Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 03:15:13 AM

Title: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 03:15:13 AM

I’m sorry for the length of this post. A summary is posted at the bottom of it!

***

Yesterday, BUncle and were discussing the reasons why people choose to play SMAC instead of SMAX. As a lurker, I have read posts on this forum explaining that most of this community plays SMAX. I choose to play the original, and there are members of this community and the player base, as a whole, who continue to play it. We agreed that it would be beneficial for the player base to play the expanded version of the game, for the resources that it contributes are useful to everyone. The purpose of this post is to explore the reasons for people choosing the original and possibilities for encouraging them to transition to the expansion.

There are a variety of reasons why people continue to play SMAC. Firstly, some digital distribution services, such as Good Old Games (GOG), were unable to offer SMAX in their catalogue until recently. As a result, people started playing the original, and they continued to. Secondly, some modifications and their developers, such as kyrub’s 444 project, have invested their effort in a SMAC codebase, so transitioning it to the expansion is time consuming. Thirdly, some people might disagree with some of features, such as secret projects, that the expansion added. Lastly, a criticism that I read more frequently is that SMAX changes and undoes the “feeling” of original. This entries on this list are neither exhaustive nor relevant to everyone. I want to develop the last reason (“feeling”) in this post.

Context

There are a group of people who play SMAC, and there are a group of people who play the “original seven” exclusively in SMAX. My opinion is that some of these people are responding to the atmosphere, setting, and characterization that the expansion establishes. I say that as someone who has searched through the forums that compose this community and as a player; I play SMAC because of the last reason. In the following paragraph, I offer my opinions about the “feeling” of the expansion. This is possibly contentious, but I offer my opinion to situate my idea and, perhaps, some of the more common criticisms of the expansion.

SMAX undoes the “feeling” of the game; it disrupts the atmosphere, setting, and characterization of the original. In the original, you crash on an unfamiliar planet and must seek to survive as you begin to unravel the mysteries of Planet. The text, through comments, interludes, quotes, etc., supports this. However, in the expansion, there are conflicts and clichés. From the fight between two alien ships in the opening video to the "green-ified" menu to ::jazz::/landlubbers.../cyborgs!/cultists!!/pirates!!! to brawling space robots, the atmosphere and setting are undone by being “shown” and “told” too much. For example, the opening video states that humans have established themselves, so it implies that accelerated start is used instead of beginning at planetfall; how does everyone start at the same time (i.e., crashing on the surface)? Similarly, it undoes part of the atmosphere established by the original: You know that something has been there long before you (e.g., artifacts and monoliths) and somewhat more recently (e.g., borehole cluster); however, the mystery and uncertainty remains. It is jarring to go from that to battling aliens in what feels like the centre of the universe now. SMAX "shows" and "tells" too much. The deteriorated atmosphere of the game occludes the mechanical nuances and improvements added; in fairness, I feel that expansions in general suffer from dismantling of the atmosphere, by making the setting more specific, that was constructed carefully by the original versions of games. However, this game seems to have more support for the original than nostalgia otherwise explains.

Nostalgia?

As an aside, I must evaluate my perspective for nostalgia. Do I consider the older version better without reasons? My answer is “no” for a number of reasons. Firstly, I went back to the original, so my view is a perspective instead of a retrospective. People may complain about expansions to other games, but how many reject them outright? Secondly, I recognize that the original has flaws as well. For example, the original factions can seem like caricatures of extreme points of view that we have today. It isn’t perfect, but I do think that it is closer to what I’m looking for (i.e., some nuance and complexity in the setting).

The Idea

When reading one of Yitzi's post, I had an idea: At minimum, could some of the expansion’s features be reverted to the original’s while the improved engine is used? (The post mentioned that you could just use the old tech tree by switching some files.) This amounts to a "roll-back" of features, so to begin (and illustrate my thinking):

• Replace the expansion opening video with the original
• Replace the opening screen and menu with the original
• Replace the expansion tech tree with the original
• Disable some of the expansion supply pod events, such as the Mk. 1 Battle Ogre

These are some examples of changes. Also, some features, such as the new flora (e.g., fungal tower) and fauna (e.g., sealurk and spore launchers), appear to fit, so they ought to be kept. They enhance gameplay, and my suggestion is neither “anti-expansion” nor “original only!”

Ideally, the tech tree could be modified. For example, the alien part of the tech tree could be removed or modified to be human in origin. The voiceovers and text could be removed or changed. While some of the new factions have merit, a lot of the quote material provided by their leaders may be too stylized. Something that I am interested in hearing and uncertain about is to what extent the quote material is cohesive with the original.

Feedback

Technically, I am uncertain about how to do these things. I look forward to researching them. BUncle encouraged me to start this thread even if my ideas are still developing. I hope that you are neither angry nor discouraged by my post! I want more people playing SMAX, but I do have some concerns about additions, whether they were by members of the original team or others, that undo some of the careful atmosphere and setting established by the original. I want that sense of wonder to remain while everyone is benefiting from a merged platform for support, modifications, patches, etc.

Do you think this is realistic? If you like SMAX, are there any parts you dislike? How would you address these parts, other than removing them?

***

Summary

People continue to play SMAC or play the “original seven” factions in SMAX because the atmosphere, setting, and characterization established by the expansion disrupts the strength of the narrative by “showing” and “telling” too much. (E.g., pew pew ALIENS/landlubbers because of ::jazz::/pirates!!) I want everyone to be able to use the newer product without losing the original. How might a modification remove some of the expansion’s additions while benefiting from the newer engine? I’m interested in your input and ideas. I know so little about this game and modifying it, so your experiences and opinions are crucial!

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 03:47:18 AM

I would point out the ideally, this would result in something that impersonated vanilla SMAC, but was compatible with things like scenarios made for SMAX.  That would be a wonderful gift to the SMAC-only-loving segment of the community, and be easier on scenario makers and so on...

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Dio on April 24, 2014, 04:54:49 AM

Sounds very similiar to how I like to play SMAX... To change the opening video back to the original simply open the sub folder named "movies" and rename the video called "opening" to "openingx". To change the opening background, rename the game files inside the SMAX game folder called "openinga" and "openingb" to "xopeninga" and "xopeningb".

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 04:55:32 AM

 ;nod

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Nexii on April 24, 2014, 04:56:39 AM

First off I play SMAX on Yitzi's patches, against AI and sometimes hypothetical MP games.  90% of these games are probably the original seven, sometimes substituting in a few of the SMAX factions.  The reason for SMAX over SMAC?  I suppose mostly just because Yitzi has added most of the bug fixes to that version.  But as I understand it kyrub is modding the AI for SMAC.  So I will have to check that out.

Personally I think SMAX felt really incomplete/rushed compared to the original.  To me it seemed like they added in a few techs/SPs, some new factions (nothing special, modders could do this), and called it a day.  Now most expansions do this, this is why they're expansions.  They generally take much less effort to create and sell for ~2/3 the price of the original.  That's business - I get that.  SMAC itself wasn't a smashing success financially so this may have played in. 

What SMAX should have been?  I feel that they should have just stuck with the original seven factions.  Mainly because there was already so much depth to them, which was then thrown away for five new factions which didn't really *stand* for anything different.  The Angels were pretty much the PKs, Cult were Gaians, Pirates were Spartans, Consciousness were University, and Drones were Hive.  At least sort-of.  Anyways they went from caricatures/stereotypes of different beliefs into borderline just silly.  And mainly they did deviate from the "Discover/Explore" themes.  It was all about "Conquer" - the fight between the Aliens, rather than learning about them.  The "Build" aspect was okay I suppose although arguably some of the new SPs were rather game-breaking.  In the sense of 'expansion' it mostly only expanded the gameplay, not the lore behind it.  Which I think is what drives most of the nostalgia. 

I think to really be compelling...the expansion should have had just one alien faction.  The faction (Earth, or alien) would have had to be powerful and very aggressive, their ideology clashing with every original faction in some way.  This wouldn't have been easy.  It may have required an entirely new tech tree, facilities, social engineering choices, etc.

