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Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Buster's Uncle on March 24, 2014, 12:20:15 AM

Title: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 24, 2014, 12:20:15 AM
Quote
Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
The Daily Beast
By Karl W. Giberson  20 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/iUR7A2TTHG2JTu4Yr25x2A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTkwO3B5b2ZmPTA7cT03NTt3PTEzNQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/TheDailyBeast/1395517056613.cached.jpg)



The “Big Bang” theory of the origin of the universe got a big boost this week when scientists reported the discovery of 14-billion-year-old echoes of the universe’s first moments—the first proof of an expanding universe, and the last piece of Einstein’s general theory of relativity.

Creationists and other conservative religious believers have a curiously ambivalent relationship with the Big Bang—unlike evolution, which is universally condemned. Young-earth creationists mock the Big Bang as a wild guess, an anti-biblical fantasy that only atheists determined to ignore evidence of God’s creation could have invented. In contrast, creationists who accept that the earth is old—by making the “days” of creation in Genesis into long epochs—actually claim that the Big Bang is in the Bible. Some of them are rejoicing in the recent discovery.

The leading evangelical anti-science organization is Answers in Genesis (AIG), headed by Ken Ham, the guy who recentlydebated Bill Nye. AIG’s dismissive response to the discovery is breathtaking in its hubris and lack of insight into how science works. They call for Christians to reject the discovery because the “announcement may be improperly understood and reported.” This all-purpose response would also allow one to deny that there is a missing Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777.

Secondly, Answers in Genesis complains that the predictions being confirmed in the discovery are “model-dependent.” They fail to note that every scientific prediction ever confirmed, from the discovery of Neptune, to DNA, to the Ambulecetus transitional fossil is “model-dependent.” The whole point of deriving predictions in science is to test models, hypotheses, theories. Finally, AIG suggests that “other mechanisms could mimic the signal,” implying that, although the startling prediction was derived from Einstein’s theory of general relativity and the inflationary model of the Big Bang, it could have come from “some other physical mechanism.” No alternative mechanism is suggested.

The AIG response declares instead that “Biblical creationists know from Scripture that the universe did not begin in a big bang … we know from Genesis 1 that God made the earth before He made the stars, but the big bang requires that many stars existed for billions of years before the earth did.”

Not all biblical literalists take such a hard-line stance. Like Ham, the popular Christian apologist Hugh Ross is a biblical literalist who rejects all forms of evolution: Ross believes that the “days” of creation in Genesis are vast epochs and thus the universe can be billions of years old. Ross heads the organization Reasons to Believe, which is often ++attacked by AIG++ and other young earth creationist groups for having a “liberal” view of the Bible. (http://creation.com/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross (http://creation.com/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross))

Ross, an astronomer by training, was delighted by the discovery of the gravitational waves and told the Christian Post that “The Bible was the first to predict big bang cosmology.” Ross, in fact, is convinced that many ideas in modern science—including the inflationary model for the Big Bang confirmed by the recent discovery—were actually predicted by the Bible. He argues—to the dismay of Hebrew scholars—that the word “bara,” translated “create” in Genesis 1:1, means “to bring into existence that which did not exist before.” Ross has ingeniously located much of modern physics in the Bible, including the laws of thermodynamics and the Big Bang.

The initial response from the Discovery Institute, the headquarters of the Intelligent Design (ID) movement, maligned the motivations of the cosmologists searching for the gravity wave, claiming they found more theologically friendly models of the Big Bang “disturbing,” and wanted to refute them. The recent discovery of the gravity waves—after years of searching—is being trumpeted by the scientific community because it “saves the jobs of a thousand people at two national labs who are having to justify their expensive failure.

Despite his organization’s snarky cynicism, the Discovery Institute’s director, bestselling ID author Stephen Meyer, was in the this-new-discovery-proves-the-Bible camp. Meyer went on the John Ankerberg show to extol the theological virtues of the Big Bang. Using the same arguments as Hugh Ross, Meyer finds both the Big Bang and even the inflation model in the Bible: “We find repeated in the Old Testament, both in the prophets and the Psalms,” he told the Christian Post, “that God is stretching or has stretched out the heavens.” Meyer says this “stretching” means that “Space expanded very rapidly,” and the recent discovery provided “additional evidence supporting that inflation.”

Meyer and Ross are right that English translations of the Bible do speak of the heavens being “stretched out.” But to suggest that this is what has been confirmed by the recent discovery is simply not possible. A typical biblical passage supporting this claim is found in Isaiah 40:22 where we read that God “stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.” Does this really sound like an event at the beginning of time when the universe experienced a momentary burst of expansion? And what do we make of the apocalyptic vision described in Revelation 6:14 that, at the end of time, “the sky rolled back like a scroll”?

The biblical authors—and most ancients—understood the sky over their heads to be a solid dome—an inverted bowl resting on a flat earth for the authors of Genesis, a crystalline sphere surrounding a round earth for Aristotle and most Christians until the scientific revolution. The Hebrew word used in Genesis for the sky is “raqia” which means “bowl” or “dome.” It does not mean “space-time continuum” and it is not something that could be “inflated.” It could, however, be “stretched out like a tent” or “rolled back like a scroll.” These divergent responses are full of hubris in both directions, making extravagant claims for or against scientific discovery, embracing or rejecting science on the basis of existing religious commitments. But these extremes aren’t the only ways for religious believers to respond to major scientific breakthroughs. Not every scientific idea has to have a theological interpretation, although the tendency to fit new science into ancient religious frameworks is often irresistible. And the Big Bang is certainly no exception.

The Big Bang theory, in fact, was developed in the 1920s by a Catholic priest who was also an acclaimed physicist, the Monsignor Georges Lemaître. It was ridiculed and rejected by Lemaître’s atheist colleague, Fred Hoyle. Hoyle applied the derisive term “Big Bang” to Lemaître’s theory in a 1949 BBC interview—a nasty label that stuck.

Hoyle, who labored heroically to produce an alternative theory, didn’t like the theological implications of the universe beginning suddenly in a moment of “creation.” It sounded too much like the first verse in the Bible: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” And, as Hoyle and others noted, Lemaître was a priest who might reasonably be suspected of trying to smuggle Catholic theology into science.

Hoyle’s concern was amply illustrated in 1951 when Pope Pius XII declared that, in discovering the Big Bang, science had indeed established the Christian doctrine of the “contingency of the universe” and identified the “epoch when the world came forth from the hands of the Creator.” “Creation took place,” the pope said. “Therefore, there is a creator. Therefore, God exists!”

Both Lemaître and the Vatican’s science advisor were horrified by the Pope’s confident assertion that physics had proven God. They warned him privately that he was shaky ground: the Big Bang was not a theory about the ultimate origin of the universe and should not be enlisted in support of the Christian belief in a Creator. The pope never mentioned it again.

Ironically, in this dispute, the atheist Hoyle was on the side of the pope in seeing a linkage between the Big Bang and God. It was Lemaître and the pope’s science advisors who saw clearly that scientific theories, no matter how well-established, should not be enlisted in support of theological notions. And, as the Catholic Church learned in the Galileo affair, scientific theories should not be opposed on theological or biblical grounds.

These lessons have been learned by Catholics, for the most part, as evidenced by the relative scarcity of prominent Catholic science-deniers. Unfortunately, we cannot say the same things for many evangelical Protestants, many of whom belong to truncated religious traditions that began after Galileo, or even after John F. Kennedy. They lack the accumulated wisdom that restrains the pope from inspecting every new scientific discovery and either rejecting it because it counters a particular interpretation of Genesis or enthusiastically endorsing it because it confirms this or that doctrine. And when the pope strays, his advisors quickly get him back on track. Catholic thinking on science is informed by the pontifical academy of science, an advisory group with no counterpart in Protestantism.

Ken Ham and his colleagues at Answers in Genesis, Hugh Ross and his colleagues at Reasons to Believe, and Stephen Meyer and his colleagues at the Discovery Institute are too quick to embrace, reject, or gloss with theological meaning the latest scientific discoveries. Rather than rushing to the Bible to see whether its ancient pages can accommodate the latest science, they would do well to heed this caution from Lemaître, as he spoke of the theory that he discovered:

“We may speak of this event as of a beginning. I do not say a creation … Any preexistence of the universe has a metaphysical character. Physically, everything happens as if the theoretical zero was really a beginning. The question if it was really a beginning or rather a creation, something started from nothing, is a philosophical question which cannot be settled by physical or astronomical considerations.”
http://news.yahoo.com/big-bang-bible-040000314--politics.html (http://news.yahoo.com/big-bang-bible-040000314--politics.html)

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Comments, gentlemen?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on March 24, 2014, 02:00:09 AM
Quote
"The question if it was really a beginning or rather a creation, something started from nothing, is a philosophical question which cannot be settled by physical or astronomical considerations.”
Being a theophile, a creationist, and a science-minded person, this much I can agree with.
The dogmatic statements by the folks at AiG, RtB, and DI are far from anything I've been taught.
I was not taught these things "from infancy," either. I was a 14-year-old cynical realist heading into High School to learn the Sciences in order to silence the questions in my own mind. I learned that science right alongside my scriptural studies, and find no reason the two cannot coexist in my brain.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on March 24, 2014, 03:55:48 AM
Scientists like Hoyle certainly had an initial bias against the BB as steady-state had been the default position of Astronomy for ages, the sky has always been more or less changeless so this was considered the rational 'default' position.

The real acceptance of the BB among scientists was NOT driven by the CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background) as is often proclaimed, it fits the BB theory well but it is just black-body radiation, a whole variety of theories might spit out something similar so it on it's own proves nothing.  The real kicker was Type Ia super-Nova light-curve time dilation, aka distant events appear to be stretched over time in a way that can only conceivable be the result of the expansion of space, and the BB theory is really just the straightforward backwards extrapolation of that expansion of space back to a point when everything is on-top of itself. 

The slight similarity to biblical stories was not in my opinion relevant to the scientific consensus around the BB theory, though it dose explain some of the difference in vitriol directed at the theory vs Evolution, should scientific consensus ever move back to a steady-state model you would see an increase in vitriol directed as astronomy, but still probably not equal to what evolution gets as that theory is by nature so much more visceral in it's implications for the average lay person or religious zealot.  On a related note the theories of Sigmund Freud are in a way even MORE visceral as they deal without our mind/soul, it is said that while Darwin showed that we are descended from animals, Freud showed that we behave like animals.  In a way Freud attacks the very idea of the soul which is very close to home for lots of people.  A lot of the vitriol against evolution is actually a rejection of Freud because Darwin and Freud being so close in time become mingled in the Victorian mind and this commingling has been handed down to us.  When people attack evolution they are mostly defending the belief in the soul and the nobility of the human mind.


But their is a problem with the BB theory itself, other objects at great distance are NOT showing time-dilation, the pulsation rate of Quasars have never shown it and this has been a lingered problem for decades, which was bad enough.  But then a few years back extremely brief but extremely distant gamma-ray bursts were discovered and these were also without any time-dilation.

If space is really expanding the time-dilation fingerprint MUST be on everything but 2 out of 3 tests are coming back negative, and the Quasars and Gamma-ray bursts are FAR more distant then observable Super Novas, they should be hugely dilated.  Our observed SN's are fairly close and are only dilated about 40% more then normal which is really not that much when dealing with a star as stars normally vary by many orders of magnitude in size and energy output.  We would need to be absolutely certain that these events are perfectly similar in brightness and duration to conclude that time-dilation is occurring. 

The Chandera limit theory provided such a basis for this belief as it describes the mass at which a white-dwarf star will implode and then explode under it's own weight, but it is a brutal simplification in which rotation and magnetic fields are ignored.  Account for thouse variables and a star can be considerably above the limit and possibly slightly below it, also the merger of two stars is likely able to create a huge range of explosion sizes.  Now IF the duration of these explosions correlates with their size, which models do predict, then it would be very easy for us in the search for very distant Super Novas to preferentially or only find the brightest ones, and these being longer in duration would APPEAR to be dilated in a fairly linear relationship with distance.

And low and behold he have in fact observed SN that are nearby (such that no dilation should be happening) which are in fact dilated, SN 2001ay was a good example of this.  So the standard-candle nature of these SN's is quite in doubt and should further observation invalidate the time-dilation of SN's the BB theory will immediately collapse.  I think this is actually rather likely in the next few decades as further study of SN's continues and better telescopes see further and give a larger sample size.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 24, 2014, 04:11:51 AM
I've never seen any explanation/rational for the assumption if the Standard Candle for supernovas, and I fancy I've a good grasp of that sort of astronomical thingy.

The phenomena you describe makes me wonder about the interpretation of relatively local observations - since dark matter is bull -it is- there must be something we don't understand about how gravity works on a galactic scale...
Title: Confirming the Big Bang's Inflation: Q&A with Study Leader John Kovac
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2014, 10:28:29 PM
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Confirming the Big Bang's Inflation: Q&A with Study Leader John Kovac
SPACE.com
by Mike Wall, Senior Writer  10 hours ago


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/0yf3HNlpc3tC1CJZ76nXsQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTI2MztweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Confirming_the_Big_Bang%27s_Inflation-1e0555fabe05e1b2ef611d265f745996)
The tiny temperature fluctuations of the cosmic microwave background (shown here as color) trace primordial density fluctuations in the early universe that seeded the later growth of galaxies



On Monday (March 17), a team of astronomers sent a jolt through the physics and cosmology communities and made front-page news around the world.

The researchers, led by John Kovac of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, announced that they had detected a type of polarization called "B-modes" in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), the ancient light that began saturating the universe just 380,000 years after the Big Bang.

The B-modes could only have been produced by gravitational waves a few tiny fractions of a second after the Big Bang, during a period called "inflation" which saw the universe expand from mere quantum fluctuations to something of macroscopic size, scientists say.

If it holds up — and most astronomers seem to think it will — the discovery opens a new window onto a realm of extreme physics and gives astronomers a much better understanding of the Big Bang and its immediate aftermath.

Space.com caught up with Kovac recently to talk about the big find, its implications and what the discovery means to him and his team on a personal level.


Space.com: What does this mean for astronomy and cosmology? What's the biggest implication of this find?

John Kovac: Well, the B-mode signature in the CMB at the angular scales — angular scales from 1 to 5 degrees, that is — is widely regarded as the "smoking gun" signature of inflation. It's the unique prediction of inflation that we wouldn't expect to be there in the universe, according to any alternative theory. It's fundamentally built into the paradigm of inflation itself, this prediction.

So, having seen a signal with our telescopes, and very clearly, and with high signal to noise, that appears to match that prediction exactly — this is by far the most direct evidence that the universe has apparently offered us that inflation is in fact correct.


Space.com: How sure are you about the B-mode detection? Is there any other explanation, or is this pretty much a slam dunk?

Kovac: The paper describes the statistical confidence of the measurement, and it is between five and seven sigma. That is extremely significant; the signal to noise is very high.

We have for years pored over this dataset and done all kinds of internal consistency checks, and that high signal to noise allows us to slice up our data in many ways and confirm that the signal that we see is seen consistently in all parts of the data. That allows us to rule out many possible instrumental effects that one might worry about.

So we've done that very carefully, and we're very confident that the signal that we're seeing is real and it's on the sky. This is probably a direct image of gravitational waves across the sky, showing us the early universe.


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/AIomp5euwirs8DbaN7zaKA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQzMTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Confirming_the_Big_Bang%27s_Inflation-3108c89a57a85bb9d203fdaf53dbdbb1)
John Kovac, of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, in front of the Keck Array (right) and BICEP2 telescope (left), with the South Pole Telescope in the background (far left).


The possibility that a B-mode pattern in the polarization is produced by something other than inflation or gravitational waves is of course something that we can't rule out absolutely, but we explore the possibilities in our paper.

The possibility that the B-mode signal that we're seeing is produced by a pattern of polarized dust in our own galaxy, for example, is a possibility that many people consider and are rightly concerned about. And we'll say that the data that we've got right now disfavor that explanation through multiple lines of reasoning.

So we believe that by far the most likely explanation is that it is the B-mode signature from inflation, a direct image of the gravitational waves that are predicted by inflation.

It's going to be controversial. We can expect that people will try to shoot at it from every direction, and we invite that — that's the scientific process, and it'll be fun and interesting.


Space.com: So this detection is a smoking gun for inflation. But does it also tell us about how the inflation process occurred?

Kovac: Yes, it does. There are many details, many models of inflation. But the basics of the inflationary paradigm are well-established and are universal. One of them is that the amplitude of these gravitational waves directly corresponds to how fast the universe was inflating at the time those cosmological scales were projected out of the horizon during this early process. And how fast the universe was inflating directly tells you at what energy inflation was happening.

The scale that we are probing with our experiment, the scale at which we have detected this signal, corresponds to what has long been understood to be the predicted energy scale at which grand unified theories operate, and unify the strong, the weak and the electromagnetic force all together. So those are energies of 10^16 GeV or so, gigaelectron volts. That has long been a popular choice for imagining what is the likely energy scale of inflation, broadly speaking.

So an implication of seeing gravitational waves at the strength that we've seen them is that, yes, in fact, that is the energy scale of inflation. And another thing that is an important aspect of this that is quite fundamental is that the production of these gravitational waves during the inflationary process relies on the interaction of quantum mechanics and general relativity. It actually relies on there being gravitons, the gravitational field being quantized. And that is something of which we'd had no prior direct evidence.


Space.com: So the existence of gravitons is now on solid ground as well?

Kovac: Well, if gravity were not quantized somehow — and I think everybody assumes that it must be, or we don't really understand physics at all — but if it were not quantized, then you would not expect this background of gravitational waves from inflation.

So it's usually a starting assumption that is built into all of these theories of inflation, but it's not something to take for granted, either. This is a point that has been highlighted by some physicists recently — that many cosmologists take this point for granted, but it is quite fundamental.


Space.com: This discovery will doubtless inspire many other projects. What do you hope future experiments will do, or what do you expect them to do?

Kovac: There are many experiments out there that are already very actively looking for this B-mode signal from inflation, so I'm sure it will not be long before there is follow-up, from us and from others — including from the [European Space Agency's] Planck satellite, we hope. And that follow-up will broaden the coverage and the information we have about this signal to multiple frequencies and a larger fraction of the sky, and in the process we'll be learning more about the inflationary process.

As we cover a broader range of angular scales, we'll actually be tracking the evolution of inflation, the evolution of the energy scale as inflation unfolds. And that's a very exciting prospect.


Space.com: On a personal note, how does it feel to be the leader of the team that makes such a potentially monumental discovery?

Kovac: It's extremely exciting — many people on our team have worked for many years on this result. But we are all at this point focused on doing the most careful and correct job that we can of explaining our measurements to the scientific community, because we understand how important this is. We know that what we have is potentially very, very exciting in its implications.


Space.com: Finally, what have the last few days been like for you? And were you surprised that the results made such a big splash around the world, or were you prepared to become a sort of science rock star?

Kovac: Well, I must say that we appreciated how the importance of our results and their potential bearing on fundamental physics — we expected there would be news, but not this level; the response has been quite overwhelming. I'm exhausted, but it makes me appreciate (again) just how universal is our interest in the really big questions.

Andrew Lange, my mentor at Caltech and a great leader of these experiments who, sadly, passed away four years ago, used to inspire people about the potential of science by posing the question, "How far can we see?" I expect he would say now that it's apparent the answer is much farther back than we once dared imagine was possible. That has captured a lot of people's imagination.
http://news.yahoo.com/confirming-big-bangs-inflation-q-study-leader-john-121047123.html (http://news.yahoo.com/confirming-big-bangs-inflation-q-study-leader-john-121047123.html)

...

On the other end of the size spectrum, I should mention that all those weird effects they can't explain in quantum mechanics?  The six missing spatial dimensions from string theory.  I always heard they were very small dimensions...
Title: NASA says it may have new evidence of the seeds of black holes
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 27, 2014, 04:27:44 AM
Quote
NASA says it may have new evidence of the seeds of black holes
The Sideshow
By Eric Pfeiffer  4 hours ago


(http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/news/2014-03-26/7b518000-b540-11e3-b847-131dde6ba3b5_pia17997-cr.jpg)
The red dot in the center of this image taken from the NGC 4395 galaxy may be a supermassive black hole. (NASA/JPL-Caltech)



NASA says it may have found evidence of the seeds of black holes, pointing to the origins of the universe itself.

New information from the Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) has revealed that supermassive black holes are located even in so-called dwarf galaxies. The finding is significant, because the standard belief is that black holes were formed when galaxies collided, forming larger celestial bodies.

"Our findings suggest the original seeds of supermassive black holes are quite massive themselves," said George Mason University’s Shobita Satyapal, lead author of the new study. The paper was published in the latest issue of Astrophysical Journal.

The use of infrared technology allows WISE to pick up details that other telescopes couldn’t otherwise detect through traditional visible light sources that are unable to penetrate through the thick layers of dust that occupy parts of deep space.

"Though it will take more research to confirm whether the dwarf galaxies are indeed dominated by actively feeding black holes, this is exactly what WISE was designed to do: find interesting objects that stand out from the pack," NASA astronomer Daniel Stern, who did not participate in the study, said.

Black holes remain an ongoing source of mystery and speculation in the scientific community. Most smaller galaxies observed by NASA are described as “bulgeless," meaning they do not appear to possess a cluster of stars near the galaxy's center. But the infrared data gathered by WISE indicates that there may actually be giant black holes existing at the center of these smaller galaxies.

For years, scientists have worked to confirm the existence of smaller, intermediate black holes. While those smaller black holes remain elusive, it has been assumed by some that they must have existed at some point before becoming the supermassive black holes we are more familiar with today.

But Satyapal says the WISE findings could mean that supermassive black holes have been around since the earliest days of the universe itself, approximately 15 billion years ago. As the universe itself has expanded over time, the black holes have also theoretically grown.

"We still don't know how the monstrous black holes that reside in galaxy centers formed," Satyapal said. "But finding big black holes in tiny galaxies shows us that big black holes must somehow have been created in the early universe, before galaxies collided with other galaxies."

Other scientists have theorized that  exploding stars may be creating infant, intermediate black holes on a regular basis. As those newborn black holes consume gas from within their host galaxy, they would continue to grow over time. And the very existence of black holes, at least as we currently understand them, was  recently brought into question by Stephen Hawking.

The WISE telescope was recently put back into service by NASA as part of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory’s ongoing efforts to detect near-Earth objects, that is,  asteroids that potentially pose a threat to Earth.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/nasa-says-it-may-have-discovered-the-seeds-of-black-holes-235047309.html (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/nasa-says-it-may-have-discovered-the-seeds-of-black-holes-235047309.html)

...

Of course early universe masscons were the seeds of early galaxies, and of course they collapsed into black holes...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 31, 2014, 04:35:22 AM


The phenomena you describe makes me wonder about the interpretation of relatively local observations - since dark matter is bull -it is- there must be something we don't understand about how gravity works on a galactic scale...

Maybe you should write an article about that for The Onion. :D
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2014, 05:20:02 AM
How much they pay me to pretend I don't believe what I'm saying?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 31, 2014, 06:31:53 AM
I have no clue.

Of course a link on their site to yours might be worth something to you.

"Dark Matter Discovered in the Constellation Taurus"
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2014, 06:33:35 AM
Cosmologists Admit: Dark Matter So Much "Dark Matter"
Title: April's Fool
Post by: Geo on March 31, 2014, 06:36:59 PM
"Dark Matter Discovered in the Constellation Taurus"

Cosmologists Admit: Dark Matter So Much "Dark Matter"

What are you guys talking about? It isn't April yet...
Title: Re: April's Fool
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 31, 2014, 11:40:13 PM
"Dark Matter Discovered in the Constellation Taurus"


Cosmologists Admit: Dark Matter So Much "Dark Matter"


What are you guys talking about? It isn't April yet...


You joke and tease so much that it's hard to know when you are being serious.

Supposing that you are-

The Onion  http://www.theonion.com/ (http://www.theonion.com/)  is a website that is dedicated to news parody. Sometimes it is too subtle and taken seriously, which is even funnier.

IF I UNDERSTAND HIM CORRECTLY, Buncle suggests that dark matter is scientific crap designed to disguise scientific ignorance as authority with regard to gravity.  Something along the lines of "the ether" and "the humors" which scientists and doctors believed in during the 1700s.

I suggest that he should write a funny pseudo-article about it.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2014, 12:00:25 AM
You left out "Phlogiston" and "The Spheres". ;)  I don't doubt the sincerity of anyone's belief about "Dark Matter" - but it does smell to me of serious error - Great Embarrassing Boners of Science History serious.  Occam's Razor and all that.

I probably speak cosmology/astrophysics more than well enough for a science reporter, so I DO like the idea.  It would be sweet to break into getting paid to write bullcrap for The Onion, and make money out of my journalism studies for the first time in 22 years...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Valka on April 01, 2014, 01:21:05 AM
Quote
Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
The Daily Beast
By Karl W. Giberson  20 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/iUR7A2TTHG2JTu4Yr25x2A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTkwO3B5b2ZmPTA7cT03NTt3PTEzNQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/TheDailyBeast/1395517056613.cached.jpg)



The “Big Bang” theory of the origin of the universe got a big boost this week when scientists reported the discovery of 14-billion-year-old echoes of the universe’s first moments—the first proof of an expanding universe, and the last piece of Einstein’s general theory of relativity.

Creationists and other conservative religious believers have a curiously ambivalent relationship with the Big Bang—unlike evolution, which is universally condemned. Young-earth creationists mock the Big Bang as a wild guess, an anti-biblical fantasy that only atheists determined to ignore evidence of God’s creation could have invented. In contrast, creationists who accept that the earth is old—by making the “days” of creation in Genesis into long epochs—actually claim that the Big Bang is in the Bible. Some of them are rejoicing in the recent discovery.

The leading evangelical anti-science organization is Answers in Genesis (AIG), headed by Ken Ham, the guy who recentlydebated Bill Nye. AIG’s dismissive response to the discovery is breathtaking in its hubris and lack of insight into how science works. They call for Christians to reject the discovery because the “announcement may be improperly understood and reported.” This all-purpose response would also allow one to deny that there is a missing Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777.

Secondly, Answers in Genesis complains that the predictions being confirmed in the discovery are “model-dependent.” They fail to note that every scientific prediction ever confirmed, from the discovery of Neptune, to DNA, to the Ambulecetus transitional fossil is “model-dependent.” The whole point of deriving predictions in science is to test models, hypotheses, theories. Finally, AIG suggests that “other mechanisms could mimic the signal,” implying that, although the startling prediction was derived from Einstein’s theory of general relativity and the inflationary model of the Big Bang, it could have come from “some other physical mechanism.” No alternative mechanism is suggested.

The AIG response declares instead that “Biblical creationists know from Scripture that the universe did not begin in a big bang … we know from Genesis 1 that God made the earth before He made the stars, but the big bang requires that many stars existed for billions of years before the earth did.”

Not all biblical literalists take such a hard-line stance. Like Ham, the popular Christian apologist Hugh Ross is a biblical literalist who rejects all forms of evolution: Ross believes that the “days” of creation in Genesis are vast epochs and thus the universe can be billions of years old. Ross heads the organization Reasons to Believe, which is often ++attacked by AIG++ and other young earth creationist groups for having a “liberal” view of the Bible. (http://creation.com/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross (http://creation.com/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross))

Ross, an astronomer by training, was delighted by the discovery of the gravitational waves and told the Christian Post that “The Bible was the first to predict big bang cosmology.” Ross, in fact, is convinced that many ideas in modern science—including the inflationary model for the Big Bang confirmed by the recent discovery—were actually predicted by the Bible. He argues—to the dismay of Hebrew scholars—that the word “bara,” translated “create” in Genesis 1:1, means “to bring into existence that which did not exist before.” Ross has ingeniously located much of modern physics in the Bible, including the laws of thermodynamics and the Big Bang.

The initial response from the Discovery Institute, the headquarters of the Intelligent Design (ID) movement, maligned the motivations of the cosmologists searching for the gravity wave, claiming they found more theologically friendly models of the Big Bang “disturbing,” and wanted to refute them. The recent discovery of the gravity waves—after years of searching—is being trumpeted by the scientific community because it “saves the jobs of a thousand people at two national labs who are having to justify their expensive failure.

Despite his organization’s snarky cynicism, the Discovery Institute’s director, bestselling ID author Stephen Meyer, was in the this-new-discovery-proves-the-Bible camp. Meyer went on the John Ankerberg show to extol the theological virtues of the Big Bang. Using the same arguments as Hugh Ross, Meyer finds both the Big Bang and even the inflation model in the Bible: “We find repeated in the Old Testament, both in the prophets and the Psalms,” he told the Christian Post, “that God is stretching or has stretched out the heavens.” Meyer says this “stretching” means that “Space expanded very rapidly,” and the recent discovery provided “additional evidence supporting that inflation.”

Meyer and Ross are right that English translations of the Bible do speak of the heavens being “stretched out.” But to suggest that this is what has been confirmed by the recent discovery is simply not possible. A typical biblical passage supporting this claim is found in Isaiah 40:22 where we read that God “stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.” Does this really sound like an event at the beginning of time when the universe experienced a momentary burst of expansion? And what do we make of the apocalyptic vision described in Revelation 6:14 that, at the end of time, “the sky rolled back like a scroll”?

The biblical authors—and most ancients—understood the sky over their heads to be a solid dome—an inverted bowl resting on a flat earth for the authors of Genesis, a crystalline sphere surrounding a round earth for Aristotle and most Christians until the scientific revolution. The Hebrew word used in Genesis for the sky is “raqia” which means “bowl” or “dome.” It does not mean “space-time continuum” and it is not something that could be “inflated.” It could, however, be “stretched out like a tent” or “rolled back like a scroll.” These divergent responses are full of hubris in both directions, making extravagant claims for or against scientific discovery, embracing or rejecting science on the basis of existing religious commitments. But these extremes aren’t the only ways for religious believers to respond to major scientific breakthroughs. Not every scientific idea has to have a theological interpretation, although the tendency to fit new science into ancient religious frameworks is often irresistible. And the Big Bang is certainly no exception.

The Big Bang theory, in fact, was developed in the 1920s by a Catholic priest who was also an acclaimed physicist, the Monsignor Georges Lemaître. It was ridiculed and rejected by Lemaître’s atheist colleague, Fred Hoyle. Hoyle applied the derisive term “Big Bang” to Lemaître’s theory in a 1949 BBC interview—a nasty label that stuck.

Hoyle, who labored heroically to produce an alternative theory, didn’t like the theological implications of the universe beginning suddenly in a moment of “creation.” It sounded too much like the first verse in the Bible: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” And, as Hoyle and others noted, Lemaître was a priest who might reasonably be suspected of trying to smuggle Catholic theology into science.

Hoyle’s concern was amply illustrated in 1951 when Pope Pius XII declared that, in discovering the Big Bang, science had indeed established the Christian doctrine of the “contingency of the universe” and identified the “epoch when the world came forth from the hands of the Creator.” “Creation took place,” the pope said. “Therefore, there is a creator. Therefore, God exists!”

Both Lemaître and the Vatican’s science advisor were horrified by the Pope’s confident assertion that physics had proven God. They warned him privately that he was shaky ground: the Big Bang was not a theory about the ultimate origin of the universe and should not be enlisted in support of the Christian belief in a Creator. The pope never mentioned it again.

Ironically, in this dispute, the atheist Hoyle was on the side of the pope in seeing a linkage between the Big Bang and God. It was Lemaître and the pope’s science advisors who saw clearly that scientific theories, no matter how well-established, should not be enlisted in support of theological notions. And, as the Catholic Church learned in the Galileo affair, scientific theories should not be opposed on theological or biblical grounds.

These lessons have been learned by Catholics, for the most part, as evidenced by the relative scarcity of prominent Catholic science-deniers. Unfortunately, we cannot say the same things for many evangelical Protestants, many of whom belong to truncated religious traditions that began after Galileo, or even after John F. Kennedy. They lack the accumulated wisdom that restrains the pope from inspecting every new scientific discovery and either rejecting it because it counters a particular interpretation of Genesis or enthusiastically endorsing it because it confirms this or that doctrine. And when the pope strays, his advisors quickly get him back on track. Catholic thinking on science is informed by the pontifical academy of science, an advisory group with no counterpart in Protestantism.

Ken Ham and his colleagues at Answers in Genesis, Hugh Ross and his colleagues at Reasons to Believe, and Stephen Meyer and his colleagues at the Discovery Institute are too quick to embrace, reject, or gloss with theological meaning the latest scientific discoveries. Rather than rushing to the Bible to see whether its ancient pages can accommodate the latest science, they would do well to heed this caution from Lemaître, as he spoke of the theory that he discovered:

“We may speak of this event as of a beginning. I do not say a creation … Any preexistence of the universe has a metaphysical character. Physically, everything happens as if the theoretical zero was really a beginning. The question if it was really a beginning or rather a creation, something started from nothing, is a philosophical question which cannot be settled by physical or astronomical considerations.”
http://news.yahoo.com/big-bang-bible-040000314--politics.html (http://news.yahoo.com/big-bang-bible-040000314--politics.html)

...

Comments, gentlemen?

*ahem* And ladies, too...

Quote
we know from Genesis 1 that God made the earth before He made the stars, but the big bang requires that many stars existed for billions of years before the earth did.

And the problem with that is...?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2014, 01:25:06 AM
...And Ladies, too. 

Been on gaming forums too long.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Valka on April 01, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
I still post once in awhile on CFC. The other female OT regulars seem to have all vanished, though.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2014, 01:58:25 AM
That is the way of it too often, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on April 01, 2014, 02:15:33 AM
Quote
"we know from Genesis 1 that God made the earth before He made the stars"

Not so.

