Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Kirov on December 25, 2013, 01:16:17 PM

Title: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Kirov on December 25, 2013, 01:16:17 PM

The topic about the rules at Command Nexus is not really conclusive about it. Let's say I probe a human player for tech and I get his screen "Vendetta upon you!". Do I just choose Vendetta and play on or do I have to pause and ask the player how we reacts? (he can "overlook this offence", after all). And given I choose Vendetta, do I have to be honest about it or can I lie that somebody framed me or AI dragged me into Vendetta, as often really happens? What do you think, guys?

Disclaimer: the above question should be construed as purely hypothetical. I would never provide untrue, incomplete or misleading information in an MP game, actual rules notwithstanding. It's just a friend of mine wants to know.

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Geo on December 25, 2013, 08:14:13 PM

Quote from: Kirov on December 25, 2013, 01:16:17 PM

The topic about the rules at Command Nexus is not really conclusive about it. Let's say I probe a human player for tech and I get his screen "Vendetta upon you!". Do I just choose Vendetta and play on or do I have to pause and ask the player how we reacts? (he can "overlook this offence", after all). And given I choose Vendetta, do I have to be honest about it or can I lie that somebody framed me or AI dragged me into Vendetta, as often really happens? What do you think, guys?

Disclaimer: the above question should be construed as purely hypothetical. I would never provide untrue, incomplete or misleading information in an MP game, actual rules notwithstanding. It's just a friend of mine wants to know.

AFAIK, it's standard rule to click "Vendetta upon you!" when you infiltrate. Afterwards, after submitting the turn, you can explain to the 'victim' in a private message and let him/her decide either to offer truce, peace, or continue vendetta when the turns passes by. Being framed is a bit trickier since the framer most likely has no qualms at all to click the Vendetta message since its the framed faction getting into trouble anyway. ;)

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Yitzi on December 25, 2013, 11:15:46 PM

Personally, I'd say that you don't have to explain why you start a vendetta (though he's free to ask), as I feel all diplomacy-related stuff should have as few rules as possible.  (The only one I'd insist on is "what happens in a game, stays in that game", as someone might like to play a backstabber as one faction and be perfectly decent on the forums, or even in another game as a different faction.)

However, in the particular case of whether to overlook an offense, I'd say that unless it can be undone the following turn with literally no consequence, you can't make anyone else's decisions for them.

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Kataphraktoi on December 26, 2013, 12:02:49 AM

Feeling guilty about something - ?

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Kirov on December 26, 2013, 03:29:33 PM

Quote from: Geo on December 25, 2013, 08:14:13 PM

AFAIK, it's standard rule to click "Vendetta upon you!" when you infiltrate. Afterwards, after submitting the turn, you can explain to the 'victim' in a private message and let him/her decide either to offer truce, peace, or continue vendetta when the turns passes by. Being framed is a bit trickier since the framer most likely has no qualms at all to click the Vendetta message since its the framed faction getting into trouble anyway. ;)

Yes, but what if I don't want to admit what happened? What if I want to pretend I was framed or whatever? I agree with Yitzi - personally, I would limit any obligatoriness in diplomacy. However, the counterpoint is that in the case of probe attack, there is a window designated for the victim - it's just the game design is clumsy and the window appears in the prober's turn.

If the AI dragged me into war, I feel it would be okay to, say, pretend I was framed by a human party. ;)

As for actual framing - I believe the Vendetta is automatic and there is no choice. But it needs testing, I don't think I've ever framed anyone when probing a human - it's really a tricky deal.

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Kirov on December 26, 2013, 03:35:57 PM

Quote from: Kataphraktoi on December 26, 2013, 12:02:49 AM

Feeling guilty about something - ?

You didn't read the disclaimer. You are so sued! :)

But yeah, actually I think I can say it. When you were elected the Gov'nor, I wanted to start the Vendetta just to deny you that extra 20 cash/turn. So I figured I could pay one of the other players to ask me to "attack my enemy" (you can select even the players you don't have the Vendetta with). But first I decided to run a test to make sure the asker won't get into trouble as well - and I noticed that he would, see the description of this bug:

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=6277.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=6277.0)

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Yitzi on December 26, 2013, 03:44:54 PM

Quote from: Kirov on December 26, 2013, 03:29:33 PM

Yes, but what if I don't want to admit what happened? What if I want to pretend I was framed or whatever?

For that reason, I think good practice in MP games is to preface all nonverifiable claims about the game state with "I claim that", so that you can do such pretending without actually lying.

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Vishniac on December 27, 2013, 12:15:34 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on December 25, 2013, 11:15:46 PM

(The only one I'd insist on is "what happens in a game, stays in that game", as someone might like to play a backstabber as one faction and be perfectly decent on the forums, or even in another game as a different faction.)

Good luck with backstabbing someone in a game and hoping him to trust you in another...  ::)

To quote Vel's Guide:

Quote

5) Diplomacy is about human interaction. If you’ve got a reputation as a backstabber, like it or not, memories last longer than a single game, and you may find yourself stacking the deck against you in later games by running roughshod over allies in the game you’re currently involved in.

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Yitzi on December 27, 2013, 01:01:22 PM

Quote from: Vishniac on December 27, 2013, 12:15:34 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on December 25, 2013, 11:15:46 PM

(The only one I'd insist on is "what happens in a game, stays in that game", as someone might like to play a backstabber as one faction and be perfectly decent on the forums, or even in another game as a different faction.)

Good luck with backstabbing someone in a game and hoping him to trust you in another...  ::)

To quote Vel's Guide:

Quote

5) Diplomacy is about human interaction. If you’ve got a reputation as a backstabber, like it or not, memories last longer than a single game, and you may find yourself stacking the deck against you in later games by running roughshod over allies in the game you’re currently involved in.

You're right, backstabbing is probably too much.  But for something like extortion, at least (where trust is not an issue), it should be an option, as some factions just don't work as well without the option of extortion.

Title: Re: Multiplayer - do you need to explain why you started a Vendetta?
Post by: Kirov on December 27, 2013, 02:30:32 PM

Diplomacy in MP is not roleplayed in the traditional sense of "I claim that". If you pretend something, you basically lie. So this friend of mine (you really wouldn't know him) wanted to know if he can lie as to the real, technical cause of Vendetta. I am in favour of such a solution and from the above I deduce that nobody has a strong opinion otherwise.

Meanwhile, I used the editor to discover an interesting feature - it turns out that if you don't have any kind of relations with another human player, only the informal truce (i.e. the space next to his name at F12 is empty), then you can probe him without any diplomatic penalty. It counts as an "attack" only if you have at least a truce.