Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: Dio on May 01, 2014, 05:18:14 PM

Title: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on May 01, 2014, 05:18:14 PM
Do you think it would be a good idea to have probe teams start at a lower base morale level? I also find it odd that you cannot have probe teams with a morale level lower than Disciplined. This applies even when you edit or create probe teams in the Scenario Editor.
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Nexii on May 01, 2014, 05:38:00 PM
Yes, or negative PROBE SEs should give negative morale levels to probe (like MORALE for military).  Although negative PROBE already has a penalty in making you more vulnerable.  Overall it's too easy to hit Elite on probes.  On this topic, how does one mod out the morale boosts from techs?  I think this was discussed before.
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Sigma on May 01, 2014, 05:47:02 PM
On this topic, would it be possible to divorce Probe Morale from the MORALE SE, and instead tie it into the PROBE SE entirely?

I hit this problem when working on my faction set. It's hard to have a faction with weak Morale specialize in sapping, because that Morale weakens their Probe teams just as much as their infantry and other offensive units.
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on May 01, 2014, 06:01:30 PM
On this topic, would it be possible to divorce Probe Morale from the MORALE SE, and instead tie it into the PROBE SE entirely?

I hit this problem when working on my faction set. It's hard to have a faction with weak Morale specialize in sapping, because that Morale weakens their Probe teams just as much as their infantry and other offensive units.

If it is not already done, it should be possible to do so. In addition, probe teams with a morale lower than Disciplined can not pentrate security interlocks created due to previous probe tech steals at enemy bases. This suggests, as stated above by Nexii, that probe teams either had a lower starting morale level or a negative social PROBE score caused probe team morale penalities. I have already figured where the base probe team morale level is controlled and I will attempt to fit in a negative social Probe morale modifier.
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Yitzi on May 01, 2014, 06:02:53 PM
Wait, MORALE affects probe teams?

So then yes, I think when I do the creche effect on morale I'll also have an option to make probe teams use the same mechanic as everything else, but replacing the MORALE with a simple +1 per PROBE (or -1 per negative PROBE), and covert ops center instead of command center/naval yard/aerospace complex.  (Unless Dio gets to it first.)

Nexii, to mod out the morale boost from techs, just look at the techs section in alphax.  There's a list of flags for techs, and one of them is for that morale boost.
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Sigma on May 01, 2014, 06:06:27 PM
Wait, MORALE affects probe teams?

So then yes, I think when I do the creche effect on morale I'll also have an option to make probe teams use the same mechanic as everything else, but replacing the MORALE with a simple +1 per PROBE (or -1 per negative PROBE), and covert ops center instead of command center/naval yard/aerospace complex.  (Unless Dio gets to it first.)

Nexii, to mod out the morale boost from techs, just look at the techs section in alphax.  There's a list of flags for techs, and one of them is for that morale boost.
As I understand it, that's how it works. I haven't played the game in several months though, so anyone with more information, feel free to correct me.
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on May 01, 2014, 06:12:10 PM
Wait, MORALE affects probe teams?

So then yes, I think when I do the creche effect on morale I'll also have an option to make probe teams use the same mechanic as everything else, but replacing the MORALE with a simple +1 per PROBE (or -1 per negative PROBE), and covert ops center instead of command center/naval yard/aerospace complex.  (Unless Dio gets to it first.)

Nexii, to mod out the morale boost from techs, just look at the techs section in alphax.  There's a list of flags for techs, and one of them is for that morale boost.

I just tested this it and I do not think social MORALE effects Probe team morale. However, if the postive probe team morale modifier for SOCIAL PROBE is reduced, the morale level of your probe teams are adjusted according to the difference. For example, say your probe teams are commando and you have +3 PROBE because you are running Fundamentalist. Now if you stop running fundamentalist and you have +1 PROBE; then your probe teams morale will be reduced by two unless you have additional probe team morale bonuses from specific techs (for example, Polymorphic Software).
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Sigma on May 01, 2014, 06:15:31 PM
Here is the question though: does having -2 MORALE or lower halve the Morale Modifier during Probe combat, or at any other point during the course of the Probe's activity?
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on May 01, 2014, 06:26:34 PM
Here is the question though: does having -2 MORALE or lower halve the Morale Modifier during Probe combat, or at any other point during the course of the Probe's activity?

