Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Altera Centauri => Command Nexus => GotM Archives => Topic started by: Buster's Uncle on May 01, 2014, 11:28:33 PM

Title: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 01, 2014, 11:28:33 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=666)



The Planet Rising

In the year 2101, six factions left the damaged hull of UNS Unity and made Planetfall. Colonel Santiago, Lady Skye, Provost Zakharov, Brother Lal, Chairman Yang, and finally – you, Captain Svensgaard – led their people onto this alien world. The Gaians proved to be the luckiest and landed in a rich jungle, which helped them rapidly expand throughout the main continent. You remained in touch with Santiago, as you two had forged some rapport onboard Unity. However, the fate of the rest is still a mystery. It remains to be seen if they are dead or thrive in some secluded areas.

You found a safe bay at the base of a dormant volcano called the Mount of Planet. After a while, in order to contain the Gaian expansion, you decided to send colonists onto the mainland. After founding the Outpost and New Hope, you managed to establish mining operations on a range of hills, deeper in the continent. Things were going well for a while.

But then, something… happened. Nobody knows for sure what. Some say the Gaians awoke some kind of force among the ancient Ruins. Others, that the will of Planet itself manifested in a physical form. Perhaps the strangest rumors talk about a young boy who got lost in fungus and miraculously developed new powers. But whatever it was, it brought havoc to human settlements. Gaian bases, one by one, succumbed to hordes of mind worms, beyond doubt controlled by some wicked intellect. Gaian citizens were forced into submission, while Lady Skye herself, humiliated, swore obedience to her new master – self-proclaimed Prophet Cha Dawn, leader of the Cult of Planet. Now she is the head of a puppet government, a fraction of her former glory.

Soon, yours and Spartans’ bases were quickly conquered as well. Despite heroic sacrifices of your people, they simply could not stand against ferocious attacks of countless mind worms. As the Spartans faced complete obliteration, you used your transport ship to evacuate some of their colonists to a small island to the North East. Colonel Santiago refused to come onboard the ship, but was grateful enough to sign a pact of cooperation with you.

Shortly, waves of attackers reached the Outpost, your last settlement on the mainland. In order to evacuate the civilians, you have dispatched a transport to the base, loaded with your best soldiers, the Shock Platoon. They reinforced the garrison and saved so many people that you cannot possibly evacuate all of them. You need to choose whom to save…

Your mission is to evacuate, find some territory to settle and rebuild your power, and then to reclaim Chiron for humanity. You’ll be damned if you surrender to some disgusting bugs, even if it means fighting the Planet itself.


------------------------


It is 2106 and you play the Pirates. The main continent is overrun by the mind worms controlled by Cha Dawn. He is very powerful and remains a serious threat even when you leave the mainland, so consider yourself warned.

You start pacted with Santiago, but it is not a permanent pact, unlike the vendetta with Cha Dawn and Deirdre.

Your mission is first to survive, then to conquer Cha Dawn’s HQ. This is the only objective in the scenario.

You start with a battleship, 8-3-6, but you have no technology for the components. Do not play any tricks to pull reverse engineering on it (although I’m not aware of such a thing).

There is no Planetary Council. Nobody has the time for ballots and politics when the entire mission is compromised and the humanity itself is on the verge of extinction.

Raising and lowering terrain is impossible.

Other standard rules apply – no reverse engineering, crawler upgrade, bug abuse, etc.

Other settings:

large map
victory conditions: conquest only
Spoils of War and Do or Die off
Supply pods and random events on
Direct research, normal tech rate.

I provided this scenario in three different versions:

1) Light – for casual game, after evacuation you should get some peace for a while. Cha Dawn has no Projects and only a few IoDs.
2) Normal – quite a difficult version in itself. Cha Dawn has 2 Planet-related Projects and many units to keep you on your toes from the early turns.
3) Hard – look, some people just get off of pain and who are we to judge? Download this version if you’ve been naughty and deserve punishment. Cha Dawn has 5 Planet-related Projects and a horde of units to make your life miserable.

This is my first scenario, so feedback will be appreciated a lot!

Enjoy the game!

...

Enter the contest with a save of your won game posted here in the thread.  Badges to be awarded all AC2 members who post a valid submission.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: ete on May 02, 2014, 03:33:32 AM
Cool. Look forward to playing it when I get back. You want params for multiple downloads on the wiki scenario template? Maybe intergratable with difficulty somehow, will think about it.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2014, 04:00:53 AM
Sure, sounds great!
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 02, 2014, 09:18:33 PM
Interesting. At last some action! The only good bug is a dead bug!
To fight the bugs, one needs to know the bugs: nobody wants another Klendathu!

Question: do I need a patch (with Yitzi's or another) or does it work with the 'normal' up-to-date game?
And will there be a multiplier of score for those who can finish the Hard setting? :D
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2014, 09:26:30 PM
Kirov proposed that the middle difficulty be the competition standard, but I should think you're right about weighting the hard version much more heavily - I assume the same rules sisko applied to previous GotMs from our team (which did cover that, IIRC) apply, but the contest part isn't my end.

-It just hit me that I'm going to have to come up with another badge if we declare a winner; sisko only asked me to make one for each difficulty level.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 03, 2014, 05:25:00 PM
Thanks for putting this up, BU!  ;b;

As for the Hard version, a disclaimer: I haven't managed to beat it myself yet. It is designed to be the toughest SMAX challenge you've played, a nearly-unbeatable scenario, something which makes you curse the prick who made it under your breath. Which is how I like to play AC. I just hope the satisfaction afterwards will match the frustration beforehand. Like I said, I didn't beat it, but on my third attempt I was close enough to have an informed belief that it is, in fact, beatable (I was worried I was making an unwinnable stuff). However, I'm quite sure that standard and near-standard openings, tech b-lines and expansion strategies won't work here. I have some useful hints and tips I can share via PM if anybody wants, but feel free to figure them out for yourself! It should be fun, if in a slightly BDSM way. I think I'll give it a try myself soon.

And I thought this version will have 1 download tops. :)

Vishniac, o valiant Starship Trooper - I made these maps in the autumn '13 with the then-current Yitzi patch, I don't recall which one now. I think Yitzi's work can be used continuously so use the latest one, we'll contact him in case of any issues.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 04, 2014, 12:18:31 PM
Ok, I have downloaded the last Yitzi patch and I now have a Terran.exe file
Could someone once again tell me what to do with it? (in PLAIN terms, please)
I tried to execute it but the only thing I got was an empty logfile.txt

EDIT: doesn't matter, it plays as well without patch.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 04, 2014, 03:49:59 PM
Ok, I have downloaded the last Yitzi patch and I now have a Terran.exe file
Could someone once again tell me what to do with it? (in PLAIN terms, please)
I tried to execute it but the only thing I got was an empty logfile.txt

EDIT: doesn't matter, it plays as well without patch.

