Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: Kilkakon on September 23, 2013, 04:33:10 AM

Title: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on September 23, 2013, 04:33:10 AM
There's been a few people who've said I should make them for SMAX. Of course, this opens an interesting balancing point: my game has its own tech tree, its own units, its own facilities and its own SE choices.

How does this translate to SMAX? There's been a few attempts due to people wanting to draft them in AARs, but let's have a look at all of them now.

To help out, here's a summary:
(click to show/hide)

What do you think would work for these guys in the normal game? :) Open to discussion!
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on September 23, 2013, 04:44:53 AM
The first thing we ought to look at is their respective ideologies and themes associated with them: and try to translate that to a SMAC/X version of it, then hammer the stats and other stuff later. Maybe a brief synopsis of their beliefs? I know a few of these already because I've used these before in some of my gameplay sessions (tweaked them of course to fit in a bit better: Still core theme kept, and fun factions I must say, The Betrayed are quite a scary opponent) but others here may not know.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on September 23, 2013, 04:54:47 AM
Okay sure. :) I'll write out some very brief idealogies here:

True Arena
Believes in strength and power. Opens arenas to the public of all walks of life to test their combat skill against tough creatures and bosses. Very military orientated.

Deadly Assassins
Seek enlightenment, very knowledge/ethereal sorts. Espionage and cloak and dagger tactics prevail.

The Betrayed
Former genetic experiments out for revenge in a big way. Everything must burn.

Blackband's Pirates
Stereotypical pirate, take what you can and give nothing back.

CyndaTech Industries
Athiestic industrial state, seeking to eliminate painful emotions from life

Darrus' Adventurers
See themselves as the law keepers of the land, they build towns and most of their males go out and adventure

The Realm of Light
Loving, peaceful society. Christian, rather small.

Oblivion's Fallen
Powerful, large faction. Incredibly hedonistic. Sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll here.

The Community of Rakis
Peacemaker, normaliser faction. Wants to end wars and create world peace.

Latios Express
Wants to bring people together by creating a flight network. He's all about flying and flying transport.

Spinda Café
All about opening cafes and item shops for people to enjoy. Customer satisafication.

Seafoam Collective
Their original islands were so crowded they had to expand. These are those people. Often looked down upon as living on other people's turf.

Vixen's Path
Matriach society. Males are the warriors, survivors and victors get to breed, failures and weaklings get neutered and sent out to die. Women rule and run the cities.

Protectors of the Wild
Runs a series of ancient temples. Really just want to be left alone and defend themselves against all newcomers.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on September 26, 2013, 01:52:00 AM
Any ideas or thoughts? :)
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on September 26, 2013, 02:16:58 AM
I got plenty, but I was hoping for someone to post before me so I am not hogging and seemingly dictating the idea's.

But I'll make the plunge.


The Air transport one should be translated as a sort of "Postman" faction if you know what I mean: They want to unify Planet via communication and transportation, and technically do not run on any ideal. Though for the sake of SE choices, they would pick Wealth as their main one, and probably have no anti-ideology.

Have them start with some sort of air related thing or transport related thing: Maybe to make them interesting, have them start with air units, but have some serious penalty for naval units, like having them all as slow maybe... not sure. What I was thinking was Copter Colony pods and such, make them crazy unique and funny that way,and have air units. Just some sort of penalty to counteract it... im not sure.


As for the Assassins, their ideal is in no need of changing, they just need a re-texture for their leaderhead I think...

Same goes with Matriachs.

As for the True Arena something interesting can happen for them: Have them a survival of the fittest gladiator style society: Where everyone is a slave that needs to fight for their freedom, like as young people to become adults, and thus citizens, they must kill/win a fight in the arena, and area combat constantly trains them for battle. Sort of like a [progeny of unmarried parents] mix of my Valhallans+The Imperium Crescint, if you need a comparison.

Betrayed mainly just need a re-skin for the most part and SE conversions, but ideal wise they can work, might want to look to my version of them to get idea's.

Blackband's pirates just seem to be a more chaotic version of  ;ulrik;, and they need something to make them more unique.

Cyndatech seems pretty cool, a Corporate style police state. They might just need re-skins for the most part really.

The Adventurer's can be reskinned, and also a bit re-themed to maybe have a faction of adventuring explorers and such and focus on the theme of Centauri explorers, maybe have them have bonuses for exploration or exploration related things or formers. Like give them doctrine mobility for a starter tech.

