Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: Nexii on September 15, 2013, 12:54:27 AM

Title: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 15, 2013, 12:54:27 AM

Looking for critical feedback on these modifications.  I reworked the original 7 factions to be a bit more in line with how I view them.  They all have 4 positive effects and 3 negative effects (well 2 and their aversion).  The goal was to also give incentives for the factions to choose their preferred SE setting (mostly through IMPUNITY/ROBUST).

Firstly I modified the SE settings to be a bit more in line with how I feel their effects should be:

Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC, 
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC, +GROWTH, +ECONOMY, ----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,  ++PROBE,   ---RESEARCH

Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++INDUSTRY, ---PLANET, ---MORALE
Planned,         PlaNets, ++GROWTH,  +SUPPORT,  --EFFIC
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  +++EFFIC,    --ECONOMY, -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT, --INDUSTRY,
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC,    --PROBE,
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++ECONOMY,  ---RESEARCH
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, +++++RESEARCH, +++++EFFIC, -----POLICE,
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++++++++++TALENT, ++++GROWTH, ++++INDUSTRY, -----MORALE,
Thought Control, WillPow, +++++POLICE, +++MORALE,  +++PROBE, -----SUPPORT


Police State had no changes.  It's still very useful for keeping drones under control and maintaining large armies.

Democracy got 1 less GROWTH - thus making population booming more difficult.  It now takes a Golden Age for all factions but the PKs to hit +6 GROWTH.  Democracy is now more of an anti-war choice with the -4 POLICE.  -SUPPORT didn't really make as much sense to me, as this impacts building formers/pods.  It also gives +1 ECON which gives the option of early Democracy with Rec Commons.

Fundamentalism got a boost with +2 MORALE now instead of just +1.  Offsetting this slightly is -3 RESEARCH instead of -2.

Free Market got a large change.  It's less impactful now with +2 INDUSTRY replacing +2 ECONOMY.  +2 INDUSTRY isn't quite as powerful, but with -3 MORALE instead of -5 POLICE, it has less of a downside. 

Planned got +1 SUPPORT instead of +1 INDUSTRY.  This makes it better early in the game and less powerful late in the game.

Green got large changes as well.  +3 EFFIC up from +2, and -2 ECONOMY/-1 INDUSTRY instead of -2 GROWTH.  I feel in theme Green wouldn't really discourage population growth - but it would slow down industry and energy production.

Power - No changes.  It still has its place and is better now with Fund+Power combination, you can get +3 MORALE from SE.  With a Command Center and Monolith you can make Elites without having to be Spartan.

Knowledge - No changes.

Wealth - Now functions more like Free Market with +2 ECONOMY.  This might be too powerful with only -3 RESEARCH on the downside.  The intent was for it to be something you'd go for more for rush building or Population Booming.

The future techs are all much more impactful.  Honestly the game is usually over by this point, so it probably doesn't matter.  Cyber is now extreme for research, Eudaimonia for extreme industry/pop growth, and Thought Control for extreme warring.


FACTIONS:

BELIEVERS:
Bonuses:
^+25% bonus to attack: {Strength of convictions}
^+1 SUPPORT: {Citizens eager to defend faith}
^-50% probe action costs: {Proselytism}
^{IMPUNITY to Fundamentalist politics}
^
Penalties:
^-2 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
^-1 POLICE: {Mixed techological views cause dissent}
^{May not use Knowledge value in Social Engineering}


GAIANS:
Bonuses:
^+25% to PSI combat: {Attunement with Planet}
^+2 PLANET: {Environmental safeguards; can capture mindworms}
^+1 EFFICIENCY: {Experience with life systems & recycling}
^ROBUST ECONOMY: {Green economic tendency}
^
Penalties:
^-1 MORALE: {Pacifist tendencies}
^-1 POLICE: {Freedom loving}
^{May not use Free Market economics}

HIVE:
^+25% bonus to defense: {Stoic-mindedness}
^+1 POLICE: {Brutal serfdom}
^+1 SUPPORT: {Aggressive military focus}
^{IMPUNITY to negative Police State effects.}
^
Penalties:
^Need HAB COMPLEX for bases to exceed size 4: {Underground bunkers}
^Extra DRONE per 4 population: {Oppressive authoritarian society}
^{May not use Democratic politics.}

MORGAN:
Bonuses:
^+1 ECONOMY:  {Understanding of economic behavior}
^+1 INDUSTRY:  {Industrial conglomerate}
^COMMERCE: {bonus increases value of treaties, pacts, loans}
^{Begins with 100 extra energy credits}
^
Penalties:
^-1 GROWTH: {Followers value luxuries over family}
^-1 MORALE:  {Prefer trading over war}
^{May not use Planned Economics}