Genesis plainly states:
Quote
1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

All the various "heavenly bodies" were made along with the earth.

Quote
2.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The earth was dark; nothing was visible on it or from it.

Quote
3.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

From the standpoint of an observer on the earth, light shone upon it. The earth's features became visible, as at dawn.

Quote
14.  And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15.  And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16.  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17.  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18.  And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

From the earth the sun and moon and stars became visible as distinct bodies in the sky.
Title: Does Dark Energy Spring From the 'Quantum Vacuum?'
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2014, 04:25:40 AM
Quote
Does Dark Energy Spring From the 'Quantum Vacuum?'
SPACE.com
by Mike Wall, Senior Writer  13 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/__jGXl76tpritclFYsXgRA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM1OTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Does_Dark_Energy_Spring_From-2f5997edd2fae3fc77439115b3a53913)
Observations of Planck and other satellites help to solve the equation of the state of dark energy.



The mysterious dark energy that's driving the universe's accelerated expansion may have its roots in the background "vacuum energy" that pervades all of the cosmos, a new study suggests.

"What we think is happening is a dynamic effect of the quantum vacuum, a parameter that we can calculate," co-author Joan Sola, of the University of Barcelona in Spain, said in a statement. "Nothing is more 'full' than the quantum vacuum since it is full of fluctuations that contribute fundamentally to the values that we observe and measure."

Though dark energy constitutes about 75 percent of the universe, scientists don't know exactly what it is. They've developed several different ideas, including the theory of "quintessence," which proposes a sort of anti-gravitating agent that repels rather than attracts.

Another concept posits the existence of a "phantom field" whose density continues to increase with time. This theory predicts an accelerating expansion so powerful that it will eventually break apart the bonds that hold atoms together, tearing the universe apart in a "Big Rip" about 20 billion years from now.

The quintessence and phantom field hypotheses are based partly on data gathered by NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) and the European Space Agency's Planck satellite— spacecraft that have studied the cosmic microwave background, the ancient light that began saturating the universe 380,000 years after the Big Bang.

In the new study, Sola and lead author Spyros Basilakos of the Academy of Athens in Greece analyze the same spacecraft observations and find less support for either quintessence or the phantom field idea.

"Our theoretical study demonstrates that the equation of the state of dark energy can simulate a quintessence field, or even a phantom field, without being one in reality," Sola said. "Thus, when we see these effects in the observations from WMAP, Planck and other instruments, what we are seeing is a mirage."

Basilakos and Sola instead suggest that dark energy is a type of dynamic quantum vacuum energy — something different than Einstein's cosmological constant, which describes a static vacuum energy density and is another possible explanation of dark energy's nature.

Basilakos and Sola acknowledge there are some issues with the quantum vacuum energy theory but say it's a promising idea.

"However, quintessence and phantom fields are still more problematic; therefore the explanation based on the dynamic quantum vacuum could be the more simple and natural one," Sola said.
http://news.yahoo.com/does-dark-energy-spring-quantum-vacuum-130628574.html (http://news.yahoo.com/does-dark-energy-spring-quantum-vacuum-130628574.html)

...

[sniffs]  What's that I smell?  -Oh.  Somebody been talkin' crap.  It dark all right, but I don' think it energy.

Behind all this vacuum energy talk is the Casimir effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect).  In short, it has been observed that two plates suspended molecular distances apart are strongly pushed together.  It is theorized that it is the action of -- oh, just read the Wikipedia article and hope you can wade through the jargon.  I can't stomach repeating such nonsense.

I am not some crank who is always assuming science and scientists are wrong; it's just that "dark" ANYthing in cosmology is a bugbear of mine.  I cannot say that I have made any in-depth study of the Casimir effect - like that Wikipedia entry, it's a little rare to find anything about it in English; and I say that as someone with an excellent vocabulary and general grasp of scientific principals.

I just think there's got to be a better explanation for the phenomenon that they haven't considered/eliminated yet.  Zero Point energy just as well have dark in the name for all the sense it make to me.  It is -sorry Impaler- WAY too Steady State universe for my blood.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Valka on April 01, 2014, 05:17:08 AM
Since nobody's certain of what dark energy really is (although Star Trek authors have come up with novels full of technobabble on the subject), just think of it as the physicist's equivalent of "Terra Incognita" or "Here Be Dragons."

Somebody will figure it out eventually.


Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2014, 05:32:45 AM
The Wikipedia article does mention someone asserting
Quote
Relativistic van der Waals force[edit]

Alternatively, a 2005 paper by Robert Jaffe of MIT states that "Casimir effects can be formulated and Casimir forces can be computed without reference to zero-point energies. They are relativistic, quantum forces between charges and currents. The Casimir force (per unit area) between parallel plates vanishes as alpha, the fine structure constant, goes to zero, and the standard result, which appears to be independent of alpha, corresponds to the alpha → infinity limit," and that "The Casimir force is simply the (relativistic, retarded) van der Waals force between the metal plates."[15]
Which describes exactly what I was thinking, only researched and articulated in well thought-out Scientific, as opposed to my vague notion.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2014, 07:16:02 PM
(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/MXgGPCsvL.tcGKd3x9goDg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTE4NztweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz02MDA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ucomics.com/dt140401.gif)
Title: Does Antimatter Fall Up or Down? New Device May Tell
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2014, 10:36:44 PM
Does Antimatter Fall Up or Down? New Device May Tell
LiveScience.com
By Charles Q. Choi, Live Science Contributor  6 hours ago


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Kzrl4Ynb6QG59RqFbpStsw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTc0NDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/LiveScience.com/antimatter-particles.jpg1364224866)
Antimatter refers to sub-atomic particles that have properties opposite normal sub-atomic particles.



The mystery of whether antimatter falls up or down could be solved with a new experiment to weigh matter's odd cousin, researchers say.

Antimatter is identical to normal matter in some respects but the exact opposite in others. For instance, although the antiproton has the same mass as its counterpart the proton, it is negatively charged instead of positively charged.

When a particle meets its antiparticle, they annihilate each other, giving off a burst of energy — a proof of Einstein's famous equation, E=mc2, which revealed mass can be converted to energy and vice versa. A gram of antimatter annihilating a gram of matter would release about twice the energy as the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima. (Have no fear of antimatter bombs popping up anytime soon — researchers are very far from creating anywhere near a gram of antimatter.)

Scientists have long wondered if antimatter falls down, responding the same way to gravity as ordinary matter. Physicists have generally assumed it does, but many have kept an open mind regarding antimatter's behavior since much about it remains a mystery.

"We don't really understand antimatter," study author Holger Müller, a physicist at the University of California at Berkeley, told Live Science. "For instance, the fundamental laws of physics suggest there should be equal amounts of matter and antimatter in the universe, but our observations tell us there is vastly more matter than antimatter in the universe, and there is no agreed-upon explanation for that."

In addition, there is much about gravity that remains uncertain. For instance, astronomers looking at how galaxies rotate discovered there is far more gravity holding them together than there should be, "which is usually ascribed to gravity from dark matter, but nobody knows what that is," Müller said.

Direct evidence of whether or not antimatter falls downward remains difficult to experimentally gather. Antimatter is rare, and annihilates when it comes into contact with regular matter.

"The combination of antimatter and gravity has never been directly experimentally tested before," Müller said. "There are indirect observations others have obtained, but the very simple experiment of letting a chunk of antimatter drop and seeing what happens has never been done."

Now researchers have proposed a device they suggest could help solve the mystery of whether antimatter falls up or down.

"We don't understand 100 percent about antimatter, and the same is true for how gravity works, so looking at them in combination seems a good spot to look for a new discovery in physics," Müller said.

The instrument, a light-pulse atom interferometer, could measure the behavior of any particle — atoms, electrons and protons, as well as their antimatter counterparts. It works by studying cold particles — ones cooled to a degree above the coldest possible temperature, absolute zero.

At such cold temperatures, scientists can see particles behaving much like waves, rippling up and down within a chamber. By analyzing how these "matter waves" interfere with each other, the researchers can distinguish the force of gravity each particle is experiencing.

Müller and his colleaguesare working to construct their device and integrate into the ALPHA experiment at the CERN physics lab in Geneva, Switzerland, which makes, captures and studies atoms of anti-hydrogen, the antimatter counterpart of the simplest atom, hydrogen.

"Currently the production rate of anti-hydrogen at CERN is four atoms per hour, or an atom every 15 minutes," Müller said. "This production rate currently cannot be sustained 24-7, so 300 anti-hydrogen atoms a month or so is all we can hope for right now."

Since the researchers have very few anti-hydrogen atoms for experiments, their system essentially "recycles" each atom. Magnetic fields trap the atoms so the device can potentially measure the way each atom behaves multiple times.

"We need to get a signal out of each and every single atom — we can't afford to lose a single one," Müller said.

The scientists expect their system will reach an initial accuracy of better than 1 percent for measuring how anti-hydrogen falls, and they noted they could eventually improve this accuracy 10,000-fold.

The scientists detailed their findings online March 25 in the journal Physical Review Letters.


http://news.yahoo.com/does-antimatter-fall-down-device-may-tell-144324040.html (http://news.yahoo.com/does-antimatter-fall-down-device-may-tell-144324040.html)
Title: How a Medieval Philosopher Dreamed Up the 'Multiverse'
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 02, 2014, 08:29:57 PM
How a Medieval Philosopher Dreamed Up the 'Multiverse'
SPACE.com
by Katia Moskvitch, SPACE.com Contributor  7 hours ago


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/N2qjH3oEsssi8h.ikDBegQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTczNjtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/How_a_Medieval_Philosopher_Dreamed-53d516e6c7ce1dfc5bb8d39aa6aca081)
The universe as envisioned in Goussin de Metz' "L'image Du Monde," published in 1245. Bibliothèque Nationale de France, Fr.14964, fol. 117 (reproduced with permission).



The idea that our universe may be just one among many out there has intrigued modern cosmologists for some time. But it looks like this "multiverse" concept might actually have appeared, albeit unintentionally, back in the Middle Ages.

When scientists analyzed a 13th-century Latin text and applied modern mathematics to it, they found hints that the English philosopher who wrote it in 1225 was already toying with concepts similar to the multiverse.

The study, published on the pre-print server Arxiv and accepted by the Proceedings of the Royal Society A, has brought together two traditionally quite separate subjects: cosmology and history.

"The results give us a much deeper appreciation of science in the 13th century," said one of the lead authors of the study, physicist Richard Bower of Durham University in the United Kingdom. "From a scientist's perspective, I find I had previously completely underestimated the depth of logical argument in the Middle Ages."

The international team first translated the original Latin text — called De Luce, which means "On Light," and written by a philosopher named Robert Grosseteste — into English.

Grosseteste was "one of the most dazzling minds of his generation, lauded by his successors as a mathematical genius, theologian, politician and church leader; he was the bishop of Lincoln from 1235-53," said the principal investigator of the research, medieval historian Giles Gasper of Durham University.

The scientists then tried to understand what Grosseteste was aiming to explain, and wrote down his ideas as if they were modern mathematical equations. The team used a computer to solve these equations, and to see whether they explained the universe as Grosseteste imagined it.


Concentric spheres

In Grosseteste's time, the dominant cosmological model was the one developed mainly by the Greek philosopher Aristotle. He postulated that there were nine planets (called spheres), one inside the other, with planet Earth at the center.

In De Luce, Grosseteste assumed that the universe was born from an explosion that pushed everything, matter and light, out from a single point — an idea that is strikingly similar to the modern Big Bang theory.

At first, wrote the philosopher, matter and light were linked together. But the rapid expansion eventually led to a "perfect state," with light-matter crystallizing and forming the outermost sphere — the so-called "firmament" — of the medieval cosmos.

The crystalized matter, Grosseteste assumed, also radiated a special kind of light, which he called lumen. It radiated inward, gathering up the "imperfect" matter it encountered and piling it up in front, similar to the way shock waves propagate in a supernova explosion.

This left behind "perfect" matter that crystallized into another sphere, embedded within the first and also radiating lumen. Eventually, in the center, the remaining imperfect matter formed the core of all the spheres — the Earth.

After they ran a computer simulation using modern equations, the researchers found that the universe imagined by Grosseteste indeed could have formed exactly the way he described it.

"Amazingly, the computer simulation shows that Grosseteste's description is accurate," Bower said.

However, Grosseteste's reasoning only works if there is the right number of properly ordered celestial spheres — and this only happens in the simulations if there are very specific starting points.

"On their own, Grosseteste's laws aren't enough to produce the universe he thought he lived in," Bower said.

The medieval philosopher realized this problem, too. To deal with it, he added an extra reason to explain why there were "exactly nine celestial spheres plus one, an 'imperfect' Earth," Bower said.


Today's physics

Grosseteste's explanation was remarkably similar to the reasoning applied in modern cosmology. Today, the laws of general relativity and quantum mechanics are used to explain the origin of the cosmos, but they do not tell us the amounts of normal matter, dark matter and dark energy in the universe.

"To explain this, cosmologists often appeal to some new theory, such as a super-symmetry theory, for example," Bower said.

In other words, current models work for only certain specific values, and if the values are chosen at random, the explanation fails. So to satisfy these conditions, some physicists suggest that we, in fact, live in a multiverse — that there is not one universe, but an infinite number of them. In this way, any outcome can be accounted for, if not in ours, then in a neighboring universe.

In the same way, if the parameters in Grosseteste's model are modified, there will be a different number of spheres around the Earth.

And although De Luce never mentions the term "multiverse," Bower said that Grosseteste "seems to realize that the model does not predict a unique solution, and that there are many possible outcomes. He needs to pick out one universe from all the possibilities."

"Robert Grosseteste works in a very similar way to a modern cosmologist, suggesting physical laws based on observations of the world around him, and he then uses these laws to understand how the universe formed," Bower said.

Although Grosseteste's description of the origin of the cosmos is not accurate and not based on modern physics, his theory makes sense, and — when one accepts Grosseteste's initial assertions — it is "a logical argument that a modern physicist would be proud of," Bower added.

"Personally, it reminds me that in future centuries, a new generation of physicists will look back at how we understand the universe today, and think, 'How could they not see that?'" Bower said. "Modern cosmology is a grasping towards a more complete understanding of creation, but we do not yet see the full picture."

The study was funded by the UK's Arts and Humanities Research Council, and is described in more detail on the team's Ordered Universe blog (http://ordered-universe.com (http://ordered-universe.com)).


http://news.yahoo.com/medieval-philosopher-dreamed-multiverse-115848565.html (http://news.yahoo.com/medieval-philosopher-dreamed-multiverse-115848565.html)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on April 06, 2014, 04:25:47 AM
The anti-matter gravity experiment is one I've heard of before (I thought it would be done by now).  It would indeed be mind-blowing if anti-matter was anti-gravitational too.  Though their would be a strange kind of symmetry.

The Electra-magnetic force is characterized by 2 charges which are like-repulsive and unlike-attractive.  If matter attracts matter and mater repels anti-matter then it will be safe to assume that anti-matter attracts antimatter (we would need StarTrek quantities of anti-matter to directly test it's self gravitating effects).   This would mean gravity is like-attractive and unlike-repulsive, the exact inverse of EM.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2014, 12:44:10 AM
It would close off the anomaly of gravity among the fundamental forces - no known anti-force/repulsive effect.  That seeming lack offends one's sense of symmetry and proper order, somehow...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2014, 04:33:13 PM
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/cosmologist_on_a_tire_swing.png)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on April 07, 2014, 07:26:37 PM
Mmm... how about this? The expansion doesn't accelerate (with distance), but time itself, and since we're positioned within, it looks like the expansion accelerates.
Which could mean, that the timescale told in the Bible is closer to 'reality' then mere mortals could perceive. ;cute

 ;hippy
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2014, 07:47:33 PM
That's close to what Yitzi has posited, and has elements of what I suspect.  What if inside each black hole is a micro universe, that seems in no way micro from that POV?  What would the relative size and position of everything look like to beings evolved for the environment?  Has anyone wrapped their head around it or thought of at least an approach to the math?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2014, 07:49:36 PM
And leaving out the (distracting) black hole/microverse part, is it just possible that universal expansion is really a POV issue?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on April 07, 2014, 07:53:47 PM
And leaving out the (distracting) black hole/microverse part, is it just possible that universal expansion is really a POV issue?

We're talking Quantum here. AFAIT, anything's possible then.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2014, 07:58:03 PM
And again, I suspect the six missing spatial dimensions from string theory have something to do with virtually all the quantum effects we can't yet understand.

Maybe.
Title: Exploring Dark Energy
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 14, 2014, 12:12:16 AM
Exploring Dark Energy
The Daily Beast
By Matthew R. Francis  8 hours ago


(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Y.uBiL_LEzKqZwUq1cC1zg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTkwO3B5b2ZmPTA7cT03NTt3PTEzNQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/TheDailyBeast/1397399093631.cached.jpg)



The Universe is expanding—the space between galaxies is growing larger all the time. Not only that, but the rate of expansion is getting faster, a phenomenon we call “dark energy.” Right now, we don’t know what dark energy is, but thanks to detailed astronomical observations, we’re getting a better idea of how it behaves.

One of those observations is BOSS: the Baryon Oscillation Spectroscopic Survey. Baryon oscillation is basically sound waves in the early Universe. (Ordinary matter particles, like atoms, are perversely known as “baryons” to people who study the Universe.) BOSS studies those sound waves by mapping the positions and distances to huge numbers of galaxies, stretching back as far in time as possible. The oscillations, in turn, are a way to measure the structure and expansion rate of the cosmos, providing a detailed look at dark energy.

Last week, BOSS researchers revealed they had mapped 164,000 galaxies an average of 11 billion light-years away. One light-year is the distance light travels in a year, so light left these galaxies when the Universe was less than 3 billion years old—about 20 percent of its current age of 13.8 billion years. Those are early galaxies, providing a beautiful map of the cosmos in the old days.

So what does this have to do with cosmic acceleration?

First, “dark energy” is a lame-ass name. For one thing, it sounds like it has to do “dark matter,” but they are almost complete opposites. The only things they have in common: they’re both invisible, and we don’t know what either of them really is. (I’ll write a piece about dark matter soon—stay tuned!)

Dark matter is the invisible mass holding galaxies together and shaping the distribution of stuff on the biggest scales. Except for the “invisible” bit, it mostly acts like atoms and other ordinary matter: it helps keep things together by gravitational attraction. Dark energy, on the other hand, pushes everything apart. As the Universe expands, dark energy makes the speed of expansion get bigger, while a cosmos with only dark matter in it would slow down. From what we can tell, the total amount of dark energy seems to increase as the Universe expands. It’s a feedback cycle: the more expansion we have, the more dark energy; the more dark energy, the faster the Universe grows.

We want to know if dark energy has always been this way, or if it has changed over history—and if it will stay the same forever. We’re also curious about whether dark energy pushes expansion the same way everywhere in the Universe, or if it’s stronger some places than others. Those are important mysteries: they tell us about the nature of dark energy, but also inform us about how our Universe began, and what its future will be like.

If dark energy will be the same in billions of years as it seems to be today, the future will be dark and empty, as galaxies continue to move apart from each other at ever-faster rates. If dark energy comes and goes, though, maybe the rate of expansion will slow down again. All of this is a long time from now—trillions of years after the death of the Sun—but we might see hints about it today. We hope to see signs of what is to come by looking at how dark energy behaves now, and how it has acted in the past. Similarly, if dark energy is stronger in some parts of the cosmos, then certain pockets of the Universe would grow faster than in others. That also has implications for how the future cosmos looks.

And that’s where BOSS comes in. If dark energy was different in the past, then galaxies in the early cosmos would be closer together (for less dark energy) or farther apart (for more). And if the effect of acceleration was stronger in some patches than others, that would mean less or more clumping up of galaxies.

Galaxies that distant are very faint, so BOSS looks for quasars: the powerful massive black hole at the centers of many early galaxies. As matter falls toward these black holes, it accelerates close to the speed of light, heating up and sending a lot of energy back into space. Contrary to stereotypes, black holes don’t devour everything—they can be some of the brightest objects in the Universe! And that helps BOSS: quasars are bright enough to be seen and mapped from 11 billion light-years away.

I visited the Apache Point Observatory in New Mexico two years ago, where the telescope taking data for BOSS is located. Unlike many, this telescope doesn’t have a dome to cover it, so to compensate, it has a square metal box around it to deflect wind. And let me say: those baffles make the telescope ugly, like its own mama puts a bag over its head before kissing it goodnight.

But the results coming out of BOSS are beautiful, even if the telescope is hideous. The new results provide the most accurate measure yet of the expansion rate of the cosmos 11 billion years ago. As researchers sift through the data, they’ll compare it to the outcomes of other observations—and try to answer some of those profound questions about the nature of dark energy.


http://news.yahoo.com/exploring-dark-energy-142200485--politics.html (http://news.yahoo.com/exploring-dark-energy-142200485--politics.html)
Title: Elusive 'Exotic Hadron' Particles Confirmed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 16, 2014, 04:42:21 PM
Elusive 'Exotic Hadron' Particles Confirmed
LiveScience.com
By Tanya Lewis, Staff Writer  April 15, 2014 10:13 AM


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Overview of the first element (L) of the huge magnet of the CMS (Compact Muon Solenoid) experimental site at the European Organization for Nuclear Research CERN (Centre Europeen de Recherche Nucleaire) in the French village of Cessy near the Swiss city of Geneva November 29, 2006.  (REUTERS/Denis Balibouse)



The existence of exotic hadrons — a type of matter that doesn't fit within the traditional model of particle physics — has now been confirmed, scientists say.

Hadrons are subatomic particles made up of quarks and antiquarks (which have the same mass as their quark counterparts, but opposite charge), which interact via the "strong force" that binds protons together inside the nuclei of atoms.

Researchers working on the Large Hadron Collider beauty (LHCb) collaboration at CERN (the European Organization for Nuclear Research) in Switzerland — where the elusive Higgs boson particle was discovered in 2012 — announced today (April 14) they had confirmed the existence of a new type of hadron, with an unprecedented degree of statistical certainty.

"We've confirmed the unambiguous observation of a very exotic state — something that looks like a particle composed of two quarks and two antiquarks," study co-leader Tomasz Skwarnicki, a high-energy physicist at Syracuse University in New York said in a statement. The discovery "may give us a new way of looking at strong-[force] interaction physics," he added.

The Standard Model of particle physics allows for two kinds of hadrons. "Baryons" (such as protons) are made up of three quarks, and "mesons" are made up of a quark- antiquark pair. But since the Standard Model was developed, physicists have predicted the existence of other types of hadrons composed of different combinations of quarks and antiquarks, which could arise from the decay of mesons.

In 2007, a team of scientists called the Belle Collaboration that was using a particle accelerator in Japan discovered evidence of an exotic particle called Z(4430), which appeared to be composed of two quarks and two antiquarks. But some scientists thought their analysis was "naïve" and lacked good evidence, Skwarnicki said.

A few years later, a team known as BaBar used a more sophisticated analysis that seemed to explain the data without exotic hadrons.

"BaBar didn't prove that Belle's measurements and data interpretations were wrong," Skwarnicki said. "They just felt that, based on their data, there was no need to postulate existence of this particle."

So the original team conducted an even more rigorous analysis of the data, and found strong evidence for the particle.

Now, the LHCb team has studied data from more than 25,000 meson decay events selected from data from 180 trillion proton-proton collisions in the Large Hadron Collider, the world's largest and most powerful particle accelerator. They analyzed the data using both the Belle and BaBar teams' methods, and confirmed the particle was both real and an exotic hadron.

The results of the experiment are "the clincher" that such particles do exist, and aren't just some artifact of the data, Skwarnicki said.

His colleague, Sheldon Stone of CERN, also praised the achievement. "It's great to finally prove the existence of something that we had long thought was out there," he said.


http://news.yahoo.com/elusive-exotic-hadron-particles-confirmed-141306885.html (http://news.yahoo.com/elusive-exotic-hadron-particles-confirmed-141306885.html)
Title: 'Clever Editing' Warps Scientists' Words in New Geocentrism Film
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 17, 2014, 01:33:13 AM
Quote
'Clever Editing' Warps Scientists' Words in New Geocentrism Film
LiveScience.com
By Elizabeth Howell, Live Science Contributor  12 hours ago


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Geocentrism, a long-debunked idea, holds that the Earth is the center of the universe.



Four prominent cosmologists say they were misquoted in a documentary trailer promoting a claim debunked more than 450 years ago: that the Earth is in a privileged spot in the universe.

Producers of the independent film "The Principle" state that "science could be wrong" about the Copernican principle, or calculations by 16th-century astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus showing that Earth orbits around the sun and not the other way around. An Earth-centered solar system or universe is also defined as a geocentric system.

Co-producer Robert Sungenis did not respond to multiple interview requests from Live Science. His  trailer received universal ridicule among scientists interviewed for this story, including Lawrence Krauss, who was portrayed in the preview.

"I'd be more upset, except the idea is so stupid that in the end, it will just reflect badly on them," said Krauss, a theoretical physicist at Arizona State University. Krauss has authored more than 300 scientific publications and several mainstream books.

"People are afraid that science will threaten their faith, and there are two approaches: One is to deny the results — the science — and the other is to misuse science," he told Live Science. "I think these people think if they can hoodwink scientists, they can show off a thing or two, and of course they won't show anything."


'Clever editing'

The science of Copernicus and Isaac Newton (who formulated three laws of motion) underpin modern astronomy and physics. Their principles cover matters such as how spacecraft get from one planet to another and foundational mechanics governing how skyscrapers are built.

As for how the scientists appeared in "The Principle" in the first place, Michio Kaku — best known for his work on string theory – said it was a matter of "clever editing" of innocuous statements, which is hard to combat, since he likely signed a release form for his participation.

"It borders on intellectual dishonesty to get people to be a part of a debate they don't want to be a part of," said Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York who was also quoted in the trailer.

George Ellis, a mathematics professor emeritus at the University of Cape Town in South Africa, said geocentrism never came up in his interview.

"The interviewers never put that idea to me, and if they had done so, I would, of course, have said I do not agree," Ellis wrote in an email to Live Science. "There is no reason whatever to support such a view."

British physicist Julian Barbour — cited in a trailer description of the documentary on YouTube – said his involvement in the film seems to have arisen from a gross misunderstanding of a 1977 paper he di-authored with Italian physicist Bruno Bertotti.

The paper, Barbour told Live Science, created a model showing that Newton's First Law — that objects in motion will continue to move in a straight line unless an external force is applied — can be explained by distant stars or masses in the universe. The physicists used a simple modelin which the sun is at the center of the universe, but the model was not supposed to fully represent reality. It also, Barbour pointed out, is not a geocentric model as the Earth is still going around the sun.

"There's an awful lot of people on your side of the Atlantic that don’t believe in evolution," Barbour said. "I think it geocentrism] might be the same kind of phenomenon.," Barbour sai.


Finding Earth's motion in space

Astronomer Chris Impey of the University of Arizona, who was not quoted in the trailer,  – said geocentric views do not necessarily mean  a disbelief in evolution. Scientific conspiracy views, however, tend to cluster, he said.

More scientific literacy is needed to combat such uninformed views, especially to explain the subtle arguments against geocentrism, he said.

"Earth moving versus the sun was not a trivial issue to resolve, and in fact, it was not completely resolved in the time of Copernicus," Impey told Live Science. It wasn't until 1728 that James Bradley reported the aberration of starlight, a phenomenon where Earth's motion in space makes it look like the stars are changing positions.

Producers of the documentary include Robert Sungenis, whose writings include the book "Galileo Was Wrong: The Church Was Right" (CAI Publishing Inc., 2007), and Rick DeLano, who wrote a statement on "The Principle's" Facebook page.

DeLano said the documentary addresses information that "mainstream opinion makers" would not want publicized — for example, a 1922 statement by Albert Einstein saying the motion of the Earth "cannot be detected by any optical experiment."

DeLano did not mention the rest of Einstein's sentence, in which he added that the Earth is revolving around the sun,  – or that Einstein's theory of special relativity explains stellar aberration.
http://news.yahoo.com/clever-editing-warps-scientists-words-geocentrism-film-120818059.html (http://news.yahoo.com/clever-editing-warps-scientists-words-geocentrism-film-120818059.html)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 17, 2014, 04:00:58 AM
SO - a question for anyone who thinks they can wrap their head around it:

The entire universe is expanding - the furthest parts we'd observed when I was a lot younger displayed a red-shift indicating they were receding at about half the speed of light, according to our frame of reference.  So according to the reference frame of a hypothetical inhabitant of the far side of the universe, we're doing the receding, and I suppose the relativistic space/time dilatation balances/cancels out.  Fine.

But imagine that I'm aboard a starship, we'll call it the Unity, heading for Alpha Centauri at 10%C, making for a forty year journey (from an outside "resting" reference point).  The universe has no center -something I don't really understand, BTW- and all of it is moving relative to the rest of it, and the time/space dilation of special relativity is a function of %C - is the frame of reference for relative velocity the average position of the rest of the entire universe, and what/where/how's the bookkeeping to determine relative velocity taking place?

Keep in mind that I'm stupid at math, if you think you know the answer.  I would like a layman's understanding, though.  Please.

...

BTW, I hadn't seen the first episode of new Cosmos yet when I said that about the universe maybe being an in-falling black hole...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on April 17, 2014, 12:44:05 PM
Astrophysicists and theoretical mathematicians say the universe has no center because it loops and folds and twists in and on and through itself. Wherever you are in it, you can call that its local center. I don't have your answer, except to say that wherever you are in the universe at any given moment is the basis for that frame of reference. Of course, as for the bookkeeper: Could it be someone has a much broader reference point? :)
Title: The Search for Gravitational Waves: New LIGO Documentary Launches (Watch Online)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 17, 2014, 10:33:19 PM

Quote
The Search for Gravitational Waves: New Documentary on Project LIGO Launches (Watch Online)
SPACE.com
by Miriam Kramer, Staff Writer  April 15, 2014 6:16 PM


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An aerial view of the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) facility in Livingston, La.



A newly released documentary brings the hunt for ripples in the fabric of space-time — called gravitational waves — into focus, and you can watch it live on Space.com.

The 20-minute film, called "LIGO, A Passion for Understanding," follows the scientists working to create one of the most powerful scientific tools ever made: the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatories, or LIGO for short. LIGO collected data between 2004 and 2010, but a newly upgraded version of the instrument is set to come online in 2015. You can [url-http://www.space.com/25455-ligo-documentary-film-complete-coverage.html]watch the LIGO documentary on Space.com[/url] now.

"As an aspiring filmmaker, it is my intent to focus on films which act as a conduit for science education and outreach," Kai Staats, the director of the new film, said of the inspiration behind the documentary. "While the general populous understands 'cancer research' and frequently quotes the most recent findings on age or diet, most people do not really understand what science is about, nor even what 'science' means."

The $205 million LIGO is designed to detect gravitational waves from Earth using a laser that shoots down two 2.5-mile (4 kilometers) arms outfitted with mirrors. In theory, if a gravitational wave passes, the two lasers will change size relative to each other.

The two LIGO observatories — one in Washington state and another in Louisiana — are seismically isolated so that scientists can try to be sure that they are measuring a gravitational wave instead of another event that could shake up the positioning of the lasers.

Staats worked with the LIGO scientists and used animation to show some of the more complex ideas explored in "LIGO, A Passion for Understanding."

"The film was shot in just 12 days at LIGO Hanford Observatory, mid December 2013," Staats told Space.com via email. "The 3D art was produced by the talented artist Leonardo Buono. The trailer was completed by mid January. Editing of the proper film was initiated the second week of February and completed (mostly) by mid March, with some fine-tuning of key sections. I estimate nearly two hundreds hours editing for the trailer and film."

LIGO's science is on the cutting edge of astrophysics today. Gravitational waves have recently made headlines, thanks to a new result from a telescope called BICEP2 (short for Background Imaging of Cosmic Extragalactic Polarization) in Antarctica.

Scientists using the South Pole instrument have discovered what look like the signs of primordial gravitational waves in the cosmic microwave background — ancient light that spread throughout the universe about 380,000 years after the Big Bang. If the finding is confirmed, those early ripples in space-time could be the telltale signs of the universe's rapid expansion shortly after the Big Bang.

Although LIGO will not look for these early gravitational waves, Staats did want to include something about primordial gravitational waves in the film. He even crafted a section about them. But the timing didn't work out, so the late-breaking science didn't make the cut.

"Given the time to premiere, we chose to use the next film as a place to thoroughly explain the various frequencies of gravitational waves and what they mean to human observers," Staats said. "It is never easy to drop part of film … but now we can look forward to an in-depth, likely very creative visual explanation in the next chapter."

Staats hopes that he'll have a chance to follow up the new documentary with another. The next film will detail the stories of the founder of LIGO and the new scientists working with the detector today.

Editor's Note: This story was updated at 12:53 p.m. EDT on April 15.

http://news.yahoo.com/search-gravitational-waves-documentary-project-ligo-launches-watch-221656341.html (http://news.yahoo.com/search-gravitational-waves-documentary-project-ligo-launches-watch-221656341.html)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 17, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
Astrophysicists and theoretical mathematicians say the universe has no center because it loops and folds and twists in and on and through itself. Wherever you are in it, you can call that its local center. I don't have your answer, except to say that wherever you are in the universe at any given moment is the basis for that frame of reference. Of course, as for the bookkeeper: Could it be someone has a much broader reference point? :)
God?  Possibly - you do know what Bertrand Russell called that, don't you?

