1. The first change, is to enable formers equipment with no tech requirement. It is possible, that such expedition colonizing a new planet would have technology of manufacturing basic and simple terraforming equipment available. For example, road building can be available from the very start. Farms cultivation can be enabled by Centauri Ecology. Actions: mining, solar collectors building, leveling terrain, setting up sensor arrays, can be available too, as technologies brought from Earth. They can be considered as simple tasks too, and one can think that some materials for these improvements are either from colony pods or their substitutes can be found. Forests? Either no tech or Centauri Ecology, if we think, that trees from Earth would not grow that easily, although in blurbs such thing is suggested. Removing fungus, similar thing. It appears, that it is an easy task, maybe only time consuming.
2. Changed 'Recycling Tanks' as 'SPEW & Basic Power Grid' can be available from the very start (no tech requirement). When establishing a new colony, one would need recycling of basic necessities, let's say: water, that would not be containing any unknown planetary substances and not require distilation for purification, maybe oxygen, elements and organic matter for food production in simple hydroponics. SPEW stands for sewage processing and environmental waste. Basic power grid, just that - power cables/lines in the base, so it is available in every part of the base when needed. This building in game mechanics would have other role: anti-ICS. Also, its building would need few turns, that would increase strategic options for the player.
3. Changed 'Hab complex' as 'Life support' and available with no prerequisite. This would be also anti-ICS tool. With the first pop limit set to 1, and cost of 10 this would increase player's options. A base without Life support could be only size 1, could not build colony pods, one would call it: "a station"? And it would be cheap in maintenance: less 10 EC/turn of cost. Inhabitants would use their private or simple/small size life supports. Such high upkeep would be game-mechanics, not representing possible "real" costs. The idea of Life support, same as SPEW, is here to flavour this part of the game, when stations/bases are established. Well, maybe basic power generation can be added here too: "Life support & power generation"
4. The third facility available from the very start: 'Science Lab' (originally Biology Lab). Let's say, Unity expedition would be scientific in very large part. Every colony pod would be equiped with some scientific tools, imagine, what now we can put into Mars rovers. So that is another option for the player, to setup such lab in a base. Game mechanics would be here to speed up research in early turns, since I consider slowing research rate down considerably because of late game ease of technology acquiring. In late game techs come a bit too quickly making this game part less interesting.
5. Speeder chassis. I think it may be available from the start, not for the sake of ability to build heavy tanks, but some wheeled vehicles, that are fast. Colonists would probably have in colony pods enough tools and materials to be able to make them, after all, they would not need to reinvent the wheel. Doctrine Mobility would enable other stuff (maybe one can redesign this tech). Anyway, Spartans are good example, that it is already in the game, just the range of application would be extended to all factions.
6. And foil chassis, similarly as speeder. If Spartans explain speeders, Pirates can explain foil chassis available to everyone. However, some capabilities might be kept enabled by a tech (Flexibility or more advanced), e.g. in terraforming tidal harness and mining platform even more advanced. Transport equipment and heavy transport too, also in some tech (Flexibility?). Early foils (that could transport units) could be only from predefined units. Reasoning: Very early foil chassis would give more strategic options, but too many capabilities would overpower it.
7. Doctrine Flexibility - tech set as having no requirements. That is in regard to what is said in (6.). And this would be 9th tech available to research from the very start.
8. Colony pods - disabled from the very start and made very expensive. There is some game mechanics in it. High cost is intended for anti-ICS effect. AI would need to focus on these few early bases development first instead of building expensive colony pods in underdeveloped bases, same as human players. Bases are intended to be expensive in relation to their size, when small. Anti-ICS would encourage growing bases to larger sizes with many workers. Reasoning: considered what such colony pods (made on Earth) were said to carry from Earth, one can think that their replication would not be an easy task. Thus both high cost and maybe a tech. I'm testing Mobility, but making a new tech here might be interesting, also available from the very start. Other option: Industrial Base, I was trying it before, but this tech is already "occupied" by many other items. Level 2 technology may be acceptable, if, let's say, a faction starts with 4 colony pods. That's something to test.
