Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 01:30:11 AM

Title: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 01:30:11 AM
amIrigh'?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 01:32:13 AM
You've stumped me.

-Wait; the Alan Moore thing?  Yeah, no.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 12:54:48 PM
Smax is a character in Alan Moore's TOP TEN.  If you haven't read TOP TEN, you really should.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 03:13:56 PM
[a memory clicks into place]

Hey, a couple of weeks ago, I finally read the first collection of Astro City.  I found myself disappointed, somehow.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 03:17:42 PM
ASTRO CITY is not Moore.  And I find it disappointing, too.  But I have a hard time separating the personal from the objective with Kurt, so, you know.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 03:20:07 PM
Yeah, I know.  Maybe when my brain's working, I'll be able to articulate it...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 03:48:03 PM
For me, at least with issue 1, I couldn't read any single panel without being forcibly reminded of some other panel in some other comic where whatever it was that Kurt was doing, at that moment with that character, had been done before by some better writer with some better character. 

That's the major problem I have with ASTRO CITY... it is ENTIRELY derivative.  Every character is based on some other character.   Every storyline is derived from work done by other people.  It's like, Kurt wanted to do stories with characters he did not have access to, so he created ASTRO CITY so he could do all these stories. 

A lot of people have no problem with that.  It bothers me, though. 

Beyond that, though, most of the stories I've read are just.... mediocre. 

Kurt's best work remains JLA/Avengers.  He did a fantastic job with that.

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 03:58:13 PM
I did like that one.

-Though he missed a trick.  When it got to those cute JLA/Avengers annual meetings, there was a reference by Wonder Woman to Cap going back to the All-Star Squadron/Invader reunions, right?  Why not Wonder Woman, too?  Not bound by continuity at that point, so why not?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 04:01:47 PM
I'm having SERIOUS trouble with my internet this morning, which is why I'm being so sluggish responding...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 04:17:04 PM
I did like that one.

-Though he missed a trick.  When it got to those cute JLA/Avengers annual meetings, there was a reference by Wonder Woman to Cap going back to the All-Star Squadron/Invader reunions, right?  Why not Wonder Woman, too?  Not bound by continuity at that point, so why not?

Because she's just a GURL, silly. 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 04:17:46 PM
Oh.  Silly me.

...

'Cause it's funny...

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/line8-2-10-620x879.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 04:25:31 PM
Sure.  But Cap could kick every single imposter's ass all day long. 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 04:30:04 PM
Wha'd ya think of the Watchmen movie?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 05:06:56 PM
Enjoyed it until the climax/ending.  They changed way too much of the ending for absolutely no reason I could understand at all.  But the fight scene between Ozymandius and the Comedian was awesome.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 05:15:31 PM
...The ending in the original was weak, to be fair, and if ever a story demanded a non-matrixed style for the fight scenes, it's Watchmen.  The fights in the book were ugly, by design, because violence is.  I think it would be hard to miss the point of something harder than that.

Also, their Ozzy was just plain bad.  Completely miscast, and completely off-model.

The Silhouette was hot, though.

I didn't HATE it, but I went in with low expectations.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
I was surprised.  Leading up to the movie, I saw the guy who was supposed to play Ozymandius and found him completely unconvincing.  But in the film itself, I thought he nailed the part.

I didn't mind the slo mo fight scenes.  I thought they worked pretty well.  Although we seem to have lost track somewhere of the fact that the characters have no super strength and shouldn't be punching holes in stone walls.

I wish they had let Dan be fat, though.   And I just wish they'd kept more of the source material.

The original ending to WATCHMEN is weak and contrived... when the series first came out, there was like six months between issue 11 and issue 12, and in that time, I speculated that what was going to happen was, Ozymandius' scheme was going to actually set off the global war he was trying to prevent (he's contrived to put America and Russia at each other's throats, one minute away from doomsday, and then he sets off a gigantic explosion in New York City?  Are you kidding me?  Tricky Dick is going to hit that button so fast he'll sprain his wrist). 

So I thought the way the book would end is, the only people left alive on the planet are the small group of superheroes gathered at Ozymandias retreat on the South Pole. 

Irony.

Moore's never been much for irony, though.

I hated the fact that the big scene where the group of artists from the island got blown up was left out. 
(Moore stole that scene, like he stole most of WATCHMEN's plot, from WILD CARD by Raymond Hawkey and Roger Bingham, although in WILD CARD it's a planeload of scientists getting shot down to protect the security of a secret government project to fake an alien attack.) 

And a bunch of other stuff.

