Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Bug/Patch Discussion => Topic started by: Yitzi on May 15, 2014, 06:36:36 PM

Title: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Yitzi on May 15, 2014, 06:36:36 PM

There are a number of irregularities with psi artillery combat (unless the attacker is a spore launcher, which used to be that way but was then fixed), and the question is whether they are bugs:
-Normally, psi combat ignores defensive facilities.  With artillery, they don't.
-Normally, psi combat will make a psi strength for the attacker and defender according to fixed values (by default, 3:2 for land defenders, 1:1 for air or sea), and this will be used for the total strength; with artillery the weapon and armor strength show the psi values, but the actual strength calculation uses the normal weapon and armor values (treating the psi unit as a minimum of 1).  (That's fairly clearly a bug; the question is whether the bug is that it should work like psi normally does.)
-Normally, psi combat ignores the fungus defensive bonus.  With artillery, it doesn't.
-Normally, fungal towers get a defensive bonus; with artillery, they don't (other than that from fungus).

So: Are these bugs, and psi artillery combat should work like normal psi combat plus the special rules of artillery combat, or are they not bugs?

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Geo on May 15, 2014, 06:45:16 PM

I'd say keep the first and third as it is now (defensive facilities have an effect, and fungus gives a defense bonus when bombarded), the others may change.

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Yitzi on May 15, 2014, 07:05:03 PM

Quote from: Geo on May 15, 2014, 06:45:16 PM

I'd say keep the first and third as it is now (defensive facilities have an effect, and fungus gives a defense bonus when bombarded), the others may change.

Even though those are usually not true for psi?

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Geo on May 15, 2014, 08:05:07 PM

Yeah. The main difference with normal psi combat in my opinion is that it is bombardment, not relly a physical up-close presence.
Distance from the emitter should make the psi-fear less effective, and that could be implemented by keeping 'natural' defense up.

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Nexii on May 15, 2014, 08:16:57 PM

#1 seems like a bug but the better question is should psi ignore all defensive facilities?  and what about chassis/terrain modifiers which all seem to be ignored?  I noted that unit abilities other than just empath/trance get applied (such as wave psi, or AAA vs psi air.  seems kind of inconsistent.  there's many 'types' of psi combat, i.e. either the attacker or defender (or both) are psi, implies psi combat.
#2 is definitely a bug.
#3 an oddity I noted is that fungus gives 100% defensive against artillery rather than 50% against conventional weapons (artillery or non).  so not only does the fungus defense apply but it's actually even stronger for the defender.
#4 seems like a bug

another thing I noted, since I misinterpreted psi artillery combat as meaning psi artillery units, which are flagged out by default.  if you enable it, psi artillery units fight the same as psi units do (i.e. created PSI units cannot bombard, only spore launchers can)

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Nexii on May 15, 2014, 08:23:53 PM

Quote from: Geo on May 15, 2014, 08:05:07 PM

Yeah. The main difference with normal psi combat in my opinion is that it is bombardment, not relly a physical up-close presence.
Distance from the emitter should make the psi-fear less effective, and that could be implemented by keeping 'natural' defense up.

That might be true for psi attacker, I believe Yitzi means conventional artillery attacking a psi defender.  Do city walls help much in practice against artillery fire?  My guess would be not so much, since artillery fires over top of things anyways.  I think I lean more to making it so artillery isn't reduced by perimeter defenses.  But to play devil's advocate...perimeter defenses are already rather useless as is (since they don't help vs psi)

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Geo on May 15, 2014, 08:29:54 PM

Quote from: Nexii on May 15, 2014, 08:23:53 PM

That might be true for psi attacker, I believe Yitzi means conventional artillery attacking a psi defender.  Do city walls help much in practice against artillery fire?  My guess would be not so much, since artillery fires over top of things anyways.  I think I lean more to making it so artillery isn't reduced by perimeter defenses.  But to play devil's advocate...perimeter defenses are already rather useless as is (since they don't help vs psi)

I consider a sort of bunker/shelter system to be an integral part of any base defensive perimeter, and that should be secured from artillery effects.

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Nexii on May 15, 2014, 09:06:20 PM

Fair argument, and I feel for game balance reasons Perimeter Defenses should probably apply to both PSI and artillery.  Only thing then is you might have to increase the PSI A:D ratio to around 2:1, which has other implications.

To add to artillery vs psi defender (or psi tower), I would say perhaps make it so psi defenders are immune to bombardment.  they have sort of a psi shielding, thematic to how troops can't use conventional weaponry to begin with

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Yitzi on May 15, 2014, 09:31:27 PM

Quote from: Nexii on May 15, 2014, 08:16:57 PM

#3 an oddity I noted is that fungus gives 100% defensive against artillery rather than 50% against conventional weapons (artillery or non).  so not only does the fungus defense apply but it's actually even stronger for the defender.

Actually, that's a function of native life, not psi; if you give a conventional unit psi defense it only gets 50%, and I suspect that the Pholus Mutagen will increase anything to 100% against artillery or conventional.

Quote

another thing I noted, since I misinterpreted psi artillery combat as meaning psi artillery units, which are flagged out by default.  if you enable it, psi artillery units fight the same as psi units do (i.e. created PSI units cannot bombard, only spore launchers can)

I noticed that too, but it's a separate issue.