9. Sea colony pods enabled like in Doctrine: Initiative. Possible, that Pirates would be in large disadvantage (AI), but it all depends on redesign of tech tree. A remark: it is possible to make different techs for land and sea colony pods by predefined units. Colony pod as equipment would be further in the tech tree. Reasoning: ocean exploration was never an easy task. Even now it is said, that Mars surface is much better explored than Earth's ocean floor. In general, e.g. open pit mine is so much easier to build than a mining platform. Same a base or station, on land easier than on ocean shelf for example.
Yeah, I have not heard of UMOD either. Good to see something is still going on though. :)
For starters, what is UMOD?
Just my :2c:, and I'll most likely include it in my Tau Ceti project as well.
IMO, anything vehicular based or in need of manufacturing should be linked to a technology. While it is true that interstellar colonists would bring with them certain equipment, that doesn't mean they can build new stuff from the start. They need to set up the necessary infrastructure to construct these items at large(r) scale(s), and the easiest way is to think of technologies as setting up said basic infrastructure. Farms and mines could be thought of as basic actions, but solar panels aren't that simple to rig. Now if you replaced those with a sort of windmill instead, you might be in business. ;)
There's no telling if alien microbes would be as sufficient in 'recycling' Terrestrial stuff as we see organic matter decaying all around us here on Earth. So a basic tech to represent the tests&cultivation of either terrestrial or alien microbes should be considered.
Interesting idea. The only drawback I can see here are 'local' aliens, like the Progenitors. These are not supposed to need life support equipment like humans do on Chiron.
Or would you simply put POPULATION, 6, for all human factions? And what about SP's like the Planetary Transit System or Ascetic Virtues? These would circumvent this basic setup for new bases.
However 'Ascetic' one might be, without sufficient oxygen one simply doesn't survive. :P
I'm torn between your proposal and place the 'biolab' it under the "[insert star name] Ecology" tech. Perhaps put the Weather Paradigm on its former tech (Centauri Meditation)?
Usually there's plenty of opportunity to catch free rovers by popping the pods. The landing pods were used to ferry people down. Cargo was put in more basic 'drop pods'. And the energy often acquired by popping pods actually represents the same thing: tools/equipment to hurry the current manufacturing (production).
And the Pirates so to speak 'raided' the aquatic equipment on the Unity, hence there possession of Doc: Flexibility -and Mobility.
But 6) and 7) are a bit too interwoven to offer a quick response.
Whole-heartedly agreed. ;)
Besides, you could even replace escape pods with normal colony pods in the alphax #units list, and make sure there's Unity foil(s) with sufficient cargo capacity to carry all the equipment. This would give an aquatic player either none or one seabase to start with, and either one or two normal colony pods. This would give such an aquatic faction the ability to compete better with land-based factions since it has a choice: either stay land-based due to small seas, or colonize the oceans once the ability is researched.
Just some of my own random thoughts here, might not be helpful or relevant to this mods goalYes, mines can be very complex, but there can be simple ones too. As posted in previous post, we would start from open pit ones, simple as they can be.
It seems to me that things like mines are not simple holes in the ground but relatively advanced complexes capable of digging deep and hauling up much more than mines here on earth today;not one operation for gold or another for iron, but everything, all the features, all in one place in a tough environment. After 50-100 years of operation those mines are still putting out 4 minerals every year with no repair or touch ups needed, that suggests to me they are miniature colonies in their own right with recycling facilities etc
Is there any way to speed up greatly the initial tech rates then slow it down around the tier 2-3 techs? (industrial automation shouldnt be as easy to research as applied physics) Unfortunately it seems techs cant be assigned their own difficulty values with the way the game is coded.Indirectly there is a way: by slowing overall research rate and speeding up early tech adancement to compensate. Changes to research facilities placement on tech tree, also other ways of giving research points. This is without exe modification.
...In version 0.2 already tried increased move points. Effects are very interesting, though one needs to compensate for infantry versus base combat bonus. And additional effects are from easy road building, which in vanila is slow, I think. 3-4 turns building a road, with 1 turn additionally for entering the tile - that's too slow.