But, you know, for what it was, it was okay.

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
Hearty agreement with that last sentence.

Am I the only one who clocked Rorschach as the "End is Nigh" guy instantly?  I bet not.  I was looking for Ozzy to turn out to be the bad guy by the forth or fifth issue, too. 

It was a great comic, but hardly perfect, much as we all loved it, and still do.  Rubber costumes and matrix fights for the move, however, were decidedly not an improvement.

I read somewhere someone complaining about Rorschach's hacksaw scene being changed for the movie - as if they could have gotten away with using something Moore blatantly lifted from MAD MAX.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 06:24:35 PM
They could have.  Only you and remember MAD MAX or ROAD WARRIOR these days.  Sad but true.

It was an interesting comic with much to answer for.  It singlehandedly launched the entire "let's do comics that are mini movies" paradigm, and pretty much  heralded the death of expository captions and thought balloons.

Moore's plot was, first,  largely stolen, and second, where he patched it to fit superhero tropes instead of political thriller tropes, nonsensical.  The Keene Police Strike makes no sense in a world where there were never more than a half dozen superheroes at one time, and, when the Police Strike occurs, the only heroes active are Nightowl, Rorschach, and the second Silk Spectre.  But the Keene Police Strike is vital to the way that world unfolds, with its ongoing suspicion and  hatred of masked vigilantes.

I see what Moore was trying to do there, and it would have made sense in the Marvel or DC Universe (not so much in the Charlton Universe, which had much fewer supercharacters).  But Moore's decision to (a) get rid of super powers completely, so as to focus on the characters' humanity, and (b) limit the number of masked heroes drastically, to limit the scope of the comic... really undermined the points he was trying to make about superhero comics in general.

Mostly, though, what WATCHMEN proves is that you simply cannot do grown up superhero comics.  The superhero concept is intrinsically, inherently, essentially, and irretrievably childish... and that's not a bad thing.  For more on this, I refer you to my articles on this subject:

http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/hey-kids-comics-part-i.html (http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/hey-kids-comics-part-i.html)

http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/hey-kids-comics-part-ii.html (http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/hey-kids-comics-part-ii.html)

http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/hey-kids-comics-part-iii.html (http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/hey-kids-comics-part-iii.html)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 06:43:36 PM
Yeah; are you familiar with The Hooded Utilitarian?  Those guy seem to all come from the Comics Journal school of criticism, and while they often have interesting insights, they, of course, really hate capes.  Within TCJ-approved areas like Kirby and Watchmen that it's okay to like in  those circles, there's some worthwhile reading.  Outside that, the bias is so ubiquitous that they often don't seem to know they're even doing it.

I wonder how those jokers would like something like a really good Indiana Jones comic - all the high adventure and improbable stuff, none of the spandex and superpower fantasies...  They've never talked, that I've seen, about Zot!, which strikes me as a lot closer to Indy than supers, even though it superficially LOOKS like a superhero comic.  I wonder what that circle thinks.

Of course superheroes are infantile - I love 'em anyway.

Internet connection is driving crazy today.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 03, 2013, 06:54:22 PM
Short drive.  Interesting scenery.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 06:56:53 PM
Doing typpoes hurts my driving, too.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 03, 2013, 07:19:38 PM
The superhero concept is intrinsically, inherently, essentially, and irretrievably childish...
No!

Of course superheroes are infantile
No!

(yes, I love peremptory and definitive judgements too)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 07:35:46 PM
I want to be Superman.  -Or at least for Superman to be real.  Reasonable people can disagree about whether that's a mature fantasy, but it seems obvious.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 03, 2013, 10:17:41 PM
I want to be Superman.  -Or at least for Superman to be real.  Reasonable people can disagree about whether that's a mature fantasy, but it seems obvious.

I'd rather he not be real and here is why.

He's Kryptonian and a super being that is only countered by Krypton, which is apparently a VERY rare mineral.

And why is this an issue? Superman's costume is Clark Kent. Superman's identity is Superman, his costume, Clark Kent is him trying to fit into humankind and blend. It also represents his opinion of humanity; Clark Kent is a weak, near useless, cowardly individual. And give enough time Superman could become very corrupt: And when that happens and he goes mad with his power what keeps him from conquering Earth and ruling it with an iron fist? And note, there would be people who'd support him to. There is those who would want a god emperor to rule over them. Superman would be too dangerous for the world methinks.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 10:20:22 PM
Google Superman: Red Son.  Someone tried to write a Superman story for you, though along different lines...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 03, 2013, 10:38:11 PM
I think a comic that pulled off a "superhuman/superhero" style thing in a mature fashion was V for Vendetta: While it doesn't have magic imbued super hero marvel nonsense, the main character, V, was subject to many horrific genetic experiments and chemical/drug enhancements that basically made him a superhuman in his endurance, strength and agility and he still retained quite an intellect to boot as well.

