Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Kirov on January 08, 2014, 07:25:05 PM

Title: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on January 08, 2014, 07:25:05 PM

I hope it's fine to write such off-topic here. Today a friend of mine, a fellow translator, raised an interesting issue about the word "mileage". He says it's not just a generic word for "odometer reading", but is specific to the imperial system, i.e. miles. In other words, you can only use "mileage" for readings given in miles. Is that really true, English native speakers? Would it sound weird to your ears to give mileage in kilometers, as God clearly intended? ;) If so, how does the word "kilometrage" sound to you? I can't find it in any serious dictionaries, I'm afraid, but some translators propose just that. Barring both solutions, what would you recommend to use for 'distance traveled in kilometers', knowing that you can't always say "odometer reading"? Some forms require just distance traveled within a certain period of time, not the actual reading from the odometer.

Please help and I hope it's OK to put such a topic here, sometimes I could use a hand from native speakers and would rather ask you guys than register to some translation forums. :)

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: gwillybj on January 08, 2014, 09:45:09 PM

The word 'mileage' is so common and its meaning so simple, go ahead and use it as a generic even when dealing with kilometers. The word 'distance' is safer if you need to satisfy nit-pickers.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on January 08, 2014, 10:24:21 PM

The context matters, of course; I'd say the far most common use of "mileage" means "usage-wear on a vehicle".  As gwilly says, "distance" covers most of the rest.

It would be easier to advise on specific sentences/phrases...

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Valka on January 08, 2014, 11:03:39 PM

Canada's been metric since the early '70s, but I've never heard anyone use the word "kilometrage". It sounds strange.

Most of us are "bilingual" to some extent between metric and imperial measurements, and tend to use whatever system is most convenient (or required for work purposes).

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Unorthodox on January 08, 2014, 11:19:18 PM

Just to throw a wrench into the discussion, "Mileage" can also be used to describe relative value, and not distance at all, as in the terms "your mileage may vary" (your experience may be different), or "getting a lot of mileage" (gaining more than expected). 

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on January 09, 2014, 12:02:28 AM

Or fuel efficiency, for that matter.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Valka on January 09, 2014, 12:12:43 AM

Around here it tends to mean "how many miles to the gallon do you get?" Of course all our gas is measured in litres, but it's understood.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Rusty Edge on January 09, 2014, 04:26:55 AM

Quote from: BUncle on January 08, 2014, 10:24:21 PM

The context matters, of course; I'd say the far most common use of "mileage" means "usage-wear on a vehicle". 

I always think of Indiana Jones in the original movie, describing the condition of his body after highjacking a truck from the Nazis with  a white horse- "It's not the years, it's the mileage"

I don't think the term is even limited to vehicles any more in the usage and wear sense. It's perfectly applicable to shoes, for example, and understandable with regard to carpets. People even say things like "He's gotten a lot of mileage out of that joke," meaning use.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on January 09, 2014, 02:45:36 PM

I wasn't aware I can get so much feedback. Thank you, guys!  ;b; I'm going to pick your brains more often in that case; every now and then I run into an issue where dictionaries are useless and the 'feel' of a native speaker would work best. :)

So I guess 'mileage' stays, even for European vehicles.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 06, 2016, 07:06:53 PM

Can someone help me a little bit more? I have a big PL-EN project (along with numerous other minor issues and questions) and I thought I could use you, guys.

For starters:

1) "The above mentioned amounts shall become immediately due, increased by interest [which is sth]". This is not from this project I mentioned, but it bugs me. Do you feel that the syntax here is ok? I say yes but a fellow translator says that something's off around that coma. This is a paraphrasing of the sentence "The above mentioned amounts, increased by interest, shall become immediately due", but I had a reason to keep it the way above. Is it fine to your ears?

2) Imagine that you have an association of people who really, really love the local area they live in and want to share their passion, do some sightseeing together, etc. How would you call such people? Specifically, I'm looking for a synonym to 'enthusiast, aficionado, fan' which would fit the above description. Nothing to do with sports, though. Just, you know, an association of New Yorkers who are really into New York. How would they call themselves and/or their association?

Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 06, 2016, 07:16:24 PM

[which is sth]?

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 06, 2016, 07:21:59 PM

1.) Is dry and the grammar is unnecessarily complex, but it scans as proper business-speak; those people are terrible with their own language written down, and business schooling actually teaches them bad grammatical practice.

2.) Boosters if promoting and luring business to New York is a major part of their activities.  Every town and community has some, or the place is dying.  -Otherwise, 'enthusiast, aficionado, fan' are all good fits.  "New York-lovers" would be good if not so easily miss-taken...  -Boosters might still work even if there's no promoting/business angle...