It should be terranx.exe.  If you have all the other files from version 2.5, just overwrite your current terranx.exe with the new one and it should play normally.  (Executing it not from the alpha centauri file won't work, though.)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 04, 2014, 06:18:14 PM
I'll do without. I hope it doesn't change anything in the game.

First try is going good. But one question:
Quote
Your mission is first to survive, then to conquer Cha Dawn’s HQ. This is the only objective in the scenario.
What if Cha Dawn HQ was inadvertently...destroyed instead of conquered? Would it count as victory?
Nerve gas, planet buster... Sometimes, my officers feel a little too trigger happy with these things!  :D
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 04, 2014, 07:30:40 PM
I didn't think of this question. In spirit of the scenario and after some thinking, I'd prefer you needed to conquer the HQ, as in the literal interpretation of the scenario objective. Otherwise Cha Dawn manages to hide in Vault 13 or [hand-wave your own rationale here].
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 06, 2014, 06:15:58 PM
Nobody finished it yet?
I am on the normal version. Quite difficult, yes. A little luck is necessary.

(Notice that more people downloaded the hard version than the normal one!)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 07, 2014, 01:52:01 AM
Yes, I'm surprised people download the hard version, too. Even the normal one should pose some challenge.

I wouldn't say you need luck, but you definitely can't have bad luck. All the time Cha Dawn has enough units to kill you many times over and with the AI's erratic behaviour, they can either roam pointlessly on the map or start taking your bases. Sooner or later stacks of demon boils will come, though, so you can kinda count on that.

I just quit in frustration ca 2180. Lost tons of units. I think I know how to pull it off, but I have yet to execute this plan.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 07, 2014, 01:56:32 AM
Is this with Normal or Will-Kick-Your-Butt-HARD version?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 07, 2014, 02:13:11 AM
I completed the normal version after I'd created it, just to make sure. It is by no means a piece of cake, but I've seen worse. Then I added a crapton of native units and 3 Projects, failed to beat it twice or thrice and still can't make it to this day. :) The very idea behind it is that normal expansion should be a dead end once Cha Dawn starts to send (as he actually does) waves after waves of units, after he deals with other AI (I watched many AI-only rehearsals of this scenario to synchronize the demise of other factions as well as I could).

If nobody finishes the hard one, I will take out a bunch of Locusts, although reluctantly. But if I win it eventually - the very hard version of my next scenario will be even harder. ;)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: gwillybj on May 08, 2014, 01:46:59 PM
I'm downloading this today. I don't play real fast and my fire is full of irons, so I'll need a few days.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: ete on May 08, 2014, 11:09:46 PM
BU: added easy/hard download params.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 10, 2014, 01:28:35 PM
In the hard version, I got to 2194 with whopping 23 bases, but then Cha Dawn mopped the floor with me. I'll beat this scenario or die trying, but this is the hardest challenge I've ever had in AC. :) Anyone has any notes or comments on this version, hit me up via PM.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Mart on May 10, 2014, 04:23:02 PM
That makes some info, that anyone who in 2194 has less than 23 bases is potentially in big trouble. However it depends on base development and other things.

I was going to ask about your techs, but that would be a spoiler.

I'm in 2116 on hard version.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 10, 2014, 04:29:04 PM
I'm not sure if I recommend 23 bases - it appears to me that it's their placement which is crucial. And I developed them on Planned which killed my research almost entirely. I need to try another approach.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Mart on May 10, 2014, 06:51:35 PM
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 11, 2014, 12:40:08 PM
I'm not sure if I recommend 23 bases - it appears to me that it's their placement which is crucial. And I developed them on Planned which killed my research almost entirely. I need to try another approach.

Yeah, I get the idea that research is going to be key.  The normal war techs aren't that important, but anything that boosts your psi combat, morale, or production probably is (most notably, in what's probably the best order (though I haven't really played it past one start-of-a-game that gave me some idea of what I was dealing with), secrets of the human brain, field modulation, industrial automation, doctrine:initiative, and ecological engineering.)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 11, 2014, 11:17:42 PM
I just got Neural Grafting while Cha Dawn has already built the Living Refinery, Supercollider, Theory of Everything and about 10 others SPs...  ::)

Only his erratic behavior saved me. He took 2 bases, I retook one. He has a crapload of units and a human player would have finished me without even blinking. But I resisted quitting and things seem better now. Could be or not.

I am on the Normal scenario. No way in Hell for me to touch the Hard one!  :-[
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 11, 2014, 11:57:42 PM
He has a crapload of units

Starting units or built?  And are they mostly native or not?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 12, 2014, 02:27:42 AM
All right, I haven't finished the hard one yet and I can't even say the victory is mine, but it's definitely the closest I got. I think I can safely say now that this version is winnable. I built HSA and have air units with 12r attack and fusion reactor (in 2196). But this coincided with an extraordinarily brutal attack of Cha Dawn, right after he killed everybody else. He keeps unloading masses of demon boils and Locusts take their heavy toll. This scenario is hell and it's true you can't go with bad luck - one odd, surprising attack and you're dead. With the AI, you never know if and when it starts to actually tear down your bases instead of just harassing formers. Strong garrisons are a great deterrent, but you'll never be prepared enough for this number of locusts, isles and sealurks. However, I'm fairly convinced right now that this can be beaten. *sigh of relief*

I'll write more when I complete it. Now I can only say that I just don't see how you can win this scenario with close-to-standard strategies. Anyone else actually trying the hard one right now? I'd love to compare notes.

Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 12, 2014, 02:32:48 AM
You should make the same post at the other sites...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 12, 2014, 02:33:42 AM
He has a crapload of units

Starting units or built?  And are they mostly native or not?

Everything you said. :) I gave him quite a bunch of native units and he keeps producing them (one save at the hard one at ca 2200 shows 140 mind worms alone). He's also got some (6 at normal, 16 at hard) demon boil locusts, extremely deadly, fortunately also quite erratic in behaviour. After a while he seems to switch to regular units, but native life remains his core.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 12, 2014, 02:38:26 AM
You should make the same post at the other sites...

I still have yet to finish it. ;) I secured all the necessary technologies, but the discrepancy in industry becomes so huge at some point that he may still flood me with units. But I'm not that worried and I think the worst is over - unless he goes for nukes, that is...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 12, 2014, 02:42:00 AM
No the post you'd just made.  Get in there and talk about your investigation into whether it's winnable at all.  It might draw feedback, and it's underlining the difficulty available for that demand I've noticed for hell scenarios.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 12, 2014, 12:02:28 PM
He has a crapload of units
Starting units or built?  And are they mostly native or not?
Both as said Kirov.
Of course the locusts were especially deadly (and I still haven't be able to kill one since without Neural Grafting I couldn't make an Empath Interceptor) but now he has a dozen of 10-penetrators*2 in my captured base and of course they perform total interdiction (no crawler, no former!).
What saves me is it's Zakharov who built the HSA so I can hope to mindprobe the base with its units inside (but...more than 1000 credits!  :( )
In SPs, I only have the Virtual World. And won't have another one.
The fight goes on... ;ulrik;
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 12, 2014, 07:55:46 PM
He has a crapload of units
Starting units or built?  And are they mostly native or not?
Both as said Kirov.
Of course the locusts were especially deadly (and I still haven't be able to kill one since without Neural Grafting I couldn't make an Empath Interceptor)

Locusts seem to be attackable with non-Air Superiority units, and it may be easier to weaken them with defense so that you can kill them with a non-empath unit.  (Or even kill them outright on defense, if they're sufficiently incautious.)  I suspect that the fact that a 3-res trance foil costs only 20 minerals will be a key part of a winning strategy.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 12, 2014, 08:35:21 PM
Locusts seem to be attackable with non-Air Superiority units, and it may be easier to weaken them with defense so that you can kill them with a non-empath unit.  (Or even kill them outright on defense, if they're sufficiently incautious.)  I suspect that the fact that a 3-res trance foil costs only 20 minerals will be a key part of a winning strategy.
Locusts attackable without interceptors?  :o
That would help me, I already have empath penetrators.