About close base spacing in general. Right now the game encourages fairly tight bace placing, on average mine are getting placed with 3 tiles of separation, or less. With condensors you only need so many tiles per base to get up to max capacity. One problem is the colony pod speed is glacial;spending 10 turns to walk to a nice spot just makes no sense;you can use formers to make roads out but the former has to spend a turn moving and the roads are not quick to make. I would like to see more sprawling empires and actually see colonization of far lands being possible and profitable. To make this more possible the beneficial alternatives should be either weakened or pushed up the tech tree;at some point it just makes sense to focus on vertical development, investing resources into advanced terraforming and infrastructure developments.
As nice as the 3d map is, its all rather bland and similar;using formers you can make about any land as equally productive as any other land so theres no incentive to move out. In civ4 it takes it to the other end of the spectrum and every inch of the map is quickly occupied. As a sometimes CMN and map designer i like to put landmark tiles and extra bonus resources and anything else cab ne seen as appealing for base settlement but there is still only so far people will travel to settle and only limited options on what kind of goodies to place. Tiles like gold will get alot of attention in civ4 but here all energy\bonus tiles are the same and not particularly appealing.Exponential energy growth, I agree, I think it is a problem to deal with. So far I tried something similar to research solution. And one can do some energy income leveling, but that is difficult task. Humans can deal with it better, since they can calculate when to build energy multiplying facilities, when they get high cost. This is one of the ways: decrease energy multiplication by assigning high cost to facilities that do it. What can also help is making energy consumption in bases high. The problem is with AI, who can not deal with it well. We have no tools like in civ4, that you can do in python.
The way colony pods move could be looked at, a bump-up in speed could help here. Just increasing the speed of units in general might be good;as it is armies you dispatch will often end up being obsoleted by rapid tech advances later in the game so warfare tends to rely on magtubes, orbital drops, and unit upgrades in the field to keep up. Someone said that smac is a game of exponential growth and the destructive force available rapidly accelerates towards the middle\end game, probably too much so imo. But how to address late game tech speed without seriously nerfing alot of stuff? When your throwing fusion labs into size14 bases with all the advanced terraforming, research capacity is going to be increasing far faster than tech costs. Boreholes, Condensers and Echelon Mirrors could be kicked all the way up to advanced ecological engineering maybe, but thats quite a large change. Heck on a waterworld map you dont need any of those things to have good tech rates;Tidal Harness with FM+thermoclines are putting out 4 energy per turn from a simple and basic terraforming operation. So tech speed just goes up and up
1. The first change, is to enable formers equipment with no tech requirement. It is possible, that such expedition colonizing a new planet would have technology of manufacturing basic and simple terraforming equipment available. For example, road building can be available from the very start. Farms cultivation can be enabled by Centauri Ecology. Actions: mining, solar collectors building, leveling terrain, setting up sensor arrays, can be available too, as technologies brought from Earth. They can be considered as simple tasks too, and one can think that some materials for these improvements are either from colony pods or their substitutes can be found. Forests? Either no tech or Centauri Ecology, if we think, that trees from Earth would not grow that easily, although in blurbs such thing is suggested. Removing fungus, similar thing. It appears, that it is an easy task, maybe only time consuming.
2. Changed 'Recycling Tanks' as 'SPEW & Basic Power Grid' can be available from the very start (no tech requirement). When establishing a new colony, one would need recycling of basic necessities, let's say: water, that would not be containing any unknown planetary substances and not require distilation for purification, maybe oxygen, elements and organic matter for food production in simple hydroponics. SPEW stands for sewage processing and environmental waste. Basic power grid, just that - power cables/lines in the base, so it is available in every part of the base when needed. This building in game mechanics would have other role: anti-ICS. Also, its building would need few turns, that would increase strategic options for the player.