Now far as modding I think it's very difficult to capture that 'feeling' of the original.  Either you prune everything new (might as well just play SMAC), or you modify SMAX keeping only what you like.  Then adding in what you think SMAX should have.  I think realistically it would be a lot of work to even do one new faction with voiceovers well, and have it fit in.  But certainly possible if you really have the drive and time to do it.  As well you have the issue of only 7 factions being playable which is not really feasible to change at this time.  You could explain one original faction not being present as the alien/Earth faction eradicating them early in the game - setting up the alien faction as the villain.  But then of course that makes any techs which include that eradicated faction as 'jarring' - as you put it.  For that matter, I found the same in SMAX - if all the factions were mentioned in techs/SPs then it should have been a 14 player game. 

Anyways, just some thoughts.  You could always come up with a new storyline for the original seven and work from there also.  I suppose the question really boils down to: what would you want 'expanded' on in the SMAC universe?  Were there things about the original game that you felt were unexplained?  Perhaps something that could have happened but didn't (like settling other Planets, or contact from Earth)?  Maybe something about how Chiron related to Earth...this was vaguely hinted at points.  This might all be rambling a bit, but it's my initial thoughts to the SMAC/SMAX debate..

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 09:21:44 AM

+1 on this idea. I don't have a clue how to solve the problem, though.

The division of player community on SMAC vs SMACX is not for the good for the legacy of the game.
I may prefer the first one, others the second one. But once there are patches, scenarios and work done, it becomes a problem of compatibility.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: gwillybj on April 24, 2014, 10:52:40 AM

I've done this. I play solo SMAX sans Progenitors. I felt like I was playing something from Marvel or DC Comics with characters from the Cartoon Network. I didn't change any of the videos or interludes because I skip them; I've played the game so much I can almost recite them all. I made a few necessary changes to alphax.txt to de-alien it without losing any of the "stuff" that was added.
I'll work up a description in a couple of hours, after I wake up and take the kids to school.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: gwillybj on April 24, 2014, 03:44:34 PM

I discovered that I changed a lot more techs over the years than I realized in order to cut out the Progenitors and fill in the empty techs. Attached is my alphax.txt with all the changes to prerequisites for various things. This is a mix of things I did and things other people thought of and I adopted, and incorporates Yitzi's v2.5 alphax.txt.

#CHASSIS: switched Cruisers and Foils: seems like boat hulls would be easier to build than aerofoils.
#WEAPONS: disabled the Colony Module to prevent Sea Colonies.
#DEFENSES.
#ABILITIES: enabled Heavy Transport at Super Tensile Solids: it works.
#UNITS: changed Transport Foil to Merchant w/Cruiser, Sea Former to Cruiser, did not change Unity Foil, added Trawler (Cruiser Crawler).
#FACILITIES: moved Aquafarm to Gene Splicing, put Sky Hydroponics Lab and Orbital Power Transmitter at Low Orbital Flight.
Moved The Weather Paradigm to Centauri Awareness (a Level 2 tech which replaces #78 PrPsych).
Moved The Virtual World to Optical Computers.
Put The Ascent at Transcendent Thought.


Here are all the changes under #TECHNOLOGY (28 of 89 techs):

Tech01: Industrial Base, Indust, 2, 1, 3, 0, None, None, 000000000
Industrial Base, IndBase, 2, 1, 3, 0, None, None, 000000000

Tech06: Centauri Ecology, Ecology, 0, 1, 2, 3, None, None, 100000000
Centauri Ecology, CentEco, 0, 1, 2, 3, None, None, 100000000

Tech07: Superconductor, Super, 4, 2, 0, 0, OptComp, Indust, 000000000
Superconductor, Super, 4, 2, 0, 0, IndBase, OptComp, 000000000

Tech13: High Energy Chemistry, Chemist, 3, 1, 2, 0, Indust, Physic, 000000000
High Energy Chemistry, Chemist, 3, 1, 2, 0, IndBase, Physic, 000000000

Tech22: Polymorphic Software, Poly, 2, 3, 1, 0, Indust, InfNet, 000000010
Polymorphic Software, Poly, 2, 3, 1, 0, IndBase, InfNet, 000000010

Tech24: deleted, delete, 3, 2, 0, 2, Disable, Disable, 000000000
Light Rocketry, RocketL, 1, 0, 0, 2, DocAir,  MilAlg,  000000000

Tech28: Temporal Mechanics, TempMec, 0, 1, 3, 2, Eudaim, Matter, 001000000
Temporal Mechanics, TempMec, 0, 1, 3, 2, Matter, SecMani, 001000000

Tech31: Super Tensile Solids, Solids, 1, 0, 5, 2, MatComp, Space, 000000000
Super Tensile Solids, Solids, 1, 0, 5, 2, MatComp, OrbitHi, 000000000

Tech33: Digital Sentience, DigSent, 0, 4, 3, 2, IndRob, MindMac, 000000010
Digital Sentience, DigSent, 0, 4, 3, 2, Gadget, IndRob, 000000010

Tech34: Self-Aware Machines, HAL9000, 0, 4, 3, 3, NewMiss, DigSent, 000000010
Self-Aware Machines, HAL9000, 0, 4, 3, 3, DigSent, NSpace, 000000010

Tech39: Doctrine: Air Power, DocAir, 3, 0, 3, 4, Fossil, DocFlex, 000000000
Doctrine: Air Power, DocAir, 3, 0, 3, 4, DocInit, Fossil, 000000000

Tech45: Industrial Economics, IndEcon, 0, 0, 5, 2, Indust, None, 000000100
Industrial Economics, IndEcon, 0, 0, 5, 2, IndBase, None, 000000100

Tech56: Threshold of Transcendence, Thresh, 0, 1, 3, 4, SecMani, TempMec, 010000000
Threshold of Transcendence, Thresh, 0, 1, 3, 4, Eudaim, TempMec, 010000000

Tech58: Centauri Empathy, CentEmp, 0, 1, 0, 6, Brain, Ecology, 000000000
Centauri Empathy, CentEmp, 0, 1, 0, 6, Brain, CentAwe, 000000000

Tech59: Environmental Economics, EnvEcon, 0, 0, 4, 3, IndEcon, EcoEng,  000000100
Environmental Economics, EnvEcon, 0, 0, 4, 3, AdapEco, EcoEng,  000000100

Tech60: Ecological Engineering, EcoEng, 0, 0, 3, 4, Ecology, Gene, 000000000
Ecological Engineering, EcoEng, 0, 0, 3, 4, CentAwe, Gene, 000000000

Tech61: Planetary Economics, PlaEcon, 0, 0, 4, 3, AdapEco, Integ, 000000100
Planetary Economics, PlaEcon, 0, 0, 4, 3, EnvEcon, Integ, 000000100

Tech66: Advanced Spaceflight, Space, 2, 4, 2, 3, Orbital, SupLube, 000000000
High Orbital Flight, OrbitHi, 2, 4, 2, 3, OrbitLo, SupLube, 000000000

Tech67: Homo Superior, HomoSup, 3, 2, 1, 4, BioMac, DocInit, 000000000
Homo Superior, HomoSup, 3, 2, 1, 4, BioMac, CentGen, 000000000

Tech70: deleted, deleted, 0, 0, 5, 0, Disable, Disable, 000000000
Heavy Rocketry, RocketH, 0, 0, 5, 0, EcoEng2, RocketL, 000000000

Tech77: Orbital Spaceflight, Orbital, 0, 4, 3, 3, DocAir, Algor, 000000000
Low Orbital Flight, OrbitLo, 0, 4, 3, 3, Algor, RocketH, 000000000

Tech78: Progenitor Psych, PrPsych, 0, 2, 3, 4, None, None, 000000000
Centauri Awareness, CentAwe, 0, 2, 3, 4, CentEco, Psych, 000000000

Tech79: Field Modulation, FldMod, 4, 2, 0, 2, PrPsych, Ecology, 000000000
Field Modulation, FldMod, 4, 2, 0, 2, CentAwe, Physic, 000000000

Tech81: Adaptive Economics, AdapEco, 0, 1, 5, 2, PrPsych, IndEcon, 000000000
Adaptive Economics, AdapEco, 0, 1, 5, 2, CentAwe, IndEcon, 000000000

Tech85: N-Space Compression, NewMiss, 4, 0, 2, 0, Orbital, BioMac, 000000000
N-Space Compression, NSpace, 4, 0, 2, 0, BioMac, OrbitLo, 000000000

Tech86: String Resonance, BFG9000, 8, 0, 0, 0, SecMani, ConSing, 000000000
String Resonance, BFG9000, 8, 0, 0, 0, ConSing, TempMec, 000000000

Tech87: User Technology, User, 0, 2, 0, 0, Disable, Disable, 000000000
Inspector Gadget, Gadget,  0, 2, 0, 0, HomoSup, MatComp, 000000010

Tech88: Transcendent Thought, TranT, 0, 2, 0, 0, Thresh, ConSing, 000000000
Transcendent Thought, TranT, 0, 2, 0, 0, BFG9000, Thresh, 000000000

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 03:51:34 PM

And this remains compatible with made-for-x stuff like scenarios?