As for defense...I still haven't researched/stolen 3-res armor!  :'(
More later, I now resume the game...

(and else: still nobody completed the game in any version?)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 12, 2014, 09:06:26 PM
But I'm not that worried and I think the worst is over - unless he goes for nukes, that is...
2262: Cha Dawn just nuked a University base!!!
Beware, Man!
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 12, 2014, 09:41:29 PM
Locusts seem to be attackable with non-Air Superiority units, and it may be easier to weaken them with defense so that you can kill them with a non-empath unit.  (Or even kill them outright on defense, if they're sufficiently incautious.)  I suspect that the fact that a 3-res trance foil costs only 20 minerals will be a key part of a winning strategy.
Locusts attackable without interceptors?  :o
That would help me, I already have empath penetrators.

As for defense...I still haven't researched/stolen 3-res armor!  :'(

If you can build aquafarms, it should be only 1 more tech.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 12, 2014, 09:59:54 PM
A few turns later he nuked Port Svensgaard with my HQ and the Virtual World.
Then his air force began killing all my base defenders and invaders followed...
This game is over!

EDIT: and AAA-3-rres sentinels were useless against shard penetrators*2  :-[
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 12, 2014, 10:53:13 PM
Remember also that resonance weapons for some reason don't work against Locusts and that Locusts can scramble like Interceptors.

Right now I keep working from my "good" save (2187 with HSA) and go from there to improve my fighting tactics. I don't want to start from the scratch as I can't compete anyway, but I definitely want to develop a proper strategy for this scenario.

I did quite fine with his native life this time, 7 Locusts down to my 2-2-4 Empaths. Also 74 mind worms went to their worm hell, land invasions were no longer a threat. Everything was going fine, but then his shard penetrators*2 came and wiped my bases clean... He's got 89 of them as of 2212. I have enough techs but struggle with the industry (at only 8 bases this time). I hope I can go back a bunch of turns and deter him from attacking my bases by putting 1-8-1*2 AAA. I'm also seriously considering Power probably for the first or second time in my life.

Everybody else is dead except for 2-3 meagre Zak's marine bases, and you really start to feel that pivot when Cha Dawn deals with other factions and starts to come for you with all he's got. For a long while you're safe indoors as he rarely attacks bases with 3 garrison units, even all 1-1-1 Trance, but when he starts to do precisely that for reals, the game is essentially over. So it turns out this scenario really is a race against time.

No nukes flying in my game (yet), although I noticed he's got 7 fusion nukes produced and lost.  ???

Also a bug to report - sometimes mind worms stay afloat even if you destroy the IoD underneath them. Happened twice to me, got saves, will post them later.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 12, 2014, 11:20:34 PM
Remember also that resonance weapons for some reason don't work against Locusts and that Locusts can scramble like Interceptors.

I just experimented and it seems that resonance weapons do work vs. locusts.  And indeed they can scramble, and attack air for that matter.

Quote
I did quite fine with his native life this time, 7 Locusts down to my 2-2-4 Empaths.

Aren't they more expensive than if you'd done 1-3-4?

Quote
Everything was going fine, but then his shard penetrators*2 came and wiped my bases clean... He's got 89 of them as of 2212. I have enough techs but struggle with the industry (at only 8 bases this time). I hope I can go back a bunch of turns and deter him from attacking my bases by putting 1-8-1*2 AAA. I'm also seriously considering Power probably for the first or second time in my life.

I think this map is one where Power is definitely desirable...and AAA (plus maybe aerospace complexes) are likely the answer to his air.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 12, 2014, 11:31:14 PM
I just experimented and it seems that resonance weapons do work vs. locusts.  And indeed they can scramble, and attack air for that matter.

See attached image.

Quote
Aren't they more expensive than if you'd done 1-3-4?

No, although I just noticed 2-3-4 is at the same price, too. In this scenario it really doesn't matter, you successfully attack his IoD and then die from literally everything else.

Also another useful reminder - native life is prone to artillery. The Battleship you start with can wipe out a demon IoD (use bombing instead of normal combat), so you may want to keep it alive. Even huge stack of mind worms can be easily dealt with when softened up with one artillery barrage and 1-2 Empath units.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 12, 2014, 11:31:35 PM
And the image. :)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 12, 2014, 11:45:55 PM
I just experimented and it seems that resonance weapons do work vs. locusts.  And indeed they can scramble, and attack air for that matter.

See attached image.

Ok, I experimented a bit more, and apparently they don't work in air vs. air fights, but do work when attacking with a land or sea unit.

Quote
No, although I just noticed 2-3-4 is at the same price, too. In this scenario it really doesn't matter, you successfully attack his IoD and then die from literally everything else.

What does he have other than IoDs that can capture sea bases?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 13, 2014, 01:51:57 AM
What does he have other than IoDs that can capture sea bases?

LoCs can and I'm quite sure Sealurks can as well. Apart from that he produced some regular units like 5-3-4 and the like, but it's weird - I've always been convinced that all your unit designs go to the F7 screen and stay there until the end, but in my current game, F7 doesn't show naval units I'm sure I was killing.

And another thing, I believe it's common knowledge but just to make sure - the reactor doesn't count in psi combat, so you don't need to put Fusion on your 2-3-4 Empath units or similar cheap anti-native agents (I'm saying this as IIRC the 'combat odds' screen displays it wrong when you use a Fusion unit against NL - 1-1-4*2 is at 1:1 against an IoD, but the screen says 2:1; I'm not 100% sure of this, but my experience confirms that something is definitely off with the odds then, besides you can see in the battle resolution how Fusion hit points go down by 2 always).
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 13, 2014, 04:04:09 AM
LoCs can

Locusts can capture bases?  A bit surprising (as that would make them different than every other air unit), but ok.

Quote
and I'm quite sure Sealurks can as well. Apart from that he produced some regular units like 5-3-4 and the like

Those are common enough to be an issue?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Geo on May 13, 2014, 09:02:53 AM
LoCs can

Locusts can capture bases?  A bit surprising (as that would make them different than every other air unit), but ok.

