Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Impaler on May 12, 2014, 02:37:13 AM

Title: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Impaler on May 12, 2014, 02:37:13 AM

Little exercise here for us to flex the ideological mental muscles.  Your mission is to create a 4th UNIQUE choices in each category (Government, Economy, Values, Future).  Describe how each one is different from the original 3 in it's catagory, what bonuses/penalties it might have and perhaps what Factions like/dislike it, if it has a history on Earth tell us about it. 

If you can only think of options for some categories go ahead and list just those.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: JarlWolf on May 12, 2014, 09:43:08 AM

For Government;

Oligarchy/Plutocracy/Anocracy or for simple, oligarchy.

Rule of the few, determined by power, wealth or merit; and is different from police state wherein those individuals have more liberty to oppress others. This could either be a warlord state (such as how the Viking Jarl's were and other barbarians), an oligarchy like the Venetians/Ancient Greeks, or how corporate interests today works in a sense.

-1 Morale because of divided loyalties, -1 Probe for lack of overall faction security due to internal disputes, +1 Economy for the fact the various rulers bring their own capital and wealth, promoting commerce or other means of generating wealth, and 1+ talent for the fact oligarchs will hire/attract the best to their organizations/bands and competitive society where leaders have to be able to retain their position, meaning merit, money or power is the means to rule.

In summary; -2 Morale, -1 Probe, 1+ Economy 1+ Talent

For economy, Mixed economy- essentially the usage of all 3 types of economic systems and balancing them, very similar to some Earth economies, if you want to ascribe it to something, Keynesian economics/regulatory capitalism with some state planning.

+1 Support, the mild regulation of solving booms and busts help smooth out economic problems, and provide a failsafe for the free market.
+1 Commerce, factions with this system typically can prevent economic meltdowns which warms up business climates.
-2 Economy, the systems of boom and bust can be a bit hard hitting, as can the bailouts on the economic debt.

As for values; Family/Moralist
This value is essentially the value of family friendly environments and community building, and is opposed to the pure advancement of knowledge as it can disregard healthy familial growth in society, and wealth can make people decadent and corrupt, while power/absolute loyalty to the state can replace loyalty to one's family. This society values building up a very moralistic society, in terms of real world comparisons, Neo-Conservatives can fall into this boat; as can a few other groups. Need not be necessarily right wing economically/politically; or even religious, just puts precedence on family values. Which could make sense in a colonial world.

3+ Growth (Very family oriented/growth oriented.)
1+ Planet (Focused on preserving the environment for future generations)
2- Efficiency (Family building may cause people to put their families in precedence then their jobs, causing inefficiencies)
1- Industry (Productivity of workers is lowered because their chief concern is providing for their family.)


Futures value could be Evolutionary/Symbiotic/Eugenicist

Essentially, a society geared on environmental adaption or turning humanity into a race so adaptable that it can thrive in any conditions. Not exactly like Gaians but instead focused on advancing humanity through biological means and tampering; sort of like Sigma's Chrysalid faction but perhaps less focused on the pure enhancement of humans and more just adapting people to different environments/making technology completely biological based. Worst case scenario of this, we all turn into Tyranids/Zerg with a consciousness.

4+ Planet- Extremely adaptive to any environment
3+ Support- The very biological functions of people enhanced on a physiological level means people are fairly self sufficient in terms of physical needs, meaning the majority of resources can be focused on other things.
3- Research- With people being so adaptable already in a physiological sense, a fair number of society may just not bother developing new technologies as they no longer need them, making technological progress go to a halt due to the superiority of their physiological survivability.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Geo on May 12, 2014, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: JarlWolf on May 12, 2014, 09:43:08 AM

For Government;

Oligarchy/Plutocracy/Anocracy or for simple, oligarchy.

Rule of the few, determined by power, wealth or merit; and is different from police state wherein those individuals have more liberty to oppress others. This could either be a warlord state (such as how the Viking Jarl's were and other barbarians), an oligarchy like the Venetians/Ancient Greeks, or how corporate interests today works in a sense.