I suppose it would be good to have a look at what is and isn't cross-compatible between unmoded vanilla and x...

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: gwillybj on April 24, 2014, 04:01:31 PM

Quote from: BUncle on April 24, 2014, 03:51:34 PM

And this remains compatible with made-for-x stuff like scenarios?

I suppose it would be good to have a look at what is and isn't cross-compatible between unmoded vanilla and x...

I truly don't know. I've never tried it that way, mainly because it makes the Progenitors impossible to use. With all the renamed and changed techs, I have a feeling it wouldn't be compatible. Everything that Yitzi did works with it.
These changes were made to provide an alternative for use with the SMACFacPack (a Yahoo! Group that developed a set of seven non-Progenitor factions), to go along with my huge maps (usually 360x180), and, especially, to make the game last longer for solo players.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 04:25:31 PM

Thank you, everyone, for your responses. I'm relieved that there is interest in and existing work completed on this idea.

@gwillybj It's good to know that tech tree modifications can be made. Your compatibility with Yitzi's ongoing project would have been one of the things I'd look for in any modifications. I enjoy keeping interludes and quotes/voiceovers on still; however, I don't mind there being silence if the quote has been changed. Your ability to recite so many of them speaks to how good of a feature they are!

Out of curiosity, why did you disable sea colonies? (Did I read that correctly?)

@Nexii The advantage to "pruning" SMAX to make it like SMAC is that you can reap the benefits of the newer engine. If SMAX didn't have some structural improvements, I would continue to play SMAC. However, I think that it has something to offer. I generally agree with your points about aliens next to my point that they should be kept a mystery. (I.e., who did make the borehole cluster?)

I feel uncertain about how I would want to "expand" the original universe. My first step would be to consolidate. I'm watching Dio's work with the redone factions with interest. My tastes for factions may be more minimal, though; I like the existing number of statistic modifiers for each faction currently.

@Dio Thanks for confirming that those direct video/menu switches can be made.

I agree that compatibility is one of the most desirable objectives to aim for in this idea.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 04:38:15 PM

Quote from: diessa on April 24, 2014, 03:15:13 AM

Replace the expansion opening video with the original

This could be done extremely easily, but making it an option (for those who prefer to use the new one) would be trickier.  However, there is a simple workaround: In the movies subfolder of your Alpha Centauri folder, there are two movies labeled opening and openingx; these are the original and expansion opening videos.  The game will play whatever is named openingx, so if you rename openingx to something else (or delete it, though that will prevent you from switching back) and either rename opening to openingx (which will cause SMAC to crash if you play it instead) or copy it and name the copy openingx (if you want to be able to play SMAC as well), SMAX will play the original opening movie.

Quote

Replace the opening screen and menu with the original

Could probably be done with .exe modding, though as far as I can tell that's just colors and the name.  I don't think it could be done without .exe modding, though.

Quote

Replace the expansion tech tree with the original

This can be done using just modding of the alphax file.

Quote

Disable some of the expansion supply pod events, such as the Mk. 1 Battle Ogre

This would require .exe modding.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 04:46:57 PM

I suspect the menu buttons in the opening screen are .pcxs like the rest, and I would advise leaving the start game procedure alone - the faction select screen is better, and I think the point of the mod is mostly blue and no aliens/Cha, which you don't have to select. -What to do about the random factions option would need thought, though.  I think best to leave it alone and just not use it...

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 05:53:32 PM

Quote from: BUncle on April 24, 2014, 04:46:57 PM

I suspect the menu buttons in the opening screen are .pcxs like the rest

Actually, I think the buttons are mostly done by a procedure; all that would need to be changed, then, is the color.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 06:03:31 PM

I'm too lazy to look into it, but there's a million tiny image files that do similar things.  You may be right, though.  Two or three colors, if so.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Nexii on April 24, 2014, 06:40:55 PM

Quote from: diessa on April 24, 2014, 04:25:31 PM

@Nexii The advantage to "pruning" SMAX to make it like SMAC is that you can reap the benefits of the newer engine. If SMAX didn't have some structural improvements, I would continue to play SMAC. However, I think that it has something to offer. I generally agree with your points about aliens next to my point that they should be kept a mystery. (I.e., who did make the borehole cluster?)

I feel uncertain about how I would want to "expand" the original universe. My first step would be to consolidate. I'm watching Dio's work with the redone factions with interest. My tastes for factions may be more minimal, though; I like the existing number of statistic modifiers for each faction currently.

Yea if you don't care for the alien factions, then I guess you can start by pruning out everything Progenitor - and possibly the new 5 factions also.  There's probably more room for new human factions in the storyline though - or at least to me they would have made more sense.  SMAX went more the route of re-mix and ret-con rather than truly expanding the story.  I think the issue may have been, they wanted new factions and gameplay without forcing everyone to play an accelerated start or one-map scenario.

And I do agree, the tendency of faction makers seems to be to give a huge amount of bonuses and penalties, with less thought on how those modifiers go with their theme.  I will say the SMAX factions had modifiers that made sense. 

"If you build it they will come" is probably a good mantra.  If you make good improvements, others will play with them.  I'm sure that after 15 years of AC, we would all like to see new factions, gameplay, and story.  I think what you're getting at is that the story is what made the original more compelling than SMAX, but SMAX had the better gameplay (generally).

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 24, 2014, 07:22:30 PM

Quote from: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 09:21:44 AM

+1 on this idea. I don't have a clue how to solve the problem, though.

The division of player community on SMAC vs SMACX is not for the good for the legacy of the game.
I may prefer the first one, others the second one. But once there are patches, scenarios and work done, it becomes a problem of compatibility.

If this was created, would you likely switch your focus to porting changes to the SMAX engine/working there (and integrating with yitzi?) so that users who prefer both SMAC and SMAX can play with improved AI?

Advantages: More playtesters, useful to more people, SMAX engine includes a bunch of bugfixes and general improvements, gives compatiability with more scenarios/custom factions, avoiding working on two patches at once, and keeps the fully authentic SMAC feel

Disadvantages: One off extra work porting over changes, having to occasionally sanity check the SMAX version, extra work learning the changed functions in SMAX, more importance on co-ordinating with yitzi (the last two would be greatly improved if you two share what you've found with each other in full, with agreement that AI is kryub's domain and yitzi's mostly focusing on extra modability, with bugfixing open to you both)

As for the project, I'm one of the people who thinks a larger game with more options is generally better, so am pretty happy playing SMAX even if it was not as well done as the original. However if this existing would convince kryub to shift development to the SMAX engine then I'm massively for it and, if it's not done by the time I get back to england, will contribute what I can to get it set up.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 07:25:54 PM

I believe kyrub will reply that the AI is managed differently for X and his work isn't really port-able.

But I do love the idea.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 07:44:00 PM

Nexii, I would say that SMAX has better gameplay, nominally. It is "better" by virtue of having a bit more development time spent on it after release. It doesn't add too much, but it, as a platform, is the best tool; that's why I suggest that it could be useful if we are, at minimum, recreating SMAC and, at maximum, refurbishing parts of it. My argument here is that the story/faction "extras" added in SMAX, and even by mods, miss part out of the "feel" of the game. It is interesting that, after 15 years, the "feel" is what has struck a chord in a thread such as this. I've noticed that so many games, expansions, and mods go the route of "more" but this often makes them temporary in their appeal.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 08:06:51 PM

Quote from: ete on April 24, 2014, 07:22:30 PM

If this was created, would you likely switch your focus to porting changes to the SMAX engine/working there (and integrating with yitzi?) so that users who prefer both SMAC and SMAX can play with improved AI?