Technically, they're a gravship. Can't those capture bases?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 13, 2014, 02:51:15 PM
LoCs can

Locusts can capture bases?  A bit surprising (as that would make them different than every other air unit), but ok.

Technically, they're a gravship. Can't those capture bases?

So they can, I never realized that.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 14, 2014, 12:30:30 AM
Well, I've been playing the hard version some, and it doesn't seem that bad; there's a strong element of luck (about half the time  ;cha; will show up with most or all of his locusts in the first 10 turns, and then there's really nothing to do but restart), but I got a fairly decent game, and seem to be doing ok so far.  Admittedly, he's got air power and I've only just gotten my fourth base (which will hopefully survive this time, since I've actually got decent defensive units), but I just met  ;lal; (he restarted near me after being knocked out by  ;cha;), and he pacted me and gave me Planetary Networks, so soon I should be able to start probing away  ;cha;'s tech advantage, and maybe get crawlers, naval yards, and lift the resource caps.  I also got a map of  ;cha;'s territory from  ;zak; (who declared vendetta later over my pact with  ;santi;, but too bad), and have been freely sharing and trading techs with my pact siblings in hopes of keeping them alive longer and having them research things I don't have (which I can then get from them.)

Admittedly, it hasn't reached the ";cha; got rid of everybody else" point, at which point I'd better be ready, but if I can get Doctrine:Initiative and Advanced Military Algorithms before then, I think I've got a good chance of holding until I'm ready to push back.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 14, 2014, 12:39:50 AM
I did have to save-scum once, not counting restarting:  ;cha; built a base on Mount Planet Island, which put many of my best squares in his territory (hence unworkable for me); I couldn't get to it before he built a defender, so I had to load the autosave.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 14, 2014, 01:43:50 AM
Well, I played a few more turns, and he showed up in force...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on May 14, 2014, 03:28:59 AM
Conventional Payloads to the face hurt...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Mart on May 14, 2014, 11:10:29 AM
Was patch version specified?

I played with last scient version (I guess)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 15, 2014, 01:09:10 PM
Created with some previous version of Yitzi's, works fine with the current one and I'm quite sure with scient's.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 15, 2014, 02:19:15 PM
It's occurred to me that due to the effect of PLANET, and the fact that isles of the deep are transports and can unload onto your island (as I found out the hard way), and the ability to bombard, the attack-focused approach probably is better despite using slightly more expensive units.

Also, I think probing for techs is going to be an important part of a winning strategy...now for another try and see how that goes...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 15, 2014, 03:59:36 PM
Well, I found a bug that has a huge impact on this scenario: If you bombard a unit with psi defense (either from a ship or an artillery unit) with a non-psi unit, the attacker gains the benefit of its weapon against the 1 or 2 of the psi defender.  Obviously, this makes your battleship too powerful (but being unable to bombard at all is too much of a weakness), so I plan to fix it and post patch version 3.0.0 with it fixed, so that the scenario can be played without the bug.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 15, 2014, 05:10:23 PM
Well, I found a bug that has a huge impact on this scenario: If you bombard a unit with psi defense (either from a ship or an artillery unit) with a non-psi unit, the attacker gains the benefit of its weapon against the 1 or 2 of the psi defender.  Obviously, this makes your battleship too powerful (but being unable to bombard at all is too much of a weakness), so I plan to fix it and post patch version 3.0.0 with it fixed, so that the scenario can be played without the bug.
Why should this be a bug?
If my battleship (remember USS Iowa and his pals?) bombards mind worms from 25km away and wipe out a full football-field surface of mind worms with one shot, I can't see how psi defense could counter-attack or even help (except spore launcher, being artillery themselves).
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 15, 2014, 06:12:49 PM
Well, I found a bug that has a huge impact on this scenario: If you bombard a unit with psi defense (either from a ship or an artillery unit) with a non-psi unit, the attacker gains the benefit of its weapon against the 1 or 2 of the psi defender.  Obviously, this makes your battleship too powerful (but being unable to bombard at all is too much of a weakness), so I plan to fix it and post patch version 3.0.0 with it fixed, so that the scenario can be played without the bug.
Why should this be a bug?
If my battleship (remember USS Iowa and his pals?) bombards mind worms from 25km away and wipe out a full football-field surface of mind worms with one shot, I can't see how psi defense could counter-attack or even help (except spore launcher, being artillery themselves).

It shows weapon and armor as what they're supposed to be (e.g. psi 1 vs. psi 1 when attacking sea), but the strength is calculated using the unit's actual weapon.  It also allows the defender to benefit from bonuses that normally don't apply in psi combat, unless the attacker is a spore launcher.  Plus, there used to be a bug with spore launcher attacks not working properly, so it seems that the bug was actually all psi artillery, and what happened is that they fixed it by saying "work properly if it's a spore launcher", but didn't fix the underlying problem.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 19, 2014, 02:08:27 AM
Well, having looked at the code, it seems it's not a bug...however, using the ability to bombard psi units as though they had armor 1 will probably make even the "hard" version too easy, so I still plan to provide a "fix" so that people who want to try it without that exploit can do so.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 19, 2014, 02:17:48 AM
Well, I played a few more turns, and he showed up in force...
As in you lost?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 19, 2014, 06:56:09 AM
...using the ability to bombard psi units as though they had armor 1 will probably make even the "hard" version too easy...
You'll notice that we are waiting for someone to post their win with either version... ::)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 19, 2014, 02:56:50 PM
Well, I played a few more turns, and he showed up in force...
As in you lost?

Yeah.  I think that offense is the way to go...

...using the ability to bombard psi units as though they had armor 1 will probably make even the "hard" version too easy...
You'll notice that we are waiting for someone to post their win with either version... ::)

Point...maybe I should try with abusing bombardment and see if I can at least do the normal version that way, just to check that it can be done (though it's still a cheap tactic).
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 19, 2014, 08:11:59 PM
Tried again. Stopped in 2132 already: locusts took Port Svensgaard and another base and killed 4 or 5 formers...

To have a chance, those early locusts should be removed.
To be more in theme, Cult should be in vendetta with factions other than Deirdre and those factions should be well-inclined towards the Pirates. That would show the "mankind unites against a common threat" factor. While, in my previous game, I had to fight Zak who was in Treaty with Cha Dawn and who, I suppose, gave him Fusion Power!  :mad:
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 19, 2014, 08:25:26 PM
Which difficulty version are you talking about?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 19, 2014, 08:31:15 PM
The standard one alas...
And by 2132 the Cult also already got the HGP, the WP and a third SP
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 19, 2014, 08:43:36 PM
I wonder if EM has played?  This thread/GotM needs EarthMichael.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 19, 2014, 10:42:06 PM
Tried again. Stopped in 2132 already: locusts took Port Svensgaard and another base and killed 4 or 5 formers...