But V is certainly no hero, or at least not in the traditional sense. He tortures people, kills several people for his revenge (as well as using innocents to further his agenda) and he generally causes chaos and mayhem and instills anarchy. But he's not a villain either, just an anti-hero.

But even so you have a superhero/super anti hero who is in a dystopian fascist regime after a nuclear war, and the storyline deals with quite mature content.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 10:44:41 PM
That one was good, but good despite me not believing in V, the world he was in, or what he was trying to accomplish.  I think a Russian has got to have a lot better idea than I do of the downside of bringing down the government, even an evil dictatorship, without a plan for how to replace them.  If you think of V as an action version of Yeltsin and speculate about the decade following the story, it kinda ruins the whole thing.

In, fact, forget this post.  It doesn't help to overthink some things.



Yeah; V for Vendetta was pretty great.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 03, 2013, 10:59:45 PM
I don't see V as a Yeltsin, I hardly see him as a Capitalist at all. But he's no Socialist either.

I am sternly against Fascism and the regime in V for Vendetta was going to collapse no matter what, and it was basically run by cut throat oligarchs and military leaders all out for themselves. The Union's fall was different, the Union wasn't a state run by greed for the most part, only in its last years. Sure it had huge inefficiencies and problems but it wasn't the horrid cesspit Yeltsin turned it into during the 90's.

I didn't mind V, and I think he is just something of the inevitable. I am not a supporter of anarchy though, as I've experienced raw Laissez Faire Capitalism and that's the closest thing you'll get to anarchy without total collapse of a society. I had to literally fight to survive during those years and while I was no innocent even before that time, if I was religious I certainly didn't earn no redemption during those years and if anything, I worsened the amount of stains credited towards me. Those years were horrifying to live in.

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 11:10:38 PM
That's exactly my point, though.  V was purely an anarchist, and no way was England a better place to live for a long time after the story.

A real hero would have had a plan to build something.  Maybe Evey was supposed to - though that would be a real hail mary, on V's part, to assume.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 11:14:38 PM
Not to say that Mr. Susan and his cronies didn't need killin' - but there are worse things than oppression, and V (and Moore) didn't think that one through.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 03, 2013, 11:15:58 PM
Well what he did was he made the slate clean; he removed all of the big powerbrokers and he allowed others to step up and form a society. So you can't blame him for that, the regime had to end. It was so corrupt and self destructive that if it didn't collapse like it did, the whole of England may have been wiped out internally.


The Union's fall did not clean the slate, all it did was allow people who had connections to rise up, kick everyone else down and everyone else had to fight for their survival. V kills all real connections. He's a realistic revolutionary, you can sympathize with him, hate him or a bit of both.

And Susan and his cronies would've eventually butchered everyone. Susan was going completely mad.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 11:33:12 PM
Look, you know that I'm a big egalitarian -I think the way I run this place is proof- but a country isn't an internet forum; somebody has to be in charge, or it'll be that big violent guy down the road who collects guns - and a lot of people will die while that's getting settled.  It's the same reason Europeans until pretty recent history put up with pathetic, inbred, royalty.  Almost no King can possibly be so incompetent as to be as bad as having people fighting over who's King.

I don't buy that Susan and his murdering thugs were worse than utter chaos, -Susan was going mad because of V- and I'm surprised to hear you say so, remembering the 1990's as you do.  All I'm suggesting is that V should have thought a little about what might come next before he started killing people.

Fight the power and stick it to the Man, yes, I'm all for it; but not before you have a good plan in case you win.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2013, 11:40:43 PM
Incidentally, I'd like your reaction to this idea: if the Crown Prince had not been a publically-known hemophiliac, the last 100 years of Russian history might very likely have been profoundly different.  He wasn't a very good prospect to live long enough to be Czar, or produce heirs, and that made all the difference in getting people to support a revolution.  Chaos was coming anyway.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 04, 2013, 01:16:05 AM
I want to be Superman.  -Or at least for Superman to be real.  Reasonable people can disagree about whether that's a mature fantasy, but it seems obvious.

I'd rather he not be real and here is why.

He's Kryptonian and a super being that is only countered by Krypton, which is apparently a VERY rare mineral.

