Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Earthmichael on September 11, 2013, 08:54:21 PM

Title: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 11, 2013, 08:54:21 PM

Sometimes I do not have an even number of terraformers doing a task, for example, I will have 3 formers planting a Forest that needs 4 turns.  So on the second turn, all of the formers will blank out.  However, since I only needed 1 more forming turn for that second turn, the other two formers can be activated and given other orders.  (The first former will not activate, because it already acted this turn giving you the 4th turn on your Forest.)

Anyway, some might see this as a violation of the activating formers rule, but I do not.  Those two formers have done absolutely nothing on that second turn, so I definitely should be able to give them something to do.  And I do.

I have to say, I don't understand the rule about activating greyed out formers; I never have.  If a former had done something that turn, I do not know of any way to get the former to do something else that turn.  If the former has not done anything (because the first former or two finished the terraforming, and all of the other formers were effectively idle), then I click on the formers.  The ones that did work that turn do not activate, and the rest do.  I think it is perfectly fair to send those idle formers on to other jobs.

What is your thinking here?  Am I missing something?

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Geo on September 11, 2013, 09:18:08 PM

I *think* sofar the formers that haven't worked in a turn always start blinking before the turn ends. At least in single player, and with Scient's/Yitzi's patch.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Droom on September 11, 2013, 10:58:35 PM

I may be wrong, and I have not tested this, but I do believe that if you go to the city screen that the former calls home, click on it's icon, it will activate. I works for control + H and other commands after a unit has moved.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 12, 2013, 03:11:56 AM

Quote from: Geo on September 11, 2013, 09:18:08 PM

I *think* sofar the formers that haven't worked in a turn always start blinking before the turn ends. At least in single player, and with Scient's/Yitzi's patch.

If you have a bunch for formers doing something, so that they have a command, like building a mine, instead of using just the numbers of formers needed to finish the mine, and blinking the rest, all of the formers get seemingly used.  Like the example I gave earlier with 3 formers building a 4 turn Forest, on the 2nd turn, two of the formers will have done nothing, and can be directly clicked and given orders.  The formers that did something that turn will not accept being clicked on and will not accept any new orders.

Does that make more sense now?

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 12, 2013, 03:19:05 AM

Quote from: Droom on September 11, 2013, 10:58:35 PM

I may be wrong, and I have not tested this, but I do believe that if you go to the city screen that the former calls home, click on it's icon, it will activate. I works for control + H and other commands after a unit has moved.

I was not aware of the "city screen" activation.  That may indeed be an exploit, but I am not aware of it.

I am just talking about the straightforward case where you click on a former, and give it orders for the turn.

The greying out of "unused" formers only occurs when they are "on the bandwagon", i.e. the were terraforming something that got finished before they had a need to help, and instead of just blinking the formers, as the game should do, since they did nothing that turn, they just grey out like all of the rest.

The only difference is you can directly click on the formers that did not do anything that turn and give them orders.  If you click on a former that did something that turn, nothing happens.

This is something that might be a candidate for a bug fix.

I am just making people aware that they can give commands to formers that did not act that turn (like the 3 formers building a forest example, where you have 2 formers left on the second turn).  I am not talking about clicking on the icon in a city, or anything like that.  If there is an exploit like that, I don't really want to know about it.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: JarlWolf on September 12, 2013, 04:57:28 AM

I wasn't even aware that this sort of rule existed, let alone it was an exploit. I guess I am too old and lazy to notice whats actually a bug as opposed whats part of the actual game.  ;lol

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 12, 2013, 05:01:43 PM

I've been thinking about this issue as it is certainly more tricky than it looks. Your point is definitely reasonable, but after some deliberation I'm leaning currently slightly against it.

First, let's start with saying that without any doubt you don't exploit the referred bug. This bug works for any former and it goes like this: click on a greyed out former and tell it to build e.g. a farm. It will immediately start and display correctly 5 turns*. Now click on it again. Voila, the former cancels its orders and regains one movement point.

* I think I saw '4' once.


I'm quite certain there is no exploit you can use through the city screen. At least I wasn't able to replicate any. Clicking on a unit in the 'support' screen closes the base screen and centers the map on that unit, that's basically it.

However, I've never played like you as it is my opinion that losing all former moves on a given tile is a part of the design. Simply put, it's "waste" and it appears in many games (Age of Empires) where several peasants can work on one building at once: two guys are never twice as fast as one guy.

I believe that waste does take place in SMAC - consider a condenser which is worth 8 formerturns, but 3 formers will be doing one for 3 turns each. You could counter this argument that it's not waste, but simple rounding up where rounding is needed. To that I can only reply that it *feels* to me like an element of the designers' scheme.