Advantages: More playtesters, useful to more people, SMAX engine includes a bunch of bugfixes and general improvements, gives compatiability with more scenarios/custom factions, avoiding working on two patches at once, and keeps the fully authentic SMAC feel

Disadvantages: One off extra work porting over changes, having to occasionally sanity check the SMAX version, extra work learning the changed functions in SMAX, more importance on co-ordinating with yitzi (the last two would be greatly improved if you two share what you've found with each other in full, with agreement that AI is kryub's domain and yitzi's mostly focusing on extra modability, with bugfixing open to you both)

I'd be happy to share what I've learned (kyrub, send me a PM if you'd like the summaries of what I have so far), though:
1) Some of kyrub's SMAC changes are more than I feel are appropriate to make as unchangeable, and so would not be included with my patch unless he's willing to make them dependent on either the appropriate alphax variables (which determine if they're a good idea) or a new one; I'd give him a location for the flag and then he'd write it into the port, and I'd take care of loading it.
2) We're not sure how portable things are from SMAC to SMAX.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 08:48:05 PM

Quote from: ete on April 24, 2014, 07:22:30 PM

If this was created, would you likely switch your focus to porting changes to the SMAX engine/working there (and integrating with yitzi?) so that users who prefer both SMAC and SMAX can play with improved AI?

I would try to port the whole work on AI to SMAX if

A) It would be possible to switch to totally unaltered SMAC gameplay (which means, no Progenitors, no Cloudbase academy, no extra probe techs and buildings, no Battle Ogres etc. All SMAX content out.)
B) The switching to SMAC would be technically simple, like with an option in alphax.txt, or with clicking another (modified) .exe, or with a simple combination of 2-3 steps. So that every SMACer can play his game easily.

I'd be willing to help with finding the .exe instances necessary, though Yitzi certainly knows better in SMAX.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 09:58:26 PM

Quote from: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 08:48:05 PM

I would try to port the whole work on AI to SMAX if

A) It would be possible to switch to totally unaltered SMAC gameplay (which means, no Progenitors, no Cloudbase academy, no extra probe techs and buildings, no Battle Ogres etc. All SMAX content out.)
B) The switching to SMAC would be technically simple, like with an option in alphax.txt, or with clicking another (modified) .exe, or with a simple combination of 2-3 steps. So that every SMACer can play his game easily.

I'd be willing to help with finding the .exe instances necessary, though Yitzi certainly knows better in SMAX.

Well, it looks like once I finish my own list, enabling SMAC gameplay with a technically simple switch will probably be the next step.  This is the proper thread for it anyway, so perhaps we should make as complete a list as we can come up with of the stuff that would need changing.  The tech tree and factions are an obvious one, and easy.  I can also think of the new native life forms (all but fungal towers could simply be changed to equal the corresponding old ones and made unbuildable) and battle ogres from pods.  Plus the changed menu graphics and opening movie.  Anything else?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 24, 2014, 10:07:49 PM

Quote from: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 08:48:05 PM

A) It would be possible to switch to totally unaltered SMAC gameplay (which means, no Progenitors, no Cloudbase academy, no extra probe techs and buildings, no Battle Ogres etc. All SMAX content out.)

Most of what you want seems possible by adjusting the alphax file. Disabling/relinking techs, weapons, abilities, buildings and SP's shouldn't be a sweat. Ogres, Sealurks, and Spore Launchers can be reconfigured to mind worms and isles of the deep. Fungal Towers are a bit of a problem though since those are immovable units and can let fungus grow in adjacent tiles which is strictly speaking a change from SMAC play.
You deem the removal of the algorithmic enhancement ability a necessity, or the possibility of liberation of imprisoned leaders for that matter?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 24, 2014, 10:11:54 PM

That all sounds very promising :).

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 24, 2014, 10:16:46 PM

Quote

You deem the removal of the algorithmic enhancement ability a necessity, or the possibility of liberation of imprisoned leaders for that matter?

I don't see why you would have to get rid of liberation.  No one uses it anyway. :-D
Algorithmic enhancement.... could be balanced.  Would be easy to remove or add. (though the tech tree options)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 24, 2014, 10:20:05 PM

Something that can't be removed by the alphax file are landmarks AFAIK. Unity Wreckage, Manifold Nexus, that reef landmark...

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 24, 2014, 10:23:11 PM

Hmmmm.... a frontend for SMAC/SMAX for changing what factions/rulesets are in use.   Doesn't sound to hard.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 24, 2014, 10:25:44 PM

Quote from: Ford_Prefect on April 24, 2014, 10:16:46 PM

  No one uses it anyway. :-D

I did once in a PBEM. To great consternation of a veteran SMACX player. :D
Com'on, would you let Deedee be tortured in a Punishment Sphere if there are more pleasant options? ;cute

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 10:26:51 PM

I'd dance with her if she'd let me ;hippy

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 10:29:23 PM

While beginning with recreating SMAC within SMAX is a logical starting point, how might we determine what SMAX additions are sensible to keep or new additions ought to be made? What criteria would we have for this project? In the interim, a full reversion is sensible; it provides the community with a base to work with from there.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 10:31:20 PM

So so far (in terms of what would constitute a full reversion) we have:
The tech tree and factions.  The new native life forms, and battle ogres from pods.  Plus the changed menu graphics and opening movie.  Freeing faction leaders, landmarks, cloning.

And it might make sense to have options regarding which parts of a full reversion would be included; after all, if there's going to be an alphax variable to control this, there's no reason that the ability to free faction leaders and having battle ogres from pods have to be the same value...

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 10:41:47 PM

Good point, Yitzi.

To revert:

Opening video
Opening screen and menu
Technology (thus quotes and voiceovers)
Supply pod effects (cloning, Ogres)
Landmarks/map
Native lifeforms

To maintain or modify:

Faction selection (i.e., clearer selection of factions)
Freeing leaders (i.e., expanded diplomacy options)

Edit: while I like the idea of the user selecting some core things, I want a default to reflect a discussions about things that should be kept. I don't necessarily want to revert for the sake of reverting. I don't mean keeping crazy things like the Cloudbase Academy, but options that perhaps "should" have been there originally, but were only added thanks to the development time from February (release) to October (expansion release).

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 10:42:54 PM

Quote from: diessa on April 24, 2014, 10:41:47 PM

Good point, Yitzi.

To revert:

Opening video
Opening screen and menu
Technology (thus quotes and voiceovers)
Supply pod effects (cloning, Ogres)
Landmarks/map
Native lifeforms

To maintain or modify (i.e., keep!):

Faction selection (i.e., clearer selection of factions)
Freeing leaders (i.e., expanded diplomacy options)

I'll add cloning to the list.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 10:45:56 PM

Yitzi, could you expand on your comment about some stylistic differences with kyrub's 444 version? My guess was that he normalized faction AI, thus homegenized personality, to make the AI more competitive. I'm curious at tracing the possible fault lines between the two projects. It may be unnecessary if you're able to incorporate much of his stuff anyways.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 10:46:24 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 10:31:20 PM

landmarks.

A lot of landmarks (all of them??) were enabled in SMAC 4.0. Manifold Nexus, I think, Borehole Cluster was a new addition as well. Don't know if some were left out. Simple comparing of alpha.txt and alphax.txt should tell it (I don't have the latter one).

Quote

And it might make sense to have options regarding which parts of a full reversion would be included

Yes. Exactly, that would be cool.

What I wish for is just that there is a simple (basic) option, to play the original SMAC (plus the configurable options).
Several big mods I know claim they allow to play the original game, but they fail to do it (Heroes WoG, Jagged Alliance 1.13) and, ultimately, they divide the playing  community. Let's avoid this.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2014, 10:47:40 PM

Maximum compatibility with mods, scenarios and such, of course, or what's the point?