Quote from: Nexii on May 15, 2014, 09:06:20 PM

Fair argument, and I feel for game balance reasons Perimeter Defenses should probably apply to both PSI and artillery.  Only thing then is you might have to increase the PSI A:D ratio to around 2:1, which has other implications.

I think that's a possible change, but that's a balance change rather than a bugfix and so would wait.

Quote

To add to artillery vs psi defender (or psi tower), I would say perhaps make it so psi defenders are immune to bombardment.  they have sort of a psi shielding, thematic to how troops can't use conventional weaponry to begin with

But troops could still probably use a secondary bombardment (similar to the use of flame guns in closer quarters)...of course, that would make their weapon irrelevant, so you'd end up with it working similarly to normal psi combat.

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Nexii on May 16, 2014, 12:57:15 AM

Yea.  I suppose nowhere is it stated that conventional weaponry isn't actually used vs native life (i.e. that only melee weapons such as flame guns are used).  So with that in mind native life and psi units should be able to be bombarded: otherwise, spore launchers would not fight back and forth against conventional artillery and it would be auto victory for the spore launcher.  I want to say that using the combat values as they are makes more thematic sense, as the bombarding artillery is not using PSI in a one-way fight.  But I can also see how it is rather imbalancing - being able to use artillery to reduce any size native stack down to 1 hp.  You could argue that artillery should be a strong counter to PSI - but maybe not completely crush it this way.  PSI:PSI (3:2 by default) would be acceptable I guess but really does make less sense, at least to me.

There are some notes in flavor.txt about PSI attack power being diminished by distance (and PSI defense proportional to distance).  Although it seems in practice this wasn't implemented, PSI artillery (spore) still hits as hard as conventional artillery.  Again probably not a big thing, but to agree with what Geo stated...

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 16, 2014, 01:29:45 AM

Hmmm.  Mindworms have to be adjacent to launch a psi attack.  Spore launchers presumably launch explosive spore pods, which they can do from a touching square, exactly as can conventional artillery, but also from a distance, again same as conventional, but only engage in unambiguous psi combat when attacked by an adjacent mind worm or a psi-weapon unit.  QED, I think spore launchers launch a physical attack...

Am I even on topic?

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Yitzi on May 16, 2014, 01:32:53 AM

Quote from: BUncle on May 16, 2014, 01:29:45 AM

Hmmm.  Mindworms have to be adjacent to launch a psi attack.  Spore launchers presumably launch explosive spore pods, which they can do from a touching square, exactly as can conventional artillery, but also from a distance, again same as conventional, but only engage in unambiguous psi combat when attacked by an adjacent mind worm or a psi-weapon unit.  QED, I think spore launchers launch a physical attack...

Am I even on topic?

Not really, but it wouldn't be the first thread to go off-topic in a natural manner.

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 16, 2014, 01:37:32 AM

You get to ask me to cut it out in your folder, you know.  Actually, anyone does anywhere.  There's no one to moderate me, mostly, and I have to be cool about that or be a jerk.

No particular opinion about whether bugs, I'm afraid.

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Nexii on May 16, 2014, 05:03:47 AM

Quote from: BUncle on May 16, 2014, 01:29:45 AM

Hmmm.  Mindworms have to be adjacent to launch a psi attack.  Spore launchers presumably launch explosive spore pods, which they can do from a touching square, exactly as can conventional artillery, but also from a distance, again same as conventional, but only engage in unambiguous psi combat when attacked by an adjacent mind worm or a psi-weapon unit.  QED, I think spore launchers launch a physical attack...

Am I even on topic?

Spore launchers are described as using an explosive spore attack in the game which would seem to imply physical.  But they use psi value when bombarding, not just on defense.  Most likely to keep them dangerous all game.   

Also Yitzi I noted you are right on conventional psi defense getting 50% defense in fungus from conventional artillery bombard, and 100% with Pholus.  One interesting thing is PSI artillery (currently just spore launcher) never gets a bonus bombarding into fungus.  Should it, since Mind Worms do?

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Yitzi on May 16, 2014, 05:11:49 AM

Quote from: Nexii on May 16, 2014, 05:03:47 AM

Also Yitzi I noted you are right on conventional psi defense getting 50% defense in fungus from conventional artillery bombard, and 100% with Pholus.

And I suspect non-psi defense also gets 100% with the Pholus Mutagen, as do any predesigned units with psi attack and no psi defense (the game defines native life as "predesigned unit with psi attack")

Quote

One interesting thing is PSI artillery (currently just spore launcher) never gets a bonus bombarding into fungus.  Should it, since Mind Worms do?

No, since non-psi artillery with the Pholus Mutagen also doesn't.

Title: Re: Psi artillery combat: Are these bugs?
Post by: Yitzi on May 19, 2014, 02:06:27 AM

Having looked at the code, I have to revise my position and conclude that this is not a bug; it's just too clearly intended in the code.  It is, however, really bad design, and I intend to provide an optional change (which will also affect missiles, which apparently have the same issue) in 3.0.0, as it makes native life too easy to deal with.