I'd point out that according to theory, I'd be experiencing time aboard the Unity in a way consistent with the frame of reference being fairly local - I think.  I wonder if it's even possible to comment intelligently without some field experimentation/observation...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on April 18, 2014, 12:47:20 AM
Enlighten me, please. There is a site with six pages of his quotes (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/bertrand_russell.html (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/bertrand_russell.html)) and those dealing with religion and God and science seem positive enough.

Quote
some field experimentation/observation...
Something I wish was seriously possible in my (our?) lifetime.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2014, 01:03:45 AM
He was an atheist mathematician and philosopher whom atheists love to quote.  $#@! those guys, if you ask me, but he had a strong point here:  God of the Gaps - when pro-science Christians like you point at gaps in our scientific understanding as evidence of God.

Once in high school, someone showed me a Chick tract that asserted that no one knew what held nuclei together, claiming God did it.  Mr. Chick, like me at 13, had never heard of the fundamental forces.  God of the Gaps.

None of which is proof God isn't in there, of course, just that we've filled a lot of gaps so far without finding an Old Testament sky patriarch staring back in a way we understood as such. [shrugs]


Have you read Contact by Carl Sagan, or seen the movie?


Something I wish was seriously possible in my (our?) lifetime.
QFT!
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on April 18, 2014, 08:31:50 PM
I did see Contact three times over the years, and I really liked it. That bit where she talked to her "father" seemed a bit more fiction than science for me, but, imho, Sagan was trying to get "us" to just stop the nonsense and be real about life here on Earth before "we" messed it up so bad no alien would think of it as worth visiting. I have the book, but can't get to it right now, so I might be way off on that point. Between Sagan and Hawking, I can't decide who to read first.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2014, 08:43:30 PM
I'm thinking about the stuff with God hiding a message in the value of Pi; I don't remember much being made of it in the movie - a pity, too.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2014, 09:28:19 PM
I'm thinking about the stuff with God hiding a message in the value of Pi; I don't remember much being made of it in the movie - a pity, too.

Which doesn't really make sense; pi can be defined in a number of equivalent ways (the most fundamental is probably as half the period of solutions to the differential equation y''=-y), none of which are properties of the universe or of anything else that can be said to have been created.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2014, 09:34:29 PM
The idea was hiding messages in natural laws/universal constants - the book had the pseudo-dad claiming there were lots in lots of places.  The ending had base ten maths expressing a binary code, for that matter; but Pi IS a law of the universe as we know it - and wouldn't it be cool if God had done that?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on April 18, 2014, 10:00:46 PM
I'll have to make time for the book. There's only so much one can put in a 2-hour movie. I don't know the message of the book, but one thing I got from the movie is if we don't blow ourselves up, maybe the aliens will come and tell us some more secrets.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2014, 10:03:04 PM
There's a lot more theology in the book, and Sagan was amazingly fair, IMAO, considering his own non-belief.  The book is flawed, but still much deeper than the movie.
Title: Poll: Big Bang a big question for most Americans
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 22, 2014, 05:18:41 AM
Quote
Poll: Big Bang a big question for most Americans
AP-GfK Poll: Most agree with scientists on smoking, fewer buy Big Bang, evolution or warming
Associated Press
By Seth Borenstein and Jennifer Agiesta, Associated Press  12 hours ago


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FILE - This March 2, file 2013 file photo shows a woman smoking a cigarette while sitting in her truck in Hayneville, Ala. Few Americans question that smoking causes cancer. But as we get farther from our own bodies and the present, a new AP-GfK poll shows Americans have much more doubts in other concepts that scientists say are basic truth: global warming, evolution, and their largest question mark was in the Big Bang that created the universe. “Science ignorance is pervasive in our society, and these attitudes are reinforced when some of our leaders are openly antagonistic to established facts,” said 2013 Nobel Prize in medicine winner Randy Scheckman. (AP Photo/Dave Martin, File)



WASHINGTON (AP) -- While scientists believe the universe began with a Big Bang, most Americans put a big question mark on the concept, an Associated Press-GfK poll found.

Yet when it comes to smoking causing cancer or that a genetic code determines who we are, the doubts disappear.

When considering concepts scientists consider truths, Americans have more skepticism than confidence in those that are farther away from our bodies in scope and time: global warming, the age of the Earth and evolution and especially the Big Bang from 13.8 billion years ago.

Rather than quizzing scientific knowledge, the survey asked people to rate their confidence in several statements about science and medicine.

On some, there's broad acceptance. Just 4 percent doubt that smoking causes cancer, 6 percent question whether mental illness is a medical condition that affects the brain and 8 percent are skeptical there's a genetic code inside our cells. More — 15 percent — have doubts about the safety and efficacy of childhood vaccines.

About 4 in 10 say they are not too confident or outright disbelieve that the earth is warming, mostly a result of man-made heat-trapping gases, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old or that life on Earth evolved through a process of natural selection, though most were at least somewhat confident in each of those concepts. But a narrow majority — 51 percent — questions the Big Bang theory.

Those results depress and upset some of America's top scientists, including several Nobel Prize winners, who vouched for the science in the statements tested, calling them settled scientific facts.

"Science ignorance is pervasive in our society, and these attitudes are reinforced when some of our leaders are openly antagonistic to established facts," said 2013 Nobel Prize in medicine winner Randy Schekman of the University of California, Berkeley.

The poll highlights "the iron triangle of science, religion and politics," said Anthony Leiserowitz, director of the Yale Project on Climate Change Communication.

And scientists know they've got the shakiest leg in the triangle.

To the public "most often values and beliefs [Sleezebag] science" when they conflict, said Alan Leshner, chief executive of the world's largest scientific society, the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Political and religious values were closely tied to views on science in the poll, with Democrats more apt than Republicans to express confidence in evolution, the Big Bang, the age of the Earth and climate change.

Confidence in evolution, the Big Bang, the age of the Earth and climate change decline sharply as faith in a supreme being rises, according to the poll. Likewise, those who regularly attend religious services or are evangelical Christians express much greater doubts about scientific concepts they may see as contradictory to their faith.

"When you are putting up facts against faith, facts can't argue against faith," said 2012 Nobel Prize winning biochemistry professor Robert Lefkowitz of Duke University. "It makes sense now that science would have made no headway because faith is untestable."

But evolution, the age of the Earth and the Big Bang are all compatible with God, except to Bible literalists, said Francisco Ayala, a former priest and professor of biology, philosophy and logic at the University of California, Irvine.

Beyond religious belief, views on science may be tied to what we see with our own eyes. The closer an issue is to ourselves and the less complicated, the easier it is for people to believe, said John Staudenmaier, a Jesuit priest and historian of technology at the University of Detroit Mercy.

Marsha Brooks, a 59-year-old nanny who lives in Washington, D.C., said she's certain smoking causes cancer because she saw her mother, aunts and uncles, all smokers, die of cancer. But when it comes to the universe beginning with a Big Bang or the Earth being about 4.5 billion years old, she has doubts. She explained: "It could be a lack of knowledge. It seems so far" away.

Jorge Delarosa, a 39-year-old architect from Bridgewater, N.J., pointed to a warm 2012 without a winter and said, "I feel the change. There must be a reason." But when it came to Earth's beginnings 4.5 billion years ago, he has doubts simply because "I wasn't there."

Experience and faith aren't the only things affecting people's views on science. Duke University's Lefkowitz sees "the force of concerted campaigns to discredit scientific fact" as a more striking factor, citing significant interest groups — political, business and religious — campaigning against scientific truths on vaccines, climate change and evolution.

The AP-GfK Poll was conducted March 20-24, 2014, using KnowledgePanel, GfK's probability-based online panel designed to be representative of the U.S. population. It involved online interviews with 1,012 adults and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.4 percentage points for all respondents.

Respondents were first selected randomly using phone or mail survey methods and were later interviewed online. People selected for KnowledgePanel who didn't otherwise have access to the Internet were provided with the ability to access the Internet at no cost to them.
http://news.yahoo.com/poll-big-bang-big-most-074021144.html (http://news.yahoo.com/poll-big-bang-big-most-074021144.html)
Title: Dark Matter Could Send Asteroids Crashing into Earth: New Theory
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 30, 2014, 04:44:32 AM
Quote
Dark Matter Could Send Asteroids Crashing into Earth: New Theory
SPACE.com
by Charles Q. Choi, SPACE.com Contributor  17 hours ago


(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/rpB1vRdhI_1PnEZLIzVp1Q--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTk5MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Dark_Matter_Could_Send_Asteroids-5411fc1d22e74cc672478a700ea21e04)
These illustrations, taken from computer simulations, show a swarm of dark matter clumps around our Milky Way galaxy. Image released July 10, 2012.



Dark matter could sling lethal meteors at Earth, potentially causing mass extinctions like the cataclysm that ended the Age of Dinosaurs, Harvard scientists say.

Physicists think the mysterious, invisible substance called dark matter makes up five-sixths of all matter in the universe. It was first detected by the strength of its gravitational pull, which apparently helps keep the Milky Way and other galaxies from spinning apart, given the speeds at which they whirl.

Scientists have recently suggested that a thin, dense disk of dark matter about 35 light-years thick lies along the central plane of the Milky Way, cutting through the galaxy's disk of stars. The sun travels in an up-and-down, wavy motion through this plane while orbiting the center of the galaxy.

Researchers suggest this disk of clouds and clumps made of dark matter might disturb the orbits of comets in the outer solar system, hurling them inward. This could lead to catastrophic asteroid impacts on Earth, of the kind that likely ended the Age of Dinosaurs, said theoretical physicists Lisa Randall and Matthew Reece at Harvard University.

Past research has suggested meteor bombardment of Earth rises and falls in a cycle about 35 million years long. In the past, scientists have proposed a cosmic trigger for this cycle, such as a potential companion star for the sun with the dramatic name "Nemesis."

Instead of blaming a "death star" for these catastrophes, Randall and Reese point out that this cycle of doom closely matches the rate at which the sun passes through the central plane of the Milky Way. This hints that the galaxy's "dark disk" may be the actual culprit.


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/nY3X.LhxPmFmrdmdseFvyA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU3NTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Dark_Matter_Could_Send_Asteroids-1207058055638ba469bb6b460d199dea)
Artist’s impression of a 6-mile-wide asteroid striking the Earth. Scientists think approximately 70 of these dinosaur killer-sized or larger asteroids hit Earth between 3.8 and 1.8 billion years ago.


The researchers analyzed craters more than 12 miles (20 kilometers) wide created in the past 250 million years, and compared their pattern against the 35-million-year cycle. They found that it was three times more likely that the craters matched the dark matter cycle than that they occurred randomly.

This cycle might have killed off dinosaurs about 67 million years ago. "The cycle is slightly off for that mass extinction, but we have an incomplete data set regarding impact craters, so maybe with more information the cycle might fit what we know better," Randall told Space.com.

Although a three-to-one chance sounds impressive, the researchers cautioned that this statistical evidence is not overwhelming.

The scientists note that the European Space Agency's Gaia mission could reveal the existence or nonexistence of a dark matter disk. Launched in 2013, this mission will create a precise 3D map of stars throughout the Milky Way, potentially confirming or denying the existence of a dark disk that gravitationally influences stellar motions.

"Even if it's a remote possibility that dark matter can affect the local environment in ways that have noticeable consequences over long periods of time, it's still incredibly interesting," Randall said.

The scientists detailed their findings online April 20 in the journal Physical Review Letters.
http://news.yahoo.com/dark-matter-could-send-asteroids-crashing-earth-theory-103327056.html (http://news.yahoo.com/dark-matter-could-send-asteroids-crashing-earth-theory-103327056.html)

...

Siiigh.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on April 30, 2014, 07:57:13 AM
By merits of observation only, the impact rate shouldn't correlate with dark matter, but with Sol moving through the plane of the Galaxy.

Still, 5/6ths of undetected mass residing in interstellar space sounds huge. It feels unlikely this amount could be provided alone by rogue planets/brown dwarfs/whatnot.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 30, 2014, 12:31:45 PM
Quote
Past research has suggested meteor bombardment of Earth rises and falls in a cycle about 35 million years long. In the past, scientists have proposed a cosmic trigger for this cycle, such as a potential companion star for the sun with the dramatic name "Nemesis."

Instead of blaming a "death star" for these catastrophes, Randall and Reese point out that this cycle of doom closely matches the rate at which the sun passes through the central plane of the Milky Way. This hints that the galaxy's "dark disk" may be the actual culprit.

Wow, the mayan death calendar theory...in a science article!  (the Mayan calendar actually tracked this cycle of entering the 'dark matter') 

Yeah, it makes sense we go into the denser part of the galaxy, we are more likely to be hit.  No need for dark matter to be altering orbits.  Perhaps for the other thread, it's also been postulated that the increased radiation we'll be seeing for the next few hundred thousand years plays a part in global warming. 

Title: Could Tiny 'Black Hole Atoms' Be Elusive Dark Matter?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2014, 01:54:56 AM
Quote
Could Tiny 'Black Hole Atoms' Be Elusive Dark Matter?
SPACE.com
by Katia Moskvitch, SPACE.com Contributor  May 1, 2014 7:07 AM


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Plcx1SvJE4raE9I.NTkExw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQzMTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Could_Tiny_%27Black_Hole_Atoms%27-489b241ee8a2a37e4ce339f664b3d82d)
Dark matter is an invisible material that emits or absorbs no light but betrays its presence by interacting gravitationally with visible matter. This image from Dark Universe shows the distribution of dark matter in the universe



Dark matter, the invisible and mysterious stuff that makes up most of the material universe, might be hiding itself in microscopic black holes, says a team of Russian astrophysicists.

No one knows what dark matter is. But scientists do know that it must exist, because there is not enough visible matter in the cosmos to account for all the gravity that binds galaxies and other large-scale structures together.

Astronomers have been on the hunt for dark matter for decades now, using detectors both on Earth and in space. The new hypothesis, formulated by astrophysicists Vyacheslav Dokuchaev and Yury Eroshenko at the Institute for Nuclear Research of the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow, suggests that dark matter could be made of microscopic — or quantum — "black hole atoms."

The concept is not entirely new; others have suggested that various types of miniature black holes could make up dark matter, which is so named because it apparently neither absorbs nor emits light, and thus cannot be detected directly by telescopes.

Physicists have also long believed that microscopic black holes must have existed in the early universe, because quantum fluctuations in the density of matter just after the Big Bang would have created regions of space dense enough to allow the formation of such tiny black holes.

Some researchers believe that the universe could still be full of such "primordial black holes."


Enigmatic 'friedmons'

The new study by Dokuchaev and Eorshenko suggests a specific type of quantum black hole might exist: so-called black hole atoms. These microscopic black holes would originally have had an electric charge, the researchers say. This charge would have attracted protons or electrons, leaving the tiny black hole electrically neutral, just like an atom.

The idea is partly based on the "friedmon theory" proposed in the 1970s by prominent Russian physicists Moisei Markov and Valeri Frolov of the University of Alberta in Canada.

A friedmon is a mathematical solution of the Einstein field equations, which are key constituents of the theory of general relativity. To an external observer, a friedmon looks like a micro blackhole with anelectric charge the same as that of the electron.

However, the friedmon's interior can be macroscopically large — up to the size of the known universe, Frolov, who was not involved in the new study, told Space.com.

And a friedmon with an electron moving around it is similar to an atom, he added.

Markov and Frolov never made the link between the friedmon and dark matter. But Dokuchaev says that such neutral black hole atoms should have the same properties that dark matter is thought to possess.

The black holes would have about the same mass as an asteroid, from 10^14 kilograms to 10^23 kilograms, but be even smaller than atoms. Their interaction with ordinary matter would also be extremely weak — even weaker than that of neutrinos, the researchers said.

The quantum black holes would therefore be dark, massive, non-interacting particles – with properties that “"one needs for the dark matter candidates,”" write Dokuchaev and Eroshenko write in a paper published in March in the journal Advances in High Energy Physics.


Elusive dark matter

But Frolov doesn't think that the idea quite works.

"Using [friedmons] for the explanation of the dark matter looks contradictory. Dark matter must be formed of WIMPs (weakly interacting massive particles), while friedmon atoms 'participate' in the electromagnetic interaction," he said.

"Possibly for this reason, Dr. Dokuchaev proposed to 'put' an electron orbit inside the friedmon. However, in this case the friedmon configuration will not be stabilized by an electric charge, and its external mass may be reduced to zero value," Frolov added. "Another unsolved problem of his model is the mechanism of the friedmon's formation. One can expect that in order to produce a sufficient number of friedmons to explain the dark matter, in the early universe there must exist large small-scale inhomogeneities. This is difficult to expect in the standard inflation models."

Other cosmologists also have doubts.

"Usually, black holes are not expected to be charged in astrophysical or cosmological environments, because they quickly get neutralized by accreting charged particles of opposite sign — electrons or protons — from their environment," said Avi Loeb, an astrophysicist at Harvard University.

But Dokuchaev is convinced that his concept is just as good as all the other dark matter theories; after all, no one has yet spotted this mysterious invisible stuff.

Black hole atoms now join a long list of candidates for dark matter particles, from supersymmetric neutralinos, WIMPs and axions to warm sterile neutrinos and many more, Dokuchaev told Space.com. Verifying whether any of them is the real deal will require catching one first, he added.

And spotting a neutral black hole atom should be possible, the Russian researchers say, because the formation of these peculiar invisible objects might produce a detectable signal.

When an electron is drawn into a quantum black hole so that a black hole atom is formed, the process would release energy in the form of a flash of ultra-high-energy cosmic rays, the researchers write. Also, electron jumps from one level to another would release photons, making black hole atoms "observable in principle," the researchers add.
http://news.yahoo.com/could-tiny-black-hole-atoms-elusive-dark-matter-110706272.html (http://news.yahoo.com/could-tiny-black-hole-atoms-elusive-dark-matter-110706272.html)

...

Stripped of the wild fudge-factor bull, I have long wondered if this very thing could account for the "dark matter" effects (w/o the "dark matter" in the quantum black holes, of course).
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on May 03, 2014, 08:35:34 PM
It also sounds like a way to sent info from one quantum point to another somewhere in the universe if at the quantum level all those tiny black holes can be linked.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2014, 08:42:38 PM
I believe in SF they call a device harnessing the quantum observer effect for FTL communications an ansible...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on May 04, 2014, 09:24:05 PM
Oh, is that how Orson Scot Card described his FTL communication?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 04, 2014, 09:27:08 PM
That is the term he used in the Ender books - I've seen other authors use it, too.  I assume they all mean the same thing, but I don't recall who went into it.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on May 05, 2014, 02:53:18 AM
wikipedia says:

An ansible is a fictional machine capable of instantaneous or superluminal communication. Typically it is depicted as a lunch-box-sized[citation needed] object with some combination of microphone, speaker, keyboard and display. It can send and receive messages to and from a corresponding device over any distance whatsoever with no delay. Ansibles occur as plot devices in science fiction literature.

Origin
The word ansible was coined by Ursula K. Le Guin in her 1966 novel Rocannon's World.[1] Le Guin states that she derived the name from "answerable," as the device would allow its users to receive answers to their messages in a reasonable amount of time, even over interstellar distances.[2] Her award-winning 1974 novel The Dispossessed,[3] a book in the Hainish Cycle, tells of the invention of the ansible.

Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 05, 2014, 04:08:30 AM
I knew that.  I forgot that I knew about LeGuin (who rocks beyond description, BTW) and the ansibles in the Hanish books.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on May 05, 2014, 12:37:43 PM
Yes, whereas many SciFi authors spin a good yarn, LeGuin weaves an entire tapestry.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on May 05, 2014, 07:14:58 PM
Yes, whereas many SciFi authors spin a good yarn, LeGuin weaves an entire tapestry.

Whom of the three Fates you reckon she might be?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 05, 2014, 07:36:59 PM
The one who writes about the people, not the machines.
Title: NASA's Dark Energy Hunt Combines Powerful New Tools and 2 Missions
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 03, 2014, 06:44:02 PM
Quote
NASA's Dark Energy Hunt Combines Powerful New Tools and 2 Missions
SPACE.com
by Nola Taylor Redd, SPACE.com Contributor  6 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/m__YlMgkkjVX5.v.vyvuMQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTI1OTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/NASA%27s_Dark_Energy_Hunt_Combines-73c73ab09eeac1b3fee3cef7db0e013e)
An artist's rendition of the proposed WFIRST-AFTA mission, which will study dark energy, extrasolar planets and objects in the near-infrared.



Dark energy makes up nearly three-fourths of the universe, driving its accelerating expansion, but the substance is still mysterious to scientists that study it.

In upcoming years, NASA has plans to investigate this powerful force with the new WFIRST-AFTA mission and a strong role in the European Space Agency's Euclid mission.

"NASA has plans for a robust dark energy portfolio over the next decade," Jason Rhodes of the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory said during a news conference at the April meeting of the American Physics Society in Savannah, Georgia.


'A tripod of science'

NASA's proposed Wide-Field Infrared Survey Telescope-Astrophysics Focused Telescope Assets, or WFIRST-AFTA, will use five probes to perform three complimentary surveys in its search to clarify the nature of dark energy.

"WFIRST-AFTA is a survey mission to make the most precise measurements on the influence of dark energy and dark matter on the universe," Neil Gehrels, WFIRST project scientist of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, told Space.com by email.

Type Ia supernovas are thought to form from the explosion of a white dwarf star. Because these powerful detonations all share similar brightness that can be viewed in distant galaxies, they are regarded as "standard candles" of cosmology. Recording how dim a supernova appears provides an indication of their distance.


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/_R.v9eUbXnw_3cOvn6WdTA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTE2OTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/NASA%27s_Dark_Energy_Hunt_Combines-76f400e7c25d0e52b0bb7e245950f9c4)
An artist's view shows three different potential methods of forming Type 1a supernovae, the 'standard candles' used to measure the expansion of the universe. The first two panels show a white dwarf in a binary system accumulating matter


WFIRST-AFTA will survey nearly 3,000 Type Ia supernovas to determine how rapidly they are moving away from the Milky Way due to the expansion of the universe. Scientists think dark energy drives this expansion.

"We can trace out how the universe is expanding more rapidly in the current epoch than earlier in the history of the universe and use that to constrain models of dark energy," Gehrels said.

The telescope will also perform a High Latitude Imaging Survey to determine the effects of dark matter structures on the light from distant galaxies. Einstein predicted — and scientists have subsequently confirmed—that massive structures bend the light coming from objects behind them, serving as a gravitational lens. Astronomers have used such natural telescopes formed by features such as massive galaxies to study objects throughout the universe.

Dark matter works the same way, bending the light from galaxies that sit behind it. By searching for small distortions of galactic shapes, WFIRST-AFTA will allow scientists to determine the dark matter distribution along the lines of sight.

The third dark energy survey planned for WFIRST-AFTA will study baryonic acoustic oscillations, or BAOs. Ripples of sound waves left over from the early universe grew into the larger structures of the universe over time. Accurately measuring the position and distance of a hundred million galaxies will map these disturbances to determine the evolution of dark energy over time.

The three complimentary surveys combine to provide a broad portrait of dark energy.


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/3HnT_iQg94RyGDBSN3qmKw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU3NTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/NASA%27s_Dark_Energy_Hunt_Combines-76544355aad32770bdfb5122daf3dadc)
An artist's concept of the ESA's Euclid misssion to study dark energy.


"The combined power of all these probes will give the best understanding of dark energy in the current universe and how it evolved with time as the universe expanded," Gehrels said. "WFIRST-AFTA is the only observatory, space or ground based, that combines all of these probes."

Proposed to launch in the mid-2020s, WFIRST-AFTA is not searching solely for information about dark energy. Instead, it combines what Gehrels calls "a tripod of science." The telescope will also image planets outside the solar system and perform near-infrared surveys.


Euclid

In addition to its own mission, NASA will participate in the European Space Agency's Euclid mission. Last year, NASA nominated 40 American scientists to join the 14 American scientists already part of the international Euclid Consortium, the team responsible for the science, data production and instruments for the mission. NASA will also provide 16 infrared detectors for the telescope.

Euclid's goal is to understand the nature of dark energy and its role in the expansion of the universe. To do so, it plans to use two complimentary probes to study the phenomenon. The first probe will study weak gravitational lensing, while the second will examine BAOs.

Orbiting at the second Lagrangian point, Euclid will use two instruments to study a wide region of the sky free from the contaminating light from the solar system and the galaxy. It will also observe two "Euclid Deep Fields" of the early universe.

Of the approximately 10 billion sources Euclid intends to observe, more than 1 billion will be studied for weak lensing, while tens of millions of galaxies will be measured for clustering caused by BAOs.

"WFIRST-AFTA and Euclid will make complimentary observations, with WFIRST-AFTA observing fainter galaxies and Euclid observing more sky," Gehrels said.

"The combined data set will be much larger and more accurate than any other BAO measurement."

When combined with ground-based observations over a variety of wavelengths, the new observations that WFIRST-AFTA and Euclid will obtain should provide significant insights into dark energy and the expansion of the universe.

"The best constraints on dark energy in the 2020s will come from a combination of Euclid, WFIRST and ground-based data," Rhodes said.
http://news.yahoo.com/nasas-dark-energy-hunt-combines-powerful-tools-2-110751699.html (http://news.yahoo.com/nasas-dark-energy-hunt-combines-powerful-tools-2-110751699.html)

---

Siiigh.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 03, 2014, 09:28:42 PM
You shouldn't have any problem with this. The best way to show dark energy isn't real (if you happen to believe that) is to test its predictions against reality.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 03, 2014, 09:41:20 PM
I have a problem with people being stupid, is all - it's not one of my better personality traits.  Bugs me that so much has been hung on a ludicrous fudge factor.

But you're right of course.  Kill all the dark crap dead so we can move onto some real science.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 03, 2014, 09:47:44 PM
Well, I can say that it's not energy because you can't light anything with it, and a believer will insist that I merely proved it's dark.

Or maybe they'll say it's like dark humor, and that the very act of study and analysis will destroy it. :P
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 03, 2014, 10:27:51 PM
Dark energy is a bad name and probably goes a long way toward explaining people's resistance to the concept.

I contend that dark energy is not the new aether, however, because it doesn't fall prey to the usual errors we tend to see in historical scientific mistakes. Most of the errors that led to people believing strongly in the wrong thing were the result of assumptions about how the universe must be.

For example, with the aether, physicists were certain that light must travel through a medium, even though there was no reason beyond analogy to believe this was the case. When vitalism ruled the day, biologists believed that life must have some essence to it that separated it from non-life. There are countless examples of theories relying on assumptions about how the universe must be.

This is not the case with dark energy. Dark energy is real if general relativity holds. Yet general relativity is universally understood to be a provisional theory. It is wrong, because it is incompatible with quantum mechanics (which is also wrong, for the same reason). So there aren't scientists who believe general relativity must be true. Rather, scientists think that we should give general relativity the benefit of the doubt for now because it is an enormously accurate and precise theory that has been confirmed over and over again for the last century. If you accept the provisional validity of general relativity, accepting dark energy follows naturally.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 03, 2014, 10:39:45 PM
No, if I accept GR, dark energy is a possible explanation for observed anomalies, absent a better one, which is what I'm waiting for.   -Also, you're right that the name is a bad one.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 03, 2014, 11:46:38 PM
Let's rename it. I'm assuming "Invisible" isn't a great alternative, either.


String energy?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 03, 2014, 11:54:38 PM
Something to do with spatial expansion - if I understand right, it's nothing to do with energy anyway.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 12:25:04 AM
It does have something to do with energy. In fact, energy-wise, dark energy comprises the majority of the universe. This is a big part of why dark energy is thought to exist. All observations to date show that we are currently in the epoch of dark energy, just as we were once in an epoch of matter and before that of radiation.

The hang-up here is that thinking of energy as something that turns the lights on--or does work of some kind--is kind of a limited view. Since general relativity, energy is also what causes the curvature (or, more generally, distortion) of space (which eventually leads to doing work on stuff). So because cosmologists have tremendous observational evidence that space is being perturbed in a particular way, they can say with a great deal of confidence that there is some amount of energy causing this disturbance.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 12:26:31 AM
You do realize how circular the logic of the first two sentences reads?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 12:38:21 AM
It may seem circular, but not if you read the second paragraph. The point is that, if you accept GR and you accept modern astronomical observations, there is some amount of space-curving energy that exists in the universe. It was the initial observation of the accelerating expansion of the universe that showed this energy exists, but subsequent observations of a wide variety of different phenomena confirmed the amount of energy that is out there which cannot be accounted for by matter and radiation.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 04, 2014, 12:56:08 AM
More than heat, light, electricity and magnetism?

Is gravity energy, too?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 01:13:31 AM
Electricity, magnetism, and gravity are not energy, no; they're forces. Forces, by definition, are changes in momentum. And when you change the momentum of something, you move energy around. That's where heat and light come from.

But I'm not sure what you're asking with your first question.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 01:47:16 AM
It may seem circular, but not if you read the second paragraph. The point is that, if you accept GR and you accept modern astronomical observations, there is some amount of space-curving energy that exists in the universe. It was the initial observation of the accelerating expansion of the universe that showed this energy exists, but subsequent observations of a wide variety of different phenomena confirmed the amount of energy that is out there which cannot be accounted for by matter and radiation.
You're telling me popular conclusions I'm already familiar with, not why this explanation works where no other does, or even why I should trust that the observations in question out to be considered complete enough.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 04, 2014, 02:13:13 AM
I thought you were suggesting I had a narrow view of energy. I can accept that. I didn't go to college( I went into a family business ), and my interest in space is mostly geographical, and my interest in science is primarily biology.

I was wondering what you were getting at. Matter as energy in motion? or something else?

I thought that if you suggested a new name for dark matter it would help me conceptualize it beyond a "sounds like a fudge factor theory to cover up some phenomena we don't understand"  term, in a ether/humors/poltergeist/   mythology kind of way.

What if  dark matter is  not something new, but some kind of an optical ( or other ) illusion in a retrograde planet / rainbow / rods/  mirage kind of way that calls for reconsidering the way light works ( or gravity, or time or magnetism or  waves  or whatever ) ?

That's what I'd investigate. I wouldn't say "Eureka! It's cold fusion!" when stuff doesn't add up.

I'd reconsider assumptions. Maybe there's room for improvement in one of the measurement methods on a cosmic scale in the new millennia. Or maybe there needs to be a new theory of time/matter/ energy.



So, how about a new name for dark energy?

Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 02:19:10 AM
That's well-put Rusty; I've wondered myself if the universal expansion was a POV issue we've yet to wrap our heads around.

What would it look like from the inside of a black hole?  There's some reason to think the universe might be an in-falling black hole - I'd herd of this years before it got mentioned in the first episode of the Cosmos revival.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 02:23:14 AM
I was wondering when you guys would ask that. To answer the question of, "Why isn't dark energy anything else?" I'd suggest reading these four blog posts:

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/04/dark-energy-hard-to-kill-part/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/04/dark-energy-hard-to-kill-part/)

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/05/dark-energy-gaining-a-foothold/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/05/dark-energy-gaining-a-foothold/)

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/11/dark-energy-where-did-the-ligh/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/11/dark-energy-where-did-the-ligh/)

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/30/dark-energy-beyond-supernovae/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/30/dark-energy-beyond-supernovae/)

They provide a good explanation of what the original observations meant, what else scientists thought they could mean, and why scientists are now very confident that those other explanations don't hold up.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 02:29:41 AM
Ugh.  Homework.  ;goofy;
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 02:38:11 AM
Additionally, this guy was going through grad school at about the time of the supernova discoveries. For several years, he (and many other cosmologists) did not believe that dark energy was responsible for the apparent accelerated expansion of the universe. But he eventually changed his mind as new evidence came in, and so did the cosmology community. Here's a good account of why he changed his mind.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/07/19/one-does-not-simply-believe-in-dark-energy/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/07/19/one-does-not-simply-believe-in-dark-energy/)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 02:41:44 AM
Basically, this idea that cosmologists haven't considered alternatives to dark energy is not supported by the history. Around the turn of the new millennium, cosmology journals were absolutely full of alternative explanations for the dimming of distant supernovae. The most plausible explanation was that some kind of dust was obscuring these distant supernovae and making them appear dimmer than they otherwise would be. But that (and other, less plausible explanations) were ruled out by further observations.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 02:48:01 AM
Tell me about the Standard Candle, and why they think they can assume a set brightness for supernovae of a type - I've never gotten that latter.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 03:03:20 AM
The reason type 1a supernovae are thought to be reliable standard candles is because of the Chandrasekhar limit. This limit (backed by some very solid QM) is the point at which a white dwarf star becomes too massive for electron degeneracy pressure to resist its own gravity. The limit is about 1.4 solar masses.

Additionally, only a certain class of stars will ever evolve into white dwarfs, which means astronomers know what sorts of elements are going to be present in that star's spectrum. And if those stars ever go above the 1.4 solar mass limit (because of siphoning, or collisions, or other astronomical events), they will immediately explode.

What this means is that astronomers see a particular spectrum (because all white dwarfs originated as a similar type of star) at a particular brightness (because all type 1a supernovae will have 1.4 solar masses). This makes them very good standard candles.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 03:12:17 AM
Okay, and why is reaching sufficient mass to collapse into a black hole, absent radiation pressure, a limit on supernovas?  Doesn't the Chandrasekhar limit pertain to star at the end of their fusion cycle?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 03:25:22 AM
It's not a limit on all supernovae, only type 1a supernovae. Basically, when they reach this limit, they begin to collapse, which increases temperature and density further, which allows for the fusion of the carbon in the star's atmosphere. This sudden burst of fusion causes a massive explosion that expels a giant chunk of the star into space.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 03:28:11 AM
Yes, and everything from iron on up is a product of supernovas - we think.