Ninja'd:  Absolutely, k.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 10:52:44 PM

Those are good points. I agree.

As an aside, the wreckage of the Unity wasn't included in the original, yet Garland Crater is. I was wondering if the crater was the Unity (considering it wasn't slowing down at all) or it was simply named after the Captain? Is the Unity wreckage, added in later versions, a random spawn, or does it appear near the Freshwater Sea on the normal-sized map? Two or three factions usually start there, so it could be a balance issue (i.e., 'copters).

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 10:58:36 PM

Quote from: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 10:46:24 PM

A lot of landmarks (all of them??) were enabled in SMAC 4.0. Manifold Nexus, I think, Borehole Cluster was a new addition as well. Don't know if some were left out. Simple comparing of alpha.txt and alphax.txt should tell it (I don't have the latter one).

Unity wreckage and fossil field ridge are the only actually new ones, apparently.

Quote from: diessa on April 24, 2014, 10:45:56 PM

Yitzi, could you expand on your comment about some stylistic differences with kyrub's 444 version? My guess was that he normalized faction AI, thus homegenized personality, to make the AI more competitive. I'm curious at tracing the possible fault lines between the two projects. It may be unnecessary if you're able to incorporate much of his stuff anyways.

The normalized faction AI is part of it; also, I seem to remember a bunch of stuff that makes the AI more competitive in the unmodded game but would also make it less competitive in a modded game (e.g. teaching it to pop boom will steer it wrong if modding is used to make pop booming much harder.)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 11:03:28 PM

Perhaps we could have an "original" version and a "polished" version that would polish the original experience. The second one could contain some of the modified behaviours that allow the AI to succeed in an original environment. 

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 24, 2014, 11:05:49 PM

I am working on a mod launcher for SMACX as we speak.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 11:09:23 PM

If a modification launcher could be combined with a version of this project, including capability to select what is reverted to SMAC, players could access a contemporary version of SMAC that includes the major AI and patch projects (which both, in turn, include the previous major projects). A player could have access to nearly everything the community has to offer within one set of packaging!

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 24, 2014, 11:23:08 PM

Quote from: diessa on April 24, 2014, 11:03:28 PM

Perhaps we could have an "original" version and a "polished" version that would polish the original experience. The second one could contain some of the modified behaviours that allow the AI to succeed in an original environment.

Or even make different things available independently.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 11:27:27 PM

If it is possible to provide that degree of flexibility, that'd be great. In the end, though, suggested settings will need to be provided. "As close to the original" and "as close to the original with optimized AI" seem like two good ones for users interested in just getting into the game.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 24, 2014, 11:38:46 PM

I think there is nothing against creating a well-thought, community driven patch, I mean set of rules(some like them, some don't (I do)). Such patch/set of rules may be well used in MP games, for instance.

So far, the thread sounds like dreaming. Once there are actual concrete steps, I'll start doing my AI part, after I finish current WIP.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 24, 2014, 11:44:14 PM

Edit: I'm in the process of writing a specifications document. Yitzi, it'll have a detailed list of what we discussed so far.

You're right, kyrub. This idea is moving more quickly than I anticipated, so I'm encouraged by it. I'm uninitiated and unskilled as a moder, but I can probably do the easier tasks after some reading. My sense from this thread is that there are already people who have done or are doing the things we have brought up. So, it is more about managing the information. In terms of a community collaboration, what communication and file sharing base would be good?

Perhaps we could set up a set of files on Dropbox (or a similar service). We could set up a specifications document and list of ongoing work/delegated work in a Google Doc (or similar service). That, plus forum posts and, if people want, some instant messaging services, would probably be sufficient?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 12:52:03 AM

We have an IRC channel dealy under the Chat button at the top of the page for live conversation, if needed.  Naturally, I think the more done in public posts right here, the better...  I could set up a special category in Downloads for file sharing, if that's workable...

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 01:06:35 AM

Quote from: diessa on April 24, 2014, 11:44:14 PM

Edit: I'm in the process of writing a specifications document. Yitzi, it'll have a detailed list of what we discussed so far.

You're right, kyrub. This idea is moving more quickly than I anticipated, so I'm encouraged by it. I'm uninitiated and unskilled as a moder, but I can probably do the easier tasks after some reading. My sense from this thread is that there are already people who have done or are doing the things we have brought up.

I don't think it's being worked on yet, but it's on the list.

Quote

Perhaps we could set up a set of files on Dropbox (or a similar service). We could set up a specifications document and list of ongoing work/delegated work in a Google Doc (or similar service). That, plus forum posts and, if people want, some instant messaging services, would probably be sufficient?

Whatever you set up, I can probably use.

However, file sharing won't help that much in terms of combining mods, as what would need sharing would not be files but rather the modded bitcode (or disassembled form if it's short enough, as is the case for most bugfixes) of the procedure or part of a procedure...and that tends to be short enough to be sent via PM.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 01:16:57 AM

ete will probably suggest a working master list on the AC Wiki, if he comes back soon - and I sense he will.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 01:34:34 AM

A wiki article would be a good candidate. However, it may be more cumbersome to update than something like a Google Doc.  For now, I drafted some specifications on one of my Google Accounts. You can see it here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12kd7Dl-tFmMOSWJaVrW6-8ZHQmlhfW7dmbXiRS4OKXo/edit?usp=sharing).

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 01:36:01 AM

You know me too well BU :). Though anywhere that yitzi+kryub can both edit and others can comment on would be fine.

Anyway, some proposed concrete steps:
1. Collect (or locate) a comprehensive list of changes between SMAC and SMAX
2. Organize them into categories, I'm thinking Settings changes (everything changeable by just text or image files), Code changes (everything that needs .exe coding), and Acceptable changes (changes which are agreed upon as purely positive, such as bug fixes). kryub is worried about not having close enough replication, so I'd be happy for him to have to personally approve any item on the acceptable changes list.
3. Once we have the list and a rough idea of what needs changing to turn SMAX into SMAC, figure out how granular we want to make the reversion (how many control alphax variables to add). Also (at the same time or before) decide how granular the AI changes should be (figure out how many of the changes are best made optional with alphax and how to group them, since yitzi has concerns about some weakening the AI in modded games which would be best made optional). I'd guess there's quite a lot of debate to have at this stage.
4. Build the thing.
5. Celebrate!
6. Have everyone working on one patch and everything nice and compatible, so we all get lots of shiny toys to play with (SMACers get bugfixes and lots more modding options, SMAXers get an awesome new updated AI).

Edit: To expand on build it: the alphax side is probably simple enough, the coding side depends on how many things need changing for it to feel right which we'll know when we have a list. At that point you guys will know much better how hard the different changes will be to implement and figure out how to organize that side.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 01:39:49 AM

I have Buncle powers, and can call nerdz from the vasty tubes.  ;)

ete's a great organizer - I suggest listening to him...

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 01:52:11 AM

Good suggestions, ete. I like the process that you outlined.

I started that process informally in the specifications document. I looked at the broader changes. I also confirmed the landmarks and supply pod topics, so the list of those is accurate. So, in terms of organizing, what system do you want to use? There are plenty of options out there, so we can use one that is comfortable to a group of you. Everything in the design document can be copied elsewhere easily.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 02:00:12 AM

Quote from: ete on April 25, 2014, 01:36:01 AM

since yitzi has concerns about some weakening the AI in modded games which would be best made optional

Alternatively, they could be taught to read the modding, and adjust strategies accordingly.  I think they already do this for many of the designer-made modding options.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 02:19:17 AM

Quote from: BUncle on April 25, 2014, 12:52:03 AM

We have an IRC channel dealy under the Chat button at the top of the page for live conversation, if needed.  Naturally, I think the more done in public posts right here, the better...  I could set up a special category in Downloads for file sharing, if that's workable...