As far as my tests have shown, no it would not. The morale of probe teams is isolated from the morale effects, both postive and negative, of military facilities and Social MORALE.
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Nexii on May 01, 2014, 06:48:42 PM
Of course I should add, putting negative probe morale on probe se should probably be an alphax.txt variable somewhere.  Also thanks Yitzi.  It was a bit extreme that so many techs boosted PROBE morale.

So we have just Covert Ops Center as a probe enhancing facility (+2), and PROBE SE (up to +3) - aside from techs?

Actually I kind of feel that with +probe team morale taken off all techs, and -1/-2 applied to negative PROBE, Disciplined by default might be about right.  Though it would mean Elite would only be obtainable at Covert Ops.  (+4 would be needed for Elite, so +2 PROBE and +2 from facility).  Green might be a more sensible default since other troops start there.  So in that case, perhaps -1 morale for -1/-2 probe, and maybe give a probe morale for 1 tech only.  Something earlier than Covert Ops center, perhaps Polymorphic Software.  Or move Covert ops earlier and put the free morale from probe later in the game...1 or 2 techs instead of 5.  Would help a bit to make PROBE a more useful SE, right now it's by far the least important in the game
Title: Re: Starting Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Yitzi on May 01, 2014, 07:55:54 PM
Of course I should add, putting negative probe morale on probe se should probably be an alphax.txt variable somewhere.  Also thanks Yitzi.  It was a bit extreme that so many techs boosted PROBE morale.

So we have just Covert Ops Center as a probe enhancing facility (+2), and PROBE SE (up to +3) - aside from techs?

Any idea if the bioenhancement center has an effect?  And should it?

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Actually I kind of feel that with +probe team morale taken off all techs, and -1/-2 applied to negative PROBE, Disciplined by default might be about right.

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Though it would mean Elite would only be obtainable at Covert Ops.  (+4 would be needed for Elite, so +2 PROBE and +2 from facility).  Green might be a more sensible default since other troops start there.

Although starting at Green with no boosts for tech and no effect from bioenhancement center would mean that the Data Angels couldn't get elite right out of the base without using either Fundie or Thought Control, neither of which really fits them; still, if Green is the default, someone who wants to use Disciplined as default could just give Planetary Networks the "improves probe team morale" flag.

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So in that case, perhaps -1 morale for -1/-2 probe, and maybe give a probe morale for 1 tech only.  Something earlier than Covert Ops center, perhaps Polymorphic Software.  Or move Covert ops earlier and put the free morale from probe later in the game...1 or 2 techs instead of 5.  Would help a bit to make PROBE a more useful SE, right now it's by far the least important in the game

I think Polymorphic is a good place to put it if there's going to be 1 (and not Planetary Networks).
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Nexii on May 01, 2014, 08:35:24 PM
I think the techs just give more success rate or some other benefit - not morale levels.  Tried with just Polymorphic flagged and it wasn't giving any morale levels.

Seems that bioenhancement and covert ops both apply (+2 levels each).  Should it?  Hard to say really.  The helpx.txt says 2 to military units, but probes aren't military.  It also gives +1 to native life.

Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Sigma on May 01, 2014, 08:39:14 PM
I think the techs just give more success rate or some other benefit - not morale levels.  Tried with just Polymorphic flagged and it wasn't giving any morale levels.

Seems that bioenhancement and covert ops both apply (+2 levels each).  Should it?  Hard to say really.  The helpx.txt says 2 to military units, but probes aren't military.  It also gives +1 to native life.
I don't see why it shouldn't. Bioenhancement would be able to make better spies just the same as it does better soldiers and pilots.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Yitzi on May 01, 2014, 09:09:26 PM
I think the techs just give more success rate or some other benefit - not morale levels.  Tried with just Polymorphic flagged and it wasn't giving any morale levels.

I thought they did give morale levels; what happens to starting probe team morale if you have all the techs but +0 PROBE and no covert ops center?
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Nexii on May 01, 2014, 09:14:54 PM
Elite with 0 PROBE, no facilities, and all techs back to default flags.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Nexii on May 01, 2014, 09:23:29 PM
Disregard the above, it is indeed +1 MORALE level for probe teams for each tech flagged

I think Probes should probably start at Green to be consistent with MORALE SE.  This would mean +5 MORALE to start as Elite.  So given that Bioenhance and Covert are +2 each, with Polymorphic at +1 this would mean +5 for Elite without having to run Fund/TC (defaulted).  Gives quite few options in addition to both facilities - one of the two SEs, plus Bio or Covert Ops also works.  Seems monoliths don't work to upgrade Probes also.