I had understood that the explosion was more a product of bounce back from the collapse, but had wondered why that could last weeks...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 03:38:36 AM
What you're seeing weeks later is more the afterglow of the explosion than the explosion itself. The runaway fusion event creates a particular set of radioactive isotopes with half-lives in the days to weeks range, so they're able to glow for a long time after the initial explosion.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 03:45:51 AM
When did the terminology change?  I would have sworn the phenomenon described with the white dwarf is what they used to call a plain ol' nova.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 04:04:05 AM
I was wondering when you guys would ask that. To answer the question of, "Why isn't dark energy anything else?" I'd suggest reading these four blog posts:

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/04/dark-energy-hard-to-kill-part/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/04/dark-energy-hard-to-kill-part/)

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/05/dark-energy-gaining-a-foothold/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/05/dark-energy-gaining-a-foothold/)

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/11/dark-energy-where-did-the-ligh/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/11/dark-energy-where-did-the-ligh/)

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/30/dark-energy-beyond-supernovae/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/11/30/dark-energy-beyond-supernovae/)

They provide a good explanation of what the original observations meant, what else scientists thought they could mean, and why scientists are now very confident that those other explanations don't hold up.
Additionally, this guy was going through grad school at about the time of the supernova discoveries. For several years, he (and many other cosmologists) did not believe that dark energy was responsible for the apparent accelerated expansion of the universe. But he eventually changed his mind as new evidence came in, and so did the cosmology community. Here's a good account of why he changed his mind.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/07/19/one-does-not-simply-believe-in-dark-energy/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/07/19/one-does-not-simply-believe-in-dark-energy/)
No sale.  Those are too short and skip too many steps to be convincing.  Still no explanation of what dark energy is, only what it's alleged to have done.  Not good enough.

My vote is something no one's thought of yet.

...I'm thinking about those braided rings of Saturn found by Voyager 1 in 1980 - Newton's laws are long-standing and rigorous, yet here was something they didn't even know was possible, and I don't believe the mechanisms are completely understood yet.  -Because the universe tends to be more complex than we imagine, and our observations will never be complete...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 04:04:27 AM
A nova is just a burp. It's when a white dwarf accretes enough matter on its surface to ignite some limited hydrogen fusion. This causes an explosion, too, but it's relatively minor and the star more or less remains intact.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 04:12:59 AM
No sale.  Those are too short and skip too many steps to be convincing.  Still no explanation of what dark energy is, only what it's alleged to have done.  Not good enough.

My vote is something no one's thought of yet.

...I'm thinking about those braided rings of Saturn found by Voyager 1 in 1980 - Newton's laws are long-standing and rigorous, yet here was something they didn't even know was possible, and I don't believe the mechanisms are completely understood yet.  -Because the universe tends to be more complex than we imagine, and our observations will never be complete...

Hey, you guys wanted reasons why it's not something else. Those are the arguments about why it's nothing relatively normal. I can give you links describing what dark energy potentially is, too.

But think about what you're suggesting for a moment. When the observations were made in 1998, initially astronomers proposed a number of relatively mundane solutions. Further observations ruled out those solutions. So instead, astronomers proposed something more radical: a quantity of energy causing universal expansion.

What you're saying is that, no, it's not that radical suggestion, but an unknown other radical suggestion. Sure, that's possible, but why should cosmologists accept that it's an entirely unknown radical phenomenon when all the evidence to date suggests that it's one particular unknown phenomenon?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 04, 2014, 04:16:17 AM
Thanks for the links.
I think I processed the first 2 and a half pretty well.

The arguments in the comment section might as well say- "I'm smarter than you are!"

They got into a discussion of dark energy being a lame term and proposed "Dark Chocolate" to describe both "Dark Matter"  and "Dark Energy"  I like dark chocolate. It's more satisfying than a Milky Way. Or maybe they should name it after the chocolate beverage "Yahoo".


Any way He said they ruled out dust and other explanations without explaining. I'm still wondering if there aren't gravity waves and magnetic fields, or some other such residue of the big bang out there affecting the red shift in la supernovas .

Okay. I need to catch up with this thread....
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 04:21:20 AM
As far as what the best evidence suggests dark energy is...

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/23/what-is-dark-energy-2/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/23/what-is-dark-energy-2/)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 04:24:51 AM
Lori, can you explain the braided rings to me, then?  Has anyone worked the math out and survived peer review?

Yes, I'll stand behind it's an entirely unknown radical phenomenon.  Why energy?  What properties beyond the obvious.  Sounds like more of what I said about dark matter - there's aspects of how gravity works at a universal scale that we've yet to puzzle out.

-Rather like they found out with newtonian orbital mechanics; trivial effects over long time scales add up in non-intuitive ways, until the observations are complete enough.  Our earthbound perspective is not easily overcome.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 04, 2014, 04:29:29 AM
Okay.
Thanks for the info Lorizael.


I'll try to re-read it tomorrow. My mind has expanded enough for one night. I had no idea the theory of dark energy had been around as long as it has. It's nice to know it was met with skepticism.

Another comment I read in the blog comes to mind- "I wish Einstein were still alive to comment on this."
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 04:39:20 AM
Any way He said they ruled out dust and other explanations without explaining.

The third post goes into some detail about why dust cannot be the culprit. It can't be normal dust because normal dust wouldn't affect all wavelengths of light equally the way observed dimming appears. And it can't be an unknown type of grey dust because that would cause a steadily increasing level of dimming the farther out you get, which is not what astronomers actually observe.

Quote
I'm still wondering if there aren't gravity waves and magnetic fields, or some other such residue of the big bang out there affecting the red shift in la supernovas .

There are certainly gravity waves acting on large scales, but cosmologists have pretty good models of what sort of gravity waves would have been produced by the Big Bang, and there's no evidence at present to suggest that could account for extremely uniform dimming of distant supernovae. Moreover, there's significantly more evidence than supernovae alone pointing to dark energy.

Magnetic fields are extremely unlikely, however, because there's no good reason why magnetic fields would produce a uniform effect across the universe. Magnetic fields are only going to exist in the vicinity of charged particles, and which means they're only going to occur in areas of high density. So any effect from a magnetic field would depend on where you look, and to date the expansion of the universe looks identical in all directions.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 04:40:28 AM
Interesting discussion of the cosmological constant linked in that last article, and related.  http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/17/einsteins-greatest-blunder-was-really-a-blunder/ (http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/17/einsteins-greatest-blunder-was-really-a-blunder/)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 05:02:48 AM
Lori, can you explain the braided rings to me, then?  Has anyone worked the math out and survived peer review?

Closer observation has revealed that the rings only appear braided and really just have a number of clumps in them. The clumps are thought to be due to the presence of a large number of hard to detect mini-moons that inhabit and influence the rings.

Quote
Why energy?

Because so far scientists have seen nothing in the universe not composed of matter/energy. As far as we can tell, that's what reality is--matter and energy. If scientists find something new happening, there are two basic ideas: new matter/energy, or new laws. There's no reason to think any other option is meaningful at this point.

So yes, dark energy could be some heretofore unknown consequence of general relativity, but so far the evidence doesn't suggest that. And when you have an incredibly successful theory that has passed every test thrown at it with stunning accuracy, there's not currently a good reason to believe new laws are necessary.

Think about the discovery of Neptune. Newton's laws predicted that Uranus would behave in a particular way--and it wasn't. This surprised a lot of scientists at the time, because people pretty much thought Newton's laws were perfect. Rather than abandon the theory, however, scientists proposed that there was simply data they were missing: a new planet perturbing Uranus' orbit. Lo and behold, math was done, predictions were made, and Neptune was discovered.

Basically the same thing has happened with dark energy. An anomaly was discovered. Math was done, predictions were made, and everything discovered so far in the CMB and in cosmic structure has pointed to dark energy as the culprit. The only difference is that scientists haven't figured out exactly what dark energy is yet. But seriously, it's only been 16 years.

New laws are possible. And new laws do make their way into physics. After all, it turned out Newton's laws weren't perfect. They couldn't account for Mercury's precession, famously. At the time, just like with Uranus, astronomers predicted the presence of another planet. But it turned out they were wrong. What was needed was a modification to gravity. There's an important difference here, though. Einstein didn't invent general relativity to account for a simple astronomical anomaly. General relativity accounts for a gigantic amount of large-scale (and some small-scale) behavior.

The same will have to be true for any law that can explain the effect of dark energy. If you're going to modify gravity, it's going to have far-reaching consequences that make testable predictions. But the problem is that a century's worth of data has confirmed general relativity in essentially every regime but the quantum one. There's very little room for a new law of gravity that isn't quantum gravity. And if that's the case--well, you certainly can't claim scientists aren't working on that. Quantum gravity is an extremely active and vibrant field in theoretical physics.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on June 04, 2014, 06:06:14 AM
Lorizael, would you care to comment on my doubts regarding the original SNIa time-dilation conclusions back on page one, here is a link

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7876.msg44865#msg44865 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7876.msg44865#msg44865)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 07:42:18 PM
So dark energy is more or less the cosmological constant?  Nobody really understands the exactly what the latter is either, but it's at least a familiar concept - and the name doesn't trigger my bullcrap detector.  Bad move w/ the new name, cosmology community.  Some of us can think for ourselves and are buzzword-averse...  ;clenchedteeth
Title: Black Hole 'Doughnut' Theory Has Holes In It, New Study Suggests (INFOGRAPHIC)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 08:05:47 PM
Black Hole 'Doughnut' Theory Has Holes In It, New Study Suggests (INFOGRAPHIC)
The Huffington Post
By Jacqueline Howard | Posted:  06/02/2014 9:51 am EDT    Updated:  06/02/2014 9:59 am EDT   


(http://i1.huffpost.com/gen/1814512/thumbs/n-BLACK-HOLE-DOUGHNUT-large570.jpg)
Data from NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, or WISE, have shown that galaxies with hidden supermassive black holes tend to clump together in space more than the galaxies with exposed, or unobscured, black holes. This enhanced image shows galaxies clumped together in the Fornax cluster, located 60 million light-years from Earth. | NASA/JPL-Caltech



Why are some black holes hidden behind space dust? That's a complicated question -- but one astronomers thought they had figured out.

Now they're not so sure.

Black holes can't be spotted by the naked eye, of course, but their shape can be detected from the glow and heat released when gas falls into them -- this also indicates that a black hole is "active," because it basically gorges on surrounding gas material that fuels their growth. And astronomers believe that every galaxy has a black hole at its center.

At one time astronomers believed all black holes were surrounded by doughnut-shaped structures of thick dust. They thought that, depending upon their orientation and the angle at which they were viewed, these "toruses" could completely obscure some black holes.

According to this so-called "unified model" of black holes, all black holes are similar in nature -- and a black hole viewed edge-on might be obscured, while a black hole viewed face-on might be visible.

Now a study based on new observations made by NASA's Wide-Field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) space telescope suggests that something other than dusty "doughnuts" may determine whether a black hole is hidden.

"The unified theory was proposed to explain the complexity of what astronomers were seeing," study co-author Daniel Stern, a project scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., said in a written statement. "It seems that simple model may have been too simple. As Einstein said, models should be made 'as simple as possible, but not simpler.'"

For the study, Stern and his colleagues analyzed 170,000 galaxies from the WISE data and then measured the extent to which those galaxies formed clusters. If the unified theory were true, the visible and "hidden" black holes at the galaxies' centers should be randomly distributed among the galaxies, whether or not the galaxies were clumped together. But the researchers found something unexpected: galaxies with hidden black holes are more clumped together than those with visible black holes.


(Story continues below)
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1814505/thumbs/o-BLACK-HOLES-DOUGHNUTS-570.jpg?1)
This infographic explains a popular theory of active supermassive black holes, referred to as the unified model -- and how new data from NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, or WISE, conflict with the model. Astronomers say the model could still be correct but needs adjusting to account for the unexpected observations by WISE.


"Our finding revealed a new feature about active black holes we never knew before, yet the details remain a mystery," study co-author Lin Yan, a researcher at NASA's Infrared Processing and Analysis Center based at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, Calif., said in the written statement. "We hope our work will inspire future studies to better understand these fascinating objects."

The study has been accepted for publication in the Astrophysical Journal.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/02/doughnut-theory-black-holes-infographic_n_5380823.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/02/doughnut-theory-black-holes-infographic_n_5380823.html)
Title: Gravitational Wave Discovery Challenged By Two New Studies
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 09:11:52 PM
Gravitational Wave Discovery Challenged By Two New Studies
Nature
By Ron Cowen | Posted: 06/04/2014 8:29 am EDT  |  Updated: 06/04/2014 8:59 am EDT


(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1832777/thumbs/n-BICEP2-TELESCOPE-large570.jpg)
The sun sets behind BICEP2 (in the foreground) and the South Pole Telescope (in the background). | Steffen Richter/Harvard University



The astronomers who earlier this year announced that they had evidence of primordial gravitational waves jumped the gun, two independent analyses suggest.

The papers, published on the arXiv preprint repository, propose that the original analysis did not properly account for the confounding effects of galactic dust. Although further observations may yet confirm the findings, independent researchers now say they no longer think that the original data constituted significant evidence.

"Based on what we know right now, we have no evidence for or against gravitational waves," says Uros Seljak, a cosmologist at the University of California, Berkeley, and co-author of one of the latest studies.

Astronomers using the BICEP2 radio tele­scope at the South Pole announced in March that they had found a faint twisting pattern in the polarization of the cosmic microwave background (CMB), the radiation left over from the Big Bang. This pattern, they said, was evidence for primordial gravitational waves ripples in the fabric of space-time generated in the Universe's first moments. The findings were widely hailed as confirmation of the theory of cosmic inflation, which holds that the cosmos ballooned in size during the first fraction of a second after the Big Bang.

But the new analyses suggest that the twisting patterns in the CMB polarization could just as easily be accounted for by dust in the Milky Way.

The papers follow a presentation three weeks ago by Raphael Flauger, a theoretical physicist at New York University and the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, who re-examined a map of galactic dust used by BICEP2. Flauger concluded that the BICEP2 researchers had probably underestimated the fraction of polarization caused by dust in the map, which was compiled from data from the European Space Agency's Planck spacecraft. Flauger says that when the dust is fully accounted for, the signal that can be attributed to gravitational waves either vanishes or is greatly diminished.

"I had thought that the [BICEP2] result was very secure," said Alan Guth, the cosmologist who first proposed the inflation concept in 1980, after learning about Flauger's talk. "Now the situation has changed," added Guth, who works at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge.

The BICEP2 researchers have argued that the Planck map figured in only one of the six models that they used to examine the role of dust. But in a paper posted to the arXiv server on 28 May, Flauger and his co-authors David Spergel and Colin Hill, both of Princeton University in New Jersey, say that the five other models are based on a low estimate between 3.5% and 5% of the fraction of total polarization caused by galactic dust. Extrapolation from a more detailed map, released last month by the Planck team, suggests that the fraction is closer to 815%, Spergel explains.

With those updated numbers, he says,there's no evidence for the detection of gravitational waves. But a final determination cannot be made until a more precise dust map, expected to be released by the Planck team in October, is available, he adds.

In the other analysis, Seljak and Michael Mortonson, a cosmologist also at the University of California, Berkeley, re-examined BICEP2 data on how the polarization signal varies with the frequency of the microwaves it detects. The BICEP2 team had checked its results against data recorded at lower frequency by an older telescope, BICEP1. They found that the intensity of polarization did not change from one frequency to the other in the way expected if it were caused by dust, and concluded that the data favoured gravitational waves over dust by an 11-to-1 margin.

But Seljak and Mortonson say that the BICEP2 analysis did not exclude data on small spatial scales, or fractions of degrees of the sky. That is a problem, Seljak says, because on these small scales, gravitational lensing in which the path of light bends around massive objects exactly mimics the twisting polarization pattern that gravitational waves imprint on larger spatial scales.

Accounting for lensing,the primordial gravity-wave signal is preferred to dust with odds of less than two to one in other words, not significant odds at all, says Seljak.

BICEP2 co-leader James Bock, a physicist at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, says that although his group's main paper has been revised based on many referee comments and resubmitted for publication, the evidence for gravitational waves is certainly not being retracted. The BICEP2 results are basically unchanged, he says.

Further observations may yet see the cosmic ripples emerge from the dust. It is possible that forthcoming data from several observatories including the Keck Array, a telescope at the South Pole built by the BICEP2 teamand the Planck team's full-sky map of CMB polarization will confirm that a signal is there, although perhaps not as strong as first suggested.

This story originally appeared in Nature News (http://www.nature.com/news).


http://www.huffingtonpost.com////gravitational-wave-discovery-challenged_n_5440197.html?utm_hp_ref=science (http://www.huffingtonpost.com////gravitational-wave-discovery-challenged_n_5440197.html?utm_hp_ref=science)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 09:55:08 PM
Lorizael, would you care to comment on my doubts regarding the original SNIa time-dilation conclusions back on page one, here is a link

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7876.msg44865#msg44865 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7876.msg44865#msg44865)


It's a little misleading to say that 2 out of 3 tests are coming back negative. Astronomers have looked for time dilation in a lot of supernovae but not a lot of GRBs or quasars. The reason for this is the accepted reliability of 1a supernovae as standard candles. They're not perfectly reliable, no, which is why the studies done on them have a wide variety of criteria researchers can use to rule out a supernova as a good candidate. For example, there are anomalous super-Chandrasekhar mass supernovae with much greater than expected luminosities, but far lower kinetic energies. This difference is kinetic energy is a red flag that lets researchers toss out particular candidates.

Quasars and GRBs, however, have far more problems in the reliability of their light curves, so they haven't been looked at as often for use as standard candles or confirmation of time dilation. That they don't exhibit the expected level of time dilation suggests either that time dilation isn't occurring or that we simply don't have good data on GRBs and quasars. Cosmologists accept the latter interpretation because it is not time dilation alone that lends support to the theory expansion and the Big Bang. In fact, there is a wealth of evidence that supports the reality of the Big Bang and the metric expansion of space.

To begin with, general relativity itself suggests the Big Bang. The problem that originally led Einstein to introduce a cosmological constant is easily solved by assuming an expanding universe. That the universe is cold now and was once hot (as exhibited by the CMB) is evidence of the Big Bang. That distant galaxies are progressively redshifted is evidence of the Big Bang. That space is virtually flat on cosmic scales is evidence of the Big Bang. That the energy density of the universe was much greater in the past is evidence of the Big Bang. That hydrogen and helium are the most abundant elements is evidence of the Big Bang. That galaxies are clustered the way they are is evidence of the Big Bang.

Essentially every piece of cosmological data suggests the Big Bang. Some pieces also suggest other theories, but when taken as a whole, it is the Big Bang that has the most solid observational foundation. So an anomaly in unreliable sets of data is not really trouble for the theory. It's a question that needs to be further examined, studied, and answered, but by itself it cannot tear down all the support that the Big Bang theory has.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 09:56:05 PM
So dark energy is more or less the cosmological constant?  Nobody really understands the exactly what the latter is either, but it's at least a familiar concept - and the name doesn't trigger my bullcrap detector.  Bad move w/ the new name, cosmology community.  Some of us can think for ourselves and are buzzword-averse...  ;clenchedteeth

There are a couple models of dark energy, but the leading candidate is essentially a cosmological constant--energy associated with space itself.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 04, 2014, 10:41:06 PM
So dark energy is more or less the cosmological constant?  Nobody really understands the exactly what the latter is either, but it's at least a familiar concept - and the name doesn't trigger my bullcrap detector.  Bad move w/ the new name, cosmology community.  Some of us can think for ourselves and are buzzword-averse...  ;clenchedteeth

There are a couple models of dark energy, but the leading candidate is essentially a cosmological constant--energy associated with space itself.

So the proof of a cosmological constant is an anomaly? 
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 04, 2014, 10:59:59 PM
Dark energy was an anomaly in 1998, but it's significantly more than that now. Its effects are felt in the supernova data, the CMB, large-scale structure, and elsewhere. The universe would not look the way it does today without some source of mass-energy perturbing it, and the leading candidate for that mass-energy is something akin to a cosmological constant.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on June 05, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
I wonder how the observed "background mass" of the Universe would look with a gazillion starships flitting between stars at near lightspeed...
I don't know if this has been refuted since I first read it, but the faster something goes in interstellar space, the more massive it appears to be.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 05, 2014, 02:44:06 PM
I still wonder about the bookkeeping for that...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 05, 2014, 07:37:00 PM
Any way He said they ruled out dust and other explanations without explaining.

The third post goes into some detail about why dust cannot be the culprit. It can't be normal dust because normal dust wouldn't affect all wavelengths of light equally the way observed dimming appears. And it can't be an unknown type of grey dust because that would cause a steadily increasing level of dimming the farther out you get, which is not what astronomers actually observe.

Quote
I'm still wondering if there aren't gravity waves and magnetic fields, or some other such residue of the big bang out there affecting the red shift in la supernovas .

There are certainly gravity waves acting on large scales, but cosmologists have pretty good models of what sort of gravity waves would have been produced by the Big Bang, and there's no evidence at present to suggest that could account for extremely uniform dimming of distant supernovae. Moreover, there's significantly more evidence than supernovae alone pointing to dark energy.

Magnetic fields are extremely unlikely, however, because there's no good reason why magnetic fields would produce a uniform effect across the universe. Magnetic fields are only going to exist in the vicinity of charged particles, and which means they're only going to occur in areas of high density. So any effect from a magnetic field would depend on where you look, and to date the expansion of the universe looks identical in all directions.

In the third one, I understood the grey dust discussion to mean that they have ruled out matter. Beyond that I didn't understand it or the math.

I suppose I should have thought the magnetism example through. I understand that it wouldn't be consistent, and that it would require matter in the vicinity.

Yeah, I suppose there are enough astro-physicists studying gravity to figure it out.

I didn't get that there are more effects than super-novas. If that's true, then I guess you've convinced me that it's the best explanation, and it's more a matter of grasping the concept.

The name dark energy  sounds too much like "the Dark Side of The Force". Maybe that's my problem. Quarks, Quasars and Quantums sound like latin/science to me. Dark energy sounds like mysticism. A constant universal energy field sounds like a description of God.

I'm totally lost when it comes to the part about dark energy having negative pressure. What does that mean in this context? I assume they aren't comparing it to Earth's atmosphere.





Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 05, 2014, 07:58:10 PM
Lori, can you explain the braided rings to me, then?  Has anyone worked the math out and survived peer review?

Closer observation has revealed that the rings only appear braided and really just have a number of clumps in them. The clumps are thought to be due to the presence of a large number of hard to detect mini-moons that inhabit and influence the rings.

Quote
Why energy?

Because so far scientists have seen nothing in the universe not composed of matter/energy. As far as we can tell, that's what reality is--matter and energy. If scientists find something new happening, there are two basic ideas: new matter/energy, or new laws. There's no reason to think any other option is meaningful at this point.

So yes, dark energy could be some heretofore unknown consequence of general relativity, but so far the evidence doesn't suggest that. And when you have an incredibly successful theory that has passed every test thrown at it with stunning accuracy, there's not currently a good reason to believe new laws are necessary.

Think about the discovery of Neptune. Newton's laws predicted that Uranus would behave in a particular way--and it wasn't. This surprised a lot of scientists at the time, because people pretty much thought Newton's laws were perfect. Rather than abandon the theory, however, scientists proposed that there was simply data they were missing: a new planet perturbing Uranus' orbit. Lo and behold, math was done, predictions were made, and Neptune was discovered.

Basically the same thing has happened with dark energy. An anomaly was discovered. Math was done, predictions were made, and everything discovered so far in the CMB and in cosmic structure has pointed to dark energy as the culprit. The only difference is that scientists haven't figured out exactly what dark energy is yet. But seriously, it's only been 16 years.

New laws are possible. And new laws do make their way into physics. After all, it turned out Newton's laws weren't perfect. They couldn't account for Mercury's precession, famously. At the time, just like with Uranus, astronomers predicted the presence of another planet. But it turned out they were wrong. What was needed was a modification to gravity. There's an important difference here, though. Einstein didn't invent general relativity to account for a simple astronomical anomaly. General relativity accounts for a gigantic amount of large-scale (and some small-scale) behavior.

The same will have to be true for any law that can explain the effect of dark energy. If you're going to modify gravity, it's going to have far-reaching consequences that make testable predictions. But the problem is that a century's worth of data has confirmed general relativity in essentially every regime but the quantum one. There's very little room for a new law of gravity that isn't quantum gravity. And if that's the case--well, you certainly can't claim scientists aren't working on that. Quantum gravity is an extremely active and vibrant field in theoretical physics.

So the braiding of Saturn's rings turned out to be an optical illusion, and the surprising orbit of Uranus turned out to be more of something we already know- a planet. 

That's the other reason why I was skeptical of dark energy. I presumed a red shift was either an optical illusion of some kind, or something out there that  we've found elsewhere in the universe.

If not matter, then something else must be affecting the light, such as a force.

But if not that could something else have been distorted in the Big Bang? Time, Space, or Energy?

Explosions have shock waves, atmosphere condensed to the hardness of steel.

Here in the middle of the continent, we still get earthquakes from the crust decompressing from the ice age.

Could something we know have been compressed to the point of becoming a lens?

Could a decompression account for the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 05, 2014, 10:39:38 PM
I wonder how the observed "background mass" of the Universe would look with a gazillion starships flitting between stars at near lightspeed...
I don't know if this has been refuted since I first read it, but the faster something goes in interstellar space, the more massive it appears to be.

It actually is more massive. So with a bunch of relativistic spaceships traveling around, the local gravity would be different, and we would be able to tell based on how the stars were moving and so on. (We probably wouldn't get that it was spaceships, but we'd know something was there.)

But here's the thing to remember--all of those spaceships were made from something, and all of the energy used to push them up to relativistic speeds existed in some other form before it got put into the spaceships. Mass-energy is conserved, so there isn't any "more" of it around when objects are moving quickly; it's just in a different configuration. And in general relativity, whether mass and energy curve space in identical ways.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 05, 2014, 10:41:14 PM
I'm totally lost when it comes to the part about dark energy having negative pressure. What does that mean in this context? I assume they aren't comparing it to Earth's atmosphere.

I honestly can't help you here, unfortunately. I don't yet have the math or the physics knowledge to understand--let alone explain--why this is the case.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 05, 2014, 10:45:08 PM
So the braiding of Saturn's rings turned out to be an optical illusion, and the surprising orbit of Uranus turned out to be more of something we already know- a planet. 

That's the other reason why I was skeptical of dark energy. I presumed a red shift was either an optical illusion of some kind, or something out there that  we've found elsewhere in the universe.

If not matter, then something else must be affecting the light, such as a force.

But if not that could something else have been distorted in the Big Bang? Time, Space, or Energy?

Explosions have shock waves, atmosphere condensed to the hardness of steel.

Here in the middle of the continent, we still get earthquakes from the crust decompressing from the ice age.

Could something we know have been compressed to the point of becoming a lens?

Could a decompression account for the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe?

As far as cosmologists are able to tell, the most profound distortions of the Big Bang are the local "clumps" of matter that formed--galaxies, stars, planets, you, me.

(BU, is there a multi-quote function somewhere I'm missing?)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 06, 2014, 12:01:23 AM


As far as cosmologists are able to tell, the most profound distortions of the Big Bang are the local "clumps" of matter that formed--galaxies, stars, planets, you, me.


I'm much denser than you are.  :P

Once again, thank you for all of the explanations. I've learned more science than ... well, if you don't count medical science that I had a personal interest in... I've learned more science from this thread and it's links than I have in the last decade.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 06, 2014, 01:05:30 AM
(BU, is there a multi-quote function somewhere I'm missing?)
When you hit Quote, it shows up in the Quick-Reply, right?  You can just do that over and over before you post.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on June 06, 2014, 07:06:48 AM


It's a little misleading to say that 2 out of 3 tests are coming back negative. Astronomers have looked for time dilation in a lot of supernovae but not a lot of GRBs or quasars. The reason for this is the accepted reliability of 1a supernovae as standard candles. They're not perfectly reliable, no, which is why the studies done on them have a wide variety of criteria researchers can use to rule out a supernova as a good candidate. For example, there are anomalous super-Chandrasekhar mass supernovae with much greater than expected luminosities, but far lower kinetic energies. This difference is kinetic energy is a red flag that lets researchers toss out particular candidates.

I don't find it misleading, it is a valid test, perhaps not a test of the same quality as the SNIa as you claim but doesn't mean it can be ignored.  While I agree that GRBs are very new phenomena the Quasar is quite old and their should be no shortage of study on them, granted Quasars are not believed to be standard candles, but this isn't required because they pulsate and we can simply look at the average pulsation rate vs Redshift and the time-dilation would readily pop-out of a large sample size if it was really their, we should have more faith in that large data set then the vastly smaller and perhaps overly pruned set of SNIa's?


Quasars and GRBs, however, have far more problems in the reliability of their light curves, so they haven't been looked at as often for use as standard candles or confirmation of time dilation. That they don't exhibit the expected level of time dilation suggests either that time dilation isn't occurring or that we simply don't have good data on GRBs and quasars. Cosmologists accept the latter interpretation because it is not time dilation alone that lends support to the theory expansion and the Big Bang. In fact, there is a wealth of evidence that supports the reality of the Big Bang and the metric expansion of space.

To begin with, general relativity itself suggests the Big Bang. The problem that originally led Einstein to introduce a cosmological constant is easily solved by assuming an expanding universe. That the universe is cold now and was once hot (as exhibited by the CMB) is evidence of the Big Bang. That distant galaxies are progressively redshifted is evidence of the Big Bang. That space is virtually flat on cosmic scales is evidence of the Big Bang. That the energy density of the universe was much greater in the past is evidence of the Big Bang. That hydrogen and helium are the most abundant elements is evidence of the Big Bang. That galaxies are clustered the way they are is evidence of the Big Bang.

Essentially every piece of cosmological data suggests the Big Bang. Some pieces also suggest other theories, but when taken as a whole, it is the Big Bang that has the most solid observational foundation. So an anomaly in unreliable sets of data is not really trouble for the theory. It's a question that needs to be further examined, studied, and answered, but by itself it cannot tear down all the support that the Big Bang theory has.

I would argue that we have a lot of observations that do not disagree with the BB theory, but I see very little if anything (outside SNIa which I'm doubtful of) that actually constitutes a successful TEST of the BB.  I will admit that it is "the best theory" which has the most agreement with observation but it is perfectly normal to have a theory which we KNOW is dead wrong while still acknowledging that it is the best we have right now, GR is such a theory.  I'd argue that BB theory fails too many key tests to be considered anything other then a vague place-holder right now.

Outside of time-dilation their is another property of expanding space geometry which is very simple and direct, distant objects should appear to have their angular size stretched and the surface brightness diminished in proportion to the spacial expansion.  This is call the Tolman surface-brightness.  When galaxies are examined we also fails to get the effect BB theory requires, and the defense offered that galaxies were brighter and smaller in the past it just the right amount to cancel out the expected effects is quite a stretch.



To run down some of the other big piece of evidence and show that they aren't really as strong as described.

Redshift - Light could easily be stretched by another phenomenon in empty space, this is called 'Tired Light' and while we have no theoretical model for WHY such a thing might happen we can test between them by looking for time-dilation which would occur in BB but not in a Tired Light model.  But the existence of Redshift in and of itself simply rules out any model which lacks one of the two mechanisms that could produce it.

Primordial Elements - The hydrogen/helium ratio along with other light elements can be arrived at by the BB theories hot dense plasma rapidly expanding plasma with fair accuracy only when Dark Matter was included.  But while BB plasma starts out as a ludicrously hot quark-gluon soup it is just the tail end of this process in which you have a proton/neutron plasma where the element mix is set and the temperature at that point is not beyond the range of what could be generated by know stellar phenomena.  So whole elemental abundance tells us the primordial elements derive from a hot plasma and the BB has in it a compatible plasma, it is not at all demonstrated that is the only possible plasma that could do the job.

Flat Space - Before Flatness was confirmed it was a very open question in cosmology what the curvature would be, but it was not at all felt to be a prediction of the BB theory for it to be one way or the other.  Indeed positive and negative curvatures were thought to be very probable and that the curvature would tell us the universes long-term fate (flatness gives an ever expanding but perpetually slowing expansion) but this future was then overturned with the Dark-Energy discover to give a future equivalent to a negative? curvature.  In any case flatness makes sense for a non-expanding universe too, so their is no Test of BB vs reasonable alternatives (non flatness would have actually supported the BB). 

CMB - This is probably the second best piece of evidence for the BB as the theory clearly would predict that kind of radiation.  Still it is just Black-body radiation (which is the most non-informative radiation we can receive) that is being red shifted, we can't even tell what it's temperature was at release because a shifted black-body spectrum remains a perfect black-body spectrum just with a lower temperature fingerprint.  It would take something rather weird to produce black-body radiation in a uniform non-expanding universe as their presumably isn't a surface at some finite distance to scatter off of and if it's coming from all of space the spectrum should overlap and no longer be a black-body.  So score 1 for BB here.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 06, 2014, 03:56:33 PM
So "BB theory" always means "Black Body theory", rather than "Big Bang theory" ?
Title: 4 in 10 Americans Believe God Created Earth 10,000 Years Ago
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 06, 2014, 04:08:08 PM
Quote
4 in 10 Americans Believe God Created Earth 10,000 Years Ago
LiveScience.com
By Tia Ghose, Staff Writer  2 hours ago



Four in 10 Americans believe God created the Earth and anatomically modern humans, less than 10,000 years ago, according to a new Gallup poll.

