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Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 01:31:28 PM

Title: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 01:31:28 PM
My son contends Jafar is the greatest.

I'm too lazy to look them all up to make a poll proper. 
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: gwillybj on February 22, 2016, 01:37:33 PM
Cruella DeVille
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 01:46:14 PM
Cruella DeVille


I can't get on board with this at all.  She's always at the top of 'lists' you see, but the whole 'fur is murder' theme really doesn't move me, and so it boils down to she stole some puppies.  Meh.  Petty thief. 

Her best thing is inspiring this:
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCG7CdoYAUg#)
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Elok on February 22, 2016, 01:51:03 PM
Ariel.  Or is she an antihero?  Either way, it's an interesting twist that she's allowed to win in the end.
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 02:23:54 PM
I want to hear your thesis on how Ariel is villainous. 

Ursula would be up there in my book.  Not only does she steal souls, and do it LEGALLY, she actually achieves her goals, though poor management of her power leads to a swift end to her reign. 
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Elok on February 22, 2016, 03:35:40 PM
Easy: she's utterly irresponsible and selfish.  She chases after a man she doesn't know--she's never even had a conversation with him, and it should be noted, as her father does, that HE EATS HER FRIENDS--at the cost of abandoning all her friends and family who love her, eventually literally signing a pact with the powers of darkness to do it.  She ruins absolutely everything, and is rewarded for doing so.  Ursula is the devil.  Ariel is Faust.  I guess the story could be seen as an allegory for Christian redemption, insofar as she really deserves to be turned into sea-foam, but her much worthier Father sacrifices all to save her?
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 06:05:21 PM
To be fair, the source material is equally messed up.  The mermaid sacrifices practical immortality, her tongue, walking/dancing constantly feels like she's standing on daggers, plus all friends and life before she leaves the sea for only a chance at a soul and thus a heavenly afterlife, only to fail miserably and be turned into seafoam/daughter of air which is potentially more horrible than anything else when you get right down to it. 


Being Naïve, Irresponsible, and Selfish does not = villain to me. 

Father making things worse by signing over everything to Ursula is on him. 
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 22, 2016, 06:26:56 PM
Easy: she's utterly irresponsible and selfish.  She chases after a man she doesn't know--she's never even had a conversation with him, and it should be noted, as her father does, that HE EATS HER FRIENDS--at the cost of abandoning all her friends and family who love her, eventually literally signing a pact with the powers of darkness to do it.  She ruins absolutely everything, and is rewarded for doing so.  Ursula is the devil.  Ariel is Faust.  I guess the story could be seen as an allegory for Christian redemption, insofar as she really deserves to be turned into sea-foam, but her much worthier Father sacrifices all to save her?

Well, now that you put it that way ( rather nicely, I might add )it sounds like something straight out of C.S. Lewis. Dad is the Christ figure.

I wasn't a Mermaid fan, I liked the Steadfast Tin Soldier. ( I wonder why they haven't done that one?) I just tended to think of Ariel as a terrible role model, and once it went Disney I tended to think of it as some of their best singing and songwriting ever, and ignore the story.


I've seen segments, but I don't think I ever saw the animated Sleeping Beauty from start to finish. For me, Malificent is the Disney Arch Villain in that she has a sort of dark evil presence like Darth Vader. She wanted to eat Aurora's heart, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 22, 2016, 07:24:10 PM
You know, Guinevere's character arch in Camelot is like that; at the beginning, she naively sings of longing for all that princess stuff, being rescued and having men fight over her -I look at it as she's 16 or so and doesn't know any better- and is punished by getting exactly what she asked for.