-1 Morale because of divided loyalties, -1 Probe for lack of overall faction security due to internal disputes, +1 Economy for the fact the various rulers bring their own capital and wealth, promoting commerce or other means of generating wealth, and 1+ talent for the fact oligarchs will hire/attract the best to their organizations/bands and competitive society where leaders have to be able to retain their position, meaning merit, money or power is the means to rule.

In summary; -2 Morale, -1 Probe, 1+ Economy 1+ Talent

I was thinking on Oligarchy as well, but have my doubts on your Morale and Economy choices since technically the ruling elite could consist of military leaders instead of an assembly of wealthy people. So would be more inclined to use the (in)efficiency and support modifiers here.


On Economics:

Dirigism(e)

Strong state/faction directed emphasis in some key economic sectors (research and military come to mind), but at the cost of stiffling a truly free market economy for independent entrepreneurs.

So: ++SUPPORT, +RESEARCH, -ECONOMY

On Values:

Asceti(ci)sm

-GROWTH, +MORALE, ++EFFICIENCY

I'm considering here a worldly view on ascetism, not the mythical (inner human) version.
Morale increased due to higher self-esteem and a training scheme for the martially inclined asceets among them. Growth suffers due to an unwillingness to go with sensual pleasures, and efficiciency receives a boost because of either less resources must be diverted for a hedonistic lifestyle or the increased productivity that comes with having a clear view (or at least course of action) of what to do, how to do it, and when. The latter may sound a bit iffy, but can't find a better way to express it.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Sigma on May 12, 2014, 03:13:00 PM

Hmmm this is trickier than I would have thought. Partially it's because the existing SE choices cover most conceivable bases pretty well in broad senses, and also because it's hard to make new SE choices without duplicating existing bonuses.

I actually think that's the way it needs to be looked at-- what bonuses and penalties don't currently exist for each SE category.

Let's look at Politics first:

+Support/-Support
+Growth/-Growth
+Industry/-Industry
+Efficiency/-Efficiency
+Economy/-Economy
+Police/-Police
+Morale/-Morale
+Probe/-Probe
+Research/-Research
+Planet/-Planet

So that leaves the following effects as still valid:

-Growth
+Industry/-Industry
+Economy/-Economy
-Police
-Morale
-Probe
+Research
+Planet/-Planet

So that's a lot more negatives than positives. This could encourage us to create a choice in the vein of Free Market, where the bonus is very large, offset by significant weaknesses. If we do that, I think we would pretty much need to go with +2 Industry, as + Economy would make it too similar to Free Market, and +2 to Research or Planet wouldn't be a significant enough bonus. The way I see it, other choices could be:

+1 Industry / +2 Research
+1 Economy / +2 Research
+2 Planet / +2 Research

All three of these I think could be viable bonuses. Of those, I would choose Ind/Res, as Eco/Res synergize too well and would need a fairly significant penalty to work. The natural counter to that structure would be -Planet, as a high science, high production political structure would almost necessarily be unconcerned with ecological preservation.

Therefore, my proposal would be as follows:

Corporate Politics
Corporate Politics is rule via economic influence. Franchise comes from ownership-- a person owns a part of the Corporation in the form of stock, and the more ownership he possess, the more influence he has in the government. The system thus becomes highly oligarchic, as a small number of people with a large percentage of ownership ultimately hold sway over the far larger population who, individually, have less ownership.

+2 Research: Corporate Politics cuts out the middle man between money and the scientific private sector. The Corporate State directly funds research in order to expand its markets and thus its economic influence

+1 Industry: Again, cutting out the middle man allows the State to directly fund industry, which is in its interests.

-2 Planet: With no government intervening to impose ecological regulations, the Corporate State has no impetus to curb its exploitation of the environment

Corporate Politics would also synergize nicely with the existing Economy choices:

Free Market: Obviously Corporations and the Free Market are on very friendly terms. Free Market Corporations would have excellent research and production abilities, but at the expense of a net -5 Planet and the Police penalty that comes with Free Market. You'd be up to your eyeballs in tech and buildings, and also worms. So many worms.

Planned: A Planned Corporation would also work, as its Industry bonuses would synergize, though the inefficiency that would arise from a Corporation trying to exert command over its own economy would cut into its Research abilities.