3. Changed 'Hab complex' as 'Life support' and available with no prerequisite. This would be also anti-ICS tool. With the first pop limit set to 1, and cost of 10 this would increase player's options. A base without Life support could be only size 1, could not build colony pods, one would call it: "a station"? And it would be cheap in maintenance: less 10 EC/turn of cost. Inhabitants would use their private or simple/small size life supports. Such high upkeep would be game-mechanics, not representing possible "real" costs. The idea of Life support, same as SPEW, is here to flavour this part of the game, when stations/bases are established. Well, maybe basic power generation can be added here too: "Life support & power generation"
4. The third facility available from the very start: 'Science Lab' (originally Biology Lab). Let's say, Unity expedition would be scientific in very large part. Every colony pod would be equiped with some scientific tools, imagine, what now we can put into Mars rovers. So that is another option for the player, to setup such lab in a base. Game mechanics would be here to speed up research in early turns, since I consider slowing research rate down considerably because of late game ease of technology acquiring. In late game techs come a bit too quickly making this game part less interesting.
5. Speeder chassis. I think it may be available from the start, not for the sake of ability to build heavy tanks, but some wheeled vehicles, that are fast. Colonists would probably have in colony pods enough tools and materials to be able to make them, after all, they would not need to reinvent the wheel. Doctrine Mobility would enable other stuff (maybe one can redesign this tech). Anyway, Spartans are good example, that it is already in the game, just the range of application would be extended to all factions.
6. And foil chassis, similarly as speeder. If Spartans explain speeders, Pirates can explain foil chassis available to everyone. However, some capabilities might be kept enabled by a tech (Flexibility or more advanced), e.g. in terraforming tidal harness and mining platform even more advanced. Transport equipment and heavy transport too, also in some tech (Flexibility?). Early foils (that could transport units) could be only from predefined units. Reasoning: Very early foil chassis would give more strategic options, but too many capabilities would overpower it.
7. Doctrine Flexibility - tech set as having no requirements. That is in regard to what is said in (6.). And this would be 9th tech available to research from the very start.
8. Colony pods - disabled from the very start and made very expensive. There is some game mechanics in it. High cost is intended for anti-ICS effect. AI would need to focus on these few early bases development first instead of building expensive colony pods in underdeveloped bases, same as human players. Bases are intended to be expensive in relation to their size, when small. Anti-ICS would encourage growing bases to larger sizes with many workers. Reasoning: considered what such colony pods (made on Earth) were said to carry from Earth, one can think that their replication would not be an easy task. Thus both high cost and maybe a tech. I'm testing Mobility, but making a new tech here might be interesting, also available from the very start. Other option: Industrial Base, I was trying it before, but this tech is already "occupied" by many other items. Level 2 technology may be acceptable, if, let's say, a faction starts with 4 colony pods. That's something to test.
9. Sea colony pods enabled like in Doctrine: Initiative. Possible, that Pirates would be in large disadvantage (AI), but it all depends on redesign of tech tree. A remark: it is possible to make different techs for land and sea colony pods by predefined units. Colony pod as equipment would be further in the tech tree. Reasoning: ocean exploration was never an easy task. Even now it is said, that Mars surface is much better explored than Earth's ocean floor. In general, e.g. open pit mine is so much easier to build than a mining platform. Same a base or station, on land easier than on ocean shelf for example.
That's true. There is though a way to offset this effect by making rec tanks necessary to get minerals and especially any energy from base tile. So far, Base tile gives only 2 nutrients when not aided by recycling. You get no minerals and have no chance for energy even if it is boosted by +ECONOMY or more, not even headquarters Base. This can be done by setting base tile apropriately. By assigning high cost to recycling tanks you make a player to pay for "basic" base operation. This will discourage, in my opinion, building many bases that are planned to be not developed, or a player can do it accepting higher cost.
Recycling tanks generally support ICS. Making it not require Biogenetics would make Biogenetics a fairly weak tech.
This is a try to make something like in civ4. When you increase number of cities in civ4, their maintenance grows. You could still have many bases with size 1, but for a price of very expensive colony pod, lack of ability of such base to produce more colony pods and with max 1 worker having little production. Convoy crawlers will also be very expensive. Higher investment costs will reduce this "exponential growth" effect that we have in SMACX. At least I think it may work like this. When version 0.4 is completed, tests will show.Quote3. Changed 'Hab complex' as 'Life support' and available with no prerequisite. ...
As flavor, it works. Mechanically, I don't think requiring any maintenance to grow beyond size 1 is a good idea.