PEACEKEEPERS:
^+1 GROWTH: {Attracts intellectual elite and refugees}
^May exceed HAB COMPLEX population requirements by 2.
^Receives DOUBLE votes in elections for Planetary Governor and Supreme Leader.
^Revolting bases tend to join PKs: {"Humanitarian" intervention}
^
Penalties:
^-1 EFFICIENCY:  {U.N. style bureaucracy}
^-1 PROBE: {Belief in free flow of information}
^{May not use Police State Politics.}

SPARTANS:
^Two MORALE upgrades for all units:  {Well-armed survivalist movement}
^+1 POLICE:  {Highly disciplined followers}
^Prototype units do not cost extra minerals.
^{IMPUNITY to negative effects of Power value.}
^
Penalties:
^-1 INDUSTRY:  {Extravagant weapons are costly}
^-1 ECONOMY:  {Focused on military over economy}
^{May not use Wealth value in Social Engineering.}

UNIVERSITY:
Bonuses:
^+2 RESEARCH:  {Brilliant research}
^{-25% additional reduced discovery costs}
^ROBUST PROBE: {Halves negative PROBE effects}
^One BONUS TECH at beginning of game
^
Penalties:
^-1 SUPPORT: {Advanced laboratories require mineral upkeep}
^Rush costs increased 25%: {Academics favored over construction}
^{May not use Fundamentalist Politics.}

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: ete on September 15, 2013, 08:46:12 PM

Interesting.. Notes on SE settings:
Thought Control with that large negative support is terrible for war (unless clean reactors), even with large boosts.
Power could probably do with a buff
FM is likely underpowered with the eng boost gone and two major penalties.
Wealth is likely overpowered, especially mid-later?

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 15, 2013, 10:30:31 PM

Power might be a bit weak, even with the buff to Fundamentalism.  I'm going to try some games with just -1 IND as the downside and see how it plays out.

Thought Control, Eudaimonic, and Cybernetic...ah what to say.  I don't feel that the descriptions in game (and in Datalinks/literature) matched their SE bonuses at all.  If anything I think Thought Control deserves negatives to Research and/or Growth.  Cybernetic should have negative Support and/or Probe.  Eudaiomonic, well it was closer to the Utopian ideal in its bonuses.

Wealth is actually super powerful early and becomes less so later on.  +1 EN/sq is 2x or more energy early so even with -30% labs you're up by 40% on research.  Economy is a really hard SE to balance.  I wish it just gave commerce and energy credit modifiers and didn't also play into labs (that's what Research SE is for).

The modified Free Market...I'm not so sure yet.  +2 IND is actually a really good bonus and you can get it early.  I think I'll tweak the Morale to give -2 instead of -3 and see how it plays.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: JarlWolf on September 16, 2013, 12:58:45 AM

Surprised you removed the Police penalty with FM, given Free Market often has a lot of disparity between rich and poor+lots of crime and corruption, more so then other society models...

I think with Cybernetic the drawbacks should be negatives in police and probably probe: It's a very vulnerable network that's very hard to monitor as everything is digitized essentially. Thought Control should have halved research+some sort of energy cost given the impediments on free thinking and other things...

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Dio on September 16, 2013, 01:42:02 AM

Perhaps you should consider giving Free Market - x Talent as a way to balance it instead of -5 police.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Kilkakon on September 16, 2013, 01:52:58 AM

I personally don't like the TALENT stat as it doesn't appear on the SE screen. But it is an option sure. :)

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: JarlWolf on September 16, 2013, 02:06:15 AM

I think if anything should get the talent drawback, it should be Thought Control and Fundamentalism. Free Market is chaotic, but a penalty to talents, I think not.

Maybe change out the -2 Morale with -2 Police? Soldiers in a Free Market probably wouldn't be bad, because in reality a very tense competitive environment like that is going to breed professional soldiers, as the demand for well trained and equipped troops for... dealing with business rivals or even the faction itself hiring mercenaries/soldiers is going to be important.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 16, 2013, 02:31:20 AM

I see POLICE as more of a willingness(or unwillingness) to use extreme methods to suppress the population, than drone tendencies.  I don't know that I'd say Free market has high crime/corruption. (which is more like -EFFIC than -POLICE).  In today's world countries that have more free markets tend to have less social unrest if anything.  Pollution (-PLANET) is an obvious downside.  I could try FM at just +2 IND / -3 PLANET? 

To me Democracy is more tied to -POLICE than Free Market.  It's democratic societies that have more limits on how they can treat civilian dissent. +1 TALENT for Democracy might be better than +1 ECON, to offset the no police sentinel.

Cybernetic, I'm not sure if the -POLICE really makes sense either - at least from the poverty angle noted in the game.  -PROBE is logical (more production tied to machines, so more vulnerabilities).  If anything I think Cyber's bonuses are really off too.  Having machines run things would more likely increase research, industry and efficiency.  Perhaps something like +2 IND / +2 EFFIC / +2 RESEARCH / -2 PROBE.