Green: A Corporation with a conscience, A Green Corporation would have juuuust enough desire to not destroy the environment to offset its planet penalty, and the added efficiency would be appreciated by the Research sector.

So there you have it. Corporate Politics: the fourth path.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: JarlWolf on May 12, 2014, 09:15:30 PM

Somewhat what I had in mind for Oligarchy in my government choices, Sigma.


The -2 Morale isn't for the fact that there is a lack of military Geo, its for the fact the military would be divided between those said leaders you stated. The military has divided loyalties and thus isn't as effective as it could be, its why Greece was conquered by Rome; even though the Greek City States were in comparison FAR more militaristic at the time then Rome, especially Sparta.

Having a well trained, well equipped and even large military does not matter if that said military is divided between a few generals who have their own ambitions. That's why Rome fell as a matter of fact, or at least one of the many reasons. And oligarchies are rarely too popular with populations as they tend to be oppressive in their own right, and given I lived in an oligarchy during the 1990's, I believe I know what I speak of.

You do have bright and capable minds attracted to these leaders; and those leaders can generate insidious amounts of wealth;

but there is a penalty to the overall structure of the military and its stability and the lack of security means infiltration of your society is far easier as crime raises. I didn't want to just go -1 Police because that was covered by other SE choices, and the -1 Police would counter the 1+ talent and make it redundant.


Edit: And a further on this, Oligarchies can form in almost any society.

A free market Oligarchy is that of Corporate interests or similar to Venice.

A Planned Oligarchy is that of a Socialist state with a cabinet of politicians and generals who hold power, my nation under Stalin comes to mind in some respects.

A green oligarchy is a society with individuals in power who are communally concerned for the environment, A hippy colony basically with Elders perhaps.

And an oligarchy focused on mixed would be well, a mixed economy with Oligarchs. Most of the modern world comes to mind in a sense.

And an Oligarchy could value power, meaning its a collection of military leaders who wish to expand upon their army like you stated Geo;

or it could be an Oligarchy of Science firms and Research Institutions, men of Science who wish to vie for a technological and knowledge based arms race when they value knowledge.

Or it could very well be an Oligarchy focused on wealth, again reverting more to a merchant or corporate based oligarchy, who wish to procure more wealth.

And even for a Morality/family based Oligarchy, that means you got a group of individuals in power who are concerned about communal growth and creating a healthy environment for families and such. Probably a very noble outlook on Oligarchies in a sense.

(In the event of Planned, Oligarchy and Wealth, that'd be something of those leaders wishing to expand revenue and industry.)



And the future societies can again, go in conjunction with Oligarchy. Cybernetic Info masters and mob bosses, Oligarchic warlords/lords who rule with a complete iron fist over their mind controlled serfs, or a group of individuals genuinely concerned with keeping people happy, fulfilling potential and so forth. Or Oligarchs in a biological system in a literal evolutionary arms race.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Sigma on May 12, 2014, 09:47:18 PM

Economics

Let’s follow the same premise for Economics as we do for Politics and list the bonuses and penalties available:

+Support/-Support
+Growth/-Growth
+Industry/-Industry
+Efficiency/-Efficiency
+Economy/-Economy
+Police/-Police
+Morale/-Morale
+Probe/-Probe
+Research/-Research
+Planet/-Planet

So we see here that there are far more options available to us, due to the way that the existing economic models counterbalance one another. This sets the precedent, more or less, that Economic SE should balance each other out:

Green and Free Market counterbalance Planet
Green and Planned counterbalance Growth
Green and Planned counterbalance Efficiency

So it would seem that a fourth economic choice should balance Free Market’s Police Penalty or Economy Bonus, and potentially balance Planned’s Industry bonus as well.