I support discussions and contributions being public. However, forum threads can be cumbersome, and the longer they get, the more difficult they are to engage with for someone new. My focus with any community projects I get involved with is making sure that cohesiveness can be maintained while being inclusive. A possible combination could be AC2 wiki, site-based chat, forum threads, and a downloads section sub-category could work.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 02:24:02 AM

It would definitely be good for the project if everyone was kept well-informed here on the forum.  This idea is obviously of interest to everyone, and you never know what useful skillset will wander by at any stage.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 02:36:02 AM

Absolutely. I'm cautious about the mediums we use to communicate is because I want people to transition into the project easily. Trying to discern a project from forum threads, due to lack of a good sticky–at minimum, is a bad standard in the mod communities of so many games. I don't know anyone here, so I'm interested in casting the net wide for talent. I agree with you, BUncle, that there seems to be plenty of tools within this website.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 02:42:09 AM

Gah... Just wasted an hour until I figured out what was wrong.
Tried launching SMAC/X from a java app and it kept on failing.  Finally figured out that I needed to set the working directory to the SMAC folder. grrrrr....

Ok.  For the mod launcher what behavior do you guys want it to have?
Currently, I'm thinking of making it really simple.

I'll have it create a mods folder
Inside the mods folders there will be folders for mods
The launcher will have a copy of unaltered SMAC/SMAX files located in a "backup" folder.
Each time you launch, the launcher will see if the files in the smac directory is the same as in the mods folder/s the player has chosen.  If not, it will copy the files that are different and then launch the game.

Do you guys see any flaws with this idea?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 02:43:47 AM

A SMAC for SMAX mod would of course be made in the mods folder. :-D

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2014, 02:55:01 AM

Stickied thread is easy enough - just ask when you're ready.  A big multi-person project might well need a dedicated subforum, (at least for the duration) which I could do in minutes.  No sweat.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 03:41:56 AM

Quote from: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 02:42:09 AM

Gah... Just wasted an hour until I figured out what was wrong.
Tried launching SMAC/X from a java app and it kept on failing.  Finally figured out that I needed to set the working directory to the SMAC folder. grrrrr....

Ok.  For the mod launcher what behavior do you guys want it to have?
Currently, I'm thinking of making it really simple.

I'll have it create a mods folder
Inside the mods folders there will be folders for mods
The launcher will have a copy of unaltered SMAC/SMAX files located in a "backup" folder.
Each time you launch, the launcher will see if the files in the smac directory is the same as in the mods folder/s the player has chosen.  If not, it will copy the files that are different and then launch the game.

Do you guys see any flaws with this idea?

Make sure you remember to copy back afterward.  Also, if not, it should copy the current to the "backup", so that it doesn't lose any changes that have been made to the default.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Kilkakon on April 25, 2014, 04:35:54 AM

Guys :D

I removed Spore Launchers in LE by just copy/pasting the unit definition for Mind Worms over the top. You could do the same thing for the Ogres as well (say make them a rover). They couldn't be repaired but it would be a lot closer. :D

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 04:39:30 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on April 25, 2014, 04:35:54 AM

Guys :D

I removed Spore Launchers in LE by just copy/pasting the unit definition for Mind Worms over the top. You could do the same thing for the Ogres as well (say make them a rover). They couldn't be repaired but it would be a lot closer. :D

How about making them alien artifacts?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 10:06:35 AM

About where to run the project (partly replying to diessa's PM):

I'm thinking collecting the list up may be best done purely in forum thread, using a sticky which both kyrub and yitzi can edit (maybe me too?). Probably easiest to do this in bugs&reports, with the thread posted by me if kyrub also gets editing power, or by kyrub if he declines editing power. This reduces fragmentation which is helpful for everyone. Second step could be wiki or the same forum thread, with the main advantage of wiki being version control. Both of these steps could be done on google docs or etherpad or something if the .exe guys prefer. Third is probably best done in two discussion threads, one by kyrub (what ai changes there are, how to make sure they can be set to not weaken mod AI) one by yitzi (how to split up the reversions by alphax changes).

I don't think this needs a new forum is needed when it'll probably only ever have a handful of threads, may as well put it in an existing active forum and encourage people to jump in.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: kyrub on April 25, 2014, 11:00:44 AM

I don't need any editing power and I will keep my job in one thread, as ete suggests. My focus, if possible, is "AI only" and technical stuff with Yitzi of "how AI connects with customization". I am afraid we cannot promise miracles here, since customization is not very friendly with good AI; let's say an improvement is possible.
Staying on these forums is quite preferable, we want this community and this place to grow.


(A small warning, I am not very good at keeping long time responsibilities in "hobbies", such as disassembling. I work in short intensive spells, interspersed by months of inactivity (e.g. activity in real life)... but then again, the work is usually done at the end)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 25, 2014, 11:14:38 AM

Quote from: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 04:39:30 AM

How about making them alien artifacts?

You then have AA's that need to be engaged before becoming yours.

Best thing (if the target is to come as close to SMAC as possible) is to adjust the 3 ogre lines to native life, preferably locusts ot perhaps mind worms. No IoD's, since the ogres likely get spawned only on land pods.
Sealurks could be switched to IoD's, they're both sea units so the game will spawn them on suitable tiles. And Spore Launchers to Mind Worms as well.
Perhaps a solution for the Fungal Towers is to change them to a missile unit of sorts. They'll 'detonate' themself then the turn they're spawned because of their hardcoded immobility.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 11:41:52 AM

Quote from: kyrub on April 25, 2014, 11:00:44 AM

I don't need any editing power and I will keep my job in one thread, as ete suggests. My focus, if possible, is "AI only" and technical stuff with Yitzi of "how AI connects with customization". I am afraid we cannot promise miracles here, since customization is not very friendly with good AI; let's say an improvement is possible.
Staying on these forums is quite preferable, we want this community and this place to grow.


(A small warning, I am not very good at keeping long time responsibilities in "hobbies", such as disassembling. I work in short intensive spells, interspersed by months of inactivity (e.g. activity in real life)... but then again, the work is usually done at the end)

Okay, in that case I'll start a thread in bugs&patches where yitzi can edit to collect up all the changes later today. And fair about bursts of activity, I tend to do exactly the same thing (BU, do you remember my warning about this when you first got me on here?). So long as it ends up being something you come back to every once and a while and the bursts are intense enough the result is good :)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 11:43:02 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on April 25, 2014, 04:35:54 AM

Guys :D

I removed Spore Launchers in LE by just copy/pasting the unit definition for Mind Worms over the top.

And a great idea that was too.

Quote from: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 04:39:30 AM

How about making them alien artifacts?

Good idea; it'd still increase the prevalence of alien artifacts (though not by very much, as ogres are rare), but would be a minimal change.

Quote from: Geo on April 25, 2014, 11:14:38 AM

You then have AA's that need to be engaged before becoming yours.

???  Ogres from pods need to be attacked before becoming yours?  I thought that you get them directly from the pod, just like artifacts.

Quote

Perhaps a solution for the Fungal Towers is to change them to a missile unit of sorts. They'll 'detonate' themself then the turn they're spawned because of their hardcoded immobility.

Doesn't even have to be missile, needlejets would work too.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: thorn on April 25, 2014, 12:04:56 PM

A very interesting topic that has made me think. I started playing SMAX when it came out (but only with the original 7) and never went back to SMAC. I've always thought that SMAX was an odd, out of place expansion. The aliens and new factions didn't make any sense to me in the established AC story. It was like Firaxis just wanted to make an expansion to add more factions and shoe horned them in without much thought to plot (are you listening Jar Jar Abrams?).
I've always thought that if I went back to SMAC after playing SMAX I would be missing too much (for some reason I love the borehole cluster). Now I'm not so sure after reading this thread and  the Alpha Centauri wikia entry on Alien Crossfire (http://sidmeiersalphacentauri.wikia.com/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alien_Crossfire). I must go back and try a game of SMAC!

Great post diessa!

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Geo on April 25, 2014, 12:21:10 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 11:43:02 AM

???  Ogres from pods need to be attacked before becoming yours?  I thought that you get them directly from the pod, just like artifacts.

Ah, my mistake. Must have mixed up with the Fungal Tower slot or Mind Worm slot.

Quote from: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 11:43:02 AM

Doesn't even have to be missile, needlejets would work too.