Realm of light needs a re-working due to the multicultural background, maybe have them instead of a Christian religious movement, they are more of moralistic faction of fundamentalists that are probably more accepting then factions like  ;miriam; or ;cha; and are mainly pacifists, wanting to just have their own simple lives. Might be a bit repressive, think of Amish style culture maybe...

The fallen also need a bit of reworking, but mostly in the naming compartment/theme a bit. A hedonistic society with full on liberalism has appeal, it just needs retexturing and restructiuring, core idea doesn't need to be changed too much.

The Community of Rakis sounds like an Egalitarian, Communitarian faction, just more peaceful then the Comrades and probably not as Socialist. So just have them more focused on pacifism and growth over war, and we'll figure out some re-naming.

Spindas Cafe just needs renaming and a more serious approach, maybe have them be a form of energy/information traders, as opposed to a monopolizing conglomerate. Sort of like Sigma's house Satori, but more focused on actual trade then keeping a vast network of spies and diplomacy, so maybe give them mostly commercial bonuses.

Seafoam Collective just needs something to replace the "Seafoam" part of their name and then a re-texture. Their motto of rapid expansion and industrialized communities at the sake of planet is already a strong idea, that one doesn't need too much work.

The protectors of the wild sound like a planet supporting faction, and for this one have them focused on two things: A Defence bonus and maybe something like growth. They aren't the most aggressive faction but they can put up a very strong fight while defending, and a player/faction will need to fight them eventually due to their growth.

Those are just some basic ideas I had, I have more but I'd like to let others speak/that stuff formulate.



Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on September 26, 2013, 02:28:30 AM
Thank you for your input. :) We're fortunate in that Assassins and True Arena can be ported across without much in the way of changing.

So far, Pirates, Oblivion and Betrayed have been converted previously, although I am willing to give them a second look to make sure the pack is all good. :)

One idea, especially for those who have an immunity to a social engineering choice, is to roll the bonuses from that choice right into the faction. :)

As a side note, I will probably not be changing the graphics for these. It's mainly just asking about the rules side of things here. :D
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on September 26, 2013, 02:41:46 AM
What about for leaderheads? You keeping them as the beasties or you want human/more vanilla flavoured equivalents?
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on September 26, 2013, 02:44:30 AM
I'll probably keep the beasties. The main reasons for making a version for SMAX is that people who want to use the leaders in AARs or just mix them into a random bunch of people can do so, whereas now they can't use due to tech and civic incompabilities. And it helps out Ete's wiki endeavours. :D
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on September 26, 2013, 02:47:02 AM
Alright, so these are just gameplay conversions over total conversions to SMAC/X lore. Understand now  ;)
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on September 26, 2013, 02:51:34 AM
Hehe thanks regardless for your input. Some of your suggestions are still perfectly valid.

I'd probably have Realm of Light going Eudiamonic as their agenda. Perhaps Rakis as well. :) I'm guessing Police State for CyndaTech.

Fortunately as you say, True Arena and Assassins can be ported across without any changes as their stats and civics are the same mostly.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 01, 2013, 02:56:32 AM
Had a stab at the agendae, what do you think?

Realm of Light: Eudaimonic
Protectors of the Wild: Green
Oblivion's Fallen: Thought Control
CyndaTech Industries: Police State
Community of Rakis: Democratic
Blackband's Pirates: Power
Deadly Assassins: Knowledge
Spinda Cafe: Wealth
The Betrayed: Thought Control
Latios Express: Free Market (maybe?)
True Arena: Power

Still unsure about Seafoam, Vixen's Path and Darrus' Adventurers.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 01, 2013, 03:29:45 AM
Those seem solid enough.

Knowledge and not Power for the Assassins?  Is that for variety?
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 01, 2013, 03:37:37 AM
These particular ones are more focusing on enlightenment than brute strength. *nods*
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 01, 2013, 03:43:22 AM
Sorta like Bushido Buddhism, huh?
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on October 01, 2013, 06:54:30 AM
It seems so, given the architecture and mentality. If his Assassins were more hired hitmen/hired guild it'd be wealth.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Yitzi on October 03, 2013, 05:49:35 PM
Quote from: Kilkakon on September 23, 2013, 04:54:47 AM
Okay sure. :) I'll write out some very brief idealogies here:

True Arena
Believes in strength and power. Opens arenas to the public of all walks of life to test their combat skill against tough creatures and bosses. Very military orientated.

Very Spartan-like.  Say +2 MORALE, +1 SUPPORT, -1 GROWTH (due to casualties), -1 INDUSTRY (they're too busy fighting), free command center at every base.  Starts with Doctrine: Mobility.  POLICE immunity.  Favors Power, can't use Wealth.

