, 2016, 01:55:54 AM
And, of course, applying this negative to sea factions could have huge balance implications, although it would be even better to start them later, like aliens or Planet Cult.
Title: Re: No research for X turns
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 05, 2016, 04:54:58 AM
Newb with instaban. ;nod
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