Yeah, but more chance a player sees 'something weird' since needles are around 2 turns instead of one.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on April 25, 2014, 12:37:58 PM

Quote from: Geo on April 25, 2014, 12:21:10 PM

Yeah, but more chance a player sees 'something weird' since needles are around 2 turns instead of one.

Point.  So missile is the best choice, then.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 12:56:17 PM

Okay, changelist thread is up: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8428.new#new (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8428.new#new)

Please post anything that's been missed there.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 01:49:35 PM

Edit: nevermind, post incorrect. Thanks, ete, for putting the changelist together.
Edit: Thanks, Thorn, for your post. I'm glad that you were encouraged to (ex)explore the original!

Some early roles have been established in the project, so let me know if you need anything from me. Until then, I'll ask questions, respond to posts, and be available to assist where asked.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 02:38:11 PM

Any help collecting up differences and testing things would be good (like: what exactly happens when you make fungal towers into missiles? use omniscient view.).

I'm in india currently, so my internet is.. sometimes spectacularly unstable or just not there for a week, depending on location. It's possible someone else will need to take over editing the changelist, and if I'm not responding to suggestions for more than a few days feel free to step up.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 03:11:18 PM

SMAX added sea terraforming options. Are some of these unbalanced? Could some of these have kyrub's AI patches applied to them? Should they be kept in some form?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 25, 2014, 05:00:30 PM

I think this is a good idea. It would be nice to consolidate the community and bugfixing efforts on one game. It would also help other modding efforts if we had one standard game.

@Ford_Prefect:
That sounds like the standard way to do mod managers (which isn't a bad thing), but you may be able to save some effort by using someone else's implementation. e.g. http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/Miscellaneous/Generic-Mod-Enabler.shtml (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/Miscellaneous/Generic-Mod-Enabler.shtml)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 05:48:40 PM

Quote from: diessa on April 25, 2014, 03:11:18 PM

SMAX added sea terraforming options. Are some of these unbalanced? Could some of these have kyrub's AI patches applied to them? Should they be kept in some form?

Really? I thought the sea options were always there, there's nothing beyond kelp/mine platform/tidal harness in SMAX. They did add the ability to start a faction in water which comes with a +1 min bonus on shelf squares, but I thought seaforming existed back in SMAC.

And no, nothing sea-based is unbalanced as far as I'm aware. Useful sometimes, but the high cost of sea formers and sea colony pods holds back their potential until fusion, and at that tech level you either have or will soon have great land forming options like tree farms, boreholes and condensers.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 06:08:08 PM

Smac had sea transforming.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 25, 2014, 06:09:35 PM

I think I'm misinformed. I remember reading about new terraforming features added for the sea (e.g., sea bunkers), but those must've not been released. I'll try to confirm in a more concrete way. If it is just the original sea forming options, then that's awesome!

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 25, 2014, 06:11:32 PM

Sea bunkers and sensor buoys plus a few others can be enabled by alphax editing in both games.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 06:12:19 PM

Quote from: DrazharLn on April 25, 2014, 05:00:30 PM

@Ford_Prefect:
That sounds like the standard way to do mod managers (which isn't a bad thing), but you may be able to save some effort by using someone else's implementation. e.g. http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/Miscellaneous/Generic-Mod-Enabler.shtml (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/Miscellaneous/Generic-Mod-Enabler.shtml)

Heh.  I've almost got the mod manager alpha test ready (I just need to get it to move and hash the files).  I should have it working by tonight (unless my job keeps me working late).

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 25, 2014, 06:25:35 PM

@Ford_Prefect:
Good to hear. Could you upload the source to github or something with a FOSS licence? That way it's easy to maintain it (if changes ever need to be made) and there's an open source project available for the next time someone wants a mod manager.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 25, 2014, 10:59:34 PM

Quote from: DrazharLn on April 25, 2014, 06:25:35 PM

@Ford_Prefect:
Good to hear. Could you upload the source to github or something with a FOSS licence? That way it's easy to maintain it (if changes ever need to be made) and there's an open source project available for the next time someone wants a mod manager.

That's the plan!  It's what I did for the cvrColorizer.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 25, 2014, 11:24:12 PM

Thanks :)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 26, 2014, 02:32:51 AM

Work lasted allot longer than I planned.

Modding tool won't be finished today and tomorrow I will be very busy with work as well.

Status of Mod Manager:
* Can launch SMAC and SMAX
* GUI interface is done
* Can view a selection of mods
* A backup copy is made.

All that is left is actually selecting mod/s and having it figure out which files need to be replaced.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 26, 2014, 11:20:52 AM

Is it practical to keep the "real" (non mod or backup) SMAC directory composed entirely of sym or hardlinks? I just tried with .lnk files, and that didn't work correctly, but proper links should, and java has an interface for them. Reading online, I'm getting the feeling that windows only supports symlinks for directories and that files have to be hardlinked, which is a bit of a pain.

Anyway, would save some disk I/O, maybe not worth it.

Java link API: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/io/links.html

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 26, 2014, 12:41:21 PM

Sounds great Ford :).

@DrazharLn: I doubt performance of any kind if much of a concern, any modern computer should be fine.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 26, 2014, 02:22:12 PM

I've finished a first version of a mod manager for SMACX that hardlinks all the files in using only batch files. At the moment, it'll only work on Windows Vista or newer, but I know how to change it for XP.

Source and instructions later today (and probably the fixed-for-xp version).

Won't work on mac or linux, but replicating the batch scripts in bash wouldn't be hard.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 26, 2014, 05:22:38 PM

IT WORKS!

 :D

All that is left is allowing the user to change mod priority and looking for bugs.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 26, 2014, 09:08:00 PM

Here's a version written in batch script. Should work fine on Windows XP or higher. Maybe even on older versions.

To use it, extract all the files to your (preferably unmodded) alpha centauri directory (mine is C:\GOG Games\Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri\), then double click on install.bat. Your files may momentarily disappear as I move them into a subdirectory, then they should come back.

To mod, put a directory containing all the appropriate files into <Your Install Folder>\_mod_manager and add the name of the directory to order.txt. Yitzi's 2.5, 2.5e, kyrub's mods are included as examples.

More detailed instructions in modman_readme.txt

The manager is very simple, so you can check the code yourself to check I'm not doing anything malicious. It has no dependencies other than the windows environment.

If you want something prettier, you might want to check out Ford_Prefect's launcher.

Edit: v1.3 uploaded (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8413.msg47453#msg47453)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 27, 2014, 02:20:03 AM

Don't use v1 of my manager!

Uploaded with a bug that may delete all your SMAC folder. Realised quickly but internet went down.

Fixed version once I get non mobile internet back.

Edit: Well, wouldn't delete your whole folder except in fairly unusual circumstance, but it wasn't backing up the existing files properly.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 27, 2014, 03:48:40 AM

My mod manager is now out in alpha form.
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.0)

Currently requires python to run.  I plan to work on fixing some of its rough edges before release an exe for it.  Please report any bugs or issues you find with it.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 27, 2014, 01:21:23 PM

Fixed my mod manager up (making it much safer) and made it slightly friendlier. I've tested it much more thoroughly this time, but you should still consider this beta software and treat it with care (i.e. make a backup of your save files, don't blame me if your computer explodes).

Install files attached.  Read modman_readme.txt for more information including the easy install steps.

If you do use it, I'd appreciate it if you left a post or PMd me just to let me know.

Features:
* No dependencies
* Pretty fast
* Uses links rather than copy, so saves disk space and I/O calls
* Compatible with Windows XP or later (Tested on win7 only, but written with older systems in mind)
* Easy to install
* Easy to configure (edit a text file and run manage.bat)
* Implements a recursive depth-first directory tree pruning algorithm in batch
* Documents a few arcane batch tricks

Anti-features:
* Won't work on GNU/Linux or Mac OSX (maybe under WINE?)
* No GUI
* Source code is in batch, so it's slightly cryptic (commented quite thoroughly, though).

This manager is not intended to compete with Ford_Prefect's. It's just an alternative that was moderately enjoyable to write. Please use whichever you prefer, but bear in mind that Ford's is prettier and probably more maintainable and extensible (python is a much better language than batch).