Quote
Deadly Assassins
Seek enlightenment, very knowledge/ethereal sorts. Espionage and cloak and dagger tactics prevail.

Say +1 RESEARCH, +1 PROBE, +2 EFFICIENCY, -2 SUPPORT (not really into large armies), free covert ops at every base with tech.  Starts with Information Networks.  Free prototypes.  Knowledge impunity.  Favors Knowledge, can't use Police State.

Quote
The Betrayed
Former genetic experiments out for revenge in a big way. Everything must burn.

-2 GROWTH, -1 ECONOMY, -2 PLANET, +2 MORALE, +2 SUPPORT, fanatic.  Begins with Applied Physics and Biogenetics.  Favors Power, can't use Green.

Quote
Blackband's Pirates
Stereotypical pirate, take what you can and give nothing back.

Aquatic faction, +2 SUPPORT (they get most of their supplies from plunder), 1 drone every 4 citizens.  Begins with Doctrine:Flexibility.  Techsteal.  Favors Power, can't use Democracy.

Quote
CyndaTech Industries
Athiestic industrial state, seeking to eliminate painful emotions from life

+2 INDUSTRY, immunity POLICE (only needed if playing that -POLICE disables punishment spheres), free (and automatic) punishment spheres at every base ("no painful emotions" would eliminate unhappiness but also creativity).  Begins with Industrial Base and Social Psych.  All units get Trance for free (not much for worms to work on).  Favors Planned, can't use Fundamentalism.

Quote
Darrus' Adventurers
See themselves as the law keepers of the land, they build towns and most of their males go out and adventure

+50% council votes, +1 talent every 4 citizens, +1 MORALE, -1 GROWTH.  Every unit gets free Deep Radar with the appropriate tech.  Begins with Doctrine:Mobility.  Favors Wealth, cannot use Police State.

Quote
The Realm of Light
Loving, peaceful society. Christian, rather small.

2 free drones, 1 talent per 4 citizens, -2 MORALE, +1 GROWTH (good for family life).  Impunity to fundamentalism.  Begins with Social Psych.  Favors fundamentalism, cannot use Police State.

Quote
Oblivion's Fallen
Powerful, large faction. Incredibly hedonistic. Sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll here.
+2 GROWTH, +2 ECONOMY, -2 MORALE (lack of discipline), -2 POLICE, -2 PROBE, free rec commons.  1 drone per 3 citizens.  Begins with no techs, favors Free Market, can't use Fundamentalism.

Quote
The Community of Rakis
Peacemaker, normaliser faction. Wants to end wars and create world peace.

Double council votes, +1 commerce, -2 MORALE, -2 SUPPORT, -5 POLICE, 80% on offense.  Begins with Social Psych.  Favors Eudaimonia, can't use Police State.

Quote
Latios Express
Wants to bring people together by creating a flight network. He's all about flying and flying transport.

+2 commerce, -2 MORALE (he wants to bring people together, not kill them), begins with Doctrine: Air Power and 2 free scout choppers.  Gets a free Aerospace Complex at every base, and free drop pods with the appropriate tech.  Favors Free Market, cannot use Power. 

Quote
Spinda Café
All about opening cafes and item shops for people to enjoy. Customer satisafication.

+1 ECONOMY, +3 commerce, -1 INDUSTRY, -2 PROBE.  Begins with Social Psych.  Favors Free Market, cannot use Power.

Quote
Seafoam Collective
Their original islands were so crowded they had to expand. These are those people. Often looked down upon as living on other people's turf.

The fundamental principle makes no sense in SMAC(/X)...this is not doable.

Quote
Vixen's Path
Matriach society. Males are the warriors, survivors and victors get to breed, failures and weaklings get neutered and sent out to die. Women rule and run the cities.

+1 MORALE, -2 RESEARCH (half their population isn't contributing), fanatic, +20% on both offense and defense.  Begins with Doctrine:Mobility, favors Police State, cannot use Democracy.

Quote
Protectors of the Wild
Runs a series of ancient temples. Really just want to be left alone and defend themselves against all newcomers.