About half of Americans believe humans evolved over millions of years, with most of those people saying that God guided the process. Religious, less educated, and older respondents were likelier to espouse a young Earth creationist view — that life was created some 6,000 to 10,000 years ago — according to the poll.

Though the percentage of people who believe in creationism has changed little over the decades, the percentage of people who believe humans evolved without God has more than doubled, and the percentage who believe in God-guided evolution has decreased.


Supernatural beliefs

Americans consistently report high levels of belief in the supernatural. About 80 percent of Americans believe in miracles and three-quarters believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, according to a 2013 Pew survey.

At the same time, while most Americans have a healthy respect for science, many could use a refresher course in the basics. For instance, a 2014 National Science Foundation study found that only three out of four Americans know that the Earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa, and a large percentage didn't know the Earth's core was hot. Large percentages didn't know that the father's sperm determines a baby's sex.


Evolving views?

As part of the Values and Beliefs Survey, Gallup called a random sample of 1,028 landline and cellphone users and asked them which of three descriptions most closely matched their beliefs: that humans have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process; that humans have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process; or that God created human beings pretty much in their present form sometime in the last 10,000 years or so. Gallup has asked people similar questions since 1982.

About 42 percent espoused the creationist view presented, whereas 31 percent said God guided the evolutionary process, and just 19 said they believe evolution operated without God involved.

Religion was positively tied to creationism beliefs, with more than two-thirds of those who attend weekly religious services espousing a belief in a young Earth, compared with just 23 percent of those who never go to church saying the same.

Just over a quarter of those with a college degree hold creationist beliefs, compared with 57 percent of people with such views who had at most a high-school education, the poll found.


Knowledge key

Most of the people who believed in evolution also said they were knowledgeable about the theory, whereas those who said they were not too familiar with the theory also were less likely to believe in it.

Americans' belief in creationism is at odds with scientific consensus. Almost all scientists who study human origins believe that we evolved from other life-forms over millions of years. In fact, humans, or individuals in the genus Homo, are said to have emerged on Earth some 2.5 million years ago.
http://news.yahoo.com/4-10-americans-believe-god-created-earth-10-122212736.html (http://news.yahoo.com/4-10-americans-believe-god-created-earth-10-122212736.html)

---

Inept questions, if phrased as the article has them...
Title: Re: 4 in 10 Americans Believe God Created Earth 10,000 Years Ago
Post by: Yitzi on June 06, 2014, 04:36:08 PM
Inept questions, if phrased as the article has them...

Unfortunately, that seems to be the usual in most of the social sciences...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 06, 2014, 04:40:05 PM
Variance in religious/ philosophical / prehistory  views disturb me far less than this-

At the same time, while most Americans have a healthy respect for science, many could use a refresher course in the basics. For instance, a 2014 National Science Foundation study found that only three out of four Americans know that the Earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa, and a large percentage didn't know the Earth's core was hot. Large percentages didn't know that the father's sperm determines a baby's sex.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 06, 2014, 04:44:38 PM
That's third grade science they're failing, right there...
Title: Physicists Debate Discovery of Gravitational Ripples from the Big Bang
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 06, 2014, 04:57:24 PM
Quote
Physicists Debate Discovery of Gravitational Ripples from the Big Bang
SPACE.com
By Tanya Lewis, Staff Writer  5 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/b2r7UWiJGFmNL..tfpAipw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM1MTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Physicists_Debate_Discovery_of_Gravitational-9371051565301aaefed1e9d771a89ca8)
This artist's illustration depicts the creation of gravitational waves from two orbiting black holes as ripples in space-time. In March 2014, astronomers announced the first detection of long-sought gravitational waves



NEW YORK – The physics world was agog in March over the announcement that astronomers had possibly found ripples in space-time from the earliest moments of the universe. But some scientists now question whether the findings may be nothing more than galactic dust.

If the finding of these ripples, or primordial gravitational waves, is confirmed, it would represent the best evidence yet for inflation, the idea that the universe underwent an explosive burst in size in the earliest fractions of a second after the Big Bang. If the findings are discounted, inflation could still be correct, but scientists must provide other evidence.

A panel of well-known cosmologists debated the discovery and the model of cosmic inflation itself at an event here on Friday (May 30) at the World Science Festival, moderated by theoretical physicist Brian Greene of Columbia University in New York.


A rapid expansion

One of the panelists, cosmologist Alan Guth of MIT, developed the hypothesis of inflation in 1980 to explain the large-scale structure of the universe. Another panelist, cosmologist Andrei Linde of Stanford University, helped develop the model of inflation.

The Big Bang left behind remnant heat, known as the cosmic microwave background (CMB). Radio astronomer Robert Wilson, who was in the audience, discovered the CMB along with physicist Arno Penzias in 1964. The CMB contains tiny temperature variations, but is remarkably uniform, which might be expected if the universe expanded from a very small region.

If inflation occurred, scientists suspect it might have left an imprint on the CMB, produced by gravitational waves, which would appear as a swirly pattern in the CMB. John Kovac, an astronomer at Harvard University — another of the panelists — and colleagues claimed to have detected this pattern in March using the BICEP2 instrument at the South Pole.


Controversy brewing

But since Kovac's team announced its findings, the results have come under fire from scientists who question whether the team had ruled out other possible sources that would produce the same swirly signature, such as galactic dust. In fact, two independent analyses of the data now suggest it could be accounted for by dust in the Milky Way.

In the panel discussion, Kovac admitted some uncertainty, but defended the findings. "The pattern is not there by random chance," Kovac said. His team has further analyzed their data and feels "very confident" the results were not spurious, he said.

But not everyone took the controversy lightly, including cosmologist Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, who helped develop the model of inflation but now believes in an alternative model of the universe that suggests the existence of higher dimensions. Steinhardt took issue with how Kovac's team characterized their findings in March, saying that they were too confident in their statements at the time.

Other groups are also looking for these ripples from the Big Bang, including balloon-based and space-based telescopes. The European Space Agency's Planck satellite is expected to release its own data very soon, possibly in the next three weeks, and should offer strong evidence one way or the other.


Exciting times

Despite having helped develop it, Steinhardt now questions inflation itself. He said the theory was in some ways not falsifiable, which veers closer to the realm of metaphysics.

But inflation is still the most widespread theory for how the universe began, Alan Guth said. Andre Linde compared inflation to democracy, which has been called "the worst form of government there is, except for all the other forms."

As the evening panel concluded, Linde steered the discussion to a more hopeful note, about what it means to be a part of the endeavor to understand the universe in these times.

"There's something very exciting happening right now," he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/physicists-debate-discovery-gravitational-ripples-big-bang-103450332.html (http://news.yahoo.com/physicists-debate-discovery-gravitational-ripples-big-bang-103450332.html)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 06, 2014, 06:00:52 PM
Headline: Steinhardt says Inflation Theory Overblown  :P
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 06, 2014, 06:09:45 PM
That's third grade science they're failing, right there...

I'm okay if they're not teaching baby building to third graders.
The fact that so many adults don't know what they're doing, not so much.

So, if many believe that the sun orbits the Earth, same as the moon, I'm presuming they don't know why we have seasons and years, either. Well, at least they don't think the Earth is flat.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Dio on June 06, 2014, 06:24:51 PM
That's third grade science they're failing, right there...

I'm okay if they're not teaching baby building to third graders.
The fact that so many adults don't know what they're doing, not so much.

So, if many believe that the sun orbits the Earth, same as the moon, I'm presuming they don't know why we have seasons and years, either. Well, at least they don't think the Earth is flat.
Some of these individuals appear to be ignorant of many basic scientific facts. Does Gallup call many of the same people year after year asking these types of questions? Can I make it anymore clear? One thousand and twenty-six people are not a representative sampling of everyone in the United States of America.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on June 06, 2014, 07:38:18 PM
That's third grade science they're failing, right there...

I'm okay if they're not teaching baby building to third graders.
The fact that so many adults don't know what they're doing, not so much.

So, if many believe that the sun orbits the Earth, same as the moon, I'm presuming they don't know why we have seasons and years, either. Well, at least they don't think the Earth is flat.
Some of these individuals appear to be ignorant of many basic scientific facts. Does Gallup call many of the same people year after year asking these types of questions? Can I make it anymore clear? One thousand and twenty-six people are not a representative sampling of everyone in the United States of America.

Actually, 1026 is a pretty decent sample size; with a 75% rate in the population, the standard error with a sample size of 1026 (assuming a much larger population) will be around 1.35%, so you shouldn't be off by too much.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on June 07, 2014, 02:47:47 AM
Remember a LOT of people in a representative sample are going to be GEEZERS, 65+, who were educated in the  1950's or earlier, lots of these things were either unknown or were not considered 'basic' back then.  Then account for their decades of non-usage and their senile brains and it would be a miracle if most seniors know ANY science what so ever.

You really need demographic breakdowns to understand most pole numbers like this.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Dio on June 07, 2014, 03:09:02 AM
I will admit Yitzi is right about 1026 being a decent sample size. However, as Impaler stated, additional information regarding who was polled would help improve the study's quality.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on June 07, 2014, 07:55:03 PM
Remember a LOT of people in a representative sample are going to be GEEZERS, 65+, who were educated in the  1950's or earlier, lots of these things were either unknown or were not considered 'basic' back then.  Then account for their decades of non-usage and their senile brains and it would be a miracle if most seniors know ANY science what so ever.

It was those 'old geezers', science knowledge notwithstanding, that rebuild and enhanced our technoligical base to where we stand today after the wars of the fourties-fifties. :P
Essentially, you're talking about my fathers generation, and I can say from personal experience quite a number of them are still busy with technical or scientific matters, even after retirement.
At least, in my acquintance circle that is. :D
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 07, 2014, 09:41:54 PM
I don't find it misleading, it is a valid test, perhaps not a test of the same quality as the SNIa as you claim but doesn't mean it can be ignored.  While I agree that GRBs are very new phenomena the Quasar is quite old and their should be no shortage of study on them, granted Quasars are not believed to be standard candles, but this isn't required because they pulsate and we can simply look at the average pulsation rate vs Redshift and the time-dilation would readily pop-out of a large sample size if it was really their, we should have more faith in that large data set then the vastly smaller and perhaps overly pruned set of SNIa's?

It's not GRBs relative newness in cosmology that makes them bad for time dilation studies but their non-uniform behavior over time. This means you can't really calibrate your measurements with them.

As far as quasars are concerned, there's more to them than average pulsation rate and redshift. The problem with looking at average pulsation rate is that there are high and low frequency quasars contributing to an average rate that might not actually reflect reality. You could look at particular populations of quasars based on frequency, but the current thought from quasar experts is that a lot about the environment of a quasar plays into its variability. Two big examples are microlensing effects (which are going to hit you more the farther away a quasar is) and disturbances in the central accretion disk (which could easily vary with the evolution of galaxies). Again, this all leads to the conclusion that quasars are not (yet) reliable when it comes to measuring time dilation and that supernovae are the best candidate.

Quote
Outside of time-dilation their is another property of expanding space geometry which is very simple and direct, distant objects should appear to have their angular size stretched and the surface brightness diminished in proportion to the spacial expansion.  This is call the Tolman surface-brightness.  When galaxies are examined we also fails to get the effect BB theory requires, and the defense offered that galaxies were brighter and smaller in the past it just the right amount to cancel out the expected effects is quite a stretch.

So, first of all, there is good reason to believe galaxies were smaller and brighter in the past. But they don't have to be smaller and brighter by the exact amount necessary to offset the changing surface brightness. They just have to be different enough to muddy the water and make the resulting tests harder. Regardless, what I've read suggests the exact opposite of what you're saying: that those tests have been passed. In fact, the tests done to date have confirmed the metric expansion of space and ruled out an alternative theory--tired light. (More about that below.)

Quote
To run down some of the other big piece of evidence and show that they aren't really as strong as described.

Redshift - Light could easily be stretched by another phenomenon in empty space, this is called 'Tired Light' and while we have no theoretical model for WHY such a thing might happen we can test between them by looking for time-dilation which would occur in BB but not in a Tired Light model.  But the existence of Redshift in and of itself simply rules out any model which lacks one of the two mechanisms that could produce it.

Tired light was a popular idea in the past but has since been falsified by two big findings. One is, near as I can tell, the Tolman surface brightness test. The other is the fact that tired light as required to produce the current observations would affect the CMB in a particular way. Specifically, it would change the spectrum of the CMB. In a non-expanding universe, photon density from the CMB doesn't change with time. The result is that we would receive more photons of particular frequencies than we end up seeing. As you point out in your post, the CMB is a point in favor of the Big Bang, but it's also a point against this alternative theory.

As for the rest of your argument, I don't want to quote it all but I do want to counter your central premise: that the Big Bang is in agreement with observations but doesn't pass tests to confirm it. There are three traditional tests of the Big Bang theory, all of which have been confirmed with stunning accuracy.

One is the CMB, which even you concede.

The second is Big Bang nucleosynthesis. It's not the high temperatures that produced the needed fusion for nucleosynthesis but the exact timing of the universe's cooling combined with the initial allotment of protons, neutrons, electrons, and photons. The high temperatures of the Big Bang were in fact sufficient to produce much, much heavier elements than were produced, but didn't for a couple of reasons.

Because physicists know the masses of those particles very well, they can predict with ease how much of each you're gonna end up with at any particular temperature. So that's a known. The result is that the early universe was the radiation epoch, where photons far outnumbered matter. This actually prevented fusion for minutes, because any particles that did fuse together were blasted apart by energetic photons. And as all this happened, the slightly higher mass and instability of neutrons eventually led to there being far more protons than neutrons. By the time the universe had expanded--and cooled--enough for fusion to continue unabated, there were simply too many protons and not enough neutrons to create stable heavy elements.

This is a specific prediction of the Big Bang, specifying an exact ratio of hydrogen to helium (plus minuscule amounts of lithium and beryllium) and observations match it precisely. Other plasmas--with different initial numbers of protons, neutrons, and photons--would have produced different elements. So any competing theory has to explain high temperatures but a lack of heavier elements, and no theory to date does that.

The third major prediction of the Big Bang is the general structure of the universe. The earlier universe is more uniform and consists of small clumps of small galaxies. The later universe is much clumpier and consists of larger, more evolved galaxies and gigantic super clusters. This is exactly what you would in an expanding, cooling universe where gravity eventually comes to dominate.

So the Big Bang theory makes several explicit predictions that it passes and is in accordance with virtually all evidence to date. While there are some holes in the theory, most of those holes are a result of inadequate data, and the alternative theories which explain those holes fail spectacularly to model the universe as a whole.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on June 08, 2014, 05:13:42 AM
It seems that once any set of observations is sufficiently 'muddy' enough you feel that nothing can be drawn from it and their seems to be a consistent pattern that any data set that isn't in agreement with BB THUS muddy.

I can understand the desire for firm footings but it seems like a double standard because evidence that was previously considered firm like SNIa stand-candle nature is now very muddy to the point that people are seriously considering if mergers are the dominant progenitor to SNIa's.  Yet this data is now having concepts as outlandish as Dark Energy hung on it alone as if it was a gold standard.

You say their is a good reason to believe galaxies were smaller in the past, is that good reason the expansion of space under BB theory itself or the finite age of the universe under BB which requires modern galaxies to have formed from aggregation of smaller structures?  Both of these would be blatantly begging the question wouldn't they, we should look for evolution in galaxies first not assume it, and all the data I've seen (admittedly lay summaries) is that galaxies very Far back look identical (structurally) to modern ones and even have comparable metal contents.  Their is thus only a small window in the early universe where we can't see yet in which ALL the galaxy formation needs to occur, the galaxies produced need to be brighter then anything ever observed by many orders of magnitude.

Here is a paper by Eric Learner http://bigbangneverhappened.org/lernerpaper4.pdf (http://bigbangneverhappened.org/lernerpaper4.pdf) in which he examines galaxies out to z ~5 in the Hubble Ultra Deep field.  Prior studies look at far closer galaxies where the divergence between the two theories is much smaller.

Lastly you set up a false burden on me that I must 'model the universe as a whole' in order to have evidence that falsifies the BB theory be considered on it's merit.  You confuse the burden of falsifying current theory with that of overturning the current concordance theory with another theory.  We CAN have a concordance theory which is also know to be false, as I said earlier GR is exactly such a theory, known to be false for decades due to discrepancy with quantum effects, but still useful and the best thing we have.  Falsifying BB theory is completely independent of any other theories status or merit.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 08, 2014, 09:07:43 PM
Quote from: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The SN 2003fg (designated SNLS-03D3bb by the Canada-France-Hawaii Supernova Legacy Survey and sometimes called the "Champagne Supernova"), was an aberrant type Ia supernova discovered in 2003 and described in the journal Nature on September 21 of 2006.[1] It was nicknamed after the 1996 song "Champagne Supernova" by English rock band Oasis.[2]

It may potentially revolutionize thinking about the physics of supernovae because of its highly unusual nature, in particular the mass of its progenitor. According to the current understanding, white dwarf stars go supernova type Ia when they approach 1.4 solar masses (1.4 times the mass of the Sun), termed the Chandrasekhar limit; the explosion occurs when the central density grows to a critical 2 × 109 g/cm3. The mass added to the star is believed to be donated by a companion star, either from the companion's stellar wind or the overflow of its Roche lobe as it evolves.[3]

However, the progenitor of SN 2003fg reached two solar masses before exploding, more massive than thought possible. The primary mechanism invoked to explain how a white dwarf can exceed the Chandrasekhar mass is unusually rapid rotation; the added support effectively increases the critical mass. An alternative explanation is that the explosion resulted from the merger of two white dwarfs. The evidence indicating a higher than normal mass comes from the light curve and spectra of the supernova—while it was particularly overluminous the kinetic energies measured from ejecta signatures in the spectra appeared smaller than usual. The explanation is that more of the total kinetic energy budget was expended climbing out of the deeper than usual potential well.[4]

This is important because the brightness of type Ia supernovae was thought to be essentially uniform, making them useful "standard candles" in measuring distances in the universe. Such an aberrant type Ia supernova could throw distances and other scientific work into doubt; however, the light curve characteristics of SNLS-03D3bb were such that it would never have been mistaken for an ordinary high-redshift Type Ia supernova.

The discovery was made on the Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope and the Keck Telescope, both on Mauna Kea in Hawaii, and announced by researchers at the University of Toronto.[1] The supernova occurred in a galaxy some 4 billion light-years from Earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_2003fg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_2003fg)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on June 09, 2014, 05:17:13 AM
Super-Chandrasekhar SNs can occur from the either mergers of two white dwarfs OR the extra support of high spin and/or magnetic fields of a single mass-accreting dwarf.  The new equations were done by another Indian astronomers Upasana Das and Banibrata Mukhopadhyay, here is a summary.

http://www.2physics.com/2013/02/new-mass-limit-for-white-dwarfs.html (http://www.2physics.com/2013/02/new-mass-limit-for-white-dwarfs.html)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 11, 2014, 11:47:25 PM
Sorry for disappearing.

Imapler, I did not mean to imply that you must model the whole universe, because I didn't presume that you were in support of some other theory. You're linking to Lerner, so I suppose that means you believe in some version of plasma cosmology. Okay. My point about alternative theories such as plasma cosmology failing to model the universe as a whole is that, while it's certainly possible the big bang didn't happen, there are at present no viable theoretical alternatives.

And that almost makes the discussion of whether the theory is true moot. As far as working scientists are concerned, the big bang theory has immense explanatory power that makes it a valuable tool for doing astronomy and cosmology, whether it's right or wrong. This is its value as a theory.

Nevertheless, I think the stunning accuracy of its core predictions presents a strong case for it bearing some resemblance to reality. Yes, not every piece of data supports the big bang. And some of the evidence is weaker than astronomers would like. But it seems to me that the flaws in the theory at present are due mostly to our significant, but limited powers of observation. There are just things we're not very good at measuring yet, and some things we don't even have a way of measuring yet. For example, we have no idea if the neutrino background exists because there's at present no way to detect neutrinos with that little energy.

I have to repeat, I really don't think the case against the reliability of 1a supernovae is very strong. As I explained in my freakishly long post, astronomers are acutely aware of the fact that not all supernovae are created equal, and they don't attempt to use irregular supernovae as standard candles. There are differences in the spectra of the super chandrasekhars that are immediately obvious to astronomers. What this means is that there is a population of 1a supernovae that are known to be reliable because their output is pretty much exactly what theory predicts. This is the population that is used as a standard candle.

Objecting to that is akin to objecting to the use of quartz crystals in clocks because not all quartz crystals make good oscillators. The ones that do, do. The ones that don't, don't.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Impaler on June 12, 2014, 05:59:16 AM
BB Theory is not at all 'useful', indeed no Cosmology of any culture or any times has ever been useful in the material way that we expect 'science' to be, the satisfaction of 'knowing' is all we ever get from cosmology which makes all cosmology dangerously close to philosophy.  I think this is why we consistently feel TOO confident in our cosmology theories, they are not theories which ever get put to work like a real theory should, cosmology isn't allowed to have rough edges (and if it dose it's an observational problem never the fault of the theory).

In contrast GR is actually being used to do stuff like GPS satellites in which time-dilation is critical to the calculations that makes the system work.   Quantum Mechanics is used to design every Solar-Panel and is increasingly becoming relevant in Integrated circuits.  These theories don't need to be monolithic explanations of everything because they work in their respective territories, and the admission that GR is false doesn't prevent us from using it. 

But we do one more very important think because of falsification, we ACTIVELY search for replacement theories.  People who want to work on Quantum Gravity are not scoffed at and told 'that's impossible' the way anyone who dares to question BB theory is.  So I see a big difference in the kind of attitude that should exist around a falsified (but still taught and studied) BB theory vs the currently unquestionable status it has within the astronomical community.

Lastly wither regard to 'Plasma Cosmology', I do not really think it ever should have been called a cosmology, that set the whole theory/theories up for failure right from the get go because of this demand for total comprehensiveness that is the hallmark of cosmology.  Lerner really just has a scale-invariant plasma structure theory combined with an eternal meta-stable universe principle, plus a bunch of BB falsification evidence which is really separate.  This doesn't close the loop on a whole range of processes like fusion, radiation, black holes etc which would need to be recycled to create a meta-stable universe.

I agree with eternal meta-stability because I find a 'beginning' of time without an end asymmetrical and illogical (closed universes and eternal ones are both acceptable).  Also I think Learner makes good point the plasma physics has been short changed when considering structure formation (which is changing), but I don't go so far as to say Plasma is dominant as he dose.  Lerner's BB falsifications are what I find most intriguing (even more then his fusion device which really looks like it's got potential to succeed) but these should really have been presented on their own without presenting his alternatives because this inevitably moves us from a discussion of 'Is BB falsified?" to "Is BB replaced by this other theory?" which he is not going to win because he doesn't have a complete cosmology, a whole new cosmology that could win that debate is the work of a generation not just one man, falsifying BB is what can free a generation of astronomers to DO that work.

A far better way to approach is to go piece-meal with theories that explain particular things better then some aspect of BB theory.  The best example of this is MOND which can predict with incredible accuracy all the velocity and structure in galaxies without the freedom of putting dark matter wherever we wish, and on a cluster scale is only needs modest quantities of normal gas between galaxies to work at that level too.  MOND dose not presume to explain the whole cosmos, it just knee-caps one leg of the BB theory with a single very tight observation/model linkage that makes Dark matter look useless by comparison.  I foresee more such little theories emerging and a sticking, then only once these pieces are in place will they be fitted together into a new cosmology.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 13, 2014, 12:43:41 AM
BB Theory is not at all 'useful', indeed no Cosmology of any culture or any times has ever been useful in the material way that we expect 'science' to be, the satisfaction of 'knowing' is all we ever get from cosmology which makes all cosmology dangerously close to philosophy.  I think this is why we consistently feel TOO confident in our cosmology theories, they are not theories which ever get put to work like a real theory should, cosmology isn't allowed to have rough edges (and if it dose it's an observational problem never the fault of the theory).

In contrast GR is actually being used to do stuff like GPS satellites in which time-dilation is critical to the calculations that makes the system work.   Quantum Mechanics is used to design every Solar-Panel and is increasingly becoming relevant in Integrated circuits.  These theories don't need to be monolithic explanations of everything because they work in their respective territories, and the admission that GR is false doesn't prevent us from using it. 

I said Big Bang theory is useful for doing work in astronomy and cosmology, not that it was useful application-wise. That said, it can be argued that the Big Bang theory does have value to physics generally, and thus conceivably to things ordinary people might care about. For example, baryogenesis places constraints on C-symmetry and CP-symmetry, which could aid researchers in discovering post-Standard Model physics.

Also, QM has been useful for computers for 80 years now. Semiconductors wouldn't exist without our understanding of QM.

Quote
But we do one more very important think because of falsification, we ACTIVELY search for replacement theories.  People who want to work on Quantum Gravity are not scoffed at and told 'that's impossible' the way anyone who dares to question BB theory is.  So I see a big difference in the kind of attitude that should exist around a falsified (but still taught and studied) BB theory vs the currently unquestionable status it has within the astronomical community.

I'm not inclined to argue this point very strenuously, because I think it's largely one of perception. Before the CMB (and even after it) there was considerable debate about whether the theory was true within the astronomical community. Debate waned as more and more evidence came in. Yeah, scientists shouldn't be ostracized for their views, but at the same time science has limited resources that shouldn't be "wasted."

This is why serious scientists don't spend time trying to come up with free energy machines. Yes, it's possible thermo is wrong, but there's a great deal of evidence to support it so it's probably not worthwhile to waste resources pursuing alternatives. The Big Bang theory is not as solid as the laws of thermodynamics, but doing serious research into astronomy is somewhat more limited than other fields because there are only so many telescopes. I understand why scientists are hesitant to give up telescope time for less well regarded theories.

Quote
I agree with eternal meta-stability because I find a 'beginning' of time without an end asymmetrical and illogical (closed universes and eternal ones are both acceptable).

With all due respect, I think this is a terribly unscientific attitude. In fact, it's these kinds of demands about how reality must behave that have, in my opinion, led to the worst mistakes in science. See my earlier discussion about ideas such as the aether and vitalism. They were all based on ideas that reality couldn't possibly be X, and those beliefs ultimately turned out to be a failure of imagination. This is almost precisely why Einstein called his cosmological constant his "greatest blunder." It's a shame he continued to believe that God couldn't possibly throw dice, because as you would seem to agree, QM has been an enormously successful theory.

Quote
A far better way to approach is to go piece-meal with theories that explain particular things better then some aspect of BB theory.  The best example of this is MOND which can predict with incredible accuracy all the velocity and structure in galaxies without the freedom of putting dark matter wherever we wish, and on a cluster scale is only needs modest quantities of normal gas between galaxies to work at that level too.  MOND dose not presume to explain the whole cosmos, it just knee-caps one leg of the BB theory with a single very tight observation/model linkage that makes Dark matter look useless by comparison.  I foresee more such little theories emerging and a sticking, then only once these pieces are in place will they be fitted together into a new cosmology.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. I don't think approaches like MOND are really a good idea because MOND as described is almost undeniably falsified by other observations, despite its success at describing velocities in galaxies. I don't think it's necessary for astronomical theories to have universal scope, but they must still fit into the broader framework of what is known observationally.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 13, 2014, 01:49:49 AM
Reminds me of an old friend of mine, who used to refer to the "Laws of Thermodynamics restated"-

"You can't win. You can't win by cheating. And you're not allowed to quit!"
Title: Experts cast doubt on Big Bang bolstering discovery
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 14, 2014, 06:51:07 PM
Quote
Experts cast doubt on Big Bang bolstering discovery
AFP
By Jean-Louis Santini  11 hours ago


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/df76XbLd7T1AfQ9aWplKkQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU1NDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz03Njg-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/afp.com/a37f0df0e361b37d05a78022870191e6b81575c2.jpg)
A NASA image shows hundreds of thousands of stars crowded into the swirling core of the Milky Way galaxy (AFP Photo/)



Washington (AFP) - Astrophysicists are casting doubt on what just recently was deemed a breakthrough in confirming how the universe was born: the observation of gravitational waves that apparently rippled through space right after the Big Bang.

If proven to be correctly identified, these waves -- predicted in Albert Einstein's theory of relativity -- would confirm the rapid and violent growth spurt of the universe in the first fraction of a second marking its existence, 13.8 billion years ago.

The apparent first direct evidence of such so-called cosmic inflation -- a theory that the universe expanded by 100 trillion trillion times in barely the blink of an eye -- was announced in March by experts at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

The detection was made with the help of a telescope called BICEP2, stationed at the South Pole.

"Detecting this signal is one of the most important goals in cosmology today," John Kovac, leader of the BICEP2 collaboration at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, said at the time.

The telescope targeted a specific area known as the "Southern Hole" outside the galaxy where there is little dust or extra galactic material to interfere with what humans could see.

By observing the cosmic microwave background, or a faint glow left over from the Big Bang, the scientists said small fluctuations gave them new clues about the conditions in the early universe.

The gravitational waves rippled through the universe 380,000 years after the Big Bang, and these images were captured by the telescope, they claimed.

If confirmed by other experts, some said the work could be a contender for the Nobel Prize.


- 'Serious flaws' -

But not everyone is convinced of the findings, with skepticism surfacing recently on blogs and scientific US journals such as Science and New Scientist.

Paul Steinhardt, director of Princeton University's Center for Theoretical Science, addressed the issue in the prestigious British journal Nature in early June.

"Serious flaws in the analysis have been revealed that transform the sure detection into no detection," Steinhardt wrote, citing an independent analysis of the BICEP2 findings.

That analysis was carried out by David Spergel, a theoretical astrophysicist who is also at Princeton.

Spergel queried whether what the BICEP2 telescope picked up really came from the first moments of the universe's existence.

"What I think, it is not certain whether polarized emissions come from galactic dust or from the early universe," he told AFP.

"We know that galactic dust emits polarized radiations, we see that in many areas of the sky, and what we pointed out in our paper is that pattern they have seen is just as consistent with the galactic dust radiations as with gravitational waves."

When using just one frequency, as these scientists did, it is impossible to distinguish between gravitational waves and galactic emissions, Spergel added.

The question will likely be settled in the coming months when another, competing group, working with the European Space Agency's Planck telescope, publishes its results.

That telescope observes a large part of the sky -- versus the BICEP2's two percent -- and carries out measurements in six frequencies, according to Spergel.

"They should revise their claim," he said of the BICEP2 team. "I think in retrospect, they should have been more careful about making a big announcement."

He went on to say that, contrary to normal procedure, there was no external check of the data before it was made public.

Philipp Mertsch of the Kavli Institute for Particle Astrophysics and Cosmology at Stanford University said data from Planck and another team should be able to "shed more light on whether it is primordial gravitational waves or dust in the Milky Way."

"Let me stress, however, that what is leaving me (and many of my colleagues) unsatisfied with the state of affairs: If it is polarized dust emission, where is it coming from?" he said in an email.

Kovac, an associate professor of astronomy and physics at Harvard, declined to respond to requests for comment.

Another member of the team, Jamie Bock of the California Institute of Technology, also declined to be interviewed.

At the time of their announcement in March, the scientists said they spent three years analyzing their data to rule out any errors.
http://news.yahoo.com/experts-cast-doubt-big-bang-bolstering-discovery-060400200.html (http://news.yahoo.com/experts-cast-doubt-big-bang-bolstering-discovery-060400200.html)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 14, 2014, 08:06:47 PM
This is science in action as far as I'm concerned.  ;b; I'll note that the article's headline is slightly wrong, though. Experts are casting doubt on a discovery that supports inflation specifically, not the Big Bang more generally.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 14, 2014, 08:09:05 PM
As science journalism goes, that's not too bad...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 16, 2014, 05:49:54 AM
I'm totally lost when it comes to the part about dark energy having negative pressure. What does that mean in this context? I assume they aren't comparing it to Earth's atmosphere.

So, near as I can tell, the part about dark energy having negative pressure is just a way to explain it that might make sense without using math. It doesn't really have anything to do with an atmosphere, and I don't think it really gives a good explanation of why dark energy causes the universe's expansion to accelerate. I've been studying up on this, though, and I think I can give a reasonably good explanation.

The universe is composed of essentially three things: matter, radiation, and vacuum. All of these have mass that contributes to the gravity of the universe. In this context, though, it's useful to think of gravity not as a force that pulls things together but as a field with a certain amount of energy (gravitational potential energy). As a rule, fields don't like having energy stored in them. They'd much rather transfer that energy somewhere else.

Think about the electromagnetic field. When you put energy into the electromagnetic field, its response is to generate photons that carry the energy away and hopefully smack into something else. The same happens with gravity. When gravity has energy in its field, it releases it by giving kinetic energy to objects--causing those objects to fall.

Now, as the universe expands, the density of matter and radiation drop. Matter drops at the cube of the expansion rate (because volume is proportional to r^3), and radiation drops at the 4th of the expansion rate (because radiation is also affected by gravitational redshift). The vacuum, however, does not drop with the expansion, because the mass of the vacuum is associated with space itself and doesn't "spread out" as the universe does. The end result is that, eventually, the density of the universe is dominated by vacuum energy.