And why is this an issue? Superman's costume is Clark Kent. Superman's identity is Superman, his costume, Clark Kent is him trying to fit into humankind and blend. It also represents his opinion of humanity; Clark Kent is a weak, near useless, cowardly individual.

You're misreading Superman in the way a great many people do.

Clark Kent is neither weak nor useless nor cowardly.  He is the human son who was raised by Ma and Pa Kent.  He is kind and decent and generous and altruistic.  He is not macho in any way, but I personally do not in any way mistake that for 'weak'.   He is intelligent, considerate, sensitive, articulate, and a talented writer... among many other things. 

Clark Kent is the real person.  He puts on the Superman costume, and when he does, he becomes merely himself, with super powers... which he always uses for other's good.

I know it's not realistic.  It's why DC has such a hard time bringing Superman into the modern age, where everyone has flaws and feet of clay.  Superman just... doesn't.  That's who he is.  But that's not what modern audiences want... and every time DC tries to make Superman more like a Marvel hero, well, they make him less like Superman. 

I understand what DC feels it has to do with the character, but to date it has never worked.  This is the problem DC has; most of their really big well known characters are from an earlier, more innocent age and do not translate well to this more cynical and corrupt one.  Only Batman can really make the transition to four dimensional characterization.  It just doesn't work well with Superman and Wonder Woman, and, I think, the Flash as well. 

But when you worry about 'if Superman was real, he'd be a dick, or might become a dick'... yeah, you're right.  That's why Superman can never be real... in our world. 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 04, 2013, 02:35:24 AM
Incidentally, I'd like your reaction to this idea: if the Crown Prince had not been a publically-known hemophiliac, the last 100 years of Russian history might very likely have been profoundly different.  He wasn't a very good prospect to live long enough to be Czar, or produce heirs, and that made all the difference in getting people to support a revolution.  Chaos was coming anyway.


Amongst NUMEROUS other reasons. There was outside influences pressing on the nation such has war and that in turn effected the economy and bad things happened.

Susan's England also had outside influences: remember the HUGE amount of Scottish gangs that came down over? They were dominating the gov't and state. Creedy was going to lead a coup no matter what, Helen was having a powerplay with her husband and was going to lead a coup and Susan was already insane and going to go clinical no matter what the source of stress. I see your point and I agree mind, V's lack of foresight is apparent, though if you also remember, Evie becomes the next V, so there is hint she takes up reigns to help the country a bit.


Also on account of Superman, note that my sources of Superman may be a bit different. Films in particular did not help his image.
Though I do get your point on that though, looking back at it now. But while the world can't have a Superman, I do not think the world can't have heroes. Heroes can, did and do still exist, its just they are a lot more subtle. Heroes are people willing to take one step further to get a job done properly so the rest of us don't have to put up with a problem, and heroes are people who are willing to sacrifice. And a good many sort of people like that exist, this forum has a few.

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 02:53:37 AM
Well, I wasn't speaking of the prince as a singular cause, by any means; merely suggesting that a healthy Romanov heir just might have made enough difference to get the old system past a wartime crisis point.  My knowledge of the time and place suggests that the revolution could maybe have gone the other way, anyway, if it had rained at different times, or something.

A real hero would have had a plan to build something.  Maybe Evey was supposed to - though that would be a real hail mary, on V's part, to assume.
All we saw Evey do was carry out V's last wish, and seemingly commence training a successor - which tends to hint that she didn't expect to live a long time - or just wanted another pair of hands to the work, depending.  She probably hadn't changed her mind about not killing, but we have very little to go on about WHAT she was going to do.  V was much cleverer even than we were shown if he knew.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 04, 2013, 03:10:55 AM
A real hero would have had a plan to build something.  Maybe Evey was supposed to - though that would be a real hail mary, on V's part, to assume.
All we saw Evey do was carry out V's last wish, and seemingly commence training a successor - which tends to hint that she didn't expect to live a long time - or just wanted another pair of hands to the work, depending.  She probably hadn't changed her mind about not killing, but we have very little to go on about WHAT she was going to do.  V was much cleverer even than we were shown if he knew.
[/quote]
V isn't a hero, but he isn't a villain either. He was simply a means of destruction for a regime that was bound to fail.
And he did groom Evey as his successor. Why would he got through so much effort to "educate" her and make her mature/ embody his ideals more? He essentially indoctrinated her to become the next V. So he did plan that; he did not plan a system to take place but he did plan for someone to help guide the revolution after his Viking funeral. So he wasn't completely in lack of foresight.