That being said, perhaps I should mention here that when I move my crawler and it runs out of mp, I always activate it to make it crawl on the very same turn. I consider this a [poop]y interface, not an actual game rule. So there is that.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Geo on September 12, 2013, 05:22:21 PM

Oh, I'm not the only one whose [recycled] posts are edited. ;cute

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 12, 2013, 05:32:44 PM

Sorry, I thought the filter is only for google indexing purposes and I'm outsmarting Web spiders by the exclamation mark. ;)

Will remember in the future.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2013, 05:52:55 PM

We have young people and folks who don't want to see bad language, and there are limits.  Thanks for calling attention, Geo. ;sarc

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Geo on September 12, 2013, 07:45:36 PM

The First Amendment must be observed at all times.  ;goofy;

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Lord Avalon on September 12, 2013, 10:50:51 PM

I don't think it's an exploit.  If a former didn't actually do anything, why shouldn't it be available to use?  I would like it if the game would show it active.  I probably have reactivated falsely inactive formers, not because I remember which square has excess former-turns, but just because I happen to check that stack.  I've played a lot of huge maps, so end up with a few to several dozen formers, and have also probably left potentially available former-turns unused.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 12, 2013, 11:00:59 PM

I think the ideal solution would be if it were possible to patch so that formers that were not needed to complete the operation get reset to the waiting orders state, to make it clear they are available, rather than the current default of being greyed out.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 12, 2013, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: Lord Avalon on September 12, 2013, 10:50:51 PM

I probably have reactivated falsely inactive formers, not because I remember which square has excess former-turns, but just because I happen to check that stack.

Wait a minute guys, let's make this thing clear. What do you two actually do in-game, in terms of mouse clicks and orders? At first I understood that EM opens his turn, finds a tile with excessive former-turns and clicks on the excessive units before they get inactive. We can now discuss it if it's ok or not. But if you activate already greyed-out formers, you need to do that through the way I referred to above, which is a clear rule violation to me. I'm sorry, but I can't condone any exploit of a well-known bug on arbitrary grounds, "because I think it's really ok this time". You may put yourself at a serious turn advantage over players who don't do the same, me including. So let's discuss that and post it somewhere in the Command Nexus section. Whatever the outcome, MP players need to know that.

As for clicking units before they use their movement, it all boils down to the issue if you support or don't the idea of "inefficiency" of former-turns. Personally, I think it's fair, reasonable and logical that one former uses 8 turns per condenser, but 3 formers work 3 turns. It's clearly there in the game when you use multiple formers, the total number of former-turns often increases. So I think I would vote for that, although I acknowledge the other point of view as perfectly valid. However, clicking inactive units to give and cancel another order is off the table in my opinion.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 12, 2013, 11:38:36 PM

Consider a situation I'm sure we're all too familiar with:

I put a sea former on a sea fungus tile and start to remove it. Then I open the next turn, only to see that on an adjacent sea fungus tile there is an IOD. So before I make any other move, I can cancel the removal order and try to escape with 1 movement point. But if I toggled through all my units and the sea former in question got greyed out, then it's my bad and my loss. No activation is possible and the former is going down.

Just you know, to make sure we're on the same page here.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 13, 2013, 12:11:39 AM

As much as I would like to remain blissfully ignorant, I don't that the exploit is, or how to use it, so I can't tell how close my suggestion is to a grey area.

To me, there is nothing exploitive in what I do.  Take a stack of formers that had been working on something.  Click on the bottom former (the one most likely to have done nothing that turn).  If it activates, give it an order.  Repeat with the next former up the line, until you reach a former than does not activate.  Stop here, because none of the formers above will activate either, and you are just wasting your time.

The reason I see no exploit here, is if the former has already done something, clicking on it cannot activate it.  It is only the case where the former actually did not do anything where clicking the former activates it for new orders.

I presume an actual exploit would allow you to activate a former that has already built, to get a second turn out of the former.  I don't know how to do that, and don't want to know.  But there has to be some separation between clicking on formers where the only ones who will activate are the ones that did not work that turn, verses figuring out a way to get double duty out of a former.

I still don't see the problem of clicking on a former, and if it activates, give it an order.  If it does not activate, it has built this turn.

In the IOD case, try to cancel all of the orders before anyone builds anything, and then flee!  But if the former has already built before you got a chance to cancel, you are out of luck.  Because even if you click on it again, it still will not activate if it already built that turn.