Here are our options:

+Support/-Support
-Industry
-Economy
+Police
+Morale/-Morale
+Probe/-Probe
+Research/-Research

Let’s go with +Police, as it gives the SE table another option beyond Police State or Thought Control for accumulating Police power. This means we obviously can’t go with +Support, since we then have a duplicate of Police State Politics on our hands. Let’s also write-off +Research while we’re at it. That leaves us with +Probe (not very useful in my book) and +Morale (very useful). So let’s go with +Police and +Morale. This is a pretty strong combo, so the natural move should be to match it against a heavy penalty: -Economy. So what kind of economic system would engender a high tolerance for law law enforcement and an eager defense force, while weakening the overall flow of wealth?

Distributive Economics
Distributive economics follows Marxist principles of “to each according to their need.” Similar to Planned it involves a high degree of government command, but where Planned does this via price control and quotas to increase productivity, Distributive Economics does what it says on the tin-- it concerns itself with distributing wealth from those who produce it to those who need it. A Welfare state, in other words.

+2 Police: When their financial and material needs are cared for, people are more accepting of law enforcement, as the come to have a positive association with the State’s concern for their wellbeing

+2 Morale: With so much of their welfare invested in the state apparatus, the people are highly driven to protect it from outside threats.

-2 Economy: The downside. Distributive Economics takes a toll on the individuals who actually produce the wealth that feeds it. Capitalists who don’t share the State’s ideals leave for greener pastures, and the overall flow of wealth in the economy slows.

-2 Economy may be a bit extreme; tuning it down to -1 and morale to -1 to match it may be a less punitive decision.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Impaler on May 13, 2014, 02:20:20 AM

Good stuff so far, I like Sigma's style of working backwards from desired effects sets.

Oligarchy - The only problem I have with this is it's so flexible, the defining factor is the number of people empowered by government rather then a description of their motives and priorities.  The original 3 gov choices mostly point towards a group with a set of motivations (Police state is presumably lead by military making it more of a Junta).  Jarl's description is of a economical/patrician type of Oligarchy, similar to Sigma's 'Corporate Politics'  and I agree this is unique but perhaps we want to use a more narrow name to describe it, maybe "Patriarchy", their is still some ambiguity in that but gives a sense of a small group with a mix of economic/cultural dominance and it has the merit of not dictating anything about the Economy, a Green Patriarchy makes as much sense as a Planned or Freemarket Patriarchy.

Mixed/Dirgism/Distributed - These all seem a bit bland as you've all described them as a mix of Freemarket/Planned, I was hoping for something a bit more 'out their', something not really on the spectrum of capitalism-socialism that dominates our thinking in the present.

Morality - This is very solid, clearly it's distinct from the other values and you can get your mind around it and what it should do, Miriam would love this, their really are no values that fit her well right now, at the same time any faction could go for this as well without breaking their core ideology.

Eugenicist - So far are only future idea so it reigns unchallenged but regardless I really like it because it is clear from the other choices, effects wise though I think some Drone or Talent effects here would be appropriate, their are going to be lots of people barred from breeding (assuming were not killing anyone here, just selecting certain individuals to be the breeding stock) and this is certainly going to make them disgruntled.  Likewise low growth makes sense for the same reason, the benefits would all come from 'adaptation to planet' so Planet, Support bonuses look good.

Asceticism - Another strong value with a fairly clear meaning and a very LONG history on Earth and broad appeal in many cultures, the only downside is that the bonuses are a bit hard to tease out while the penalties (growth) are super obvious.  A real Ascetic is generally just using abstinence from pleasure as a means to some other end.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: JarlWolf on May 13, 2014, 04:13:22 AM

I am not speaking of purely Patriarchs either, I am speaking of any sort of oligarchs in a society. These can be ambitious generals, mob bosses, Leading scientists, corporate CEO's, anyone who is fairly influential in society but to the point where this society is DIRECTLY ruled by such individuals, the types of oligarchs being determined depending on the other SE choices.

Communitarian/Communal: Rule by the community, the community as a whole judges where and what resources must be used and distributed, the policies of gov't etc. This can take any sort of values, economic or future society.

-1 Talent= People are encouraged to conform, may stifle intellectual development.
+2 Industry= Resources are properly managed and industrial capacity is optimized

(This is different then Democratic as in this is a cultural/communal uniformity/control. Democratic politics means ALL citizens vote on something with the majority percentage making the decisions, this is about consensus and conforming so its not as democratic. Basically this is a system where communal leaders and figures if authority/communal trust usually dictate the decisions, or rule by mob.)