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Valka on July 06, 2016, 07:33:13 PM

Quote from: BUncle on July 06, 2016, 07:21:59 PM

1.) Is dry and the grammar is unnecessarily complex, but it scans as proper business-speak; those people are terrible with their own language written down, and business schooling actually teaches them bad grammatical practice.

2.) Boosters if promoting and luring business to New York is a major part of their activities.  Every town and community has some, or the place is dying.  -Otherwise, 'enthusiast, aficionado, fan' are all good fits.  "New York-lovers" would be good if not so easily miss-taken...  -Boosters might still work even if there's no promoting/business angle...

1. "The above mentioned amounts shall become immediately due, increased by interest [which is sth]".

I assume "sth" is the percentage? Or is it the amount of the interest charged?

If so, this is how I would change it:

"The above-mentioned amounts, to which interest (sth) will be added, shall become immediately due."

I assume you've mentioned a date in the previous sentence, or will mention a date in the following sentence.


2. If you use "New York-lovers," make sure you do NOT forget the hyphen! Otherwise it becomes something with sexual connotations.

"New York aficionados" works fine. So does "New York fans" although that could be mistaken as being fans of a New York sports team.

Be aware that "boost" has a slang meaning, which is "to steal."

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 06, 2016, 07:38:29 PM

Yep, dry as dust it's supposed to be, otherwise you get complaints from the suits. Business-speak and legalese are atrocities in themselves, ranging from WTF to just bad grammar. In legalese, you can (nay, you must) write 'such agreement' instead of 'such an agreement' for reasons I have never really figured out. History, I guess? This entire jargon harks back to the 16 c.

[which is sth] - I just wanted to indicate that 'interest' is followed by something that doesn't really matter for this case.

Thanks with the boosters, too!  ;b;

I may have more in the near future, this project is a big deal for me and I really want to make it sound smooth. Pretty much opposite of legalese, which I usually deal with.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 06, 2016, 07:42:20 PM

Gotcha.  This is sort of my idea of a good time, free-associating but not having to make the actual decision, and we're a community of people who help each other, so no need to be shy at all...

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 06, 2016, 07:45:45 PM

Oh, so you guys are helpful and charge no money? Hm, this sounds like a plan...  ;morganercise

Anyhow, thanks to both of you. ;)

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Valka on July 06, 2016, 07:56:36 PM

You're welcome. :)

BUncle, speaking of help, have you voted in the current Iron Pen competition? The poll closes tomorrow.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 06, 2016, 08:03:26 PM

I have not; I'll get on that.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 14, 2016, 12:33:41 PM

And now some PC terminology I need help with:

First of all, could you comment on the differences between various gender grammatical forms? As I understand it, it used to be:

1) When you see a blind person, you should help him or her.

I.e. 'he/she. And nowadays, it tends to be:

2) When you see a blind person, you should help them.

I.e. plural is used to describe singular. It is my impression that option (2) is more PC, 'progressive' and slowly but steadily replaces (1). Can you confirm that or elaborate if this is more complicated?

What are the PC terms for 'blind' and 'deaf'? I know about 'visually/hearing impaired' but I believe these terms are much wider than the former ones, i.e. 'visually impaired' includes both the blind and severe myopia, etc. Yes/no? I'm looking for the terms specifically referring to the blind or deaf people, if there are any more PC than these.

Do you still say 'intellectually challenged'? Right now I think it's passe and sounds like something an older brother could tell you. Is there any other PC term for 'intellectual disability'?

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 14, 2016, 02:20:46 PM

Those things are, and always have been, a mess.  In my view, every option you mention for all of those is acceptable and in general I'd tend to go for whichever is shortest and least cumbersome/awkward as better writing style - however, it's highly contextual according to the subject(s) under discussion, the general tone of what's being translated and who's the audience.  People disagree wildly about this stuff.

I'll probably have more when I'm more alert later, and Valka's input on this one ought to be had, I think.  Draz is a good PC perspective if you can get him in here.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Unorthodox on July 14, 2016, 02:38:22 PM

Quote from: Kirov on July 14, 2016, 12:33:41 PM

And now some PC terminology I need help with:

First of all, could you comment on the differences between various gender grammatical forms? As I understand it, it used to be:

1) When you see a blind person, you should help him or her.

I.e. 'he/she. And nowadays, it tends to be:

2) When you see a blind person, you should help them.

I.e. plural is used to describe singular. It is my impression that option (2) is more PC, 'progressive' and slowly but steadily replaces (1). Can you confirm that or elaborate if this is more complicated?

https://illinois.edu/blog/view/25/31097

It is mostly just a lazy way of not having to write "his or her".  It's a gap in the English language that goes back to the 1850s.  They/Them/Their is generally accepted but not technically correct.  You should assume "His" if gender is unknown (though certain exceptions), or "His or Her" to be most accurate if pedantic. 