BTW, one of my strategies in my roads for terraforming strategy guide is to pre-built roads, then send packs of formers just the right size to build what you want.  Then every turn, advance 1 or 2 squares down the road and build.  A 4 pack of formers building forest can build a forest every turn in this manner as long as the road is being built ahead of them.  This allows the most efficient possible use of your formers, and you never have any "left over" formers because the pack should be sized to whatever terrain feature is being built.  Some people wonder why I build roads everywhere, but it makes the terraforming that comes afterwards much more efficient.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 13, 2013, 12:37:22 AM

Yes, that seems valid to me. What raised my doubts was Lord Avalon saying that he activates already inactive formers, which can be only done through this exploit. But I'm sure he does it the same you do.

It is a very interesting thing and I've never thought of even looking at it, assuming the game wants all the formers to grey out for a reason, plus I didn't want to break any rule even involuntarily (the list of bugs is really long and includes many exploit to get additional movement - that air drop thing, upgrade via the upgrade screen, etc.).

However, it still can net you quite a nice turn advantage so we have to decide either way and bring it to attention of all MP players. Let's see what other people think about it. I'm still in two minds, but the most important issue is that we all agree one way or another.

As to terraforming tips - a road network is obviously crucial, it's the first thing I do when entering a new tile (especially since roads are more expensive after you build a forest). But I don't move my formers in hordes until mid-game, before the most essential tiles are terraformed for most bases. I prefer to steadily terraform each base with 1-2 formers for a start. And as I said, I was utterly convinced that there is this terraform inefficiency! Now I may reconsider. ;)

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Lord Avalon on September 13, 2013, 01:18:54 AM

Quote from: Kirov on September 13, 2013, 12:37:22 AM

Yes, that seems valid to me. What raised my doubts was Lord Avalon saying that he activates already inactive formers, which can be only done through this exploit.

I said "falsely inactive formers," meaning formers that showed inactive but hadn't done anything.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Nexii on September 13, 2013, 07:11:33 PM

This might or might not be related (and known).  I've used a similar mechanic to convoy resources from a supply crawler that has expended all its moves.  By default the game moves onto the next unit in the cycle.  But you can select it manually (sometimes having to go to the city screen rather than the map).  It makes me curious what was intended.

On topic though should a terraformer even be allowed to cancel its orders?  I had the thought that one easier fix might involve just disallowing this in general.  It's a bit strange to consider that you could build 15/16ths of a borehole, and cancel it on the last turn with nothing built.  Although this might be equally frustrating, causing more formers to get sacked by Mind Worms and enemy units due to being locked in.

Edit: I believe this type of cycling behavior often applies to air units as well.  Where by default putting an air unit in a city, cycles you to the next unit.  But you can go back and select it to move further.  Or to attack from the city and land in the same turn without crashing (thereby attacking on your return flight as well as outgoing).

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 14, 2013, 03:56:24 AM

It has always been OK to move a supply crawler, and then set the resource to crawl.

The reason I advocate pack terraforming with appropriate size packs is that you don't even have worry about underutilized formers.  If I have prebuilt a road network, I can set a pack of 4 formers down the road generating a Forest every single turn.  Then I don't have to bother to check if I have underutilized formers; I get full value from the formers, as long as whatever I build is a multiple of 4.   Three formers is an odd number unless you have Weather Paradigm with respect to Forest.  Unless you do something to deal with the inefficiency, the you are just as well off with a pack of 2 formers.  Your 3rd former is totally wasted for this effort.

Sometimes, particularly when dealing with rising water, you just pile on all of the formers in the vicinity to save your city by raising land.  There it can be particularly useful to figure out who built that turn, and who did not, so you can raise more land faster.

Anyway, I don't know what the exploit actually is, but I would like to get general agreement that activating a former that has not done anything that turn by clicking directly on it is an acceptable strategy and not a cheat, and for people to optimize their games if they like by thinking about this.  And for maximum optimization, read my article Road to Terraforming.  I am a super strong believer in road networks, and I am certain I get full value for my roads for terraforming, crawler movement, worm defense, active defense, etc.  I generally only build magtubes directly between cities unless I have a feature I need a magtube to reach (like an energy farm), because too many magtubes create defensive vulnerabilities.  Having heavily defended cities as choke points helps keep your tubes from being used against you.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 17, 2013, 08:58:48 PM

Can you guys submit an example of such a situation? Both when you start to group-former some tile and when you're about to click that former?

I'm paying close attention to this issue now and I must say I can't copy this behaviour. Simply put, my game seems to work exactly as EM would like it to, i.e. any non-working formers are ready to go immediately.