Eudaimonia should probably be a more extreme version of Wealth - a massive bonus to ECON/GROWTH and being the best in peace time.  Downsides would seem to be MORALE or POLICE (pacifism).

-RESEARCH makes sense for Thought Control, certainly more than -SUPPORT.  When I think TC I think Orwellian society...they were stagnant in technology but also advocated less procreation. With purges as well I could see -GROWTH as a believable downside.  Wealth has to be reworked.  Otherwise you can sort of stack all the -RESEARCH (Fund/Wealth/TC) as it caps out at -5.
How about something like +3 MORALE, +3 PROBE, +3 POLICE, -5 RESEARCH for TC?

I'm thinking Wealth might go to +2 ECON / -5 MORALE.  Let's face it the rich are never the ones to fight in war.  But I'm not entirely convinced this is enough of a downside...+2 ECON is very good.
-SUPPORT is another idea for it.

As an aside does anyone know how to remove Believer's mod for no research until 2110?

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: JarlWolf on September 16, 2013, 02:52:54 AM

It's tied to their research drawbacks I think.

Police in game is treated both as the reluctance to discipline a population and the actual unrest is creates.

And as for unrest in a Free Market economy, most Western nations actually have some forms of Socialism and government controls on things, if you want examples of a Free Market society you look at the United States, many liberalized third world nations and my country now. The Laissez Faire capitalism era in my nation under Yeltsin was horribly unregulated, numbers of people died due to crime and poverty and criminal activity rose to an all time high. It's why the Oligarchs have so much power in my country now, because of that lack of authority to combat them and that lack of regulation. Plus look at the United States: Many parts of it have corporate corruption, and the United States has a very high crime rate compared to more Socialist nations. Compare Sweden to the USA for example.

I don't know if you seen the crap end of the stick in a Free Market society, even if you live in one, but lots of people do and they are very unhappy about it. And it's not just lowlifes like me who see it, working class families that have both spouses work numerous jobs just to make ends meet, needless to say there is lots of discontentment and inequalities within the spread of wealth that creates a lot of problems.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 16, 2013, 03:16:54 AM

No, it doesn't seem to be tied to that.  I can give believers + to research and they still get no research for 10 turns.

But yea, unfortunately there's no real 'socialist' option for economics.  Socialist might correspond to something like Democracy/Planned rather than PoliceState/Planned (communist) and PoliceState/FreeMarket (fascist).  This is something to think on too for more appropriate planned and democracy benefits.

Actual unrest only for military actions / atrocities.  I think created unrest is more the +DRONE modifier.  To weaken early FM it could have +1 DRONE per base.  I have to admit +2 IND / -3 PLANET would be pretty tempting to go almost every time otherwise.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: JarlWolf on September 16, 2013, 03:38:25 AM

Communist would actually be Democratic/Survival+Planned+Eudaimonic actually. Communism is decentralized, egalitarian society in reality. You are thinking Autocratic Socialism, which is more akin to what the self proclaimed "Communist" states of the world were. (Note Communism and Socialism are related ideals.)

Socialism is more of just a Planned economy. Whatever slant of it, whether you go Autocratic, Democratic or Communist depends on the other choices.

For FM, put more drones associated+planet penalty, and give it an economy or industry bonus. Capitalist/Free market societies are very unstable and horrible for disparity, but they do advance wealth and technology at a fairly good rate.

While as a more Socialist policy creates more stable growth with more security for citizens, but things can lag behind.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Dio on September 16, 2013, 03:47:18 AM

Quote

No, it doesn't seem to be tied to that.  I can give believers + to research and they still get no research for 10 turns.

Any faction that has -2 or lower research in the faction file before other modifiers do not accrue research points until 2110. Also, any faction that has Doctrine: Mobility as a free tech starts with a unity rover instead of a scout patrol.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 16, 2013, 04:14:47 AM

Yea that's what I meant to clarify - PS/Planned as '20th century communism'.  I know this isn't 'true' communism as Marx envisioned it more like Eudaimonia.

So if Planned provides more stability (I'd argue security/police depends more on PS vs Demo/Fund), then the +GROWTH is ok, and +SUPPORT is ok too.  I thought of toning down a bit to just be +1 GROWTH, +1 SUP, -1 EFFIC but this feels not so impactful for an SE.

But I wouldn't say PS/FM has had large scale social unrest.  I think this sort of fascist ideal is at least neutral.  FM at -5 POLICE say and PS at +2, resulting in -3 POLICE just didn't quite seem right.