+2 PLANET, -2 ECONOMY, -2 POLICE.  Free Temple of Planet in every base, +20% psi combat.  Begins with Centauri Ecology and Centauri Empathy, favors Green, cannot use Free Market.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 04, 2013, 01:59:48 AM
Thanks Yitzi. :) Some of those ideas take them in a dramatically different direction to my mod, but it's cool to see that fresh, other perspective. I can use these as an alternative way to incorporate each individual faction if the original concept just doesn't carry across well. :nod:
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on October 04, 2013, 02:15:32 AM
On terms of the Seafoam collective, I disagree with Yitzi. We just modify the idea a bit is all: Have it where they are an expansionist colonization group focused on growing their populations and industry on the sea. An industrialist/colonist faction essentially. For stats... if we are modifying them,

1+Industry, 1+ Growth, -1 Effic, -2 Planet? As for tech, doctrine flexibility or give them Doctrine Initiative, with Industrial Automation: They have large ships, and such but have a horrendous planet score and their rapid expansionism can cause problems with efficiency.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 04, 2013, 02:18:49 AM
Normally, Seaform start off with extra pods. That's their main thing. Seems like we're on the same track though Jarl, as in LE they take an Effic hit as well. :D

Cheers guys. In a few days or so I'll have a go at making some draft versions of the stats.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on October 04, 2013, 02:21:50 AM
Quote from: Kilkakon on October 04, 2013, 02:18:49 AM
Normally, Seaform start off with extra pods. That's their main thing. Seems like we're on the same track though Jarl, as in LE they take an Effic hit as well. :D

Cheers guys. In a few days or so I'll have a go at making some draft versions of the stats.

Maybe have it where they get extra pods, and start with doctrine initiative over doctrine flexibility: Have them start with larger ships first over small ones, which means they have big juggernaughts of ships, but they are costly to produce, especially so early on.

Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 04, 2013, 02:23:42 AM
Yeah that's cool. :) Have a bit of a nautical flavour in there perhaps~
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: JarlWolf on October 04, 2013, 02:27:05 AM
Also, while I know you stated that you wanted to keep the original graphics of your mod, I wouldn't mind doing some industrial overhaul thing for the Seafoam Collective, making their bases look like big industrial shipping yards or something.

Entirely up to you of course, but an offer none the less.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 04, 2013, 02:31:05 AM
Offer's appreciated. :)

There's certainly no harm in having more variants available if that's what people like. I mean, I'd already be shoving a naked and censored version of the pcx into the file, could always have a more futuristic one.

Some of the cities already fit rather well into SMAX, fortunately. My decision to stick with the original walls was a great one in hindsight. XD
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 14, 2013, 02:06:34 AM
Just to let you guys know I am interested in doing this still, even if only a few have posted. I'll also finish off my Tomorrow and Acolyte factions too. Poor ete, his wiki isn't getting any love from my factions at the moment from their not-quite-finished-ness, haha XD
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: ete on October 14, 2013, 03:09:58 AM
Cool stuff, I've been meaning to post here with a load of balance suggestions but have had little time online to write up a big post for ages and there's a lot to reply to.

Very brief thoughts.. a fair few seem to operate on a higher power level than official factions (Assassins, Betrayed, Cynda), most seem like they should port directly without changes, and a few seem perhaps weak compared to existing factions (your pirates vs official pirates is the clearest example). Three factions seem fairly complex in a way I'm not familiar with so will have to play with/think a lot more to get much of an idea of balance:
The Betrayed due to the very large psi bonus without native capture ability - very interesting idea, wonder if building natives becomes worthwhile/too strong. Also, Manifold Nexus exists in basic SMAX which could tip their balance massively.
Oblivion's Fallen mostly due to five SE modifiers at once and a key facility. My gut feeling is they'd need a notable buff, or have their impunity set to another key SE choice (Democratic, any economic choice, or maaaybe power).
Latios Express due to free Psi gates and complex SE choice considerations. At -3 Support, they take a massive hit from democratic, the best builder politics, (-2 mins per unit), which could be mitigated by Power.. but they really want Wealth for +1 eng/square. They may end up balanced, and if they do they'll be a very unusual/interesting faction, but it's hard to see how their stats will interact with SMAX SE settings without more thought/play.

I'd encourage you to do a straight port, or as close as you can, and let the AI play through a handful of games. Should give a vague idea of who does well and not, though humans play quite differently.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 14, 2013, 03:17:08 AM
Oh right, well thanks Ete for making the post that you did. :) I will keep it in mind, particularly the power levels of the factions involved.

Betrayed in LE are all about building natives, yeah. :) With Brood Pits they become quite strong.

And yeah these Pirates have the nerfs they have due to the way the oceans work in LE, being high production.

Cheers guys. :) I have a busy week ahead but when I get a chance I will whip up a few prototypes and give them a whirl.
Title: Re: So about my factions... (LE -> SMAX balance thoughts)
Post by: Kilkakon on October 16, 2014, 03:57:20 PM
Ah here's the thread! Found it :)

Bumped for thoughts.
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