To have a chance, those early locusts should be removed.
To be more in theme, Cult should be in vendetta with factions other than Deirdre and those factions should be well-inclined towards the Pirates. That would show the "mankind unites against a common threat" factor. While, in my previous game, I had to fight Zak who was in Treaty with Cha Dawn and who, I suppose, gave him Fusion Power!  :mad:

I've found that he'll show up with his locusts really early about half the time; in that case there's nothing to do but restart and hope that this time he doesn't.  (Although in the scenario editor units can be set to "sleep" until a certain turn, so that might make for a better scenario.)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 20, 2014, 01:55:55 PM
I beat the normal version in my first attempt, it was a challenge, but not that much. Maybe it's because I knew the map, but after 2-3 restarts you should get a decent picture of things as well. If you think you need it, you can open the scenario in the editor and analyze the map. I think it's not against the rules, although it's probably more fun to rely on your own exploration. Simply open your last failed save and study the map. In this scenario, careful base placement is crucial. I think I figured it out for the hard one, although I still need to polish other tactics like unit design and use.

Yes, there is a factor of luck due to random movements of locusts, but I don't want to change it. The entire idea behind this story is that you have to deal with tough units from turn 1 and you can't just employ your standard opening and hope for the best. If I postponed the attacks or put some distance between you and the Cult, then standard gameplay would work. And that's the last thing I want. ;) Besides, I uploaded the easier version as well, why nobody submitted such a save?

For the tough scenario, I strongly discourage you from going the standard tech b-line to IA. Building a fleet of formers also seems a waste of time, in my last attempt I didn't build a single sea former (they die too often). The most important thing is the base placement and quick use of certain techs you probe away. I hope I'll beat it soon (right now I have a lot of work to do) and post some more detailed AAR.

As for the bombing attack with weapons - I think it's completely fine, this is not a PSI attack, but a good ol' cannon barrage. Use your Battleship carefully and it will help you a lot, this doesn't imbalance the scenario in a bit. On the contrary, it can be fun to try to find a good balance between pod popping and bombing IoDs from the safety of your bases. And sooner or later it will probably die as well, so don't get too attached.

May Thor guide your Recon Empath Rovers! :)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 20, 2014, 02:31:17 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8550.0;attach=10028)

Kirov, should we consider extending the contest into June?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 20, 2014, 03:24:22 PM
I'm all for it and then we can think about July. People should be able to try 2-3 versions at their leisure and then have the option to beat previous contestants. So yeah, give it another month or so.  ;b;
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 20, 2014, 03:39:06 PM
Folks, Kirov is in charge of the contest, and that there's official.

Deadline 30 June.

Submit winning saves now and earn our gratitude.  Submit better ones up to the deadline.  Comment comment comment in between.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 20, 2014, 06:06:49 PM
Besides, I uploaded the easier version as well, why nobody submitted such a save?
Coming... 8)
I've been on it the whole afternoon; I should post a victory in the night.

The map was not the problem in Normal.
Much more the locusts, the Dream Twister and the fact that other human factions are not on your side (and sometimes openly help the Cult).
But it's like pole vault: first I secure a badge by posting Easy victory, then I'll think about Normal once again.  ;)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 22, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
But it's like pole vault: first I secure a badge by posting Easy victory, then I'll think about Normal once again.  ;)
It took forever...so I'll probably not try it again.
But here is my victory!  8)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 22, 2014, 10:56:01 PM
Now I have to knock out some badges...  Kirov, I'll need input...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 23, 2014, 03:16:35 AM
But it's like pole vault: first I secure a badge by posting Easy victory, then I'll think about Normal once again.  ;)
It took forever...so I'll probably not try it again.
But here is my victory!  8)

If it was that hard to do easy with the artillery exploit, I don't think I'll try for more (as I'm not really such a skilled player, just good at theory.)

That said, I'm pretty sure that if someone does want to try, techsteal plus artillery (even with a patch to make it not ridiculously OP vs. psi once I get that finished, though then you'll want empath artillery) is almost certainly the way to go; techsteal to keep tech parity (and allow putting heavy energy into psych for golden age pop booms), and artillery (remember all ships are artillery-capable) to safely destroy the enemy forces and gain breathing room.  Most important techs (worth getting even if he doesn't) are Doctrine:Initiative (for naval yards=morale=really important vs. psi), and Centauri Empathy if playing with an artillery fix for empath and green.  Most important projects (as there's no way you're getting them all) are (after the psi combat boosters, which he starts with on hard, and I think on normal too) maritime control center (for +2 speed; if you control the oceans, you have breathing room, and a large speed advantage is very good for that) followed by cyborg factory (as you want bioenhancement centers but they're expensive) and then cloudbase academy.  Minerals are very important, so you'll want some land formers for Mount Planet Island for boreholes, forests, and mines.  (And don't be afraid of ecodamage; you need a strong antiworm military anyway, and larger seas are to your advantage if you can keep things at ocean shelf for the mineral bonus).  For social engineering, the best when not pop booming is probably fundamentalist/green/power until you have bioenhancement centers, and then fundamentalist/green/knowledge since that'll give you the needed MORALE for auto-elite without an INDUSTRY penalty.  (If you get the cloning vats, democratic/green/power.)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 23, 2014, 09:12:47 AM
I still don't see what you mean by artillery exploit.

Whatever in easy there are much less native units controlled by Cha Dawn and Deirdre and most of their forces attacking you are conventional.
Artillery won't be exploited against other naval vessels, especially when they get fusion power sooner than you.
It certainly won't against all the planes the Cult and Gaians will deploy.

Quote
If it was that hard to do easy with the artillery exploit, I don't think I'll try for more (as I'm not really such a skilled player, just good at theory.)
You should.
If not only because the fun of this game is, well, to play it!  :)

Easy is not hard  :D  By playing seriously you have little risk to be defeated.
It's just that it takes a long time to get the industrial potential and the techs necessary for a long-distance raid on Cult HQ (since it's what the game is about).
I probably could have been faster but it becames tedious after a while. Perhaps I can load a previous autosave (20 turns?) and try to scrape some turns.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 23, 2014, 12:46:54 PM
I still don't see what you mean by artillery exploit.

The fact that if you attack an isle of the deep with a 4/1 ship, not only will it not retaliate, but you'll have a 4:1 attack advantage (before modifiers), as though you were attacking a 1/1 ship.  Since sea units can be destroyed with artillery, this makes the native units a lot less scary.

Quote
Whatever in easy there are much less native units controlled by Cha Dawn and Deirdre and most of their forces attacking you are conventional.
Artillery won't be exploited against other naval vessels, especially when they get fusion power sooner than you.
It certainly won't against all the planes the Cult and Gaians will deploy.

True that it won't help against conventional units...but only their sea bases can produce naval units, and you should have a strong advantage there, so I'd think that could be handled.

As for planes, there I suspect AAA units are the answer.