Democracy I was going to rework some too.  The intent is to make pop booming harder.  +2GROWTH, +2TALENT, -4 POLICE was a thought

This is what I have now anyways, I'll keep tweaking based on feedback.  Keep in mind I'm trying to balance across the reworked Factions as well

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC,
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++GROWTH, ++TALENT, ----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,  ++PROBE,   ---RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++INDUSTRY, ---PLANET, -TALENT
Planned,         PlaNets, +GROWTH,  +SUPPORT,  -EFFIC
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,    -ECONOMY, -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT, -INDUSTRY,
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC,    --PROBE,
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++ECONOMY,  --SUPPORT, --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++INDUSTRY, ++EFFIC, ++RESEARCH, --PROBE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++++GROWTH, ++++ECONOMY, +PLANET, ----MORALE,
Thought Control, WillPow, +++POLICE, +++MORALE,  +++PROBE, -----RESEARCH


Also I did confirm that you're right on the -2 RES and first 10 turns.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 16, 2013, 04:19:40 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on September 16, 2013, 01:52:58 AM

I personally don't like the TALENT stat as it doesn't appear on the SE screen. But it is an option sure. :)

Yea, and neither do the faction specific bonuses.  It would be nice if more was visible for sure.  I do worry a bit on whether the AI takes it into account though.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Kilkakon on September 16, 2013, 04:23:57 AM

The faction bonuses do, they appear on the bottom right side of the main panel, below the ECONOMY, INDUSTRY, etc., list. They are also taken into account on the bottom right. If there's more than 5 icons they don't all show though.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 16, 2013, 04:27:59 AM

Yea I meant the non SE bonuses also don't show (for example TECHCOST 75)

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Kilkakon on September 16, 2013, 04:30:01 AM

Ah well yeah they are calculated separately. Not such an issue for my mod as I don't use many of those at all... only the 1 in 4 talents for my own faction because I'm huggy.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: JarlWolf on September 16, 2013, 04:37:51 AM

For Free Market I suggest have more drones as to less police, because there is more discontent people in this form of society. And it makes sense for Fascism (Police+FM) because in a fascist society you'll have a repressed group of people, and often a targeted group who will try to revolt/strike against the state. For example, Jews, Communists, Gypsies and others who were in Nazi Germany. But the tight controls of the government and its policing will help counteract that.


Add in the drawbacks/advantages police state has, it makes overall sense for a fascist faction to combine this form of FM with Police state.

I suggest taking a look at my Iron Regime faction in my custom faction's thread, they are a fascist faction.

It'd be
Police has better methods and can counteract those drone problems, but there must be an actual police force to do the work or else the repressed people's/scapegoats will try to break free of their repression. Much like in real life. Add in the extra support for a large army+organized industry that fascism promotes, it also matches the ideal.

And then add in the industrial/economic boost with the penalty to efficiency and planet, it makes sense even there because you have a very invigorated industry/economy with the fact that you are culling individuals and businesses just because of their heritage/background, which is highly inefficient, and that the massive amount of industrial ambition and other things is stressing on resources and the environment.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 16, 2013, 11:48:54 AM

Yea.  I put FM to -1 TALENT for 1 more drone per city.  It doesn't sound like a lot but it really is.  How does -2 TALENT play out?  That seems extreme, your starting units wouldn't be able to leave a size one town.  As well you'd always need +3 POLICE or more just to pacify.  I guess it works, though.  If I were to give more drones for FM it would need stronger bonuses (like +2 ECON again). 

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 19, 2013, 03:01:58 AM

Did a few more tweaks to Democratic, Free Market, and Green.  If anyone's bored and wants to try these SE settings I'd love to hear what you think.

I think Free Market might be a bit on the weak side, but it is really good paired with Police State to stabilize (for a Fascist gov't...PS/FM was rarely used before).  To run Demo/FM though I find you really need Psych facilities.  Fundamentalism is still a much better politics choice over PS for war. 

I'm a little concerned Planned and Knowledge are a bit weak.  Planned's +1 SUP is really good though paired with PS/Knowledge or with non-PS/Power, for pretty much all free Clean units (+3 SUP).

With Power actually being good for war, and Wealth being more extreme for fighting/building, Knowledge kind of falls in between as maybe not that useful (as it always did).  But +3 RES or +2 EFFIC might make it too good?  --PROBE isn't a big downside really.  It would have been better if PROBE actually affected probing costs and not just probe %s.

Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC,
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++GROWTH, ++TALENT, ++EFFIC, -----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,  ++PROBE,   ---RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++INDUSTRY, ---PLANET, --TALENT
Planned,         PlaNets, +GROWTH,  +SUPPORT,  -EFFIC
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,    --ECONOMY, -INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT, -INDUSTRY,
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC,    --PROBE,
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++ECONOMY,  ---SUPPORT, --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++INDUSTRY, ++EFFIC, ++RESEARCH, --PROBE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++++GROWTH, ++++ECONOMY, +PLANET, ----MORALE,
Thought Control, WillPow, +++POLICE, +++MORALE,  +++PROBE, -----RESEARCH

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: LastConformist on September 23, 2013, 09:55:28 PM

I tried playing a couple games with these SE choices. I've also given some thought, independently, to what I think are the right SE changes. I agree with you that -POLICE should be associated with Democracy, and there are other changes I think are also key. However, there are problems with some of your changes, and in particular you've nerfed Green beyond all possible usability (-2 Economy is really bad).