Mindworms would not be enabled here. But with cheaper facility, by the time this higher tech for mindworms is researched, all of a faction bases may have it. On the other hand, such morale bonus would be equally available to all factions.Quote4. The third facility available from the very start: 'Science Lab' (originally Biology Lab). ...
Could work; it would increase the power of production-supported worm rushing, though, by allowing a +lifecycle facility to be built so early.
That's true, and I was thinking about enhancing bases defensive rating. And when colony pods are expensive, players, AI too, I think, would manufacture more defensive units.Quote5. Speeder chassis. ...
It's a very powerful option, especially that early; this will have huge effects on the early game, as well as making it more aggressive.
Yes, but 2 things are in plans:Quote7. Doctrine Flexibility - tech set as having no requirements. That is in regard to what is said in (6.). And this would be 9th tech available to research from the very start.
This will make the race to air power shorter, and thus more deadly.
Multiplayer tests would be needed. I cannot know, how other human players would think, but with less opportunity to grow so fast and spread many bases, players may pay more attention to defense. And not defense by offense, but actually guarding their territory.Quote8. Colony pods - disabled from the very start and made very expensive. ...
This will drive aggression way up.
That's true. There is though a way to offset this effect by making rec tanks necessary to get minerals and especially any energy from base tile.
You get no minerals and have no chance for energy even if it is boosted by +ECONOMY or more, not even headquarters Base. This can be done by setting base tile apropriately.
By assigning high cost to recycling tanks you make a player to pay for "basic" base operation. This will discourage, in my opinion, building many bases that are planned to be not developed, or a player can do it accepting higher cost.
Biogenetics can get other triggered stuff. Also, Human Genome Project is not something with little value.
This is a try to make something like in civ4. When you increase number of cities in civ4, their maintenance grows.
You could still have many bases with size 1, but for a price of very expensive colony pod, lack of ability of such base to produce more colony pods and with max 1 worker having little production. Convoy crawlers will also be very expensive. Higher investment costs will reduce this "exponential growth" effect that we have in SMACX. At least I think it may work like this. When version 0.4 is completed, tests will show.Quote
The problem is that you're increasing the "exponential growth" effect most at the beginning, where it's weakest, and less in the later game as it gets stronger.QuoteBut with cheaper facility, by the time this higher tech for mindworms is researched, all of a faction bases may have it. On the other hand, such morale bonus would be equally available to all factions.
It would still push toward more native aggression.QuoteOne can think of making some offset to this. There is at least one way I think of right now. In combat rules it can be adjusted offense:defense ratio. Even separately for land, sea and air!
Except that mindworms will use that both attacking and defending. And it will have effects on later-game things.QuoteThat's true, and I was thinking about enhancing bases defensive rating.
Careful, as that doesn't help formers out in the field.QuoteAnd when colony pods are expensive, players, AI too, I think, would manufacture more defensive units.Quote
It would still push things more toward military and away from a builder style.QuoteYes, but 2 things are in plans:
- Air Power made more distant in tech tree.
- Air power offensive strategies make somewhat weaker, for example by making AAA easier to get, etc.
Yes, that would help. I would propose making AAA and air superiority easier to get, plus making choppers not get a movement boost from reactor.QuoteMultiplayer tests would be needed. I cannot know, how other human players would think, but with less opportunity to grow so fast and spread many bases, players may pay more attention to defense. And not defense by offense, but actually guarding their territory.
Could be. It would still change the game style to a more military-focused one.
You can set base tile yield with negative values. Then any bonuses (e.g. energy +5) will bring no energy, if this negative is let's say -10. Rec tank would bring it back, e.g. +10 or +11. Then you get +5 working again.
Yes, that's true. What works is giving "one and only one" bonus for HQ facility of negative upkeep. E.g. -30. It works like actually giving a player 30 EC each turn. So a player can have several bases before this maintenance cost hits him/her.
I was thinking of making formers cheaper and also work faster.
Multiplayer facilities. This good idea.