As for the economic choices, its fairly hard to make any other sort of type of economy as its either controlled by your government, focused on the environment/stability, or free market where its letting citizens deal with the economy.
There is no SE that is a mixture of those.

But I do have another one, if you wish.

Mercantalist- This economic regime is where the government exploits resources and merchants consign under guilds or set organizations. Colonies supply the larger cities and such with raw resources which is sent back out to the others, however, due to this internalization of the system trading with other factions is stifled, and the growth of the colonies may be prohibited. Growth of the homeland however is boosted and the population is encouraged to grow by the state.

-2 Support, -1 Commerce, +2 Police +1 Growth.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Yitzi on May 13, 2014, 04:28:56 AM

Government:
Autocracy (the faction leader runs things by himself).  Great for PROBE, horrible for EFFIC and maybe SUPPORT.
Democracy; there's really no good reason to change this, though the bonuses/penalties may change somewhat to avoid overlap with the others.
Hierarchical (the faction leader picks assistants, who pick their subordinates, etc.)  Great for POLICE and probably MORALE, as it's a very military-style government system, but probably bad for RESEARCH and maybe ECONOMY.
Meritocracy (this includes technocracies, bureaucracies, etc.)  Good for RESEARCH and probably EFFIC, probably poor for PROBE.

Economy:
Free (the government enforces contracts but doesn't get involved at all; all economic actors are individual people).  This would increase EFFIC at the cost of POLICE, not sure what else it would affect.
Planned (the government decides what's produced).  Again, this is one of the standard types.
Corporate (corporations are recognized by the government and given certain protections).  Boosts ECONOMY at the cost of PLANET, not sure what else (maybe -TALENT).
Gift Economy (people share wealth freely).  Would boost TALENT and probably GROWTH at the cost of INDUSTRY.

Values Focus (properly, values are what define the faction, and aren't going to change):

Growth (boosts GROWTH, penalty to POLICE and PLANET), plus the three that already exist (probably renamed Military, Scientific, and Wealth doesn't need renaming)

Future Society:
I think this one can stay as-is.  You need "None" for those who haven't reached that stage, and the other three are all good approaches for where society might head (technological, humanistic, or dystopian.)

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Sigma on May 13, 2014, 04:51:58 AM

You want unique, unexpected economic systems? Okay how bout Cryptonomics.

Let's create an economic system based around security and encryption. In the wake of the financial collapses of the early 21st century, investors and private citizens alike became distrustful of conventional economic infrastructure. Wall Street had failed them, the Government had failed them, and all their precious fiat money, unanchored from any secure backing, plummeted in value. From there arose vast cryptological networks of exchange, entire banks dealing in nothing more than information given value by its irreplicability. Dealers and bankers carry their encrypted public keys in place of watches, and goods and services can be traded in absolute secrecy.

In other words, Bitcoins, son!

+2 Probe: Conventional economics function based on shared trust in the value of credit and currency. For a Cryptonomic economy to survive, its investors must have absolute trust and confidence in the privacy and security of their wealth. This leads to a Faction wide enhancement of information security.

+1 Research: With the assurance of absolute privacy and confidentiality, both investors and scientists are free to pursue areas of research that they might otherwise be unable to follow up on, in a system where the paper trail would lead to more accountability.

-2 Support: Cryptonomics works great for private citizens and investors. Funding and supplying an army is another matter altogether. Good luck making that work.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 13, 2014, 05:00:29 AM

:D I like the way you wrote it up whether its a good idea or not.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Sigma on May 13, 2014, 05:04:40 AM

It's not a very good idea, but without rewritting the other Economic options there are only so many SE combinations you can put together that make sense and wouldn't be either overpowered or totally useless. As it stands I can't really see much use for Cryptonomics (which makes it an excellent successor to the Bitcoin empire).

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 13, 2014, 05:09:46 AM

:lol:

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Nexii on May 13, 2014, 06:41:20 PM

Rather than a 4th SE, these ideas could also replace existing SEs (unless you don't mind the new SE being enabled from the start of game).  I suppose another downside would be having to decide what factions get what aversions as a replacement.  Would be a fair amount of rebalancing, unless you make weaker default SEs. 