Here is what I would propose (with some comments afterward):

Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC,
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++GROWTH, ++EFFIC, ---POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,  ++PROBE,   --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, +ECONOMY, ---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, +GROWTH,  ++INDUSTRY, --EFFIC
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC, --INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT, -INDUSTRY,
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC, --PROBE,
Wealth,          IndAuto,  +ECONOMY,  -SUPPORT, -MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++INDUSTRY, ++EFFIC, ++RESEARCH, ---PROBE
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH, ++ECONOMY, ++SUPPORT, ---MORALE,
Thought Control, WillPow, +++POLICE, +++MORALE,  +++PROBE, ---RESEARCH


As for Democracy, the Police penalty is appropriate. I'm actually not sure why Democracy gets a bonus to Growth (seems at odds with reality), but it is well-established, and I'm not sure of the appropriate alternative. While a boost to Talent sounds much more appropriate, I really think Talent bonuses and penalties ought to be avoided. (You might replace ++Growth with ++Talent.) Without the Talent bonus, the Police penalty is reduced to not be devastating; it only causes pacifism drones if used by the Gaians or Data Angels. (Edit: On the other hand, I realized that the way Police is now designed, there's no way to get -5 Police, and even -4 Police is only possible as the Gaians or Data Angels. Perhaps a Police penalty somewhere else [Wealth, instead of the existing penalties?] is appropriate.)

While the boost to Fundamentalist was kept, I removed the increased Research penalty. Fundamentalist is already a weak choice and could use the small boost. As an alternative to increasing the Research penalty, I think reducing the Probe bonus makes flavor sense.

On Free Market. There has been much debate here on the drone-causing aspects of Free Market. While I agree that that is the case, it fits extremely poorly with the flavor and effects of a negative Police rating (preventing the use of police--hardly unknown in actual free market economies; and reduced support for overseas warfare--sounds like Democracy, not Free Market). If there were an SE stat that just created drones, like the University penalty, it would be appropriate, but there isn't. On the other hand, an Industry but not an Economy bonus to Free Market makes no sense at all. Market economies are very good at creating wealth, but their effectiveness as engines of industry, without government intervention of some sort, is less clear. Plus, Morgan's whole schtick is making lots of money, and Free Market is his SE choice (though perhaps Wealth should be). +Economy is far more appropriate. Since I couldn't settle on an additional penalty beyond ---Planet, I reduced the bonus to +Economy. Now getting +1 energy per square requires running both Free Market and Wealth (or being Morgan), which is effectively a penalty in itself, since you can't get the advantages of Knowledge or Power while getting ++Economy (again, without being Morgan).

As to Planned, I removed the Support bonus and restored (and increased) its Industry bonus. An Industry bonus makes a lot more sense for Planned than a Growth bonus, for one. Additionally, Support reflects a society's ability to field an army, which seems to me related more towards a society's values and political choices than its economic ones. I kept the reduction in the Growth bonus to make pop-booming harder.

For Green, I increased the Industry penalty but removed the Economy penalty, which really ground to a halt anyone's economy who used it. It seems to me a bit political to be making Green such a weak choice compared to the others, and on the modified version it really only had military application for planet-warrior strategies. --Industry sufficiently reflects Green hesitancy towards development, I think.

For Wealth, your changes really made Wealth the old Free Market without the drone problems. Penalties to Support and Morale are much less significant--you can still wage war effectively with --Morale, and ---Support is made irrelevant by Clean Reactors (always something to remember when using Support penalties). Instead, I reduced the Economy bonus and the Support and Morale penalties to one each, which makes Wealth synergize nicely with Free Market but otherwise be a minor choice. I'm a little hesitant here as the new Wealth is probably weak, but I'm unsure what else to do with it.

For the Future Societies, I mostly cut the penalties. I also scaled back Eudaimonic a bit, and got rid of the Planet bonus (which really doesn't make any sense) in favor of a bonus to Support. I would have restored the Industry bonus, but that also makes sense with Cybernetic, and I didn't want two FS SE choices to have the same bonus.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 24, 2013, 05:25:19 AM

I'll try and keep the discussion about a theoretical faction with no pluses or minuses.  But it's good to keep in mind how up to -/+ 2 of each SE might impact the SE re-work.

I will say +ECON is about the hardest thing to re-balance, because +2 ECON is such a huge increase compared to any other SE.  Ideally I wish ECON was just a % modifier to all energy (or economy allocated energy) and commerce rather than a per square bonus. 