So, the energy of the gravitational field is defined by this equation: E = -GMm/r. This equation means that at any point a distance r from the center of mass M, there is an amount of energy equal to the mass enclosed in that radius times the mass at the point times the negative of Newton's gravitational constant. Normally, in a system with just mass, increasing the denominator r means the term gets closer to 0, which means the energy in the gravitational field is increasing. This is why r usually shrinks. When r shrinks, the term gets bigger overall, which means it's more negative, which means there's less energy in the gravitational field, which is just the way the field wants things to be.

But there's another way to look at this. The more mass enclosed within the radius r, the more negative the gravitational energy, which again is what the field wants. In a universe dominated by vacuum energy, this has an interesting effect. As r grows, the amount of space grows, so the amount of mass from the vacuum also grows. Specifically, it grows with the cube of the radius, because the volume of space is increasing. So, in that case, when r grows, M grows faster than r does, which means that the numerator grows faster than the denominator, which means the energy becomes even more negative. So in a universe dominated by vacuum energy, the way for the gravitational field to get rid of its energy is by expanding at an exponential rate.

Phew. Hope that makes some sense.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 16, 2014, 08:45:28 PM
Thanks, Lorizael.

After two read-throughs, some of the paragraphs make sense alone. The entire post is still confusing to me, but new cosmic concepts generally aren't something which I can grasp at first glance. I'll read it again tonight if I get the chance. Maybe I'll have an intelligent question tomorrow.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 17, 2014, 02:52:43 AM
If a vacuum is a void, why does it have mass?..... unless it's not really void and it's full of "Grey dust"?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 17, 2014, 03:51:49 AM
The vacuum has mass because it has energy. It has energy because of quantum mechanics.

To explain in a little more detail, theoretical physics currently operates under a paradigm known as quantum field theory. I mentioned above that "the electromagnetic field" creates photons and sends them off. This is because, in QFT, the fields that transmit forces are said to permeate all of space. So all of space contains the electromagnetic field which wiggles in response to the movement of charged particles. Having fields permeate all of space is the only way to get away from "spooky action at a distance" and the seeming impossibility of faster-than-light communication.

Now, at each point in a field, there is an energy level associated with that field. But because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, that energy level can have a minimum but can never be zero. More generally, the uncertainty principle forbids constant energy levels, and zero is obviously a constant. Instead, fields must fluctuate around their lowest energy level, which might be quite close to zero. What those lowest energy levels are has to do with the mass of the particles those fields create and gets into some sticky quantum mechanics. In fact, the the current understanding of the vacuum is that pairs of virtual particles are being created and annihilated constantly in the vacuum.

The point of all that, however, is that even the vacuum is filled with fields that possess an average minimum energy level which contributes to the mass of the universe. This isn't just theoretical rubbish, btw. The "vacuum energy" of the universe has been observed in the Casimir effect, which causes a slight attraction between two closely spaced plates. The reason for this is that the very small width between the two plates places wavelength limits on the particles that can spontaneously manifest, meaning there is less energy between the plates, leading to a lower pressure inside than outside, leading to an attractive force.

But it isn't all as nice as it sounds. Cosmological models put limits on the energy of the cosmological constant (it's very low). And QFT gives a theoretical estimate of what the energy level of the vacuum should be. The estimate it gives is something like 107 orders of magnitude too high. This is known as the vacuum catastrophe and quite possibly the worst prediction in the history of physics. It's obvious that the vacuum isn't that powerful (we would notice), but there isn't yet a good explanation as to why it isn't that powerful and what's going on instead. Nevertheless, QFT has been stupendously accurate in pretty much every other prediction it's ever made, so scientists are sticking with it for now.
Title: Nearly a Century Later, Edwin Hubble's Legacy Lives On (Op-Ed)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 18, 2014, 03:09:05 AM
Quote
Nearly a Century Later, Edwin Hubble's Legacy Lives On (Op-Ed)
SPACE.com
By Patrick McCarthy, director, Giant Magellan Telescope Organization  6 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/TP_oY1cKwTu96mvJd_iHnA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQzMTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Nearly_a_Century_Later,_Edwin-00d1f08c43e75a4ffdbe2e5bff28ec3f)
In this space wallpaper, astronomers using NASA's Hubble Space Telescope have assembled a comprehensive picture of the evolving universe among the most colorful deep space images ever captured by the 24-year-old telescope.


     
Patrick McCarthy was part of the Wide Field Camera 3 science team and currently serves as director of the Giant Magellan Telescope Organization. He contributed this article to Space.com's Expert Voices: Op-Ed & Insights.

In the fall of 1917, after a decade of labor, the 100-inch (2.5-meter) telescope at Mount Wilson in Southern California was dedicated. Edwin Hubble would spend many cold nights at the Newtonian focus of the instrument, which was the world's largest telescope at that time. Now, nearly a century later, another 100-inch telescope — the aptly named Hubble Space Telescope (HST) — has just provided the most complete, informative and breathtaking image of the deep universe.

Hubble and his assistant, former mule skinner Milton Humason, made painstaking, long exposures to obtain the sharpest images and spectra of the spiral nebula. Hubble showed that nebulae are "island universes" like Earth's own Milky Way galaxy, but at vast distances. Hubble improved scientists' understanding of the size of the cosmos by orders of magnitude. More remarkably still, he discovered that the universe of galaxies is not static, but rather expanding at an astonishing rate.

The new Hubble Ultra-Deep Field is humanity's first truly "full color" image of the cosmos. By combining deep ultraviolet with visible light and near-infrared images of distant galaxies, the pan-chromatic deep field allows scientists to trace the birth, life and death of stars across the full span of cosmic time. The Ultra-Deep Field provides an awe-inspiring view of more than 100,000 galaxies — a small but representative sampling of the more than 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe.

Galaxies like Earth's own Milky Way are composed of roughly 100 billion stars. Some, like the sun, emit most of their radiation in the visible band — with wavelengths between 0.3 and 1.0 microns. Others, like the red giant Betelgeuse in Orion, emit copious radiation in the infrared, while the massive young star Rigel, also in Orion, pumps much of its prodigious output of photons in the vacuum ultraviolet, light with wavelengths less than 0.3 microns that is absorbed by ozone in the Earth’s upper atmosphere.

To assemble a full census of the stellar content of a galaxy, and a full census of the contents of the universe, astronomers must sample a broad spectral range — from the deep ultraviolet to the thermal infrared.


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/W7OVX3ShDLjT53585c9DSA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTg2MztweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Nearly_a_Century_Later,_Edwin-76c4fa3ed59c63361a078439317cd0da)
Patrick McCarthy was part of the Wide Field Camera 3 science team and currently serves as director of the Giant Magellan Telescope Organization.


If you think of a galaxy as an orchestra — an ensemble of players that work in harmony to produce a whole greater than its parts — the visible light samples the violins and the brass, the infrared captures the bass and kettle drums, while the ultraviolet picks out the flutes, piccolos and triangles.

In the case of galaxies, the ultraviolet-bright stars carry the tune of creation — they trace the formation of stars and the conversion of hydrogen to helium, and then helium to carbon, nitrogen and oxygen, and on through the periodic table to iron. The white-to-yellow stars, the midrange of the galaxy spectral band, is filled by middle-mass and middle-aged stars. The long-lived low-mass dwarf stars are vast in number, and like the bass viola, provide a foundation to the orchestra out of the limelight occupied by the brighter instruments. The young massive stars shine brightly in the ultraviolet for a short time and then exit the stage via spectacular supernova explosions.

The first Hubble Deep Field image, captured in 1994, changed scientists' view of the universe by revealing a rich tapestry of galaxies with shapes and structures foreign to the galaxy shapes that are seen in the universe today. Many are in the throes of violent collisions and mergers that may transform them from one type of galaxy — such as spirals like the Milky Way — into other types, like the massive elliptical galaxies that are dominated by random orbits rather than orderly rotation.

A major technical addition to Hubble's suite of cameras has allowed astronomers to first add the infrared, and now the ultraviolet, to create the Hubble Ultra-Deep Field images. For the first time, astronomers can hear the full orchestra of galaxies and their constituent stars. Wide-Field Camera 3, the instrument that revitalized HST in 2009, is a marvel of technology. It contains two separate cameras — one optimized for the ultraviolet, and the other for the infrared. Each uses optics crafted to optimize performance in the selected waveband and focused on state-of-the-art detectors. The ultraviolet camera uses a charge coupled device (CCD) similar to that found in handheld digital cameras, but optimized for low-light-level work in the harsh environment of space. The infrared camera uses a diode array that is only sensitive to light in the range from 0.6 microns to 1.7 microns. This makes it blind to the thermal radiation from the warm optics on Hubble. By staring deeply into space for hundreds of hours, the camera collected a handful of photons per galaxy — photons that have traveled for billions of years before reaching Hubble's mirror.

The Deep Field provides a rich image of the distant cosmos, but many of the key questions regarding the evolution of the universe require spectroscopy — the dispersal of the light into its constituent colors — to reveal their distances, masses and internal dynamics. Fortunately, there is a new generation of telescopes on the horizon, both in space and on the ground, that promise to revolutionize our understanding of the distant universe.

NASA, the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Canadian Space Agency are poised to launch the successor to Hubble — the James Webb Space Telescope — in 2018. The Webb is optimized for the near- and mid-infrared, and will produce redshifts and internal dynamics for many thousands of galaxies. With its 21-foot-diameter (6.5 meters) primary mirror, cooled to the frigid temperature of minus 387 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 233 degrees Celsius), Webb will have unmatched sensitivity at wavelengths longer than 2 microns.

A new generation of giant telescopes are also under construction here on Earth. These "extremely large telescopes" will have 100 times the light-gathering power and 10 times the angular resolution of Hubble. I am involved in the development of one of these, the Giant Magellan Telescope, being designed by an elite engineering team in Southern California, while its giant mirrors are taking shape in a high-tech optics laboratory in Arizona. Our team has already prepared its future home high in the Chilean Andes, and over the next several years, hundreds of scientists, engineers and construction workers will assemble the 82-foot-diameter (25 m) telescope so that, as the next decade starts, astronomers will have a new tool for exploring the first few hundred million years after the Big Bang. Two other giant telescopes are also under development: the Thirty Meter Telescope in Hawaii, and another in the far north of Chile, the European Extremely Large Telescope.

Newton once wrote, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." The next generation of astronomers will, indeed, see further by standing on the shoulders of giants — telescopes like Hubble, Webb and the Giant Magellan Telescope and its brethren. The view will be spectacular.
http://news.yahoo.com/nearly-century-later-edwin-hubbles-legacy-lives-op-192323608.html (http://news.yahoo.com/nearly-century-later-edwin-hubbles-legacy-lives-op-192323608.html)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on June 18, 2014, 04:20:45 AM
The JWST has something of a rocky history, btw. Every once in awhile it looks like it's not actually going to get into space. But it has to. It is the (near) future of astronomy.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 18, 2014, 04:24:32 AM
They gotta launch the Webb - this space telescope thingy has really panned out.
Title: Universe's Expansion Measured With Unprecedented Precision
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 18, 2014, 07:04:48 PM
Quote
Universe's Expansion Measured With Unprecedented Precision
SPACE.com
by Nola Taylor Redd, SPACE.com Contributor  2 hours ago


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/tWnIM4tdhhM9ag0UUVX3fg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM2OTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Universe%27s_Expansion_Measured_With_Unprecedented-eb9713a6a6ac8b6c9bcb44879429ea5e)
An artist's view of how quasars and BOAs work together to measure the expansion of the universe. Light from distant quasars is absorbed by gas, which is imprinted with a pattern of BOAs from the early universe.



Scientists studying more than 140,000 extremely bright galaxies have calculated the expansion of the universe with unprecedented accuracy.

The distant galaxies, known as quasars, serve as a "standard ruler" to map density variations in the universe. Physicists were able to extend their calculations almost twice as far back in time as has been previously accomplished.

Using the Baryon Oscillation Spectroscopic Survey (BOSS), two teams of physicists have improved on scientists' understanding of the mysterious dark energy that drives the accelerating universe. By nearly tripling the number of quasars previously studied, as well as implementing a new technique, the scientists were able to calculate the expansion rate to 42 miles (68 kilometers) per second per 1 million light-years with greater precision, while looking farther back in time. [8 Baffling Astronomy Mysteries]

Andreu Font-Ribera, of the U.S. Department of Energy's Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, led one of the two teams, while Timothée Delubac of EPFL, Switzerland, and France’s Centre de Saclay headed the other one. Font-Ribera presented the new findings in April at a meeting of the American Physical Society in Savannah, Georgia.

The new research "explores a region of the universe that was not explored before," Font-Ribera said.


Stretching the standard ruler

The expanding universe stretches light waves as they travel through it, a process astronomers refer to as redshifting. An object's physical distance from the observer depends on how quickly the universe is expanding.

Baryon acoustic oscillations (BAOs) are sound waves imprinted in large structures of matter in the early universe. Competing forces of inward-pushing gravity and outward, heat-related pressure cause oscillations similar to sound waves in the baryonic, or "normal" matter in the universe.

Dark matter, which interacts with normal matter only gravitationally, stays at the center of the sound wave, while the baryonic matter travels outward, eventually creating a shell at a set radius known as the sound horizon.

Quasars, like other galaxies, are surrounded by dust. Light leaving galaxies streams through that dust, revealing the imprint of the BAOs. Studying this light allows researchers to map the distribution of quasars, as well as the gas in the early universe.

By using BOSS, the largest component of the third Sloan Digital Sky Survey, to map BAOs, scientists can determine how matter is distributed in the early universe. When it comes to measuring the expansion of the universe, BAOs serve as a "standard ruler."

"We think we know its size, and its apparent size depends on how far away it is," Patrick McDonald, of the Canadian Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics, said at the conference.

Previously, astronomers have used BAOs to measure the distances to galaxies in order to determine the distribution of mass in the universe, and thus the universe's expansion rate. But galaxies grow fainter at greater distances, so previous studies were limited to looking back only 6 billion light-years into the universe's 13.8-billion-year lifetime.

Font-Ribera and his team, which included McDonald, pioneered a method of measuring BAOs by using quasars, which are galaxies that are far brighter than normal due to the activity of a supermassive black hole at their center. As matter falls into the black hole, it grows extremely hot, radiating light at far brighter wavelengths and over farther distances than conventional galaxies. This allowed the scientists to measure the mass distribution of the universe out to 12 billion years.

Font-Ribera's research involved approximately 50,000 quasars. The new study published by Delubac's team reviewed nearly three times as many sources, more precisely calculating the expansion rate to an accuracy of 2.2 percent.

"If we looked back to the universe when it was less than a quarter of its present age, we'd see that a pair of galaxies separated by a million light-years would be drifting apart at a velocity of 68 kilometers a second as the universe expands," Font-Ribera said in an accompanying press release.

"The uncertainty is plus or minus only a kilometer and a half per second."


The expanding universe

In the early twentieth century, astronomer Edwin Hubble determined that the galaxies in the universe are all moving away from the Milky Way because the universe is expanding. Further studies led astronomers to conclude that the rate of expansion is speeding up rather than slowing down.

McDonald compared the process to a ball thrown in the air.

"Acceleration is like you throw the ball up, and it starts going up faster and faster," McDonald said. "No normal attractive gravity will do that."

   Astronomers determined that an unseen force, dubbed "dark energy," causes the acceleration. McDonald calls dark energy a "placeholder" because scientists aren't certain what, precisely, it is.

"To me, it seems quite possible that it's related to some fundamental hole in our understanding of physics," he said.

In order to patch that hole, scientists must continue to learn more about dark energy, including its role in accelerating the expansion of the universe.
http://news.yahoo.com/universes-expansion-measured-unprecedented-precision-145252498.html (http://news.yahoo.com/universes-expansion-measured-unprecedented-precision-145252498.html)


Title: 'Big G': Scientists Pin Down Elusive Gravitational Constant
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 18, 2014, 07:34:32 PM
Quote
'Big G': Scientists Pin Down Elusive Gravitational Constant
LiveScience.com
By Tia Ghose, Staff Writer  54 minutes ago


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/RX4AHy0KQYslNdL3vyWBEg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU1OTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz00MDc-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/LiveScience.com/isaac-newton.jpg1350341777)
A painting of Sir Isaac Newton by Sir Godfrey Kneller, dated to 1689.



A fundamental constant that sets the size of the gravitational force between all objects has finally been pinned down using the quirky quantum behavior of tiny atoms.

The new results could help set the official value of the gravitational constant, and may even help scientists find evidence of extra space-time dimensions, said study co-author Guglielmo Tino, an atomic physicist at the University of Florence in Italy.


Elusive value

According to legend, Sir Isaac Newton first formulated his theory of gravity after watching a falling apple. In Newton's equations, the force of gravity grows with the mass of two objects in question, and the force gets weaker the more distant the objects are from each other. The English polymath knew the object's masses had to be multiplied by a constant, or "big G," in order to arrive at the gravitational force between those two objects, but he wasn't able to calculate its value. ("Big G" is different from "little g," which is the local gravitational acceleration on Earth.)

In 1798, scientist Henry Cavendish calculated big G in order to determine Earth's mass. To do so, Cavendish suspended dumbbells on a wire, with enormous lead spheres placed at different distances nearby, and then measured how much the dumbbells rotated in response to the attractive pull of gravity from the neighboring dumbbell. [6 Weird Facts About Gravity]

Since then, almost every attempt to measure big G has used some variation of Cavendish's method. Many of those experiments got extremely precise values — which didn't agree with one another. That's because it was too difficult to identify all potential sources of error in the complicated systems used, said Holger Müller, an atomic physicist at the University of California, Berkeley, who was not involved in the new study.

"The gravitational force is just super tiny, so anything from air currents to electric charges can give you a false result," Müller told Live Science.

As a result, big G is known with much less precision than other fundamental constants, such as the speed of light or the mass of an electron, Tino told Live Science.


Keeping cool

The big systems didn't seem to be working, so the researchers decided to go very small.

The team cooled rubidium atoms to just above the temperature of absolute zero (minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit, or minus 273.15 degrees Celsius), where atoms hardly move at all. The researchers then launched the atoms upward inside a vacuum tube and let them fall, in what's called an atomic fountain.

They also placed several hundred pounds of tungsten nearby.

To see how the tungsten distorted the gravitational field, they turned to quantum mechanics, the bizarre rules that govern subatomic particles. At small scales, particles such as atoms can also behave like waves — meaning they can take two different paths at the same time. So the team split the paths the rubidium atoms took as they fell, and then used a device called an atomic interferometer to measure how the waveforms of those paths shifted. The shift in the peaks and valleys of the paths when they recombined was a result of the gravitational pull of the tungsten masses.

The new measurement of G — 6.67191(99) X 10 ^ -11 meters cubed / kilograms seconds ^2 — isn't as precise as the best measures, but because it uses single atoms, scientists can be more confident the results aren't skewed by hidden errors that foiled the more complicated setups of past experiments, Tino told Live Science.

The achievement is impressive, Müller said.

"I thought this experiment would be close to impossible, because the influence of those masses [on gravitational pull] is just very small," Müller told Live Science. "It's really a great breakthrough."


New value

The new experiment raises the hope that future measurements can finally settle on a more precise value for big G.

The findings also could help scientists discover if something more bizarre is at play. Some theories suggest that extra dimensions could warp the gravitational fields in our own four-dimensional world. These distortions would likely be very subtle and would only be noticeable at very small distances. In fact, others have suggested that the different results other labs have gotten were caused by this extradimensional intrusion, Tino said.

By ruling out methodological errors, the new technique could be used to find evidence of extra dimensions, he said.

The new value of G was published today (June 18) in the journal Nature.
http://news.yahoo.com/big-g-scientists-pin-down-elusive-gravitational-constant-171614687.html (http://news.yahoo.com/big-g-scientists-pin-down-elusive-gravitational-constant-171614687.html)
Title: Just One Type of Blazar? How Jet-Spewing Galaxies Evolve Over Time
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 18, 2014, 11:50:34 PM
Quote
Just One Type of Blazar? How Jet-Spewing Galaxies Evolve Over Time
SPACE.com
By Joseph Castro, Space.com Contributor  5 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/DJSp27aO0B0Mxdc_D51izg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM4NDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Just_One_Type_of_Blazar?-b69b938e0f45eddc8c16dea0c83866b8)
Scientists now think that two kinds of active galaxies known as blazars actually represent a hybrid kind of blazar that evolves from one type into the other. Image uploaded June 17, 2014.



The two different classes of jet-spewing active galaxies called blazars may, in fact, be a single hybrid type that evolves over time, according to new research.

The luminous cores of most if not all galaxies contain a supermassive black hole, which is millions or even billions of times more massive than the sun. In some "active galaxies," gas trapped by the black hole's gravity forms a hot accretion disk as it spirals down.

Before crossing the point of no return (the event horizon), this material generates huge amounts of electromagnetic radiation and, in the case of quasars, blasts out two jets of subatomic particles that travel in opposite directions at nearly the speed of light.

Blazars appear to produce more gamma radiation than other types of active galaxies, but this may be because one of their jets is pointed toward Earth. (Blazars are generally defined as quasars that are viewed jet-on).

Astronomers currently recognize two types of blazars. Those known as flat-spectrum radio quasars (FSRQs) have smaller black hole masses and weaker jets but strong accretion disk emissions and much higher luminosities. On the other hand, the type known as BL Lacs are completely dominated by their jets, with accretion disk emissions either being weak or nonexistent.

"We can think of one blazar class as a gas-guzzling car and the other as an energy-efficient electric vehicle," study lead researcher Marco Ajello, an astrophysicist at Clemson University in South Carolina, said in a statement. "Our results suggest that we're actually seeing hybrids, which tap into the energy of their black holes in different ways as they age."

Ajello and his team came to this conclusion after studying how the distribution of blazars changed over time. They collected redshift data on BL Lacs using numerous instruments, including the Hobby-Eberly Telescope at McDonald Observatory in Texas, the Keck Telescope in Hawaii and NASA's Swift satellite. (To measure distances of faraway objects, astronomers rely on redshift, or how much the expansion of space has stretched an object's light to redder wavelengths).

They obtained the distances of about 200 BL Lacs and compared the galaxies' distribution across time with a similar sample of FSRQs. They found that FSRQs began to decline in number around 5.6 billion years ago — the same time at which BL Lacs, particularly those with the most extreme energies, steadily increased in numbers.

"What we think we're seeing here is a changeover from one style of extracting energy from the central black hole to another," said team member Roger Romani, an astrophysicist at the Kavli Institute for Particle Astrophysics and Cosmology in California. That is, the FSRQs became BL Lacs over time.

The idea goes like this: Early in the universe's history, large galaxies grew out of collisions and mergers of smaller galaxies. The activity provided the supermassive black holes with bountiful gas, which resulted in large, bright accretion disks. Some of that gas powered the jets of the "gas-guzzling" FSRQs, while the rest fell into the black holes, increasing their spins.

The galaxy collisions eventually slowed as the universe expanded, leaving less spiraling material for the black holes. The accretion disks became depleted, and the resulting black holes were fast-spinning and more massive than ever.

The accretion energy the FSRQs once had was stored in the increasing rotation and mass of the supermassive black holes. That stored energy allowed the blazars to continue shooting out their particle jets and high-energy emissions as BL Lac objects, even without large accretion disks.

This hybrid blazar idea implies that the luminosity of BL Lacs should decrease as their core black holes continue to lose energy and spin. The researchers hope to test this hypothesis with larger blazar samples.
http://news.yahoo.com/just-one-type-blazar-jet-spewing-galaxies-evolve-171719801.html (http://news.yahoo.com/just-one-type-blazar-jet-spewing-galaxies-evolve-171719801.html)
Title: Universe Shouldn't Be Here, According to Higgs Physics
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 24, 2014, 06:53:21 PM
Quote
Universe Shouldn't Be Here, According to Higgs Physics
LiveScience.com
By Tia Ghose, Staff Writer  19 hours ago


(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/4AFNbbXWKf8MPA_PyeaT7A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM4MztweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/LiveScience.com/bicep2-telescope.jpg1403559883)
The BICEP2 telescope in Antarctica, seen at twilight.



The universe shouldn't exist — at least according to a new theory.

Modeling of conditions soon after the Big Bang suggests the universe should have collapsed just microseconds after its explosive birth, the new study suggests.

"During the early universe, we expected cosmic inflation — this is a rapid expansion of the universe right after the Big Bang," said study co-author Robert Hogan, a doctoral candidate in physics at King's College in London. "This expansion causes lots of stuff to shake around, and if we shake it too much, we could go into this new energy space, which could cause the universe to collapse."

Physicists draw that conclusion from a model that accounts for the properties of the newly discovered Higgs boson particle, which is thought to explain how other particles get their mass; faint traces of gravitational waves formed at the universe's origin also inform the conclusion.

Of course, there must be something missing from these calculations.

"We are here talking about it," Hogan told Live Science. "That means we have to extend our theories to explain why this didn't happen."


Bang!

One possible explanation holds that during the fiery flash after the primordial Big Bang explosion, matter raced outward at breakneck speeds in a process known as cosmic inflation. This bent and squeezed space-time, creating ripples known as gravitational waves that also twisted the radiation that passed through the universe, Hogan said.

Though those events would have occurred 13.8 billion years ago, a telescope at the South Pole known as the Background Imaging of Cosmic Extragalactic Polarization (BICEP2) recently detected the faint traces of cosmic inflation in the background microwave radiation that pervades the universe: in particular, characteristic twisted or curled waves called the B-mode pattern. (Other scientists have already begun to question the findings, saying the results may just be from dust in the Milky Way.)

But gravity wasn't the only force at play in the early universe. A ubiquitous energy field, called the Higgs field, permeates the universe and gives mass to the particles that trudge through the field. Scientists found the telltale sign of that field in 2012, when they discovered the Higgs boson and then determined its mass.

With a greater understanding of cosmic inflation's properties and the Higgs boson mass, Hogan and his colleague, Malcolm Fairbairn, who is also a physicist at King's College London, tried to recreate the conditions of cosmic inflation after the Big Bang.

What they found was bad news for, well, everything. The newborn universe should have experienced an intense jittering in the energy field, known as quantum fluctuation. Those jitters, in turn, could have disrupted the Higgs field, in essence rolling the entire system into a much lower energy state that would make the collapse of the universe inevitable.


Missing ingredient

So if the universe shouldn't exist, why is it here?

"The generic expectation is that there must be some new physics that we haven't put in our theories yet, because we haven't been able to discover them," Hogan said.

One leading possibility, known as the theory of supersymmetry, proposes that there are superpartner particles for all the currently known particles, and perhaps more-powerful particle accelerators could find these particles, Hogan said.

But the theory of cosmic inflation is still speculative, and some physicists hint that what looked like primordial gravitational waves to the BICEP2 telescope may actually be signals from cosmic dust in the galaxy, said Sean Carroll, a physicist at the California Institute of Technology and author of "The Particle at the End of the Universe: How the Hunt for the Higgs Boson Leads Us to the Edge of a New World" (Dutton Adult, 2012).

If the details of cosmic inflation change, then Hogan and Fairbairn's model would need to adapt as well, Carroll told Live Science. Caroll was not involved in the study.

Interestingly, this isn't the first time that physicists have said the Higgs boson spells doom for the universe. Others have calculated that the Higgs boson's mass would lead to a fundamentally unstable universe that could end apocalyptically in billions of years.

The mass of the Higgs boson, about 126 times that of the proton, turns out to be "right on the edge," in terms of the universe's stability, Carroll said. A little bit lighter, and the Higgs field would be much more easily perturbed; a little heavier, and the current Higgs field would be incredibly stable.

Hogan will present his findings Tuesday (June 24) at the Royal Astronomical Society meeting in Portsmouth, England, and the study was published May 20 in the journal Physical Review Letters.
http://news.yahoo.com/universe-shouldnt-according-higgs-physics-220219618.html (http://news.yahoo.com/universe-shouldnt-according-higgs-physics-220219618.html)
Title: Higgs quest deepens into realm of 'New Physics'
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 02, 2014, 06:17:15 PM
Quote
Higgs quest deepens into realm of 'New Physics'
AFP
By Mariette Le Roux  13 hours ago


(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/zoPpYPJSRozdxsYtBbbgdQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTY0MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/afp.com/0bb10da8d60a1e0b098ea0286e33c5deccf77ff6.jpg)
A worker walks past equipment at CERN's Large Hadron Collider, during maintenance works on July 19, 2013 in Meyrin, near Geneva (AFP Photo/Fabrice Coffrini)



Paris (AFP) - Two years after making history by unearthing the Higgs boson, the particle that confers mass, physicists are broadening their probe into its identity, hoping this will also solve other great cosmic mysteries.

Sifting through mountains of experimental data, they have now pieced together a partial sketch of the evasive boson's traits and behaviour.

But, some of them admit to be puzzled.

The better they become acquainted with the Higgs at the infinitely small quantum level, the further the experts seem from explaining certain cosmic-scale questions, like dark matter.

"The observed characteristics of the Higgs boson, such as its mass, interaction strengths and life-time, provide very powerful constraints on our understanding of the more fundamental theory," Valya Khoze, director of the Institute for Particle Physics Phenomenology (IPPP) at Durham University, told AFP.

From next year, scientists will smash sub-atomic particles at ever higher-speeds in the upgraded Large Hadron Collider (LHC) near Geneva, which announced the Higgs discovery on July 4, 2012.

Not only will they hope for new particles to emerge, but also for the Higgs to show signs of, well, weirdness.

So far, the Higgs has conformed well to the traits predicted in the Standard Model of particle physics, the mainstream theory of how our Universe is constructed.

Too well, for some.

The model has weaknesses in that it doesn't explain dark matter or dark energy, which jointly make up 95 percent of the Universe. Nor is it compatible with the theory of gravity.

Scientists have proposed alternative theories to explain the inconsistencies -- like supersymmetry which postulates the existence of a "sibling" for every particle in the Universe and may explain dark matter and dark energy.

No proof of such symmetric particles has been found at the LHC, currently in sleep mode for an 18-month overhaul to super-boost its power levels.

Supersymmetry, additionally, predicts the existence of at least five types of Higgs boson, and physicists will thus be watching the LHC Higgs closely for signs of behaviour inconsistent with the Standard Model.


- 'New Physics' -

"It would give us a very good hint that there is physics there beyond the Standard Model and that there's new, additional physics coming soon," said Dave Charlton, who heads the ATLAS experiment at the LHC.

"It could help to explain many of the other problems we have in physics at the moment."

The LHC is a facility of the European Organisation for Nuclear Research (CERN) which celebrated its 60th anniversary on Tuesday.

The Higgs boson is a cornerstone of the Standard Model, a theory developed in the early 1970s to explain the five percent of the Universe composed of visible matter and energy, all carried by fundamental particles.

But some of the boson's newly discovered properties have left physicists scratching their heads.

For starters, they don't understand how it can have such a small mass.

Nor is the evidence consistent for the role it played in the development of the early Universe after the Big Bang -- issues that may be resolved by so-called New Physics the experts hope will follow soon.

When the LHC fires up again next year, scientists will be on the lookout for new particles, including other types of Higgs, and possible "invisible decays" of the boson to indicate the presence of dark matter.

"All of the particles of the Standard Model have now been discovered," said Charlton.

"If we see new particles, it's something new... if we see new particles, it will point to something whether it is supersymmetry or some other new theory.

"It will tell us that the Standard Model is broken, that there is something else."

Charlton said we may never know if the Higgs found at the LHC was exactly the Standard Model version or something that just resembles it.

Themis Bowcock, particle physics head at the University of Liverpool, said confirmation of several Standard Model predictions over the past two years have placed a new focus on what is not yet known.

"It allows us to step back and view the boundaries of our knowledge with a keener eye," he told AFP.

"We realise we have mastered our closest and most obvious challenges, but like a 15th century navigator we are motivated to venture beyond our mapped lands to discover the missing 95 percent -- the New World."
http://news.yahoo.com/higgs-quest-deepens-realm-physics-035140731.html (http://news.yahoo.com/higgs-quest-deepens-realm-physics-035140731.html)
Title: 'Revolutionary' Physics: Do Sterile Neutrinos Lurk in the Universe?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 02, 2014, 06:45:01 PM
Quote
'Revolutionary' Physics: Do Sterile Neutrinos Lurk in the Universe?
LiveScience.com
By Tia Ghose, Staff Writer  2 hours ago

(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/RZ7wBvhpHUfv2SaHDAmjxA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM4MztweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/LiveScience.com/microboone-1.jpg1404231434)
The detector for the MicroBooNe is gently lowered into place.



A completely new subatomic particle — one so reclusive and strange that it passes undetected through ordinary matter — could be lurking in the universe.

If so, a detector set to turn on later this year could find the first convincing evidence for the particle, called a sterile neutrino. The new experiment, whose 30-ton detector was recently lowered into place at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Illinois, will look for traces of this elusive particle transforming into another type of neutrino.

Unlike the Higgs boson, the particle thought to explain why other particles have mass and which most physicists predicted should exist for decades, sterile neutrinos would be in the realm of completely unknown physics that only some physicists believe exist, said Bonnie Fleming, the experiment's spokeswoman and a physicist at Yale University. "It would be completely revolutionary," Fleming said.


Ghostly particles

Neutrinos are miniscule, nearly massless subatomic particles that form during nuclear reactions in the hearts of stars, supernovae and other explosive cosmic events. Though trillions of neutrinos pass through our bodies every second, they almost never interact with other matter, giving them the nickname "ghost particles."

The known neutrinos come in three different types, or flavors — electron, muon and tau — and in the last 15 to 20 years, scientists have learned that those flavors oscillate, or change into one another, with a certain frequency. (During collisions, electron neutrinos can also turn into electrons, muon neutrinos can transform into muons, and tau neutrinos can turn into tau leptons, particles that are similar to electrons.