Quote

What are the PC terms for 'blind' and 'deaf'? I know about 'visually/hearing impaired' but I believe these terms are much wider than the former ones, i.e. 'visually impaired' includes both the blind and severe myopia, etc. Yes/no? I'm looking for the terms specifically referring to the blind or deaf people, if there are any more PC than these.

Blind and Deaf are perfectly acceptable provided you're not using them as a derogatory.  ie talking about someone who is figuratively blind. 

Quote

Do you still say 'intellectually challenged'? Right now I think it's passe and sounds like something an older brother could tell you. Is there any other PC term for 'intellectual disability'?

"Mentally Challenged" seems to have replaced "Intellectually" from what I've seen.  However, preferred would seem to be "Name of condition".  "Autistic Spectrum" "Downs" or some such. 

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 14, 2016, 02:55:08 PM

Thanks for the link, I'll read it later. As far as I see, the plural seems to be used in hyper-PC environment, which is the thing I'm going for here - I'm translating a manual called Anti-Discrimination Activities in Polish Law Enforcement for the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights at the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe, so you can imagine this is supposed to be as PC and progressive as they come.

Most of the time, I can navigate with the plural, but sometimes I'm confused as to sentences like:

"Every person, regardless of their sex, have their own traits and skills (...)"

Is it fine? Because it looks soo not fine to a non-native speaker. :)

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 14, 2016, 03:53:20 PM

It looks terrible to a native too, but that is how one does it - English just doesn't that gender-neutral singular pronoun and we have to make do ignoring that 'they' and 'their' are plural.  Avoiding pronouns and just being repetitive using the noun is often a superior, if still awkward, style approach, but not always feasible, either.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Unorthodox on July 14, 2016, 04:24:09 PM

"Has his or her own traits" would also be acceptable, but gets really annoying when you have multiple sentences formatted that way.   

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 14, 2016, 05:16:03 PM

BTW, in the example "Every person, regardless of their sex, have their own traits and skills (...)", you can just drop the first 'their' and change 'sex' to 'gender' and you're set.  Still good English style w/o the pronoun.  -Possibly in place of "Every person", "Each person" or just "People" or "Everyone", altering "have" to "has" if so.  -I think "have" is wrong, in fact - subject-verb agreement.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Valka on July 14, 2016, 05:18:31 PM

Quote from: Kirov on July 14, 2016, 12:33:41 PM

And now some PC terminology I need help with:

First of all, could you comment on the differences between various gender grammatical forms? As I understand it, it used to be:

1) When you see a blind person, you should help him or her.

I.e. 'he/she. And nowadays, it tends to be:

2) When you see a blind person, you should help them.

I.e. plural is used to describe singular. It is my impression that option (2) is more PC, 'progressive' and slowly but steadily replaces (1). Can you confirm that or elaborate if this is more complicated?

What are the PC terms for 'blind' and 'deaf'? I know about 'visually/hearing impaired' but I believe these terms are much wider than the former ones, i.e. 'visually impaired' includes both the blind and severe myopia, etc. Yes/no? I'm looking for the terms specifically referring to the blind or deaf people, if there are any more PC than these.

Do you still say 'intellectually challenged'? Right now I think it's passe and sounds like something an older brother could tell you. Is there any other PC term for 'intellectual disability'?

This is a failing of the English language that didn't used to be considered a failing because of sexism (or so I perceive it). The default used to be masculine pronouns, but that's not considered acceptable anymore, at least in some contexts. "Him or her" and "he or she" are awkward, so some people get around that by using the word "them." But that's also awkward because things can get confusing if you're only talking about one person.

Personally I use "him/her" or "(s)he" to refer to only one person. I think in this specific instance, you could use "them" as it should be obvious that you're speaking in a general sense and not about one specific blind person.

"Blind" and "deaf" are acceptable terms, but keep in mind that some people may not be totally blind but still need help (and the same for deaf people).

"Intellectually challenged" is not acceptable. The immediate connotation is that referring to someone as "intellectually challenge" is just another way of saying the person is stupid.

"Mentally challenged" is marginally better, but as stated upthread, it would be better to specify if you're talking about cognitively-impaired people (ie. someone who has suffered a brain injury), someone with autism, Down Syndrome, etc.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: DrazharLn on July 14, 2016, 06:16:15 PM

With agender people, etc, there's arguably a need for a proper non-gendered pronoun, but all the ones I've tried are a bit awkward. You can get used to them pretty quickly, though (one of A Reynolds' recent books has a person of indeterminate gender referred to as Xe).