Democratic:
The problem with giving Democratic -3 POLICE is, yea then no P-drones for most factions.  I tried +2 GROWTH, +2 EFFIC, -5 POLICE but then it seemed a bit weak.  I agree ++TALENT is excessive.  I think +TALENT is required or Demo isn't really usable until the mid-game.  On Transcend, your second drone always riots and this was the reasoning to giving it +TALENT.  For the +2 ECON FM, you could allocate PSYCH but Democracy doesn't give the Energy to do that.  So I was finding it got outclassed by Police State / Fundamentalist.

Also note the biggest point of Demo (getting to +6 GROWTH easy) is gone with hitting Planned's +GROWTH.  With this setup a faction needs +1 GROWTH and both Demo/Planned available to do the non-GA or 'easy' pop-boom.  Granted this also has the effect of *having* to run Demo to pop-boom pre-CV/Eud.  I also considered putting Demo down to just +1 GROWTH and that might be possible.

I'm thinking something like:
++GROWTH, ++EFFIC, ---POLICE; OR
++GROWTH, ++EFFIC, +TALENT, -----POLICE


Fundamentalist:
++MORALE, ++PROBE, --RESEARCH is probably fine.  It's a pretty steep cut to your teching rate.  If your morale is at a base of 0, it's only +2 MORALE on defense.  Admittedly it does become a lot more powerful paired with Power and/or Thought Control - or even to counteract -MORALE.

Free Market:
Ideally I wanted each SE choice to be compelling on its own and not only paired with certain others.  The reason for this is because if you set an Aversion, the pairing then also becomes useless.  I think unfortunately giving it and Wealth both +1 ECON make it so they have to be paired or they're otherwise weak (unless you have +1 ECON as noted).  But pairing them would give ++ECON, ---PLANET, -SUPPORT, -MORALE which is probably a little low on the downsides (granted its 2 SEs).  For the same reason it was hard to have Green at -2 ECON because it negated Wealth.  Not that those ideologies usually go together but still.  Similar was the problem of +3 and above ECON not being much better than +2.

Note that --TALENT isn't -2 Talents; it's +2 Drones per base. With the Drone fixes Yitzi put in that really stings and is a strong downside.  Granted DRONES/TALENTS per X would be ideal but flat isn't *too* bad until that's patched in.  --TALENT of course means that it can't be used early on unless you have a good POLICE rating.  And that's really the issue with it.

---PLANET has to stay for Free Market.  I'm not sure that +ECONOMY is enough that I'd ever pick it on its own unless a +1 ECON faction like Morgan.  Losing to Mindworms is pretty bad, not only the unit but the free Energy.  Maybe +ECONOMY, +INDUSTRY, ---PLANET would be a little better.  I'm not sure what else it could get.


Planned:
+GROWTH,  ++INDUSTRY, --EFFIC I think is fine thematically.  It's pretty much swapping +1 GROWTH for +1 INDUSTRY from the base.

Green:
Another SE that is really hard to balance.  ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC, --INDUSTRY is probably fine.  It would help to take down Green a bit more late and boost it early.  Later in the game --ECON is insignificant but --INDUSTRY remains so.  --INDUSTRY is also hurtful early - I'd argue it's a bit worse than --GROWTH is now (which isn't really a logical penalty).  Yea while part of being Green is sustainable population increase, it's not like there's a lot of humans on Chiron like on Earth.

Wealth:
Ah what to do here?  It ties in with Free Market really.  I had the thought of keeping Wealth at the extreme +2 ECON but giving it harsher downsides.  Maybe it's more the pursuit of Wealth that creates discontent rather than Free Market?
Perhaps ++ECONOMY, --POLICE, --MORALE, --TALENT?  There's a lot that could fit in here, --SUPPORT would too.

Cybernetic:
I think its a lot stronger than the other 2 Future SEs.  Mostly because ---PROBE isnt really that detrimental.  But also because +IND/EFF/RES are three of the top late-game SEs.  Thematically it makes sense but I was thinking perhaps it should get -3 SUPPORT instead (there's no -SUPPORT SE, also pairing it with Knowledge is a bit too good).  The extra machines would require more mineral upkeep?  Not too sure if thats too much of a stretch.  Alternatively Knowledge could have a different penalty (-ECONOMY or -MORALE).  Probe to me is more about the conversion side than susceptibility to knowledge theft.  At least when you consider it's Fundamentalism/Thought Control that get the +PROBE.