Quote
You should.
If not only because the fun of this game is, well, to play it!  :)

Easy is not hard  :D  By playing seriously you have little risk to be defeated.
It's just that it takes a long time to get the industrial potential and the techs necessary for a long-distance raid on Cult HQ (since it's what the game is about).
I probably could have been faster but it becames tedious after a while. Perhaps I can load a previous autosave (20 turns?) and try to scrape some turns.

Maybe I will play on easy just for fun...though I've got quite a lot of other fun games to play too, and I don't think a vs. AI scenario without mods shows the full potential of SMAC/X.  Perhaps with some mods, though...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 23, 2014, 01:57:26 PM
Vishniac, well done, your submission is accepted. Interesting approach to the conquest, I expected people just slowly steamrolling through the ex-Pirate bases. :) Feel free to replay the scenario, but I'm afraid you can't just go back a couple of turns and submit a better save, the rules explicitly say that this must be done in one shot, without any reload.

Can I ask what you did with that first transport when you have to choose between the elite scout patrol and 2 CPs? Put it in the spoilers, please. My approach was:

(click to show/hide)

Good work and we're waiting for more submissions!  ;b;
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 23, 2014, 02:00:53 PM
Yitzi, the feature that native life is very susceptible to bombarding was well known. It works well with land artillery as well. This doesn't skew the scenario in a bit, in fact make sure to make the most out of the Battleship before it eventually dies.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 23, 2014, 02:03:38 PM
...It's a feature, not a bug - at least in the design decisions made for this scenario...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 23, 2014, 02:08:15 PM
Can I ask what you did with that first transport when you have to choose between the elite scout patrol and 2 CPs? Put it in the spoilers, please.
This
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 23, 2014, 02:10:36 PM
Gotcha. If you have time, feel free to write more comments, remarks, hints and tips, do's and don'ts in the spoilers, I'd like to discuss the scenario afterwards and get info what to do or avoid in the future.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 23, 2014, 04:19:26 PM
Yitzi, the feature that native life is very susceptible to bombarding was well known. It works well with land artillery as well. This doesn't skew the scenario in a bit, in fact make sure to make the most out of the Battleship before it eventually dies.

Oh, it was intended for the scenario?

I still feel it's imbalancing in the larger game and plan to provide a patch that allows it to be removed, though, but that will no longer be quite as high a priority if the scenario was intended to be played without it.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 23, 2014, 05:04:56 PM
The winner badges are made and installed - and Vishniac is the first recipient of the promised completion badge, as you'll see at the bottom of his postbit.

Thank you, Vish.  Seriously.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 23, 2014, 05:22:18 PM

Oh, it was intended for the scenario?


Well, although I had used artillery to soften up native life, I didn't know this particular unit will become so deadly. Since this scenario is already quite hard, I see no reason to take away this one goodie from the player's hands. Especially since you can pop nearby pods for several hundred EC, but then the chances of the Battleship dying on defence quickly rise to nearly 100% (on hard). The only safe place to bombard is from within your own bases, and even then only for ca 100 turns. So I say make the most of it. And native life taking serious damage from bombarding has absolutely zero impact on SMAC's balance, so feel free to do what you want, but maybe this is not the highest priority.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 23, 2014, 10:15:18 PM
All right, I played from the scratch and this time I'm 100% sure the hard version is doable. I retook the Outpost and brought some heavy weapons into the mainland, but got too cheeky (I really need to work ;)), pushed too far, took 3 more bases and was this close to his HQ when literally dozens of Mind Worms showed up. I had enough missiles to empty his HQ, but without MMI I couldn't make a drop. What I need to do is go back like 10 turns, surround my outpost with air ZOC and bring in more reinforcements - his swarms are endless. Usually at this point (2212) he's got MMI which I can steal, but this time no luck with that, which makes it way harder. Also he's got 1-8-1*2 AAA units in his bases, I must rely on missiles and had to forsake some regular troops. But I'm sure I can do this. Secured MCC and HSA, conquered CDF as well. I was so close! I captured one LoC along with a base but lost it, if I use it wisely perhaps I will be able to clear the HQ with missiles and take it with the LoC.

Yitzi, if you care to make some adjustments - LoC on air defence seems to be immune to any kind of capabilities - Empath, Resonance, SAM - nothing gives you the much needed edge. I wonder if it's a feature? The only way I know to kill them is to throw 3-4 cheap Empath units, preferably land ones. And what really, really drives me crazy is that with air-to-air combat you don't get combat odds so you can't even see what works and what doesn't without sacrificing an aircraft.

Phew, good to know it's winnable after all. I wonder if I can take it up a notch, just a little bit, without rendering this version completely unplayable. :)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on May 23, 2014, 10:20:40 PM
The winner badges are made and installed - and Vishniac is the first recipient of the promised completion badge, as you'll see at the bottom of his postbit.

Thank you, Vish.  Seriously.
Thanks for you, guys!
For me, it's only duty: I have to assure that Man and not Bug will be the ruler of the galaxy Chiron.  8)

What bugs me though is that I am the only one posting a save while there have been more than 20 downloads of Easy.  ???
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 23, 2014, 10:36:01 PM
There's almost a week to go on the original deadline, and now they've got another month - it'll be a contest yet. ;nod

Your interest still makes future GotMs more likely, because it makes us happy, and thanks for that.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 24, 2014, 02:30:23 PM
I went back 12 turns and managed to complete it in 2210, this time without pushing deeper into the mainland. This is a completion with a few reloads, but not along "I don't like this combat result", it's just I didn't want to go back to square one any time I discovered I needed a specific unit design. Last time I had to reload was when I found out the hard way that you can't 'designate defenders' for Needlejets in order to protect your LoC (it is always targetted first in air combat, much like Interceptors), so I needed to design and send another Interceptor. But if there is any other submission, I may as well try to pull it off by the numbers just to spice up the competition a bit. The year 2210 won't be that easy to beat, too.

This completion is a bit tricky, as on the one hand I managed to capture a LoC (with a base that previously belonged to me), but on the other - I didn't have MMI to make a drop. I had to do this with a handful of missiles and my lone LoC. This time Cha Dawn was weaker, but maybe it was due to the early pressure I put on his units with my Empath units (I even baited his LoCs with my crawlers in order to lure them to my Mount of Planet and attack with rovers). And capturing his base should be easily replicable with some nerve gas attack, inciting drone riots and a fistful of EC. The main thing I here I believe is a proper base layout and careful, cost-effective unit design. You can no longer just throw your best attack air units and hope for the best.