For example I had Politics: Anarchy (-ECON/-POLICE/-SUPPORT)
Economy: Traditional (-IND/-EFFIC/-PLANET)
Values: Survival (-MORALE/-PROBE/-GROWTH)...perhaps less fitting on this tier.  Survival more as in the demoralization of the harshness of Planet, until more established, I suppose.

Future Societies:
Machine Life: (+EFFIC/+++IND/---GROWTH).  Machines replace humans, diminishes natural population growth but massive production increases.
Shared Consciousness: (+++EFFIC/+++ECON,--PROBE).  More like the Borg, humans create a collective consciousness and virtual world to accompany it.  Sharing of information at the speed of light gives massive economic benefits, but the world is vulnerable to cyber attacks.
Hybrid Life: (++PLANET/++MORALE/---POLICE).  Nearing Transcendence, creating human/alien hybrids.  Help with combating Planet's defenses but are difficult to control.

Asceticism might give +PLANET, due to austere use of resources.  +MORALE might also fit, -IND as well.

Others that might work.  Values could also become more of a Philosophy tier than Focus (which I also like):
Economics: 'Socialism' - between 'Planned' and 'Free Market'.  +GROWTH/+ECON/-PLANET (lesser bonuses and penalties than either one individually)
Values: 'Hedonism' - (+GROWTH,+EFFIC,-IND). Pursuit of pleasure.  Could be starting (weak) or more beneficial.  Population works more efficiently but less overall.
Values: 'Utilitarianism' - (+SUPPORT,++TALENT,--EFFIC). Maximizing social happiness, but very bureaucratic/expensive in nature.
Values: 'Legalism' - (++POLICE,-TALENT).  Strict laws giving both more control but more unrest.
Values: 'Rationalism' - (++RESEARCH,-PLANET).  Tricky one, perhaps favoring theoretic research over knowledge of planet?

There's probably many other philosophies which could be put in.  But some might go a bit too counter to a faction's base beliefs (in which Aversion would be set, I suppose).

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Geo on May 13, 2014, 07:48:02 PM

Quote from: Nexii on May 13, 2014, 06:41:20 PM

Rather than a 4th SE, these ideas could also replace existing SEs (unless you don't mind the new SE being enabled from the start of game).  I suppose another downside would be having to decide what factions get what aversions as a replacement.  Would be a fair amount of rebalancing, unless you make weaker default SEs.

Now that's an interesting thought. Could it be possible for the .exe coders to make at least one of those obligatory starting SE's as an aversion?

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Yitzi on May 13, 2014, 09:31:09 PM

Quote from: Geo on May 13, 2014, 07:48:02 PM

Quote from: Nexii on May 13, 2014, 06:41:20 PM

Rather than a 4th SE, these ideas could also replace existing SEs (unless you don't mind the new SE being enabled from the start of game).  I suppose another downside would be having to decide what factions get what aversions as a replacement.  Would be a fair amount of rebalancing, unless you make weaker default SEs.

Now that's an interesting thought. Could it be possible for the .exe coders to make at least one of those obligatory starting SE's as an aversion?

Probably, but then what would that faction start with?

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Geo on May 13, 2014, 09:49:31 PM

The same as it does now in the unmodified alpha(x) version: a blank SE line in this particular section (either politics, values, economics, or future. That is, unless it is possible to code in multiple aversions).

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Yitzi on May 13, 2014, 09:57:36 PM

Quote from: Geo on May 13, 2014, 09:49:31 PM

The same as it does now in the unmodified alpha(x) version: a blank SE line in this particular section (either politics, values, economics, or future. That is, unless it is possible to code in multiple aversions).

I seem to be missing something...under what circumstances do you currently get a blank line, and how do you want things changed?

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Geo on May 13, 2014, 10:20:32 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on May 13, 2014, 09:57:36 PM

Quote from: Geo on May 13, 2014, 09:49:31 PM

The same as it does now in the unmodified alpha(x) version: a blank SE line in this particular section (either politics, values, economics, or future. That is, unless it is possible to code in multiple aversions).