I can describe 2 situations from my most recent SP game:

1) Former1 is foresting in turn 1 and says it has 3t more to go (not greyed out yet). F2 joins and helps, now both say "2t to go" (and both get greyed out). On the next turn, after the round of terraforming, the forest is ready, F2 is greyed out and F1 is ready. So I'm counting that and get the result of 4 former-turns.

2) Three formers arrive at a tile in the same turn. They all start to forest and say "2t to go". However, on the next turn, after the round of terraforming, the forest is ready, one former is greyed out and 2 are ready to work more. Again, 4 former-turns poured into the forest and no waste.

Am I missing something here?

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Yitzi on September 24, 2013, 05:06:44 AM

In my experience also, the formers that weren't needed don't use up their turns...

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 24, 2013, 10:33:47 AM

Quote from: Kirov on September 17, 2013, 08:58:48 PM

Can you guys submit an example of such a situation? Both when you start to group-former some tile and when you're about to click that former?

I'm paying close attention to this issue now and I must say I can't copy this behaviour. Simply put, my game seems to work exactly as EM would like it to, i.e. any non-working formers are ready to go immediately.

I can describe 2 situations from my most recent SP game:

1) Former1 is foresting in turn 1 and says it has 3t more to go (not greyed out yet). F2 joins and helps, now both say "2t to go" (and both get greyed out). On the next turn, after the round of terraforming, the forest is ready, F2 is greyed out and F1 is ready. So I'm counting that and get the result of 4 former-turns.

2) Three formers arrive at a tile in the same turn. They all start to forest and say "2t to go". However, on the next turn, after the round of terraforming, the forest is ready, one former is greyed out and 2 are ready to work more. Again, 4 former-turns poured into the forest and no waste.

Am I missing something here?

What version/patch are you using?  I have 3 different installations, all now based on GOG, with different patches.  But all 3 of mine behave just like I described.

In my games in all 3 test directories, all of the 3 formers that were allocated to the forest grey out when the forest in completed the second turn.  I find that to be true of any building project where I have allocated the resources in prior turns, any excess just grey out after the build is complete.  It sounds like your version is behaving like I think it should, with the unneeded formers requesting new orders.  This is exactly what I want!  This is much more convenient than trying to remember to click on a former and see if it will activate.  How can I replicate your installation?

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 25, 2013, 07:01:07 PM

I checked 7 GOG copies and 2 pirates on three machines, both SMAC and SMAX, and everywhere the formers behave as I described (and Yitzi confirmed). So at first I thought this may be a patch issue and you either forgot to apply the XP update or use the old GOG version, which was not patched at the beginning. To test this, I downloaded a pirate copy of SMAC only, version 1.0.i of January 1998. Yet again, there is no waste of former turns, so it seems like an element of the design from the very beginning. You may want to triple-check and reinstall your copies, and if the problem persists - report it here.

Can anyone else confirm this behaviour? It's just a matter of a few clicks, so please help. Hit 'Quick start', then 'Ctrl+K" (open the editor), then 'Shift+F1' three times (make 3 formers), then 'Ctr+K' (close the editor) and tell the formers to make a forest. On the next turn, toggle through your active units and check how many formers are still active after the forest is done. My copies say 2 of them, EM's - 0.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 25, 2013, 08:36:31 PM

I did Kirov's experiment, and it worked just as he said.  The 2 Formers we automatically ready for orders the next turn.

So now I am going to look for and post a save from a non-current game, that shows the greying out of excess formers.  I am not sure what accounts for the difference.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 25, 2013, 09:00:04 PM

I looked at a couple of multiplayer saves.  It seems to only happen in multiplayer games, and since I am not playing much of anything of that multiplayer games, I did not realize it was a multiplayer game behavior.

Does anyone experience this in their multiplayer games?  Otherwise, I will try to create an experiment like what Kirov did, but with a multiplayer game, and see what happens.

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Earthmichael on September 25, 2013, 09:33:07 PM

I just did a multiplayer experiment, creating my own hotseat test game, and sure enough, after creating the forest, two formers were ready for new orders.  I posted the hotseat game, but it does just what Kirov described for the single player; it simply illustrates the problem does not normally exist, even in multiplayer.

Unless other people are experiencing this, I guess we should just drop it. 

Does anyone else experience Formers beyond what are needed to finish a project greying out?

Title: Re: Taking advantage of surplus formers when completing a task
Post by: Kirov on September 27, 2013, 03:47:02 PM

Yep, I created a test MP scenario and no surprises there, either.