I actually think Data Angels would get better.  Their free Covert ops isn't until they get the tech. Also with +2 PROBE by default they get +2 morale levels without having to take Fund/TC.  So pretty much at that point they have Elite probes for free.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Yitzi on May 01, 2014, 09:53:27 PM
Disregard the above, it is indeed +1 MORALE level for probe teams for each tech flagged

I think Probes should probably start at Green to be consistent with MORALE SE.  This would mean +5 MORALE to start as Elite.  So given that Bioenhance and Covert are +2 each, with Polymorphic at +1 this would mean +5 for Elite without having to run Fund/TC (defaulted).  Gives quite few options in addition to both facilities - one of the two SEs, plus Bio or Covert Ops also works.

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I actually think Data Angels would get better.  Their free Covert ops isn't until they get the tech. Also with +2 PROBE by default they get +2 morale levels without having to take Fund/TC.  So pretty much at that point they have Elite probes for free.

Indeed.  Which is probably a good thing.

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Until this can be modded I think I will opt to not have Polymorphic give +1.

Yeah, the idea was polymorphic giving +1 would be for if it started at Green.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Nexii on May 01, 2014, 11:45:50 PM
Yea, I noted that even with +3 PROBE SE (as I mod PS, or Believers/Angels in Fund), plus Poly, you wouldn't get Elite probes anymore.  But then again relative to everyone else, you're still +1 morale level.  Probably still a good thing though as it keeps Covert Ops and/or Bioenhance Center relevant.  On a side note Covert Ops Center seems really overpriced (10 rows)...I never gave it any thought before with all the free Morale levels.  I think I'll try with it at 4 rows, 1 maint - the same as Command Center.  For 10 rows a Bioenhance Center seemed much better.  Although I believe the base gets +2 PROBE (something to test).  Not a huge benefit but it's worth something.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on May 01, 2014, 11:49:25 PM
@Yitzi, is this project worth the time and effort to implement properly?
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Yitzi on May 02, 2014, 12:21:10 AM
@Yitzi, is this project worth the time and effort to implement properly?

Most of it can probably re-use existing code, and I was planning to do some work on morale anyway to make creches not make -1 MORALE irrelevant, but whether it's worth you doing it before I get to it is your call.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on May 02, 2014, 02:18:31 AM
Ultimately you decide what changes are implemented and especially since you since you want to add alphax variables to control many of these options. I am simply confirming with you that these ideas have enough substance to be worth the effort and time spent working on them. I think the base probe team morale is controlled at 005C0EFF,005C0F07, 005C0F39, and 005C0F55. I am also attempting to isolate and fix a bug that makes the unit display not show the morale level of probe teams with either green or very green morale.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Yitzi on June 03, 2014, 03:32:15 PM
Looks like command center (and presumably naval yard and aerospace complex) also adds +2.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on September 18, 2015, 11:23:55 PM
I have figured out the method to make probe teams start with a morale level of green and to have it display correctly. The first step is to change the values at addresses 005FC0F39 and 005FC049 to 0. The second step involves changing the binary value of 82 at address 004B51A4 to 0. This allows probe teams produced by factions to start with a default morale of green. Probe Teams with a default morale of green cannot Steal Tech from another faction if a base has already had a tech stolen from it. They are also unable to perform assassination missions and targeted facility destruction. In addition, they cannot perform free faction leader actions. The above exceptions do not apply if the faction has a -2 penalty to PROBE.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Dio on September 19, 2015, 09:04:02 PM
It appears as though the calculations for probe team action survival and success percentages at the lowest use a green morale. This simply adds to the growing mound of evidence that probe teams starting at Disciplined was not originally intended.
Title: Re: Default Probe Team Morale Level
Post by: Yitzi on September 20, 2015, 02:30:25 AM
It appears as though the calculations for probe team action survival and success percentages at the lowest use a green morale. This simply adds to the growing mound of evidence that probe teams starting at Disciplined was not originally intended.

Clearly it was a later addition to the design...that's not the same as a bug, though.
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