I will definitely try to write a more detailed description of my strategy, I'd love it if somebody attempted this version as well and we could discuss it in depth. It was a very interesting game! Let's hear it to the scenario creator.  :D
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 24, 2014, 02:34:52 PM
 :unworthy: :danc:  ;rockon :clap: :wave: :bot: ;worship
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 24, 2014, 04:56:51 PM
All right, here are my thoughts about the hard version, feel free to discuss it with the spoilers tag.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on May 28, 2014, 03:08:54 AM
I am also playing the hard version. How do you create a spoilers tag?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 28, 2014, 03:12:21 AM
Key in [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] w/o the added spaces.  I've no idea how to make a button to do it for you...
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on May 28, 2014, 03:17:53 AM
Key in [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] w/o the added spaces.  I've no idea how to make a button to do it for you...
Okay.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on May 29, 2014, 02:34:43 AM
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 29, 2014, 02:36:36 AM
@Dio:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on May 29, 2014, 02:52:36 AM
Response to Kirov:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on May 29, 2014, 03:26:30 AM
I cannot seem to get past ~2170-2190 without the game crashing. I use Yitzi's most recent unofficial patch. Attached is the save.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on May 29, 2014, 04:49:31 AM
I've loaded and run it, ended the turn, and no crash.

Try running it through ollydbg, and let me know what you get for the crash (or you can try to bughunt yourself, if you prefer).
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 29, 2014, 02:40:09 PM
Dio, your save works here fine as well.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on May 30, 2014, 06:40:17 PM
to Dio:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on May 30, 2014, 11:34:05 PM
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 01, 2014, 04:50:52 AM
Everytime I play this scenario I feel as though I am being whipped/spanked with mind worms :'(.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 03, 2014, 05:06:26 PM
Does destroying Cha Dawn's HQ count as "conquering"?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on June 03, 2014, 05:34:36 PM
Everytime I play this scenario I feel as though I am being whipped/spanked with mind worms :'(.

This is certainly a feature, not a bug. ;)

Does destroying Cha Dawn's HQ count as "conquering"?

We had this question and no, after giving it some thought I think we can't allow that. Even well before the nukes you could just mount nerve gas on a few throw-away needlejets and call it a day. On the plus side, I would be fine if you just grab his HQ for a moment, i.e. even if he retakes it in his next turn and denies you the victory screen. Just put there one unit of yours and you can submit such a save.

I sure hope you make it!  :)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on June 09, 2014, 09:29:11 PM
So how is it going, Dio? :)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 13, 2014, 04:59:32 AM
So how is it going, Dio? :)
Horribly :(. Is Deidre supposed to betray Cha Dawn? In one game so far she has renounced her pact with him and declared vendetta.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on June 13, 2014, 02:20:08 PM
Weird, she's actually in a submission pact, but these can be broken occasionally (for example, your pactmate sends a probe team to the enemy base and you capture it before the probe arrives; I've seen once the probe in question failing to notice the change of the banner and proceeding with his mission). At least she should slow him down a bit.

Or maybe try the normal version? In my experience it's best to start with the normal, get the hang of the map and move up. And we still don't have any submission for the normal.  ::)

I can also share with you some not-really-spoiling tips if you want and if you forward me your save. You definitely were on to something.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 16, 2014, 03:58:14 AM
I finished and won the scenario! ;woohoo :1st: :wave: ;excite; ;relish
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on June 16, 2014, 04:23:36 AM
I finished and won the scenario! ;woohoo :1st: :wave: ;excite; ;relish
(click to show/hide)

Congratulations.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Vishniac on June 16, 2014, 11:30:38 AM
Congratulations!
I would have tried to beat it if it were the Normal version but I won't try the Hard one. No time these days.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 16, 2014, 04:36:55 PM
I would like to thank everyone so far for the Congratulations.

On another note, I noticed that skimship probe teams cannot effect enemy non-native sea units when they are inside a base but can effect adjacent land units. Is this a bug? In particular, I got the the warning that stated only units with the 'Amphibious Pods' special ability can effect sea units from a land square.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on June 16, 2014, 05:00:59 PM
My congratulations, Dio, and thank you! Well, for a moment I thought I’d created a scenario only for myself to enjoy. :) I saw your save and it’s officialy accepted, good work!  ;b; Feel free to post more saves, describe your tactics or address the stuff I put into spoilers somewhere above. And let me say your time score is remarkable as well, and here I thought my time of 2110 was good. What I like the most is that apparently you managed to…

(click to show/hide)

As for naval probe teams - it's true you have to leave the base in order to probe adjacent sea units (otherwise you get the 'need amphibious' warning), but I've never heard (or tried) to probe land units with naval probes, are you sure it worked this way?
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 16, 2014, 05:48:44 PM
I tested it on another map and it currently works as I thought. Naval units in a base can attack adjacent lands with normal power and bonuses/penalities, and Naval Probe teams can subvert adjacent land units but will not move into that square. Other things I learned include the fact that drone riots at a base lower the morale of all units supported at that base by 1 (it shows as [Morale level {-}]).
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 16, 2014, 06:12:14 PM
You can also capture NL on adjacent land w/ naval units from a seabase.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on June 16, 2014, 11:16:05 PM
I would like to thank everyone so far for the Congratulations.

On another note, I noticed that skimship probe teams cannot effect enemy non-native sea units when they are inside a base but can effect adjacent land units. Is this a bug? In particular, I got the the warning that stated only units with the 'Amphibious Pods' special ability can effect sea units from a land square.

Seems like one.  I'll put it on my list.

When naval units in a base attack adjacent land, is it treated as bombardment or a normal land-to-land attack?

You can also capture NL on adjacent land w/ naval units from a seabase.

From a seabase?  That's very surprising; I can think of no reason that a seabase would be treated differently than any other sea square here.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 16, 2014, 11:39:14 PM
The circumstances for it to be possible don't turn up a lot, but yeah; I've captured adjacent NL that way in more than one game.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 17, 2014, 12:37:55 AM
I would like to thank everyone so far for the Congratulations.

On another note, I noticed that skimship probe teams cannot effect enemy non-native sea units when they are inside a base but can effect adjacent land units. Is this a bug? In particular, I got the the warning that stated only units with the 'Amphibious Pods' special ability can effect sea units from a land square.

Seems like one.  I'll put it on my list.

When naval units in a base attack adjacent land, is it treated as bombardment or a normal land-to-land attack?

You can also capture NL on adjacent land w/ naval units from a seabase.

From a seabase?  That's very surprising; I can think of no reason that a seabase would be treated differently than any other sea square here.
More tests and a few minor revisions. Non-Psi Naval units in a coastal base can attack land units with bombardments. However, Naval Psi units (either Isles of the Deep or Cruisers/Foils with Psi Attack) can attack adjacent land units in regular psi combat. I will test to see if the naval psi units can capture land native life.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Dio on June 17, 2014, 12:45:37 AM
This is unusual. Naval Psi Units in a coastal land base attacking adjacent land units fight with the land Psi Combat Ratio (Base 3:2) instead of the Sea Psi Combat Ratio (Base 1:1). Also, the naval psi units can capture adjacent Alien controlled native land based lifeforms.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on June 17, 2014, 01:03:59 AM
This is unusual. Naval Psi Units in a coastal land base attacking adjacent land units fight with the land Psi Combat Ratio (Base 3:2) instead of the Sea Psi Combat Ratio (Base 1:1).

That's not strange at all; the ratio is based on the defender's type.

Quote
Also, the naval psi units can capture adjacent Alien controlled native land based lifeforms.