In some contexts, it is more appropriate to use She as the pronoun for a person of unknown gender. This is common in much contemporary scientific literature but will likely annoy some social conservatives.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 14, 2016, 06:33:17 PM

Quote from: DrazharLn on July 14, 2016, 06:16:15 PM

In some contexts, it is more appropriate to use She as the pronoun for a person of unknown gender. This is common in much contemporary scientific literature but will likely annoy some social conservatives.

Oh, I forgot about the 'she-only' option. Is it getting any traction? I love to piss off social conservatives, they are so cute when their faces become so red and bulging, you half want to put a needle to them. ;)

Anyhow, thank you very much, everyone!  ;b;

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 14, 2016, 06:35:22 PM

A word in general on PC that may not be of much bearing, but background: Draz, for example, tells me not to refer to him as "the English kid" and it would be rude of me not to do that courtesy, and so it's "the British kid".  That's it in a nutshell, and the social conservatives have trouble seeing past whatever the PC term is being almost invariably an awkward jaw-breaker to it being a courtesy issue that decent folk ought to observe.

In fact, I'll usually say "black" instead of "African-American" more because the former is one syllable and less letters than because the latter is just god-awful and lame, for all that I acknowledge the thinking behind it and agree - BUT which of them I choose to use is highly dependent on the context, and one should always go to the extra trouble in delicate conversations and according to who's listening, etc.  It's just polite to call people what they want to be called, whether you like it or not.

It's just polite, and manners are underrated in our degenerate, falling, western civilization, all the rudeness everywhere being one of the tells.  I try to be polite, at least civil, depending on the situation.  -For one thing, the British Kid might jump my poop when I'm not...

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 14, 2016, 07:02:46 PM

-Note, BTW, that I'm a good source on English writing style tips -if not actual rules because I slept through those classes and am not good at explaining the rules, having a good grasp but being weak on the vocabulary- but my perspective on current events and/or politics is not to be taken as typically American, because I'm not typically ANYthing...

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 14, 2016, 07:50:05 PM

Yep, but it keeps changing so assistance of a native speaker really comes in handy. As I found out, the term 'islamophobia' is disliked by some Muslim communities (as they claim, and rightly so, that it is less related with the religion and more with their skin colour, at least in Europe). And apparently, it's no longer a 'sex change surgery' but 'sex reassignment' or 'correction'). I honestly didn't know that.

Well, thanks and I feel that I'll come back with more issues soon enough.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Lord Avalon on July 14, 2016, 08:56:32 PM

To me the usage of 3rd person plural "they" instead of singular "he/she" is kind of retro, harkening back to the Germanic roots of English, because in German, 3rd person plural is the form of formal address (although in German, this would be taking the place of 2nd person).

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 14, 2016, 09:02:18 PM

Another style tip: a post I made 27 May in CMN Academy addressed to the CMNs has currently been read by 1.) me, the author, and 2.) Draz, the British Kid, and not even an MPlayer.  Yes; in one month, two weeks and three days, it has been read by a total of zero of the people intended, all of whom but Misotu have been by AC2 in the last three days.  -I do not regard that as good practice at all.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 14, 2016, 09:54:40 PM

:D I'm quite sure that counts as online harassment and American imperialism. Well, well...

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 14, 2016, 11:21:58 PM

You know?  Come to think of it, we ain't had one single 'Merican CMN at AC2, and Darsnan thinks this place has cooties and vyeh --- hasn't been active anywhere in years, and that's it I can think of for non-godless CMNs.  We need to take steps to colonize CMNing with some real people...

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Kirov on July 15, 2016, 10:55:17 AM

 Of course! That is exactly what Donald T rump would say! Make America great again!  :unworthy:  [Sleezebag]*

* the pig emoticon no longer works.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 15, 2016, 01:35:05 PM

Pigging me didn't work, man; the two examples I could think of of 'Mercan CMNs was self-defeating enough.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: ColdWizard on July 15, 2016, 05:20:38 PM

Quote from: Lord Avalon on July 14, 2016, 08:56:32 PM

To me the usage of 3rd person plural "they" instead of singular "he/she" is kind of retro, harkening back to the Germanic roots of English, because in German, 3rd person plural is the form of formal address (although in German, this would be taking the place of 2nd person).

They/Their was the standard I was taught. He/She and (S)he and what not being clunky and alternating between he and she being possibly confusing to the reader.

Title: Re: OT: little help with translation needed
Post by: Lord Avalon on July 15, 2016, 09:20:06 PM

I learned basic English grammar in the 70s, before political correctness really became a thing, and there was no such standard yet.