I seem to be missing something...under what circumstances do you currently get a blank line, and how do you want things changed?

Perhaps I overstated it a bit. As it is now, the first option of each SE line has no benefits or negatives. It is just blank. But if parameters are put in there by some modder, the player can't opt out of them until the proper technology is researched. So if it was possible to have more then one aversion in the faction text file, they could be put at some (or all) of those initial positions, effectively blanking some (or most) of those initial positions out.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Yitzi on May 14, 2014, 12:32:43 AM

Quote from: Geo on May 13, 2014, 10:20:32 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on May 13, 2014, 09:57:36 PM

Quote from: Geo on May 13, 2014, 09:49:31 PM

The same as it does now in the unmodified alpha(x) version: a blank SE line in this particular section (either politics, values, economics, or future. That is, unless it is possible to code in multiple aversions).

I seem to be missing something...under what circumstances do you currently get a blank line, and how do you want things changed?

Perhaps I overstated it a bit. As it is now, the first option of each SE line has no benefits or negatives. It is just blank. But if parameters are put in there by some modder, the player can't opt out of them until the proper technology is researched. So if it was possible to have more then one aversion in the faction text file, they could be put at some (or all) of those initial positions, effectively blanking some (or most) of those initial positions out.

So you want that an aversion on the starting social engineering should, instead of having no effect, remove all effects from that social engineering?

That could be done, but you might want to think about what the in-game meaning is of that situation.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Geo on May 14, 2014, 11:38:28 AM

You completely misunderstand me. I'd like to give each faction the possibility to have multiple aversions. Say one in the politics line, one in the economics line, one in the values line and one in the future society line. Or any variation of those.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Yitzi on May 14, 2014, 12:51:30 PM

Quote from: Geo on May 14, 2014, 11:38:28 AM

You completely misunderstand me. I'd like to give each faction the possibility to have multiple aversions. Say one in the politics line, one in the economics line, one in the values line and one in the future society line. Or any variation of those.

That seems like it would probably be doable as well.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Nexii on May 14, 2014, 12:52:17 PM

I think the issue Geo is trying to explain is:

If you set for example "Frontier" Politics to have a Tech requirement, then grant it bonuses/penalties, you will get those bonuses/penalties whether you have the technology researched or not.  In effect you get the SE selected by default even though it won't show in the SE window, because there's no "NONE" option in game.  Multiple aversions would be useful but I don't see how it would solve that issue.  You would want some factions not averse to say "Frontier".

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Yitzi on May 14, 2014, 12:57:40 PM

Quote from: Nexii on May 14, 2014, 12:52:17 PM

I think the issue Geo is trying to explain is:

If you set for example "Frontier" Politics to have a Tech requirement, then grant it bonuses/penalties, you will get those bonuses/penalties whether you have the technology researched or not.  In effect you get the SE selected by default even though it won't show in the SE window, because there's no "NONE" option in game.  Multiple aversions would be useful but I don't see how it would solve that issue.  You would want some factions not averse to say "Frontier".

Enabling having nothing of a type could probably be done, though it'd be a bit trickier, but what would that represent in-game?

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Sigma on May 14, 2014, 01:03:00 PM

If I understand Nexii correctly, in game it represents the same thing that the current defaults do-- your factions having undefined politics/economic/value/future society choices. Essentially what it means is that all factions have nulls for each SE choice to begin with, but once they make a decision on each level they can never go back to that initial state, which makes sense-- once your political system has reached a level of complexity where you need to define it as Democratic, Police State or Fundamentalist, there's no practical way to turn back the clock to a Frontier mentality. That boat is sailed.

Title: Re: Create a 4th SE choice in each Catagory
Post by: Nexii on May 14, 2014, 01:27:06 PM

The same as before I guess, "Frontier" type politics before a government is chosen.  The downside I guess of having 4 SEs would be that you wouldn't be able to go back to nothing of a type.

Edit: Though I do have to wonder if the AI would be coded to recognize the first column SEs, diplomacy and attitude-wise..