What I tried for now, is doing high cost with energy multiplication. It is relatively easy for human player, but AI will not do it right. Or at least I haven't found good balance, because AI builds them at wrong time. E.g. I make 'Quantum Lab' costing 55 EC to maintain. You would not build it before your EC increase from Quantum Lab is sufficient to cover that cost, but AI doesn't seem to understand it well.
With mineral and lab points multiplication I think of doing something else. To bring them earlier in the tech tree. Maybe making less expensive to build. Then, you decrease this bad 'exponential effect' in early game, as you mentioned, and in late game it is smaller because of this. You just already have it working when late game comes. And with slower research rate for the whole game, late game research rate is so several times slower too.
You mean, that with Biology Lab easier to get, e.g. Gaians will have more easy to fight with mindworms?
When playing civ4, I noticed, that good city defenses slow aggressive play considerably. Making defenses easier to get could stop momentum player. Playtesting will tell.
You do not loose energy from such base tile. That's the thing - you just cannot get plus energy, but negatives do not take it away. And that is good, cause it allows for such tricks.
I am against exponential growth.
That's the only thing: terrain level change is made more expensive, for now from 12 to 24 turns! And while other actions are 2 or 3 turns mostly. This makes raise terrain "less attractive" when you can do a lot of terrain terraforming with few formers, you are less eager to have them 10 times more to do it in the same number of turns. Manufacturing 10 formers instead of 1 is one cost, the other is 10 more minerals of upkeep, roughly speaking. And game does it too cheaply, the cheapest I saw was 4 EC. But I will have to actually see it in action, if such cost of 24 turns is reasonable. On the other hand, I would not like to have raising/lowering terrain disabled.
E.g. you build Human Genome, Planetary Transit and you do not worry about drones, also can have many small bases without facilities bringing good yield fast.
Builders as oposed to momentum players, need more turns to setup their faction.
ICS problem is also about benefits of the base tile, that needs no population!
It is worked just cause a base is there. You can make all pop doctors and this tile is worked for free. Often base tile is better than terraformed terrain, e.g. you have high economy rating and get many +energy from base tile.
Quantum Lab is late game facility. Other energy multiplication get lower costs. I am not sure 55 is appropriate, but it is for now tested.
I also changed other things too: hurrying costs 2 times. And possibly think of getting it even higher. This acts much against exponential growth.
And back to the drawing board, with Life Support. Probably I noticed that few years back, as I now recall... When I had built too many facilities and my income got to -11, I soon got one of the Life Support facilities disassambled. Unfortunatelly, population did not decrease from 3 to 1. So a player can potentially build it for pop growth and then for the time of keeping it steady, destroy it saving each turn its high upkeep cost.
It will not work.
I had also another idea, that would make maintenance cost dependent on population size, but it is not possible to give "regular" citizens, workers, talents and drones, the effects in lab, economy and psych, the same as other specialists. Then it would very closely mimic civ4. Let's say talents and workers would cost -1 economy, but drones -2. One could even think of disabling somehow drone riots, since a player would pay for drones more than for workers and talents. Closely to what's in civ4, where unhappy citizens do not work, but there are no riots stopping all city production, science, food production. But I tried to add to workers effects like for specialists and it did not work.
Mart, how about just placing a -3 growth at one of the 4 basic SE tabs? It would be a hard barrier to cross for most factions until they put up a facility giving + growth, or certain techs are researched offering + growth when SE is changed then.
Mart, how about just placing a -3 growth at one of the 4 basic SE tabs? It would be a hard barrier to cross for most factions until they put up a facility giving + growth, or certain techs are researched offering + growth when SE is changed then.
Actually, I think -3 growth stops all growth, so it'd essentially mean everyone except Yang and Maar is unable to grow until they get Planetary Networks or Ethical Calculus.
Fortunately with Grav-Struts they stay as Infantry as far as those bonuses are concerned. :)
And yeah I had basic costs in my game so high (as everything was predesigned) that workshop was completely useless.
Yeah I used to do that until BU told me it would be better to make it useless than make the game crash.
Yep. The datalinks become crash to desktop buttons. :O Doing anything in the workshop except closing it crashed the game too.
Yeah I am guessing they are divide by zero errors or something probably.