But a few hints suggest there could be a totally new type of neutrino out there. For instance, experiments in the 1990s to detect neutrinos from the sun found possible evidence that electron neutrinos were disappearing. Another experiment designed to probe neutrino oscillation found extra electron neutrinos appearing. One explanation for these anomalies is that the neutrinos were morphing into an intermediate particle called a sterile neutrino.


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The 30-ton argon detector has been under construction for two years.


If such sterile neutrinos exist, they would interact only with matter through the incredible weak force of gravity, making direct detection impossible, Fleming told Live Science.


Hunting sterile neutrinos

So starting late this year or early in 2015, Fleming and her colleagues will look for indirect evidence of sterile neutrinos. The experiment, called MicroBooNE, will shoot a beam of pure muon-flavored neutrinos 0.3 miles (0.5 kilometers) through a 30-ton metal tank filled with argon. Though most of these ghost particles will travel through the argon unchanged, some will occasionally change flavor to an electron neutrino, tau neutrino — or possibly a sterile neutrino.

Some fraction of these neutrinos will then go on to collide with the nuclei of argon atoms in the detector.

"They will shatter that nucleus, and parts of that nucleus will go everywhere," said Matt Strassler, a physicist at Harvard University who was not involved in the study. As part of the collision, electron neutrinos will sometimes morph into electrons, Strassler added.

The detector then identifies where, when and what type of particles were created by analyzing the trail left by ionized, or charged, particles after the collision.

Because the researchers know how often electron neutrinos should convert into electrons during such collisions, any deviation from expectations could be a sign that a muon neutrino morphed into an intermediate sterile neutrino, then into an electron neutrino, and finally into an electron.


Longshot physics

Though the discovery of a sterile neutrino is a possibility, it's not likely, Strassler said.

MicroBooNE is working to clarify tantalizing hints in data from a precursor experiment called MiniBooNE, but there's a good chance that MiniBooNE's "dirty measurement" is picking up other processes instead, Strassler said.

Even if the new experiment uncovers something strange, there's no guarantee sterile neutrinos caused the signal, rather than some other completely different interaction, he said.

"There's a very small — not zero — chance that they're actually going to uncover one of the great secrets of the universe," Strassler told Live Science.
http://news.yahoo.com/revolutionary-physics-sterile-neutrinos-lurk-universe-152137211.html (http://news.yahoo.com/revolutionary-physics-sterile-neutrinos-lurk-universe-152137211.html)
Title: When Beliefs and Facts Collide
Post by: gwillybj on July 06, 2014, 03:14:44 PM
Quote
The New York Times | Science
The Upshot | Debate That Divides
When Beliefs and Facts Collide
Brendan Nyham | July 5, 2014

Do Americans understand the scientific consensus about issues like climate change and evolution?

At least for a substantial portion of the public, it seems like the answer is no. The Pew Research Center, for instance, found that 33 percent of the public believes “Humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time” and 26 percent think there is not “solid evidence that the average temperature on Earth has been getting warmer over the past few decades.” Unsurprisingly, beliefs on both topics are divided along religious and partisan lines. For instance, 46 percent of Republicans said there is not solid evidence of global warming, compared with 11 percent of Democrats.

As a result of surveys like these, scientists and advocates have concluded that many people are not aware of the evidence on these issues and need to be provided with correct information. That’s the impulse behind efforts like the campaign to publicize the fact that 97 percent of climate scientists believe human activities are causing global warming.

In a new study, a Yale Law School professor, Dan Kahan, finds that the divide over belief in evolution between more and less religious people is wider among people who otherwise show familiarity with math and science, which suggests that the problem isn’t a lack of information. When he instead tested whether respondents knew the theory of evolution, omitting mention of belief, there was virtually no difference between more and less religious people with high scientific familiarity. In other words, religious people knew the science; they just weren’t willing to say that they believed in it.

Mr. Kahan’s study suggests that more people know what scientists think about high-profile scientific controversies than polls suggest; they just aren’t willing to endorse the consensus when it contradicts their political or religious views. This finding helps us understand why my colleagues and I have found that factual and scientific evidence is often ineffective at reducing misperceptions and can even backfire on issues like weapons of mass destruction, health care reform and vaccines. With science as with politics, identity often trumps the facts.

So what should we do? One implication of Mr. Kahan’s study and other research in this field is that we need to try to break the association between identity and factual beliefs on high-profile issues – for instance, by making clear that you can believe in human-induced climate change and still be a conservative Republican like former Representative Bob Inglis or an evangelical Christian like the climate scientist Katharine Hayhoe.

But we also need to reduce the incentives for elites to spread misinformation to their followers in the first place. Once people’s cultural and political views get tied up in their factual beliefs, it’s very difficult to undo regardless of the messaging that is used.

It may be possible for institutions to help people set aside their political identities and engage with science more dispassionately under certain circumstances, especially at the local level. Mr. Kahan points, for instance, to the relatively inclusive and constructive deliberations that were conducted among citizens in Southeast Florida about responding to climate change. However, this experience may be hard to replicate – on the Outer Banks of North Carolina, another threatened coastal area, the debate over projected sea level rises has already become highly polarized.

The deeper problem is that citizens participate in public life precisely because they believe the issues at stake relate to their values and ideals, especially when political parties and other identity-based groups get involved – an outcome that is inevitable on high-profile issues. Those groups can help to mobilize the public and represent their interests, but they also help to produce the factual divisions that are one of the most toxic byproducts of our polarized era. Unfortunately, knowing what scientists think is ultimately no substitute for actually believing it.

The Upshot provides news, analysis and graphics about politics, policy and everyday life.

(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/06/upshot/06up-science/06up-science-articleLarge.jpg) Eiko Ojala


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/upshot/when-beliefs-and-facts-collide.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/upshot/when-beliefs-and-facts-collide.html)
Title: Big Dipper Hotspot May Help Solve 100-Year-Old Cosmic Ray Mystery
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 08, 2014, 06:13:08 PM
Quote
Big Dipper Hotspot May Help Solve 100-Year-Old Cosmic Ray Mystery
SPACE.com
by Nola Taylor Redd, SPACE.com Contributor  3 hours ago


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/u00jBxGWNBIZC0KEi8EI6A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTMwODtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Big_Dipper_Hotspot_May_Help-0a6e983599e0864aa174899963bd8ab5)
A map of the northern sky shows the concentration of ultrahigh-energy cosmic rays stemming from the constellation of Ursa Major.



A hotspot of powerful, ultrahigh-energy particles streams toward Earth from beneath the handle of the Big Dipper constellation. This collection of cosmic rays may help scientists nail down the origin point of the powerful particles, a century-old mystery.

"This puts us closer to finding out the sources — but no cigar yet," Gordon Thomson, of the University of Utah, said in a statement. Thomson is the co-principle investigator for the Telescope Array cosmic ray observatory in southern Utah, which discovered the hotspot, and one of the 125 researchers on the project.

"All we see is a blob in the sky, and inside this blob there is all sorts of stuff — various types of objects — that could be the source," he added. "Now we know where to look."


A hundred-year-old mystery

Gordon worked with an international team of scientists to capture 72 ultarhigh-energy cosmic rays with the Telescope Array over a period of five years. If powerful cosmic ray sources spread evenly across the sky, the resulting waves should also be evenly distributed. Instead, 19 of the detected signals came from a 40-degree circle that makes up only six percent of the sky. The hot spot lies in the constellation Ursa Major, home of the Big Dipper.

"We have a quarter of our events in that circle instead of 6 percent," collaborator Charlie Jui, also from the University of Utah, said in the same statement.

Jui describes the hotspot's location as "a couple of hand widths below the Big Dipper's handle." The region would appear like any other region of the sky to regular optical telescopes.


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/NIBLK.tbnHt_TTOVPewpxQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQzMTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Big_Dipper_Hotspot_May_Help-20ba878469e0b5f5d813b35e0d80b0b9)
solar-powered detector at the Telescope Array cosmic ray observatory measures the strength and direction of cosmic rays after they travel through Earth's atmosphere.


According to the researchers, the odds that the hotspot is a statistical fluke rather than real are only 1.4 in 10,000.

The hotspot region of the sky lies near the supergalactic plane, which contains local galaxy clusters such as the Ursa Major cluster, the Coma cluster and the Virgo cluster.

The research, which is an international collaboration of over 100 scientists, was recently accepted for publication in the Astrophysical Journal Letters.

Discovered in 1912, cosmic rays are thought to consist of the bare protons of hydrogen nuclei, or the centers of heavier elements. The powerful particles stream in from various regions of the sky, with energies reaching as high as 300 billion billion electron volts. Cosmic rays are classified as "ultrahigh-energy" if they carry the energy of 1 billion billion electron volts, comparable to a fast-pitch baseball.

While low-energy cosmic rays come from stars like the sun over the course of their life or explosive deaths, the origins of more energetic rays remain a mystery.

Suggested progenitors for the more powerful cosmic rays include Active Galactic Nuclei (AGN), where material is sucked into supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies, or gamma-ray bursts from the explosive supernova death of massive stars. Other potential causes include shockwaves from noisy radio galaxies and colliding galaxies. More exotic possibilities include the decay of "cosmic strings," hypothetical one-dimensional defects proposed by string theory.

Ultrahigh-energy cosmic rays stem from outside the Milky Way, but are weakened by interactions with the cosmic microwave background radiation — the leftover fingerprint from the Big Bang that kicked off the universe. As a result, 90 percent of the detected ultrahigh-energy cosmic rays originate within 300 million light-years of Earth.

According to Jui, a separate study currently in progress suggests that the distribution of ultrahigh-energy cosmic rays in the northern sky is related to concentrations of large-scale structures like clusters and superclusters of galaxies.

"It tells us there is at least a good chance these are coming from matter we can see, as opposed to a different class of mechanisms where you are producing these particles with exotic processes," Jui said.

The Telescope Array houses 523 detectors spread over 300 square miles of desert. Physicists hope to make the observatory more sensitive by doubling the number of detectors and quadrupling the area they cover, which should capture more cosmic rays.

"With more events, we are more likely to see structure in that hotspot blob, and that may point us toward the real sources," Jui said.

A preprint of the article may be found online at arXiv.org
http://news.yahoo.com/big-dipper-hotspot-may-help-solve-100-old-135703814.html (http://news.yahoo.com/big-dipper-hotspot-may-help-solve-100-old-135703814.html)
Title: First Glimpse of Higgs Bosons at Work Revealed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 29, 2014, 08:26:57 PM
Quote
First Glimpse of Higgs Bosons at Work Revealed
LiveScience.com
By Tia Ghose, Staff Writer  7 hours ago



An extremely rare collision of massive subatomic particles could reveal the nuts and bolts of how the subatomic particles called Higgs bosons impart mass to other particles.

The Higgs boson particle, which was detected for the first time in 2012, is essentially tossed around like a ball between two force-carrying particles known as W-bosons when they scatter, or bounce off of one another, a new data analysis revealed.

The data comes from the ATLAS experiment, the same proton-collision experiment that revealed the Higgs boson, at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), a 17-mille-long (27 kilometers) underground atom smasher on the border of Switzerland and France.

By studying how much the Higgs sticks to the W-bosons during this scattering process, the team could learn new details about how strongly the elusive Higgs boson interacts with the field that gives all particles their mass.

"We are basically observing the Higgs boson at work to see whether it does its job the way we expect it to," said study co-author Marc-André Pleier, a physicist with the ATLAS project, and a researcher at Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton, New York.


Higgs Field

For decades, the Standard Model, the reigning physics theory that describes the menagerie of subatomic particles, was both astonishingly predictive and obviously incomplete.

The long-sought missing piece of the Standard Model was the Higgs boson, a particle proposed by English physicist Peter Higgs and others in 1964 to explain how certain particles get their mass. The theory held that particles like W-bosons pick up mass as they travel through a field, now known as the Higgs field. The more particles "drag" through the field, the more massive they are. If the Higgs field did exist, then by extension another particle, the now-famous Higgs boson (dubbed "the God Particle," a nickname scientists dislike), should also exist as a vibration of that field when other subatomic particles interact with the field.

In 2012, scientists announced they had found the Higgs boson. In the years since, physicists have been busy analyzing data from collisions at the LHC to figure out exactly how the Higgs boson does its job of giving particles mass.


Impossible physics

Other parts of the Standard Model didn't add up without the Higgs boson. For instance, in theory proton collisions could produce pairs of W-bosons that would then scatter, or bounce off of, one another. (W-bosons mediate the weak nuclear force, which governs radioactive decay and fuels the chemical reactions at the hearts of stars, Pleier said.)

At high-enough collision energies, however, the theory predicted that W-boson scattering would occur more than 100 percent of the time, which is physically impossible, Pleier said.

So physicists proposed a subatomic game of catch, where a Higgs boson could bounce off one W-boson in a colliding pair, and be absorbed by the other member of the pair, Pleier said.

The extra Higgs, in essence, fixed the mathematical glitch in the theory.

But W-boson scattering was incredibly rare: It occurs only once in 100 trillion proton-proton collisions, so scientists never had a chance to test their theory, Pleier said.

"It's even rarer to observe than the Higgs boson," Pleier told Live Science.


Higgs at work

While poring over data from the ATLAS experiment, researchers saw, for the first time, glimpses of elusive W-boson scattering, Pleier said.

So far, the team has seen hints of just 34 W-boson scattering events, which showed that the Higgs boson does play some role in this scattering process.

But there is still too little data to say exactly how "sticky" the Higgs boson is to these W-bosons, which would reveal how sticky the Higgs field is. That, in turn, could help reveal more details about how the Higgs field gives other particles their mass, Pleier said.

If follow-up data reveals that the Higgs Boson doesn't seem to be sticky enough, that's an indication that other subatomic particles may be involved in W-boson scattering, he said.

When the LHC ramps up again in 2015 at higher energies, the team should be able to produce 150 times more data than they were collecting when the atom smasher shut down in 2013, which could help flesh out the now-shadowy picture of the Higgs boson in action.

The findings have been accepted for publication in the journal Physical Review Letters and were published in the preprint journal arXiv.
http://news.yahoo.com/first-glimpse-higgs-bosons-revealed-122000650.html (http://news.yahoo.com/first-glimpse-higgs-bosons-revealed-122000650.html)
Title: Milky Weigh: scientists take weight of the galaxy
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 30, 2014, 08:55:04 PM
Quote
Milky Weigh: scientists take weight of the galaxy
AFP
4 hours ago


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/T.ykz2ANJyS9L53fxjxZBw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTcyNjtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/afp.com/8c3ea23f0b117f6ab3b135213b4d821d2be25509.jpg)
This image obtained from NASA on January 24, 2013 shows the Large Magellanic Cloud, a satellite galaxy of the Milky Way (AFP Photo/)



London (AFP) - The Milky Way galaxy is lighter than previously thought, according to new research published by British-based scientists on Wednesday.

The study led by the University of Edinburgh is the first time that scientists have been able to measure accurately the mass of the galaxy that contains our solar system, the researchers said.

The Milky Way was found to contain only half the mass of its neighbour Andromeda, which has a similar spiral structure to our own.

"We always suspected that Andromeda is more massive than the Milky Way, but weighting both galaxies simultaneously proved to be extremely challenging," said Doctor Jorge Penarrubia, who led the study.

The research concluded that the extra mass of the Andromeda galaxy was down to dark matter, a little-understood invisible substance that accounts for most of the outer regions of galaxies.

The scientists estimate that the Milky Way contains approximately half as much dark matter as its neighbouring galaxy, though the two are of similar dimensions.

The Milky Way and Andromeda are the two largest in a region of galaxies known to astronomers as the Local Group.

Ninety percent of the matter in both galaxies is invisible, and until now scientists have been unable to prove which is larger.

Previous research has only measured the mass of a galaxy's inner region, but the new study was able to calculate how much invisible matter is contained in outer regions.

Researchers say the findings will help them to understand how the outer regions of galaxies are structured.

"Our study combined recent measurements of the relative motion between our galaxy and Andromeda with the largest catalogue of nearby galaxies ever compiled to make this possible," said Penarrubia.

The findings of the study are supported by research at the University of Cambridge, which used a different set of data to reach very similar results.

The study was published in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society journal.
http://news.yahoo.com/milky-weigh-scientists-weight-galaxy-144138703.html (http://news.yahoo.com/milky-weigh-scientists-weight-galaxy-144138703.html)
Title: Supernovas Might Create Weird 'Zombie Stars'
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 07, 2014, 12:40:22 AM
Quote
Supernovas Might Create Weird 'Zombie Stars'
SPACE.com
by Charles Q. Choi, SPACE.com Contributor  3 hours ago


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/e8zh6ijzfnRaZcxLDiJdjA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMztweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Supernovas_Might_Create_Weird_%27Zombie-864f9545938e72d5ca4936c4a451f180)
These observations from the Hubble Space Telescope show before and after views for the supernova SN 2012Z in the outskirts of the galaxy NGC 1309, 108 million light-years from Earth. Inset: SN 2012Z is seen in 2013, while data from 2005-2006 show its perceived progenitor star pair. Image released Aug. 6, 2014.  Credit: NASA and ESA, Curtis McCully and Saurabh W Jha (Rutgers), Ryan J Foley (Illinois)



The most powerful stellar blasts in the universe may not always destroy stars in explosive supernovas as scientists had thought, but instead leave behind a remnant "zombie star," astronomers say.

These new findings may shed light on the origins of a mysterious kind of star explosion known as a Type Iax supernova, the researchers added.

Supernovas are the most powerful star explosions in the universe. They are bright enough to momentarily outshine their entire galaxies.

Scientists think a kind of stellar blast, known as a Type Ia supernova, occurs when one star pours enough fuel onto a dying companion star, known as a white dwarf, to trigger an extraordinary nuclear explosion. However, researchers have never actually seen what stars actually give rise to these outbursts, thus making their origins uncertain.

"Astronomers have been searching for decades for the progenitors of type Ia's," study co-author Saurabh Jha, an astronomer at Rutgers University in Piscataway, N.J., said in a statement. "Type Ia's are important because they're used to measure vast cosmic distances and the expansion of the universe."


Supernova sleuths

To learn more about white-dwarfsupernovas, astronomers looked at an explosion dubbed SN 2012Z, discovered by the Lick Observatory Supernova Search in 2012. NASA's Hubble Space Telescope also took images of the supernova's host galaxy — NGC 1309, located 110 million light-years away — in 2005, 2006 and 2010 before the explosion took place.

This past data helped researchers discover the apparent progenitor of the supernova. The likelihood the star they detected is related to the supernova is more than 99 percent, they said.

"We were tremendously excited to see a progenitor system for this supernova," lead study author Curtis McCully, an astronomer at Rutgers, told Space.com. "No one had ever seen a progenitor system for a white-dwarf supernova in pre-explosion data, so our expectation was that we wouldn't see anything. Nature surprised us, which is always exciting."

The researchers had expected that the supernova's progenitor system would be too faint to see, as was the case with previous searches for type Ia supernova progenitors.

"I was very surprised to see anything at the location of the supernova," McCully recalled.


Strange supernova science

SN 2012Z was actually a mysterious kind of exploding star known as a Type Iax supernova. First recognized 12 years ago, Type Iax supernovas were originally thought to be fainter cousins of the more common Type Ia supernova, but they now seem to be a related but distinct class. So far, astronomers have identified more than 30 of these unusual Type Iax supernovas, which occur at a rate of about one-fifth that of Type Ia supernovae, but release only between 1 and 50 percent of the energy.

The astronomers found that the progenitor system of SN 2012Z apparently consisted of a white dwarf and a bright-blue companion star. The researchers suggested the companion is a "helium star" whose outer shells of hydrogen have been stripped away, leaving only its helium core.

"Our results show that at least some white-dwarf supernova explosions arise from a white dwarf that accretes material from a luminous companion star," Jha told Space.com.

Instead of destroying the exploding star — as supernovas are often thought to do — SN 2012Z may have left behind a battered and bruised white dwarf, which the researchers called a "zombie star."

"There are indications that the white dwarf may not have been completely disrupted," study co-author Ryan Foley, an astronomer at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, told Space.com.

These findings suggest that Type Ia supernovas may have different origins than Type Iax supernovas. For instance, before and after images of Type Ia supernovas like SN 2014J and SN 2011fe would have been capable of revealing any blue progenitor system if one existed.However, none was seen.

"It certainly seems like most normal Type Ia supernovae cannot have a luminous blue companion star like in the case for this Type Iax supernova," Jha told Space.com.

Instead, this Type Iax supernova resembles a nova star explosion — a much-less-powerful stellar blast — called V445 Puppis, an explosion in the Milky Way that astronomers detected in 2000. Novas are like Type Ia supernovas in that they occur when white dwarfs accumulate fuel from a companion star, but novas do not completely destroy their stars like supernovas are thought to do. The researchers added that the progenitor system V445 Puppis nova is thought to consist of a white dwarf and a companion helium star, maybe just like SN 2012Z.

One possible scenario for this system the researchers modeled is that it originally consisted of two stars — one weighing four times the mass of the sun, and the other seven times the mass of the sun. The stars began exchanging hydrogen and helium fuel back and forth, with the larger star eventually dwindling to become a white dwarf about the mass of the sun, the researchers suggested.

The blue companion star, in turn, swelled in size and shed its outer layers, until it became a helium star about twice the mass of the sun. The white dwarf then siphoned matter from its blue companion until the extra fuel made it explode as a Type Iax supernova and blow off about half its mass, instead of completely dying, the researchers explained.

However, the researchers acknowledged that they cannot yet rule out other possibilities for the identity of the blue star they saw. For instance, it could have been a massive star 30 to 40 times the mass of the sun that destroyed itself when it detonated.

To settle the question once and for all, the researchers "will get future observations of the system in late 2015 with the Hubble Space Telescope after the supernova light has faded," Jha said. There are two possibilities: Either researchers will see no star at all, as would be the case if the supernova's progenitor was a massive star, or a helium star will be there "but it will have changed due to the explosion," Jha said. "We also hope to see the remnant zombie star," Jha added.

The research is detailed in the Aug. 7 edition of the journal Nature.
http://news.yahoo.com/supernovas-might-create-weird-zombie-stars-193726668.html (http://news.yahoo.com/supernovas-might-create-weird-zombie-stars-193726668.html)
Title: The Universe Appears to Be Missing Some Light
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2014, 05:43:37 PM
Quote
What?! The Universe Appears to Be Missing Some Light
SPACE.com
by Charles Q. Choi, SPACE.com Contributor  3 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/kMEiMQi1.Y12q5.Wlob_Wg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTI2NTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/What?!_The_Universe_Appears_to-5a1e25fff46d8ec2757ce7b5dc2878cc)
New data from the Hubble Space Telescope and computer simulations have revealed that the universe has much less ultraviolet light than previously thought.



An extraordinary amount of ultraviolet light appears to be missing from the universe, scientists have found.

One potential source of this missing light might be the mysterious dark matter that makes up most of the mass in the cosmos. But a simpler explanation could be that ultra violet light escapes from galaxies more easily than is currently thought, according to the new research.

This puzzle begins with hydrogen, the most common element in the universe, which makes up about 75 percent of known matter. High-energy ultraviolet light can convert electrically neutral hydrogen atoms into electrically charged ions. The two known sources for such ionizing rays are hot young stars and quasars, which are supermassive black holes more than a million times the mass of the sun that release extraordinarily large amounts of light as they rip apart stars and gobble matter.

Astronomers previously found that ionizing rays from hot young stars are nearly always absorbed by gas in their home galaxies. As such, they virtually never escape to affect intergalactic hydrogen.

However, when scientists performed supercomputer simulations of the amount of intergalactic hydrogen that should exist and compared their results with observations from the Hubble Space Telescope's Cosmic Origins Spectrograph, they found the amount of light from known quasars is five times lower than what is needed to explain the amount of electrically neutral intergalactic hydrogen observed.

"It's as if you're in a big, brightly-lit room, but you look around and see only a few 40-watt lightbulbs," lead study author Juna Kollmeier, a theoretical astrophysicist at the Observatories of the Carnegie Institution of Washington in Pasadena, Calif., said in a statement. "Where is all that light coming from? It's missing."

The researchers are calling this giant deficit of ultraviolet light "the photon underproduction crisis."

"In modern astrophysics, you very rarely find large mismatches like the one we are talking about here," Kollmeier told Space.com. "When you see one, you know that there is an opportunity to learn something new about the universe, and that's amazing."

"The great thing about a 400 percent discrepancy is that you know something is really wrong," study co-author David Weinberg at Ohio State University said in a statement. "We still don't know for sure what it is, but at least one thing we thought we knew about the present day universe isn't true."

Strangely, this missing light only appears in the nearby, relatively well-studied cosmos. When telescopes focus on light from galaxies billions of light years away — and therefore from billions of years in the past — no problem is seen. In other words, the amount of ultraviolet light in the early universe makes sense, but the amount of ultraviolet light in the nearby universe does not.

"The authors have performed a careful and thorough analysis of the problem," said theoretical astrophysicist Abraham Loeb, chairman of the astronomy department at Harvard University, who did not take part in this research.

The most exciting possibility these findings raise is that the missing photons are coming from some exotic new source, not galaxies or quasars at all, Kollmeier said. For example, dark matter, the invisible and intangible substance thought to make up five-sixths of all matter in the universe, might be capable of decay and generating this extra light.

"You know it's a crisis when you start seriously talking about decaying dark matter," study co-author Neal Katz at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst said in a statement.

There still may be a simpler explanation for this missing light, however. Astronomers could be underestimating the fraction of ultraviolet light that escapes from galaxies in the nearby universe. "All that one needs is an average escape probability on the order of 15 percent to relieve the discrepancy," Loeb told Space.com.

Nearby, recent "low-redshift" galaxies have less gas to absorb ultraviolet rays that more distant, early "high-redshift" galaxies, Loeb noted.

"The more I think about it, the more plausible it appears that the escape fraction of ultraviolet photons is higher in local galaxies than in high-redshift galaxies," Loeb said.

On the other hand, "the biggest problem with this possible solution is that there are measurements of local galaxies that indicate the average escape fraction is significantly lower than 15 percent — more like 5 percent," Kollmeier said."In principle, it is possible that these galaxies are not representative and therefore we need to do more such measurements, but we cannot just dismiss the data."

Another potential explanation is ionization of intergalactic hydrogen by x-rays and cosmic rays, Loeb said. Although he noted this radiation does not play a major role in ionizing intergalactic hydrogen in the most distant corners and earliest times in the universe, astronomers may want to see how much of a role x-rays and cosmic rays play in the nearby universe, "where they are produced more vigorously," he said.

The scientists detailed their findings in the July 10 issue of the Astrophysical Journal Letters.
http://news.yahoo.com/universe-appears-missing-light-125115861.html (http://news.yahoo.com/universe-appears-missing-light-125115861.html)
Title: 3D Galactic Map May Solve Interstellar Puzzle
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2014, 08:12:03 PM
Quote
3D Galactic Map May Solve Interstellar Puzzle
SPACE.com
By Nola Taylor Redd, SPACE.com Contributor  44 minutes ago


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/DMqAvZOt04AEpDBgenSwFw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyNztweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/3D_Galactic_Map_May_Solve-68cb19a52e40ed4257836b503266dd21)
Maps of the measured DIB absorption in respect to the area they cover in our galaxy.



Scientists have created the first 3D map of a type of astronomical interference that has puzzled astronomers for nearly a century.

The new map could help scientists finally nail down the identity of the material that creates "diffuse interstellar bands" (DIBs) in observations of stars, the study authors said.

The researchers focused on the single DIB 8620, one of over 400 absorption lines, with the goal of narrowing down its source.

"DIB 8620 does not seem special compared to other DIBs," lead author Janez Kos, of the University of Ljubljana in Slovenia, told Space.com by email.

However, as a spectral feature often used to measure stellar motion, it is "the most observed DIB."

The result was the first large-scale map of DIB interference, and the first three-dimensional study of the DIB-bearing clouds in the interstellar medium.


(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/511My0iOpDQSoJDlbxvi.g--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU3MTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/3D_Galactic_Map_May_Solve-2051b93f141cfe8a1b564b15af7fe417)
These maps show the amount of light absorbed by the DIB (left) and the dust between stars (right). Red indicates that more light was absorbed than blue. The top maps show the northern galactic hemisphere, while the bottom row shows the southern


Astronomers break the light streaming from distant stars into prismlike lines called spectra, separated by wavelength, in order to determine what stars are made of. Some of the light is absorbed by the material it passes through along the way, creating absorption bands in the data.

While some of the bands are caused by cool gases in the stars' atmospheres, diffuse interstellar bands have remained a mystery since their identification in 1922. These bands are spread across visible, infrared, and ultraviolet wavelengths, and correspond to no known atom or molecule.

Some of the first proposed sources were molecules on dust grainsbetween stars, according to Kos. It has also been suggested that the strange absorption bands are caused by carbon-based molecules that are either simple or in long chains.

"None of these were ever proved to be the carriers," Kos said.

In order to investigate DIB 8620, Kos and his international team of astronomers turned to the Radial Velocity Experiment (RAVE) survey of stars in the Milky Way created by the Australian Astronomical Observatory’s Schmidt telescope. RAVE contained the spectra of almost half a million stars across the galaxy, all located in the southern sky.

Using the measurements of DIB 8620 in the spectra of the stars, Kos and his team created a map of the interference source across the galaxy, measuring the density of the material by how strong its absorption line is in the stars detected by RAVE. The data taken from the survey revealed the distance of each star, allowing for the 3D mapping of the material in the interstellar medium.

The scientists then compared the DIB map with an independently constructed map of the interstellar dustalong the plane of the galaxy.

While the results are similar, the two maps don’t match up precisely, suggesting that there is a "strong correspondence between the two," according to the research paper. Rising above the plane of the galaxy, the density of the source for DIB 8620 drops more slowly than the density of the dust — a surprising find since the two sources otherwise align fairly well.

"Even though the correlation between the DIB and dust is good, the two components do not share the same distribution in the interstellar medium," Kos said.

The implication is that "DIBs experience a mechanism of their own during their creation and migration through the galaxy," Kos said.

The team cautions that these implications should not be extended to all DIBs, as different bands demonstrate different behavior. However, the techniques used to study DIB 8620, combined with other surveys of the Milky Way, should allow for similar maps to be made, narrowing down the source of a century-old mystery. RAVE limited the team to studying only a single band, but different surveys should allow for the study of some of the other 400-plus measurements.

The research was published online today (Aug 14) in the journal Science.
http://news.yahoo.com/3d-galactic-map-may-solve-interstellar-puzzle-181959255.html (http://news.yahoo.com/3d-galactic-map-may-solve-interstellar-puzzle-181959255.html)
Title: Stephen Hawking Says 'God Particle' Could Wipe Out the Universe
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 08, 2014, 09:49:42 PM
Quote
Stephen Hawking Says 'God Particle' Could Wipe Out the Universe
LiveScience.com
By Kelly Dickerson, Staff Writer  1 hour ago


(http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/5Voib.CHEYGDCWEqZFd9rA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTUzMDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/LiveScience.com/higgs.jpg1410200755)
Simulated data from the Large Hadron Collider particle detector shows the Higgs boson produced after two protons collide.



Stephen Hawking bet Gordon Kane $100 that physicists would not discover the Higgs boson. After losing that bet when physicists detected the particle in 2012, Hawking lamented the discovery, saying it made physics less interesting. Now, in the preface to a new collection of essays and lectures called "Starmus," the famous theoretical physicist is warning that the particle could one day be responsible for the destruction of the known universe.

Hawking is not the only scientist who thinks so. The theory of a Higgs boson doomsday, where a quantum fluctuation creates a vacuum "bubble" that expands through space and wipes out the universe, has existed for a while. However, scientists don't think it could happen anytime soon.

"Most likely it will take 10 to the 100 years [a 1 followed by 100 zeroes] for this to happen, so probably you shouldn't sell your house and you should continue to pay your taxes," Joseph Lykken, a theoretical physicist at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois, said during his lecture at the SETI Institute on Sept. 2. "On the other hand it may already happened, and the bubble might be on its way here now. And you won't know because it's going at the speed of light so there's not going to be any warning."

The Higgs boson, sometimes referred to as the 'god particle,' much to the chagrin of scientists who prefer the official name, is a tiny particle that researchers long suspected existed. Its discovery lends strong support to the Standard Model of particle physics, or the known rules of particle physics that scientists believe govern the basic building blocks of matter. The Higgs boson particle is so important to the Standard Model because it signals the existence of the Higgs field, an invisible energy field present throughout the universe that imbues other particles with mass. Since its discovery two years ago, the particle has been making waves in the physics community.

Now that scientists measured the particle's mass last year, they can make many other calculations, including one that seems to spell out the end of the universe.


Universe doomsday

The Higgs boson is about 126 billion electron volts, or about the 126 times the mass of a proton. This turns out to be the precise mass needed to keep the universe on the brink of instability, but physicists say the delicate state will eventually collapse and the universe will become unstable. That conclusion involves the Higgs field.

The Higgs field emerged at the birth of the universe and has acted as its own source of energy since then, Lykken said. Physicists believe the Higgs field may be slowly changing as it tries to find an optimal balance of field strength and energy required to maintain that strength.

"Just like matter can exist as liquid or solid, so the Higgs field, the substance that fills all space-time, could exist in two states," Gian Giudice, a theoretical physicist at the CERN lab, where the Higgs boson was discovered, explained during a TED talk in October 2013.