Eudaimonic:
I had +Planet with Eudaimonic because of a lot of the later thematics with the Gaians.  They give the impressions that Planet is more favoring to a Utopian society than a more oppressive one, but +3 PLANET is maybe overkill.  I don't think Support really fits...it's a Utopian society.  Granted this would be another candidate for +TALENTS/X - but lategame Talents aren't that helpful.  Note that by removing the +2 PLANET on Cyber (which didn't really make sense, perhaps machines pollute less but thats a real stretch) there's no way to hit +3 for minimum Eco Damage.  I find that usually later in the game +GROWTH/+ECON/+SUPPORT aren't that great, which is when you get Eudaimonic.  Reason is a lot of tech is from specialists and ECON past +2 doesn't really compare.  Only in the case of being friendly with a lot of factions late does the commerce seem to keep up.  +2 ECON would be good to replace Wealth with a lesser penalty.  I'll have to think a bit more on Eud although honestly the late game SEs don't matter too much with the current state of the game.

Thought Control
Yea I actually ended up doing the same.  -5 RESEARCH was a bit too harsh.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Kilkakon on September 24, 2013, 05:34:51 AM

Just a small note on TALENT: if Yitzi has changed how it works, remember that only 40% of us are using his work, which would change its impact as a result.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 24, 2013, 01:34:13 PM

Does swapping Growth for Morale on Fundamentalism/Democratic make thematic sense?  In more modern societies Fundamentalist has high population growth from big families.  Democratic, I don't think Morale would be a real stretch either.  But its a bit strange to give Morale to a SE with -POLICE.  I suppose Democratic would then fight well but only defensively?

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: LastConformist on September 26, 2013, 12:00:24 AM

Quote from: Nexii on September 24, 2013, 01:34:13 PM

Does swapping Growth for Morale on Fundamentalism/Democratic make thematic sense?  In more modern societies Fundamentalist has high population growth from big families.  Democratic, I don't think Morale would be a real stretch either.  But its a bit strange to give Morale to a SE with -POLICE.  I suppose Democratic would then fight well but only defensively?

The flavor of Morale is better-trained soldiers. While that doesn't fit perfectly with Fundamentalist (much more with Power and Thought Control), it doesn't fit at all with Democratic. Growth wouldn't be a bad bonus for Fundamentalist, but Morale and Probe make more sense IMO, especially as Fundamentalist has to fill the early offensive warfare niche. (Power comes too late for that.)

For Democracy, I think -5 Police is just too devastating to balance without using Talent. If you're using Talent, that's fine, and you could do ++GROWTH, ++EFFICIENCY, ++TALENT, -----POLICE. I think I'd like to avoid Talent and try to balance the SE choices in different ways (because it doesn't show up, and also for the reasons Kilkanon stated), in which case anything more than ---POLICE is probably too much for Democracy. I think the other -2 could be worked into Wealth without trouble, though (over Support or Morale, and restoring its +INDUSTRY).

One thought on Free Market: What if the Efficiency penalty were switched from Planned to Free Market, and Planned were given an Economy penalty instead? That definitely makes thematic sense with Planned, better IMO than an efficiency penalty (Planned economies should be no worse off being large, but overall lower-achieving than Free Market or Green economies).  The efficiency penalty in Free Market then reflects the difficulty of redistributing resources in a market from wealthy bases at the center of your empire to poorer bases on the periphery and of controlling market failures. Flavorfully it's not perfect, but it could work.

Thus:

Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, --EFFICIENCY, ---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, ++GROWTH,  ++INDUSTRY, --ECONOMY (added another Growth because --ECONOMY is really bad)
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC, --INDUSTRY

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Dio on September 26, 2013, 12:06:19 AM

Quote from: LastConformist on September 26, 2013, 12:00:24 AM

Quote from: Nexii on September 24, 2013, 01:34:13 PM

Does swapping Growth for Morale on Fundamentalism/Democratic make thematic sense?  In more modern societies Fundamentalist has high population growth from big families.  Democratic, I don't think Morale would be a real stretch either.  But its a bit strange to give Morale to a SE with -POLICE.  I suppose Democratic would then fight well but only defensively?

The flavor of Morale is better-trained soldiers. While that doesn't fit perfectly with Fundamentalist (much more with Power and Thought Control), it doesn't fit at all with Democratic. Growth wouldn't be a bad bonus for Fundamentalist, but Morale and Probe make more sense IMO, especially as Fundamentalist has to fill the early offensive warfare niche. (Power comes too late for that.)

For Democracy, I think -5 Police is just too devastating to balance without using Talent. If you're using Talent, that's fine, and you could do ++GROWTH, ++EFFICIENCY, ++TALENT, -----POLICE. I think I'd like to avoid Talent and try to balance the SE choices in different ways (because it doesn't show up, and also for the reasons Kilkanon stated), in which case anything more than ---POLICE is probably too much for Democracy. I think the other -2 could be worked into Wealth without trouble, though (over Support or Morale, and restoring its +INDUSTRY).