The structure of the mod folders look mostly the same, too. Only difference is Ford uses ..\backup and I use _original. To switch between the two mod managers, all you'd need to do is move a few folders around.

As someone publishing mods, you can publish the same mod folder for both managers and for people patching manually.

Total size of my code is ~9KB. Download is larger because it includes the latest versions of kyrub and yitzi's patches for example purposes.

@Ford,
Will you be using something like pyinstaller to make a self contained binary? I'm interested to know how small it would be.

Also, how are you detecting changes in the mod directories/backup directory? I was considering either hashing the whole folder and using that or maintaining a hash per file (would allow only updating the changed files), but batch doesn't have a builtin hash function (and making and deleting links is pretty cheap anyway).

If you want to use links, by the way, I think you have to use hardlinks. SMAC doesn't seem to like symlinks.

edit: Removed attachment. Going to push v1.4 in a short while.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 27, 2014, 03:50:20 PM

My mod manger is a little stupid.  Here is the basic process of it applying the mods.

Create a dictionary of the file locations in ./backup
Replace any definitions in the dictionary with the location files in the ./mods/* folders
Replace any file in the SMAC/X folder whose modified time does not equal the files listed in the dictionary.

Should work pretty well unless someone modifies a file and somehow doesn't effect its modified time.  That should hopefully be rare.
If there is a mod that has that problem, then I have a "Force" update button which copies all the files listed in the dictionary.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on April 27, 2014, 07:55:08 PM

> Replace any file in the SMAC/X folder whose modified time does not equal the files listed in the dictionary.

Surely this means save files and so on that the user makes that are also in the backup dir will be clobbered?

My method is to move everything in the game directory into $gamedir/modman/_original at install time. I also install manage.bat and order.txt into modman/.

Each time manage.bat is called it:
* deletes every link in the game directory that matches a known link in an enabled mod
* prunes the directory tree so that any directory that is empty or only contains empty directories is deleted (this preserves the user's non-mod files while removing empty directories)
* builds the directory structure for each enabled mod in $gamedir
* links in every file for each enabled mod

If it encounters a non-link file in the first step that it wants to delete (if the user has replaced the alphax.txt link with a real file or smac overwrites a map file included in from a mod, for example), the program exits and tells the user to move the file into a (new) mod directory, rename it, delete it or delete or move the copy in the mod directory.

To avoid problems with the user running the installer on a smac directory with saves present, I move the saves directory back up to the game directory (out of _original).

SMAC also writes to Alpha Centauri.Ini and log.txt each time it's run. With my manager that's ok as it writes to the existing file and that feeds through to the mod*, but with yours you'll be overwriting them each time you run your launcher (because the timestamps will be different).

* Arguably not the best behaviour?

Anyway, I'm off for the evening. Uploaded is the latest version. Actually quite pleased with it.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on April 27, 2014, 08:25:47 PM

Quote from: DrazharLn on April 27, 2014, 07:55:08 PM

> Replace any file in the SMAC/X folder whose modified time does not equal the files listed in the dictionary.

Surely this means save files and so on that the user makes that are also in the backup dir will be clobbered?

Nope.  I have an exclude list that excludes the settings, saves, dlls, tmp, etc.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 28, 2014, 02:59:27 PM

Thanks for your posting on your respective launchers, DrazharLn and Ford_Perfect.

Quote from: ete on April 25, 2014, 06:11:32 PM

Sea bunkers and sensor buoys plus a few others can be enabled by alphax editing in both games.

Should those options be enabled in the "original" version or just the "hybrid" version?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: ete on April 28, 2014, 03:56:28 PM

Neither by default, they are not meant to be part of the game. Players of both can enable them if they wish.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on April 28, 2014, 08:52:04 PM

I agree. I think that we have enough of a baseline to establish the pattern for how we deal with things that are part of the game, such as the landmarks added through patches and code added in alpha.txt, but aren't necessarily part of the original.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Impaler on May 01, 2014, 02:11:12 AM

I also dislike the atmosphere of SMACX (Aliens and silly human factions distract or are redundant with the Magnificent 7 Originals).  I largely strip these factions out of my SMACX games while keeping most of the new facility/SP goodies, and I have a heavily edited Tech Tree that removes all reference to Progenitors or Resonance.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Kilkakon on May 01, 2014, 03:02:24 PM

Be aware that "sensor bouys" only benefit nearby land units.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on May 03, 2014, 02:15:10 PM

I just released a new version of my mod manager.  Now it handles administrator privileges better and will remember which mods you had applied the last time you used it.

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.0)

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on May 04, 2014, 03:42:41 AM

Ok.  Newer version of the mod manger is now out.  There is an exe version of it included now and I fixed the bug of it crashing for first time users.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 04, 2014, 03:43:57 AM

Nothing for Downloads? :(

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on May 04, 2014, 03:51:04 AM

I'm willing to put it up on the downloads page (currently its attached to my post http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.0)) once I know it is relatively bug free.  So I'm hoping someone else will try it out and provide feedback.  Also, I just noticed the python to exe converter included tkinter's demo folder ??? ....   so I can make the final download smaller.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 04, 2014, 03:53:02 AM

Okay.  I'm just concerned that offsite storage isn't going to draw people to the community.  A README mentioning here w/ URL would be nice.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Ford_Prefect on May 04, 2014, 04:03:13 AM

Ummm... its currently stored on the forum.   :-\  Just not on the downloads page.  I did update the github page with a link to the forum.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 04, 2014, 04:22:27 AM

Coo! ;b;

Sorry; I have to worry about things like that.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on May 04, 2014, 02:54:21 PM

Github has excellent version control. It is a great choice! That said, perhaps you could link to this website and our ongoing discussions? That might bring more feedback and people to the site.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on May 04, 2014, 04:49:37 PM

@diessa,
Ford has already linked back here.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: diessa on May 05, 2014, 02:44:08 PM

That's good. I was more-so writing that post to bridge between BUncle's post and using a third party site. Thanks for confirming, though.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 17, 2014, 04:34:38 AM

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8703.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8703.0)

Been a little quiet on this front.  Any developments to announce, anyone?

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on May 17, 2014, 09:07:16 AM

Mod managers are done. Text file editing (alphax.txt, helpx.txt, conceptsx.txt, Script.txt, tutor.txt) is done. File moving is done (maps and opening movie needed renaming).

As I said in the other thread:

Quote from: DrazharLn on April 30, 2014, 04:17:52 AM

I went ahead and modified tutor.txt to remove the Spore Launchers entry. It's now an almost-replicant of the mind worm entry. I also removed all the references to the alien factions while I was there.

If the community could pick a new set of factions to bundle with this and if someone could investigate when the bt<native lifeform>.pcx and <native lifeform>_sm.pcx files are used and if the spore launcher ones need removing, then we're very almost done with things that can be done outside the binaries.

For the friendly .exe modders, these are the most useful new alphax features for this project in order of importance:
Switch to disable sealurks/fungal towers/spore launchers being spawned or appearing in pods
Switch to disable ogres appearing in pods
Switch to disable the cloning event
Switch to disable Unity Crash Site
Switches to disable the other landmarks

To make things a bit neater, it would be good if either we had a way to stop custom units appearing in the datalinks and/or if you could make disabled native life and ogres not appear in the datalinks (I've tried and I don't think this can be done from text files)

The mod is basically done, just needs the above .exe modding and then the AI patches ported across.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 17, 2014, 03:19:26 PM

That's going to be quite a job for someone, probably Yitzi, who won't get to it soon, alas.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on August 19, 2015, 03:27:54 AM

In version 3.4 of Yitzi's patch, Yitzi added support to toggle most new engine features (and some non-engine features) introduced by SMAX. Making the SMAC in SMAX mod is now possible and easy.

I'm pretty sure I have the files I need to finish it off fairly quickly (modified techtree, help files, etc) on my home computer, but I can't upload them (again? I can't find them already uploaded here) until ~26th August.

I'll have time to finish the mod up properly and package for Ford's manager around mid September, if no one has done it by then.

Title: Re: SMAC within SMAX
Post by: DrazharLn on May 05, 2016, 02:19:22 PM

Released! http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=17869.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=17869.0)