Right now the Higgs field is in a minimum potential energy state — like a valley in a field of hills and valleys. The huge amount of energy required to change into another state is like chugging up a hill. If the Higgs field makes it over that energy hill, some physicists think the destruction of the universe is waiting on the other side.

But an unlucky quantum fluctuation, or a change in energy, could trigger a process called "quantum tunneling." Instead of having to climb the energy hill, quantum tunneling would make it possible for the Higgs field to "tunnel" through the hill into the next, even lower-energy valley. This quantum fluctuation will happen somewhere out in the empty vacuum of space between galaxies, and will create a "bubble," Lykken said.

Here's how Hawking describes this Higgs doomsday scenario in the new book: "The Higgs potential has the worrisome feature that it might become metastable at energies above 100 [billion] gigaelectronvolts (GeV). … This could mean that the universe could undergo catastrophic vacuum decay, with a bubble of the true vacuum expanding at the speed of light. This could happen at any time and we wouldn't see it coming."

The Higgs field inside that bubble will be stronger and have a lower energy level than its surroundings. Even if the Higgs field inside the bubble were slightly stronger than it is now, it could shrink atoms, disintegrate atomic nuclei, and make it so that hydrogen would be the only element that could exist in the universe, Giudice explained in his TED talk.

But using a calculation that involves the currently known mass of the Higgs boson, researchers predict this bubble would contain an ultra-strong Higgs field that would expand at the speed of light through space-time. The expansion would be unstoppable and would wipe out everything in the existing universe, Lykken said.

"More interesting to us as physicists is when you do this calculation using the standard physics we know about, it turns out we're right on the edge between a stable universe and an unstable universe," Lykken said. "We're sort of right on the edge where the universe can last for a long time, but eventually it should go 'boom.' There's no principle that we know of that would put us right on the edge."


Not all doom and gloom

Either all of space-time exists on this razor's edge between a stable and unstable universe, or the calculation is wrong, Lykken said.

If the calculation is wrong, it must come from a fundamental part of physics that scientists have not discovered yet. Lykken said one possibility is the existence of invisible dark matter that physicists believe makes up about 27 percent of the universe. Discovering how dark matter interacts with the rest of the universe could reveal properties and rules physicists don't know about yet.

The other is the idea of "supersymmetry." In the Standard Model, every particle has a partner, or its own anti-particle. But supersymmetry is a theory that suggests every particle also has a supersymmetric partner particle. The existence of these other particles would help stabilize the universe, Lykken said.

"We found the Higgs boson, which was a big deal, but we're still trying to understand what it means and we're also trying to understand all the other things that go along with it

"This is very much the beginning of the story and I've shown you some directions that story could go in, but I think there could be surprises that no one has even thought of," Lykken concludes in his lecture.

http://news.yahoo.com/stephen-hawking-says-god-particle-could-wipe-universe-193636349.html (http://news.yahoo.com/stephen-hawking-says-god-particle-could-wipe-universe-193636349.html)

---

The dark matter would never permit it...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 22, 2014, 10:12:29 PM
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11514.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11514.0)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 22, 2014, 10:46:03 PM
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11477.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11477.0)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 23, 2014, 06:04:25 PM
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11546.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11546.0)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 23, 2014, 07:57:43 PM
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11568.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11568.0)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 24, 2014, 04:43:07 PM
Physics professor says she has proof that black holes don't exist

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11597.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11597.0)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 24, 2014, 05:18:47 PM
Epic Big Bang Discovery Might Just Be Space Dust

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11603.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=11603.0)
Title: Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 26, 2014, 09:18:12 PM
Quote
Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God
The physicist explains that science now offers more convincing explanations for existence. He is therefore an atheist.
CNET
by  Chris Matyszczyk @ChrisMatyszczyk/September 26, 2014 9:33 AM PDT


(http://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/09/26/7a42837e-657a-4c79-92af-86ae53cca366/resize/370xauto/72700ecc31945c54ca85d18452a45b67/hawk56.png)
Stephen Hawking comes right out and says it. He is an atheist.  Hadoualex/YouTube screenshot by Chris Matyszczyk/CNET


If I were a scientist, I'd stick to the Goldman Sachs principle: bet on both sides.

"Believe in science, believe in God" seems to cover all the possibilities and gives you the best chance for a cheery afterlife.

For a time, it was thought that astrophysicist Stephen Hawking had also left a tiny gap in his credo window for a magical deity. However, he has now come out and declared that there is no God.

He gave an interview to Spain's El Mundo in which he expressed his firm belief that el mundo was the work of scientifically explainable phenomena, not of a supreme being.

Hawking said: "Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation."

I'm not sure whether there was a specific moment in which science overtook the deistic explanation of existence. However, El Mundo pressed him on the suggestion in "A Brief History of Time" that a unifying theory of science would help mankind "know the mind of God."

Hawking now explained: "What I meant by 'we would know the mind of God' is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God. Which there isn't. I'm an atheist."

He added: "Religion believes in miracles, but these aren't compatible with science."

Perhaps. But some look at, for example, the human eye and wonder how that exciting ball of jelly could have come about scientifically.

Hawking's been tending toward such an absolute pronouncement for a while. In a speech last year, he offered an explanation of how the world came to being without God. He mused: "What was God doing before the divine creation? Was he preparing hell for people who asked such questions?"

I do worry, though, about Hawking's sweetly divine faith in humanity. He told El Mundo: "In my opinion, there is no aspect of reality beyond the reach of the human mind."

If that's true, the human mind still has to develop exponentially to explain everyday phenomena, such as social networking. And then there's Hawking's insistence that his speech synthesizer, which gives him a curiously American accent, has had this consequence: "With the American accent, I've had far more success with women."

We definitely need some serious research to explain that.
http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/#ftag=YHF65cbda0 (http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/#ftag=YHF65cbda0)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on September 27, 2014, 11:50:59 AM
I'm not surprised, but Mr. Hawking needs to be careful. Nietzsche once wrote boldly: "God is dead." Not long after, God pronounced definitively: "Nietzsche is dead."
Title: Re: Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God
Post by: Yitzi on September 28, 2014, 02:49:42 AM
Quote
Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God
The physicist explains that science now offers more convincing explanations for existence. He is therefore an atheist.
CNET
by  Chris Matyszczyk @ChrisMatyszczyk/September 26, 2014 9:33 AM PDT


(http://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/09/26/7a42837e-657a-4c79-92af-86ae53cca366/resize/370xauto/72700ecc31945c54ca85d18452a45b67/hawk56.png)
Stephen Hawking comes right out and says it. He is an atheist.  Hadoualex/YouTube screenshot by Chris Matyszczyk/CNET


If I were a scientist, I'd stick to the Goldman Sachs principle: bet on both sides.

"Believe in science, believe in God" seems to cover all the possibilities and gives you the best chance for a cheery afterlife.

For a time, it was thought that astrophysicist Stephen Hawking had also left a tiny gap in his credo window for a magical deity. However, he has now come out and declared that there is no God.

He gave an interview to Spain's El Mundo in which he expressed his firm belief that el mundo was the work of scientifically explainable phenomena, not of a supreme being.

Hawking said: "Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation."

I'm not sure whether there was a specific moment in which science overtook the deistic explanation of existence. However, El Mundo pressed him on the suggestion in "A Brief History of Time" that a unifying theory of science would help mankind "know the mind of God."

Hawking now explained: "What I meant by 'we would know the mind of God' is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God. Which there isn't. I'm an atheist."

He added: "Religion believes in miracles, but these aren't compatible with science."

Perhaps. But some look at, for example, the human eye and wonder how that exciting ball of jelly could have come about scientifically.

Hawking's been tending toward such an absolute pronouncement for a while. In a speech last year, he offered an explanation of how the world came to being without God. He mused: "What was God doing before the divine creation? Was he preparing hell for people who asked such questions?"

I do worry, though, about Hawking's sweetly divine faith in humanity. He told El Mundo: "In my opinion, there is no aspect of reality beyond the reach of the human mind."

If that's true, the human mind still has to develop exponentially to explain everyday phenomena, such as social networking. And then there's Hawking's insistence that his speech synthesizer, which gives him a curiously American accent, has had this consequence: "With the American accent, I've had far more success with women."

We definitely need some serious research to explain that.
http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/#ftag=YHF65cbda0 (http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/#ftag=YHF65cbda0)


Hawking is probably qualified to talk about whether the existence of the universe can serve as a proof for God, but not about other potential proofs for God (e.g. historical ones), much less whether God exists period.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 28, 2014, 03:13:34 AM
Hawking stopped letting whether he was qualified to render an expert opinion while talking to reporters bother him DECADES ago...
Title: Pope Francis says Big Bang theory does not contradict role of God
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 29, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
Quote
Pope Francis says Big Bang theory does not contradict role of God
Reuters  October 28, 2014 2:45 PM



VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Scientific theories including the "Big Bang" believed to have brought the universe into being 13.7 billion years ago and the idea that life developed through a process of evolution do not conflict with Catholic teaching, Pope Francis said on Tuesday.

Addressing a meeting of the Pontificial Academy of Sciences, an independent body housed in the Vatican and financed largely by the Holy See, Francis said scientific explanations for the world did not exclude the role of God in creation.

"The beginning of the world is not the work of chaos that owes its origin to something else, but it derives directly from a supreme principle that creates out of love," he said.

"The 'Big Bang', that today is considered to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the creative intervention of God, on the contrary it requires it," he said.

"Evolution in nature is not in contrast with the notion of (divine) creation because evolution requires the creation of the beings that evolve," the pope said.

The Church once opposed early scientific explanations of the universe that contradicted the account of creation in the Bible, famously condemning the 17th century astronomer Galileo Galilei who showed that the earth revolved around the sun.

However, more recently it has sought to shed its image as an enemy of science and the pope's comments largely echoed statements from his predecessors.

Pope Pius XII described evolution as a valid scientific approach to the development of humans in 1950 and Pope John Paul reiterated that in 1996.

In 2011, the former Pope Benedict said scientific theories on the origin and development of the universe and humans, while not in conflict with faith, left many questions unanswered.

(Reporting by Antonio Denti; writing by James Mackenzie; editing by Ralph Boulton)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Rusty Edge on October 30, 2014, 03:02:40 AM
Well finally, somebody infallible has weighed in on the subject. I guess that's settled, then.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He ( Hawking ) added: "Religion believes in miracles, but these aren't compatible with science."

Maybe belief in miracles is  a matter of faith to keep an imaginary explanation of the universe internally consistent.

Then again, Science believes in dark matter and dark energy, for whatever the reason.


Sometimes I think religion and science aren't so very different, just two different reflections of the human mind.

Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on November 02, 2014, 04:03:23 PM
Sometimes I think religion and science aren't so very different, just two different reflections of the human mind.

Just like those 'opposite' emotions like love and hate.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2014, 04:43:21 PM
Not Particles, But Chunks: Dark Matter Gets Stranger
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13433.msg61906#msg61906 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13433.msg61906#msg61906)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 17, 2014, 09:29:47 PM
Big Bang's Echo May Reveal Skeleton of the Universe
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13505.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13505.0)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 19, 2014, 07:55:43 PM
GPS joins the hunt for dark matter in time-warping cosmic kinks
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13588.msg62298#msg62298 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13588.msg62298#msg62298)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 19, 2014, 08:02:35 PM
CERN scientists discover 2 new subatomic particles
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13589.msg62301#msg62301 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13589.msg62301#msg62301)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: gwillybj on November 25, 2014, 12:24:36 PM
Study Says Gravity and Higgs Boson Interacted to Save the Universe
EARTHSKY // SCIENCE WIRE, SPACE
RELEASE DATE: NOV 22, 2014

Quote
One second after the Big Bang, the Higgs boson should have caused a Big Crunch, collapsing the universe to nothing. But gravity saved the day.

(http://en.es-static.us/upl/2014/11/bigbang.jpg)
Time line of the universe via NASA/WMAP Science Team
(view much larger: http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/bigbang.jpg (http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/bigbang.jpg))

Since the Higgs boson was discovered at the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland in 2012, researchers have studied this mysterious particle – which is responsible for giving mass to all particles – to learn its contributions to our universe’s inner workings. One startling announcement earlier this year was that the Higgs boson should have made our universe collapse less than one second after it began expanding outward from the Big Bang. The universe did not collapse – it has been known for decades to be expanding – and now European physicists say they can explain why without the need for “new physics.”

Publishing in Physical Review Letters on November 17, 2014, the researcher describe how the spacetime curvature – in effect, gravity – provided the stability needed for the universe to survive expansion in that early period.

The team investigated the interaction between the Higgs particles and gravity, taking into account how it would vary with energy. They show that even a small interaction would have been enough to stabilize the universe from collapsing back to nothing, within a second after the Big Bang. Arttu Rajantie of the Department of Physics at Imperial College London said in a press release:

The Standard Model of particle physics, which scientists use to explain elementary particles and their interactions, has so far not provided an answer to why the universe did not collapse following the Big Bang

Our research investigates the last unknown parameter in the Standard Model – the interaction between the Higgs particle and gravity. This parameter cannot be measured in particle accelerator experiments, but it has a big effect on the Higgs instability during inflation [a faster-than-light expansion just after the Big Bang]. Even a relatively small value is enough to explain the survival of the universe without any new physics!


The team says it will now use observations of the universe on the largest scales to look at this interaction in more detail. In particular, they say, they will use data from current and future European Space Agency missions measuring cosmic microwave background radiation and gravitational waves. Rajantie explained:

Our aim is to measure the interaction between gravity and the Higgs field using cosmological data. If we are able to do that, we will have supplied the last unknown number in the Standard Model of particle physics and be closer to answering fundamental questions about how we are all here.

Bottom line: A second after the Big Bang, the Higgs boson should have caused a Big Crunch, collapsing the universe to nothing. But gravity stepped in to save the day.

Via phys.org (http://phys.org/news/2014-11-gravity-universe-big.html#jCp (http://phys.org/news/2014-11-gravity-universe-big.html#jCp))


http://earthsky.org/space/new-study-says-gravity-and-higgs-boson-interacted-to-save-the-universe (http://earthsky.org/space/new-study-says-gravity-and-higgs-boson-interacted-to-save-the-universe)



So who/what created/made the Higgs Boson and Gravity? What went on before 13.7 billion years ago? :)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
Study Says Gravity and Higgs Boson Interacted to Save the Universe
EARTHSKY // SCIENCE WIRE, SPACE
RELEASE DATE: NOV 22, 2014

Quote
One second after the Big Bang, the Higgs boson should have caused a Big Crunch, collapsing the universe to nothing. But gravity saved the day.

(http://en.es-static.us/upl/2014/11/bigbang.jpg)
Time line of the universe via NASA/WMAP Science Team
(view much larger: http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/bigbang.jpg (http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/bigbang.jpg))

Since the Higgs boson was discovered at the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland in 2012, researchers have studied this mysterious particle – which is responsible for giving mass to all particles – to learn its contributions to our universe’s inner workings. One startling announcement earlier this year was that the Higgs boson should have made our universe collapse less than one second after it began expanding outward from the Big Bang. The universe did not collapse – it has been known for decades to be expanding – and now European physicists say they can explain why without the need for “new physics.”

Publishing in Physical Review Letters on November 17, 2014, the researcher describe how the spacetime curvature – in effect, gravity – provided the stability needed for the universe to survive expansion in that early period.

The team investigated the interaction between the Higgs particles and gravity, taking into account how it would vary with energy. They show that even a small interaction would have been enough to stabilize the universe from collapsing back to nothing, within a second after the Big Bang. Arttu Rajantie of the Department of Physics at Imperial College London said in a press release:

The Standard Model of particle physics, which scientists use to explain elementary particles and their interactions, has so far not provided an answer to why the universe did not collapse following the Big Bang

Our research investigates the last unknown parameter in the Standard Model – the interaction between the Higgs particle and gravity. This parameter cannot be measured in particle accelerator experiments, but it has a big effect on the Higgs instability during inflation [a faster-than-light expansion just after the Big Bang]. Even a relatively small value is enough to explain the survival of the universe without any new physics!


The team says it will now use observations of the universe on the largest scales to look at this interaction in more detail. In particular, they say, they will use data from current and future European Space Agency missions measuring cosmic microwave background radiation and gravitational waves. Rajantie explained:

Our aim is to measure the interaction between gravity and the Higgs field using cosmological data. If we are able to do that, we will have supplied the last unknown number in the Standard Model of particle physics and be closer to answering fundamental questions about how we are all here.

Bottom line: A second after the Big Bang, the Higgs boson should have caused a Big Crunch, collapsing the universe to nothing. But gravity stepped in to save the day.

Via phys.org (http://phys.org/news/2014-11-gravity-universe-big.html#jCp (http://phys.org/news/2014-11-gravity-universe-big.html#jCp))


http://earthsky.org/space/new-study-says-gravity-and-higgs-boson-interacted-to-save-the-universe (http://earthsky.org/space/new-study-says-gravity-and-higgs-boson-interacted-to-save-the-universe)



So who/what created/made the Higgs Boson and Gravity? What went on before 13.7 billion years ago? :)


My theory (answering "yes" to the title question of the thread) is that that's Genesis 1:1-2.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 04:35:29 PM
Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13813.msg62872#msg62872 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13813.msg62872#msg62872)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 02, 2014, 06:19:33 PM
Invisible Dark Matter May Show Up in GPS Signals
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=14028.msg63424#msg63424 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=14028.msg63424#msg63424)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 19, 2015, 07:46:35 PM
Hey Lori - I never got an answer to my question about the bookkeeping of the universe on relativistic effects - I don't expect you to have a definitive answer, but I can't be the first to ask the question -by about 100 years- and I do rather expect you to know a lot more about the science/theories on that than I do.

SO - a question for anyone who thinks they can wrap their head around it:

The entire universe is expanding - the furthest parts we'd observed when I was a lot younger displayed a red-shift indicating they were receding at about half the speed of light, according to our frame of reference.  So according to the reference frame of a hypothetical inhabitant of the far side of the universe, we're doing the receding, and I suppose the relativistic space/time dilatation balances/cancels out.  Fine.

But imagine that I'm aboard a starship, we'll call it the Unity, heading for Alpha Centauri at 10%C, making for a forty year journey (from an outside "resting" reference point).  The universe has no center -something I don't really understand, BTW- and all of it is moving relative to the rest of it, and the time/space dilation of special relativity is a function of %C - is the frame of reference for relative velocity the average position of the rest of the entire universe, and what/where/how's the bookkeeping to determine relative velocity taking place?

Keep in mind that I'm stupid at math, if you think you know the answer.  I would like a layman's understanding, though.  Please.

...

BTW, I hadn't seen the first episode of new Cosmos yet when I said that about the universe maybe being an in-falling black hole...
I believe that's an intelligently-framed question for a layman (with no formal education in cosmology at all)...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on June 19, 2015, 09:52:14 PM
SO - a question for anyone who thinks they can wrap their head around it:

The entire universe is expanding - the furthest parts we'd observed when I was a lot younger displayed a red-shift indicating they were receding at about half the speed of light, according to our frame of reference.  So according to the reference frame of a hypothetical inhabitant of the far side of the universe, we're doing the receding, and I suppose the relativistic space/time dilatation balances/cancels out.  Fine.

But imagine that I'm aboard a starship, we'll call it the Unity, heading for Alpha Centauri at 10%C, making for a forty year journey (from an outside "resting" reference point).  The universe has no center -something I don't really understand, BTW- and all of it is moving relative to the rest of it, and the time/space dilation of special relativity is a function of %C - is the frame of reference for relative velocity the average position of the rest of the entire universe, and what/where/how's the bookkeeping to determine relative velocity taking place?

Keep in mind that I'm stupid at math, if you think you know the answer.  I would like a layman's understanding, though.  Please.

When we say something is moving at 0.1c (which is significantly slower than the Unity, by the way; it was slightly under 0.05c), that has to be with respect to some reference point.  Generally, if the speed in question is far faster than the speed of the destination as seen from the source (as in the case of something moving at 0.05c from Earth to Alpha Centauri), you don't really have to specify since it could be either one and the difference would be a rounding error.  But if moving toward something that was itself moving relative to your source at a non-negligible rate, you would definitely have to specify...and the time/space dilation would depend on what you specify.  (Yes, this means that the time/space dilation of an object depends on where in spacetime you are looking from.)

The rest of the universe has nothing to do with the matter.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 19, 2015, 10:25:22 PM
But if the 'other side' of the universe is receding at .5C, our dilation and theirs would be equal and as if no relativistic time effect was ever present, from both frames of reference(FOR) (the space-compression part of the tau effect is another matter, but way too far away to ever hope to measure, so irrelevant), yes?  But wouldn't the Unity, heading at .1C (Yes.  The average is .1C(approx.) for a(n approximately) four light-year journey taking 40 years, QED) towards the far side of the universe (not that it has one, but you know, the oldest, farthest part observable from our frame) in that direction knock the tau factor difference to that FOR to 40%C and therefore seem to be experiencing time FASTER instead of SLOWER from that far FOR as special relativity demands?

The logic indicates that the FOR has to be isolated in the effects, yes, but everything in motion relative to everything else, it's all relative, and the only way to measure speed is relative to other objects/motion and FORs, and --- what IS space?  It seems like the average position/motion of  the ENTIRE universe ought to come into determining what's motion and what's standing still while the rest of the universe moves (like Prof. Farnsworth's FTL drive in Futurama) and determine the dgree of tau in between, but I think I already demonstrated the logical contradiction in THAT.

I cannot accept an Architect taking care of such details, but He (or whatever natural process to blame for the universe) must have put a mechanism into place to do bookkeeping for such things, I think.  ;brainhurts

Supper;  brb.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Unorthodox on June 19, 2015, 11:15:51 PM
My head hurts now...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 20, 2015, 01:10:33 AM
:D ;brainhurts :D

^Our resident rocket scientist, folks.  I did that to him. ;)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 20, 2015, 02:04:49 AM
-Also, let me be the first to point out my maths error; the relevant velocity of that far side of the universe in the direction of Alpha C. ought to be assumed to be .25C, not .5 - base assumption that the mutual recession is a function of universal expansion and (even allowing for some local variation wherever in between) ought to average out approx. to .25C for our area and .25C for the other side.

This actually exacerbates the degree of the logical tau factor anomaly for the far side FOR by double, not allowing for tau actually not becoming that significant until much higher percentagesC, which is not actually relevant for our purposes.

The brain, it is a little broken but quite large. ;brainhurts
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on June 21, 2015, 04:20:57 AM
But if the 'other side' of the universe is receding at .5C, our dilation and theirs would be equal and as if no relativistic time effect was ever present, from both frames of reference(FOR) (the space-compression part of the tau effect is another matter, but way too far away to ever hope to measure, so irrelevant), yes?  But wouldn't the Unity, heading at .1C (Yes.  The average is .1C(approx.) for a(n approximately) four light-year journey taking 40 years, QED)

Wait, did the Unity leave in 2060, or 2016?

Quote
towards the far side of the universe (not that it has one, but you know, the oldest, farthest part observable from our frame) in that direction knock the tau factor difference to that FOR to 40%C and therefore seem to be experiencing time FASTER instead of SLOWER from that far FOR as special relativity demands?

Oh, definitely.  If observer A is moving away from observer B at 0.5c, then something moving from observer A toward observer B will (from observer B's FOR) have time pass faster than for observer A itself.

Remember, if two spaceships pass each other moving at 0.2c each, then each will see the other's time as passing slower than its own.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 21, 2015, 04:47:17 AM
But what IS motion?

(I always understood 40-year trip, so 2060.  'Spose you could look it up...)
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on June 21, 2015, 04:51:04 AM
But what IS motion?

Motion is a description of an object's path through space-time.

Quote
(I always understood 40-year trip, so 2060.  'Spose you could look it up...)

Santiago was born in 2026, so it must be 2060.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 21, 2015, 04:56:46 AM
Several of those guys are already born, but that's a different conversation.

One thet wood hert mah brane less, but less interesting, too.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on June 21, 2015, 09:02:22 PM
Wait, did the Unity leave in 2060, or 2016?

2060. So the average velocity of the Unity was (will be) closer to 11% speed of light (0.11 C), since Alpha Centauri is still about 4.36 lightyears out there. Top velocity must('ve) be(en) a bit higher since there's the acceleration/deceleration phase as well.

BUncle, this 0.5 c receding factor you read about must've been from a time we couldn't see 'as far' into the Universe as we can do today.
Today, what we see of the visible Universe is only what photons from that era have reached us. It must have expanded beyond that time/distance since then, unless the expansion theory is completely wrong.

I think only Aki, Deedee, and Roze must still be born? Can't find a link to that old Firaxis leader biography page right now.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 21, 2015, 09:09:48 PM
You mean YET born?  Haven't kept track.  Domai was recently, IIRC, and I think Zak was in the last six years.

Hmm.  I was thinking an actual distance closer to 4.25ly  -and I did say AVERAGE speed and (approx.)- but the point stands.  I read that .5 around when you were born in an even older text (and I simply do not recall from the mid-70s, when I had no business understanding such heavy stuff, how extensive observations were, re distance/time), and have no idea what the right apparent tau figure is now that we see 13 billion and change out/back.  Again, my point still stands - as long as the logical rigor of the thought experiment holds, my crap maths figures from old data are only examples, as the actual degree of tau is not at issue.

;brainhurts
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on June 21, 2015, 09:38:30 PM
You mean YET born?  Haven't kept track.  Domai was recently, IIRC, and I think Zak was in the last six years.

Just checked with the Alpha Centauri GURPS.  Zak was born in '94. And besides Deedee, Aki, and Roze,  Ulrik, Cha Dawn and Santi must yet be born. Next ones up is Ulrik in 2018.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 21, 2015, 09:52:52 PM
Domai in the last six, then, I believe.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Geo on June 21, 2015, 09:56:44 PM
 ;domai; (http://alphacentauri2.info/official/Profile%20Foreman%20Domai.htm) <--
| CLICK ME
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 21, 2015, 10:09:02 PM
 ;domai; b.06-17-2011 ;nod

Remember, if two spaceships pass each other moving at 0.2c each, then each will see the other's time as passing slower than its own.
I do not recall ever knowing that.  Tough to wrap my noodle around, logically, too. ;brainhurts

Y'know, I ask what IS space and what IS motion for the purposes of special relativity because --- how does the local space-time in our .1C ship measure what's going on when motion's everywhere and all relative and the markers are scant in empty space and adjust the internal space-time tau appropriately?  I seriously see a problem there that seems to demand some universal substrate bookkeeping to work, for all that the very problem is extremely difficult to even articulate. ;brainhurts
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on June 22, 2015, 05:11:18 AM
;domai; b.06-17-2011 ;nod

Remember, if two spaceships pass each other moving at 0.2c each, then each will see the other's time as passing slower than its own.
I do not recall ever knowing that.  Tough to wrap my noodle around, logically, too. ;brainhurts

Y'know, I ask what IS space and what IS motion for the purposes of special relativity because --- how does the local space-time in our .1C ship measure what's going on when motion's everywhere and all relative and the markers are scant in empty space and adjust the internal space-time tau appropriately?  I seriously see a problem there that seems to demand some universal substrate bookkeeping to work, for all that the very problem is extremely difficult to even articulate. ;brainhurts

It doesn't require bookkeeping any more than "if I take a wedge that, when lying flat on the table, has slope 1/sqrt(3), and another wedge like it, and put one leaning against the other, the upper edge of the upper wedge will have slope sqrt(3)".  (Slope 1/sqrt(3) corresponds to 30 degrees, and slope sqrt(3) corresponds to 60 degrees.)

As for how it measures what's going on in other places: By observing light that reaches it from those other places.

If you can turn your objections into a physical paradox (i.e. think of it one way and one thing should be seen, but from another perspective another thing should be seen), that might help clarify them.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 22, 2015, 05:15:03 AM
;brainhurts
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 22, 2015, 05:51:25 AM
...I don't buy that about observing light for a second.  SOMEthing's carrying 'Universal Positioning System' data between FORs, but I doubt it's photons...

I do not deny the possibility of the hand of the Architect at work here, but cannot believe He still does it manually with so many elegant automatic systems everywhere comprising Creation.

Also?  My brain ;brainhurts turns off at too many numbers - the wedges are a blur to me.  Can you try again with less maths?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on June 22, 2015, 03:01:28 PM
...I don't buy that about observing light for a second.  SOMEthing's carrying 'Universal Positioning System' data between FORs, but I doubt it's photons...

Well, it's certainly not faster than photons.  But what do you mean by "'universal positioning system' data"?

Quote
Also?  My brain ;brainhurts turns off at too many numbers - the wedges are a blur to me.  Can you try again with less maths?

Ok...Think of a speed as a sort of slope.  If you have two sloped objects, you can stack one on top of the other, and the composite will have a slope as well, and the new slope can be calculated from the old ones.  But no extraneous "bookkeeping" is needed to determine that new slope; it arising naturally from the geometry.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 22, 2015, 04:23:51 PM
UPS - I just named the hypothetical bookkeeping for the purposes of the discussion.

And okay; your second try sounds a lot like the rubber-sheet analogy model of gravity curving space-time - okay.  I'm certainly familiar with that one.  Hmmm.  I have a thought related to this whole line of inquiry that I need time before I'm ready to try to articulate; it's a blue-sky doozy.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 16, 2015, 02:41:27 AM
Lori!
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 21, 2015, 02:52:31 AM
Bumped for relevance to Religion & Belief thread...
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2015, 03:20:13 PM
Lorizael, PLEASE.

Thoughts on UPS substrate relativistic bookkeeping?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Lorizael on July 23, 2015, 03:44:46 PM
I haven't been following this conversation very closely, and I'm too lazy to read all the way back through, but I agree with Yitzi that there does not need to be a universal positioning system in order for relativity to work.

An analogy that kind of builds off of Yitzi's analogy (at least in my head) is... take a piece of paper and hold it so that you're looking directly at it. That's 8.5x11 inches you have to work with. To someone looking at that paper from a different angle, however, the piece of paper has different dimensions. It might appear narrower, for example. However, it's not just that the paper appears narrower. From that different angle, the paper actually has a smaller surface area with which to interact. This is part of how wings work, by adjusting the surface area that presents at a particular angle in order to catch more or less air.

And what relativity tells us is that no frame of reference (in this case, different viewing angles of a piece of paper) is privileged. But more to the point, the paper simply exists, and its different properties relative to different observers don't need to be encoded anywhere in the universe. They arise plainly out of interaction with that paper (which Yitzi mentions re: photons).

When we talk about special relativity, the properties of interest are velocity, mass, momentum, etc., but all that special relativity is telling us is that these properties take on different values depending on what direction you're looking from, just like apparent surface area. The why has to do with the constancy of the speed of light, which is apparently just as fundamental to the universe as something like the geometry which governs surface area based on viewing angle.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2015, 03:49:32 PM
If you've read from here http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7876.msg73819#msg73819 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7876.msg73819#msg73819) you're caught up enough for me.

That's pretty clear and a good explanation.

I need time for my sub/semi conscious to digest before I respond further, 'cause I don't think I'm quite satisfied yet, but I need to put my finger on it.  ;brainhurts
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 07, 2015, 02:29:07 AM
Ancient Galaxy Is Most Distant Ever Found  (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=16764.msg79040#msg79040)

...Speaking of the oldest and fastest currently observed...

---

Now as to your answer, Lori, it addresses the appearance to an outside observer fine, but I don't think it answers my question; motion is relative, so what's the frame of reference for the Unity to determine relativistic effects/
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on August 07, 2015, 05:49:06 AM
Ancient Galaxy Is Most Distant Ever Found  (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=16764.msg79040#msg79040)

...Speaking of the oldest and fastest currently observed...

---

Now as to your answer, Lori, it addresses the appearance to an outside observer fine, but I don't think it answers my question; motion is relative, so what's the frame of reference for the Unity to determine relativistic effects/


The outside observer.  The extent of relativistic effects depends on whose observing; if I'm on the Unity and you're on Earth, I see you having time dilation just like you see me having time dilation.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: vonbach on August 08, 2015, 06:51:55 PM
Quote
“Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation, and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than they thought.”

I love this line its so true. One book I remember called Sargon the magnificent.
The best part was the end. A female Scientist went through the beginning of Genesis.
She went through and translated it all from poetry to scientific terms.
It actually matches up pretty closely. It just has to be interpreted properly.
"Days" means "ages" for example.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 08, 2015, 07:00:46 PM
Do google Bertram Russell and 'God of the Gaps'.  I'm sure you won't care for Dr. Russell and his world-view, but he has a point, and one a fellow ought to be familiar with in these discussions.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: vonbach on August 08, 2015, 11:57:43 PM
Ugh just what I need more nonsense from the Atheist crowd.
I know about atheists I used to be one.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 09, 2015, 12:15:34 AM
Is that looking it up talking, already familiar with Bertram Russell, or a good guess?
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Yitzi on August 09, 2015, 03:34:22 AM
Quote
“Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation, and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than they thought.”

I love this line its so true. One book I remember called Sargon the magnificent.
The best part was the end. A female Scientist went through the beginning of Genesis.
She went through and translated it all from poetry to scientific terms.
It actually matches up pretty closely. It just has to be interpreted properly.
"Days" means "ages" for example.

The tricky part, of course, is finding a definition of "ages" that fits and isn't ad hoc.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: vonbach on August 09, 2015, 12:40:49 PM
Not really just get yourself a good concordance. I've known pastors that have translated the bible form the original greek and hebrew
word for word. Oh by the block hebrew isn't real hebrew.
Title: Re: Is the Big Bang in the Bible?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 09, 2015, 02:24:16 PM
Oh; this ought to be entertaining... ;popcorn
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