One thought on Free Market: What if the Efficiency penalty were switched from Planned to Free Market, and Planned were given an Economy penalty instead? That definitely makes thematic sense with Planned, better IMO than an efficiency penalty (Planned economies should be no worse off being large, but overall lower-achieving than Free Market or Green economies).  The efficiency penalty in Free Market then reflects the difficulty of redistributing resources in a market from wealthy bases at the center of your empire to poorer bases on the periphery and of controlling market failures. Flavorfully it's not perfect, but it could work.

Thus:

Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, --EFFICIENCY, ---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, ++GROWTH,  ++INDUSTRY, --ECONOMY (added another Growth because --ECONOMY is really bad)
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC, --INDUSTRY

On the effect of talents, I hope you only mean how drones and talents work right. As far as I know, Yitzi has not done anything to change the effect of the Social talent catergory.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Sigma on September 26, 2013, 12:09:50 AM

Hitting Free Market with an efficiency penalty like that is sort of counterproductive though, since the main issue with negative efficiency is that it cuts into your income the larger your empire gets. +Economy and -Efficiency almost offset one another.

A better option if you don't want a Police penalty is negative Support. The philosophy behind Free Market's penalties is that it makes you incredibly productive at the expense of your ability to field an army. This version would make it serve the same purpose in a different way.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: JarlWolf on September 26, 2013, 12:12:09 AM

Whenever I think fundamentalist and growth bonuses... I just imagine this.

Every Sperm is Sacred (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk#)

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: LastConformist on September 26, 2013, 12:13:15 AM

Quote from: Sigma on September 26, 2013, 12:09:50 AM

Hitting Free Market with an efficiency penalty like that is sort of counterproductive though, since the main issue with negative efficiency is that it cuts into your income the larger your empire gets. +Economy and -Efficiency almost offset one another.

A better option if you don't want a Police penalty is negative Support. The philosophy behind Free Market's penalties is that it makes you incredibly productive at the expense of your ability to field an army. This version would make it serve the same purpose in a different way.

I agree, though that was (sort of) the point. A Police penalty offsets the Economy bonus in a roundabout way, too, since you're forced to run a higher percentage of your income to Psych to offset the Drones. Support would be a great penalty, except that it becomes all but irrelevant once Bio-Engineering is researched, which might make Free Market too strong later in the game. Though perhaps it wouldn't, since the Efficiency of Green often makes it better later on anyway. And Support penalties are even worse than Police early, since they affect defenders, Formers, Colony Pods, etc.

++ECONOMY, ----SUPPORT, ---PLANET might well work.

Title: Re: Original 7 & SE settings remix
Post by: Nexii on September 26, 2013, 05:52:34 AM

Democracy at +2 GROWTH, +2 EFFIC, -3 POLICE would be pretty bad.  I couldn't see it really getting used over PS or Fund.  Anything with -POLICE pretty much requires +TALENT or +ECON to counterbalance.  Police State is pretty good after the Drone fixes.  Hitting +3 POLICE pretty much means the end of all drone problems.  Early on ++ TALENT is like 2 free police units, but keep in mind this benefit doesn't scale up.   Once NLM is available ++TALENT is only equivalent to POLICE 0 for pacifying.  And it's worse in the case of conquering or large empire size since Police units can crush superdrones.

To me using +/- TALENT isn't a big deal if it fits thematically.  There's a lot of Faction bonuses used that are invisible once you're in game.  You just have to keep them in mind.


I'm going to do a few games with the following (and base factions) to see how it plays out:

Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC,
Democratic,      EthCalc, ++TALENT, ++EFFIC, +GROWTH, -----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++PROBE, ++MORALE, --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, ----SUPPORT, ---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, +GROWTH,   ++INDUSTRY, --ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC,  --INDUSTRY
Survival,        None,
Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,   ++SUPPORT, -INDUSTRY,
Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC,    --PROBE,
Wealth,          IndAuto, +ECONOMY, +INDUSTRY, --MORALE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      DigSent, +INDUSTRY, ++EFFIC, ++RESEARCH, --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH, ++ECONOMY, ++PLANET, --MORALE,
Thought Control, WillPow, +++POLICE, +++MORALE,  +++PROBE, ---RESEARCH

In the end not a lot got drastic changes.  Demo/FM were sort of swapped in penalties.  Planned I'd say that -2 ECON isn't quite the penalty you think it is.  Hive seems really popular in MP games and has this has a penalty.  However, I am going to try -2 ECON for planned because then it stays relevant all game (-1 energy a base isn't much late).  On the other hand Free Market gets better with Clean and Green gets better as EFFIC and PLANET both are really good later on.  Also Planned/Wealth is really good in this SE set, something to consider.

There are a lot of new FM combinations which might be a bit strong (PS and POWER both negate half the -SUPPORT).  -4 SUPPORT SE is a lot worse than being at -2 SUPPORT SE.