Sounds like part of the same thing.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Davyboy on June 21, 2014, 07:49:16 AM
Hello everyone!
Many thanks for keeping the comp open past its original limit. I'll have a go with the highly humbling hard version..
No rev eng - check
Saves every - what? - 10 turns? - every turn when it gets antsy?
Straight through to the end and objective obliteration verboden.
See you in an hour after I've been taken to the woodshed.

(1st of July I look forward to clicking the spoiler links)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Davyboy on June 21, 2014, 12:37:57 PM
Yeah, punishing - and not much fun.
Got as far as 2143 before Port Sven bit the dust under the armada of LoCs.
I don't think I'm a big enough masochist to have many more attempts at this level.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on June 21, 2014, 12:58:39 PM
Hello, Davyboy! The hard version indeed does require certain mindset, to put it this way. :) Try first with the light or normal to get the hang of the map and Cha Dawn's behaviour. We still don't have any entry for the normal, mind you. And we can put off the deadline for some time more if you want to play but are too busy with RL.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Davyboy on June 21, 2014, 02:12:48 PM
Good advice - no question.

Losing PS in 2143was probably just carelessness
Pretty obvious CDawn was going to be Fundamentalist asap to stiff PTs
But - 30 bases vs 3? and a starting mil advantage above 40-1? Srsly?

I suppose sneaking around the back has possibilities, with an immense salt mine for luck. but economically I'm stuffed when he has every fungus square as a hybrid forest with ecoboom for good measure.

On the bright side I managed to stiff 5 (lol) of his Demon IoDs..
Of course I'll have another go. Sooner rather than later. :-\
D
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on June 21, 2014, 02:54:57 PM
What can I say, the version names seem to be too casual and not really in line with their dictionary definitions. The easy can still keep you on your toes, the normal gave headaches to several experienced players, the hard was specifically designed to be on the verge of unplayable, for jaded lovers of SMAC who just can't feel that flame in single player anymore. Playing crazy hard settings is my definition of fun, so there is that. But trust me, it is beatable.

Enemy's Fundamentalist doesn't do much to your PTs, if that's what you meant.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Davyboy on June 21, 2014, 03:57:18 PM
Quote
Enemy's Fundamentalist doesn't do much to your PTs, if that's what you meant.

No, I phrased it poorly.
It's going to cost me to subvert anything, if I try such stratagems. (+2 PROBE for the Fundamentalist afaik)

Because of that, PTs have a pretty high attrition rate too (first one infiltrated and pegged out)
Really am going to have another bash. Hell, I knew it was going to be humbling before I d/ld it!
D
(Might just play from 2141 to study the "Boy's" strategy. It's reminiscent of a 2001/2 scenario that I played loosely based around Uni (USA) versus Believers (Al Qaeda). Except Muuuuuch more unbalanced and challenging)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Davyboy on June 21, 2014, 04:09:04 PM
Then this came up on the reload.
With Cha Deirdre about to stiff me and the Morgan survivalist corporation covering her back.

(Well you have to laff)
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on July 09, 2014, 09:27:04 AM
Davy, it's true that when the Locusts come, pain usually follows. I think the trick here is to play a couple of reloads (even within the same game as long as you don't submit it) to see what works and what doesn't. For instance, I noticed that you can score a few hits if you use formers as bait and kill attacking LoCs with Empath 2-1-2s or whatever their design is (I'm quite sure you don't need SAM against LoC, but can't check it right now). Another thing - in my game I didn't build a single sea former/sea crawler, as they have the life expectancy of fruit flies.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on July 09, 2014, 09:31:57 AM
Guys, are we waiting for any other submission for any of the above levels? The deadline is just over but of course we'll give some more time for anyone who still wants to give it a shot. If we don't hear it within a couple of days, I guess we can wrap it up.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on August 08, 2014, 04:11:14 PM
All right, I believe we announce the results!

In respective categories, the winners are:

1. Light - Vishniac - completed in MY 2292.   :win:

2. Normal - no submission, I wonder why.  ???

3. Hard - Dio - completed in MY 2170.  :win:

I would like to congratulate both of you guys, you officially receive the Badge of Cool. BU, please be my guest. Further, I'd like to thank all our participants and players. Please provide your feedback out of spoilers now, I'm really looking forward to it. Remember it's my first scenario, so any critique is most welcome. Just round it off with praises if possible (I'm sure you can think of something). :) I hope you all enjoyed it and see you again in the next Game of the Month, whenever that's gonna be!  ;b;

Below: artist's depiction.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: ete on October 18, 2014, 10:34:32 PM
I'm going to play this on normal, then probably hard. Not submitting, since late, but still.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: ete on October 19, 2014, 01:06:11 AM
First two games I got swarmed by LoCs before I had anything like a chance to prepare. Third was very different, no attacks until.. well, not late, but not 7 sitting on me immediately. I got WP pretty early, and rushed to probes while building a bunch of bases, but I think I got distracted and slightly clogged my economy with inefficiency Bdrones from planned, and too many formers+too many sea formers. I don't feel this is close to optimal on reflection, but am well on the way to getting the VW anyway. Next time I'll try for police based drone control, since it's probably more energy/mineral efficient.

I feel vaguely comfortable still and did snatch that WP which made me very happy, so don't really want to quit.. but also feel like my next game will go better if I don't get LoC rushed again. Must be an inconsistent AI issue.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: ete on October 19, 2014, 12:19:14 PM
I can't raise terrain despite having the WP.. Not sure what's going on. It's giving me the you need the right tech message, but having WP should override. Saves attached if anyone feels like taking a look.

I was kinda depending on that for my strategy, which was to build a landbridge between the strip and the main island and probe hard.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Yitzi on October 19, 2014, 01:25:01 PM
It has nothing to do with the WP; even if you have the actual tech (I tested with the scenario editor) it gives the same message.  Not sure if it's a bug or raise/lower has simply been disabled for the scenario and the message is simply bugged.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: ete on October 19, 2014, 01:48:09 PM
huh, I guess that would explain it. Annoying, I find landscaping one of the most interesting aspects of AC.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: sisko on October 19, 2014, 03:41:03 PM
..Raising and lowering terrain is impossible....
It's in the OP. I'm sure Kirov had a very good reason for this.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: Kirov on October 19, 2014, 04:58:56 PM
Yes guys, if the message claims that you need certain tech, it's wrong. I disabled raising/lowering in the scenario editor for good. Shortage of arable land is one of the most important features of this scenario and raising is the first thing that comes to your mind to work around it. :)

Have fun, ete, I'm looking forward to your feedback, here or in the CMN section once you're done playing and can look at this scenario in the editor.
Title: Re: The Planet Rising - May2014 GotM scenario for the Pirates
Post by: ete on October 19, 2014, 07:22:19 PM
Alright, missed that. Makes sense.

Thanks, and yea, will give you my feedback. Not sure if I'm going to retry this before or after my next AAR though. Probably this week anyway, too much free time.
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