The Simple Joys of Maidenhood by Julie Andrews (Camelot) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T81CQfOcX5E#)

Is she a villain, then, or just a fool?
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Eadee on February 22, 2016, 07:27:59 PM
Does Darth Vader qualify these days? :o
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 22, 2016, 08:00:06 PM
Does Darth Vader qualify these days? :o

I don't know, I still haven't seen the new one,but his 1977 entrance is among the best moments  in movie history. You just knew he was bad to the bone.
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 08:11:08 PM
Easy: she's utterly irresponsible and selfish.  She chases after a man she doesn't know--she's never even had a conversation with him, and it should be noted, as her father does, that HE EATS HER FRIENDS--at the cost of abandoning all her friends and family who love her, eventually literally signing a pact with the powers of darkness to do it.  She ruins absolutely everything, and is rewarded for doing so.  Ursula is the devil.  Ariel is Faust.  I guess the story could be seen as an allegory for Christian redemption, insofar as she really deserves to be turned into sea-foam, but her much worthier Father sacrifices all to save her?

Well, now that you put it that way ( rather nicely, I might add )it sounds like something straight out of C.S. Lewis. Dad is the Christ figure.

I wasn't a Mermaid fan, I liked the Steadfast Tin Soldier. ( I wonder why they haven't done that one?) I just tended to think of Ariel as a terrible role model, and once it went Disney I tended to think of it as some of their best singing and songwriting ever, and ignore the story.


I've seen segments, but I don't think I ever saw the animated Sleeping Beauty from start to finish. For me, Malificent is the Disney Arch Villain in that she has a sort of dark evil presence like Darth Vader. She wanted to eat Aurora's heart, if I recall correctly.

I don't think I saw Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, or Snow White prior all the way through prior to Talia. 

Think you're mixing up Maleficent with Queen whatshername from Snow White.  They look nearly identical (crown vs horns, but otherwise...), so it's an understandable mistake, but the latter wanted to eat snow white's heart. 

Maleficent's motives are never really revealed in the Disney cartoon, other than she was offended by the parents for not inviting her to the christening.  The subsequent Maleficent really neuters her 'evilness'. 
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 08:12:34 PM
You know, Guinevere's character arch in Camelot is like that; at the beginning, she naively sings of longing for all that princess stuff, being rescued and having men fight over her -I look at it as she's 16 or so and doesn't know any better- and is punished by getting exactly what she asked for.

I'm admittedly a sucker for the careful what you wish for stories.  Loved that particular aspect of Camelot. 
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 22, 2016, 08:21:36 PM
I rather loathe the T.H. White it was based on, and don't like the play itself at all - but the songs are awesomely good, and on a meta-level the thematic spine of dreams fulfilled (Guen) or thwarted (Lance) or partly-thwarted (Arthur) really works; just not so much in execution while nobody's singing.
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 08:32:40 PM
What's your beef with The Once and Future King?  (the musical takes a fair few liberties, mind you.)
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 22, 2016, 08:37:32 PM
What's your beef with The Once and Future King?  (the musical takes a fair few liberties, mind you.)
I'm surprised you, of all people, would need to ask; it's not very respectful to the material.  TOAFK isn't as bad as the earlier books, which aren't nearly as bad as Twain - but yuck.  I already knew the Middle Ages were a filthy ignorant time, and that's not what I was looking for in my King Arthur, as if that's even the right setting.  It crowds out the good stuff, y'know.
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 08:46:31 PM
Guess it depends on what you consider "the material". 

The Once and Future King pretty much set the bar for all modern retellings of the story, and at the time was considered a rather definitive work. 

Mallory's work is painful to read, if more interesting from a plot perspective.  Everything else prior is very disjointed. 

On an aside, currently looking for Arthur stories based off Preiddeu Annwfn.  If anyone knows of any...
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 22, 2016, 09:09:40 PM
Mallory isn't any harder to wade through than the Bible - I was reading both by the age of 12.  You just gotta have a pretty good vocabulary and patience with the florid grammar.
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 22, 2016, 10:17:26 PM
Le Morte D'Arthur is VERY dependent on which version you read.  I probably need a new one.  At the time of purchasing (lord, 30 years ago), my edition was the most complete available, (most missing various sections) but suffered from a complete lack of modernization, so was completely in middle english spelling and grammar and is a slog to get through as a result.  Newer versions are nice. 
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 22, 2016, 10:25:10 PM
Well yeah; I read the Howard Pyle translation, come to think of it.
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 29, 2016, 04:55:10 AM

I don't think I saw Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, or Snow White prior all the way through prior to Talia. 

Think you're mixing up Maleficent with Queen whatshername from Snow White.  They look nearly identical (crown vs horns, but otherwise...), so it's an understandable mistake, but the latter wanted to eat snow white's heart. 

Maleficent's motives are never really revealed in the Disney cartoon, other than she was offended by the parents for not inviting her to the christening.  The subsequent Maleficent really neuters her 'evilness'.


I revisited the issue.

Yes, you are correct and I was confused. The Evil Queen was the would be heart eater. Not Malificent.

I read "The Hunchback of Notre Dame " as a kid. I don't remember it well, and I didn't see the Disney movie, but the descriptions of the movie sound pretty dark, worse than my impression of the book.

This Frollo character committed acts of evil in the guise of God's will, including murdering Quassimodo's mom on the steps of the cathedral while she's screaming for sanctuary, attempting to throw the baby down a well, which isn't merely murderous, but criminally irresponsible with regard to the water supply. Then there is the matter of burning the city and committing gypsy genocide in the pursuit of jailbait Esmeralda. Pretty darn evil.

But I overlooked Chernabog the demon of Fantasia. Even moreso than Malificent you know he's evil at first sight. Raising the dead to dance for him so that he can crush them or cast them into hell or eat them seems pretty evil.

Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 29, 2016, 02:34:37 PM

I read "The Hunchback of Notre Dame " as a kid. I don't remember it well, and I didn't see the Disney movie, but the descriptions of the movie sound pretty dark, worse than my impression of the book.

This Frollo character committed acts of evil in the guise of God's will, including murdering Quassimodo's mom on the steps of the cathedral while she's screaming for sanctuary, attempting to throw the baby down a well, which isn't merely murderous, but criminally irresponsible with regard to the water supply. Then there is the matter of burning the city and committing gypsy genocide in the pursuit of jailbait Esmeralda. Pretty darn evil.


Hunchback is worth a view.  Definitely one of the darkest Disney movies, and I think the music is underrated. 

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi0kFstIFkY#)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NoDEu7kpg#)


I think it's presently on Netflix. 

Quote
But I overlooked Chernabog the demon of Fantasia. Even moreso than Malificent you know he's evil at first sight. Raising the dead to dance for him so that he can crush them or cast them into hell or eat them seems pretty evil.

I've never watched Fantasia...
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 29, 2016, 10:47:51 PM
Fantasia is a personal favorite.
It was music video before The Monkees. It suddenly occurs to me that I haven't seen it enough times in my life. Opens with Toccata and Fugue in D minor and closes with Ave Maria.

Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 29, 2016, 10:51:07 PM
Be warned though - when I finally saw it after a lifetime of hearing how ground-breaking and brilliant it was, there's dancing cartoony hippos in tutus...
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on February 29, 2016, 11:32:25 PM
Be warned though - when I finally saw it after a lifetime of hearing how ground-breaking and brilliant it was, there's dancing cartoony hippos in tutus...

yeah...the bits I've seen are cringeworthy.

I made a pepper's ghost organist that played toccata and fugue years back, nothing else can compete, sorry. 
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 29, 2016, 11:40:27 PM
The Night on Bald Mountain sequence might be worth the price of admission for you...
Title: Re: Manual Poll: Best Disney Villain
Post by: Unorthodox on April 13, 2016, 04:27:29 AM
Be warned though - when I finally saw it after a lifetime of hearing how ground-breaking and brilliant it was, there's dancing cartoony hippos in tutus...

yeah...the bits I've seen are cringeworthy.

I made a pepper's ghost organist that played toccata and fugue years back, nothing else can compete, sorry. 

Halfway through and thus far the only redeeming quality is a TRex making a kill, rather brutally depicted considering the source/time period. 

That's enough for today.  The pompous narrator really grates on me between segments. 
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