The book has quite a bit of depth if you look at it.

Well, I wasn't speaking of the prince as a singular cause, by any means; merely suggesting that a healthy Romanov heir just might have made enough difference to get the old system past a wartime crisis point.  My knowledge of the time and place suggests that the revolution could maybe have gone the other way, anyway, if it had rained at different times, or something.

The last Romanov ruler WAS a relatively strong leader though. Nicolas was by no means a weak man, or an incompetent leader. He tried his best to fight a massive war that his country was dragged into, and he had to put up with a sub faction in the military that wanted to follow the latest military trends, trends that caused the Russian army to fail and be beaten severely.

The problem was the inherent corruption and just overall backwardness of that regime. People were tired of bending a knee to an inept autocratic monarchy (no matter the leader) backed by oligarchs and fat pocketed churchmen. The rest of the world was advancing in some way or another, monarchies were dying and on their way out. It was only a matter of time.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 03:31:17 AM
You second paragraph is near pure Marxist historical theory,  you know.

Nicolas even tried to head off the war with a personal appeal to his cousin Bill.  Which could have worked, under different circumstances.  I think a tiny bit better of the man for trying that.  -And he and Alexandra deserved full marks for an important part of monarchy people don't think about much - they looked great.  Not even Putin has prettied up a parade like those two could.  I'm not very serious in raising the point, but stuff like that does matter.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 04, 2013, 03:37:35 AM
It's not that I don't find where this thread has ended up fascinating.  It's just that I know nothing about Russian history and V FOR VENDETTA is probably my least favorite Alan Moore product, so, you know.

But by all means, carry on.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 03:38:57 AM
Seriously?  Because it's your thread, and I'll ramble about everything in the universe somewhere else if you want - community tradition.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 04, 2013, 03:39:18 AM
It's not that I don't find where this thread has ended up fascinating.  It's just that I know nothing about Russian history and V FOR VENDETTA is probably my least favorite Alan Moore product, so, you know.

But by all means, carry on.
I take it you never read Lost Girls?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 03:41:23 AM
I've heard terrible things about it, and the pages I've seen excerpted didn't tend to make me disbelieve - but anything out since 1997, I probably only know from reading internets comments.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 04, 2013, 03:41:53 AM
Never heard of LOST GIRLS.  Sorry.  And yes, by all means, carry on.  I love a good ramble.  I can post my own pointless meandering hoss shwit in other threads.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 04, 2013, 03:42:37 AM
As I said, Nicolas was a strong leader, but his regime, the very system was old, outdated and was going to collapse. It may be a Marxist Theory but its a theory that has turned out true, and not just for the Russian monarchy, but ALL monarchies. Nearly ever monarchy now is non existent, or non functioning. Of course lots of that is due to world wars kicking them out of power, but why didn't so many European nations re-instate their monarchs into full power after the conflicts? Because people do not want monarchies is why. They were/are outdated establishment that is unrelated to the modern society.

Also, apologies Darren.

And man this thread is active, I've tried posting 5 times and I get these damned insurgent messages  ;lol
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 04, 2013, 03:45:18 AM
I'm going to bed, and then, I'm going away for a while.  So, insurge on.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 07:59:48 PM
Vish?  Since you're following this thread, check this, from The Reading Corner:

The Infinity Concerto by Greg Bear.

-So far, this seems very good, notwithstanding a title that sounds like a Marvel Comics crossover event about Thanos taking up classical music.

I hope Vishniac sees that joke.  I remember when Jim Starlin used to write comics that weren't stupid.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 02:54:39 PM
As I said, Nicolas was a strong leader, but his regime, the very system was old, outdated and was going to collapse. It may be a Marxist Theory but its a theory that has turned out true, and not just for the Russian monarchy, but ALL monarchies. Nearly ever monarchy now is non existent, or non functioning. Of course lots of that is due to world wars kicking them out of power, but why didn't so many European nations re-instate their monarchs into full power after the conflicts? Because people do not want monarchies is why. They were/are outdated establishment that is unrelated to the modern society.
That's basic democratic/capitalist theory too, you know.  Monarchy is a very bad system of government - if it's a meritocracy, they fight, and everyone suffers.  If it's purely hereditary to avoid the fighting, you end up with inbred hemophiliac boy kings, and that's no good, either.

The British constitutional monarchy model renders them at least harmless, if expensive to keep up.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 05, 2013, 02:57:22 PM

The British constitutional monarchy model renders them at least harmless, if expensive to keep up.

And utterly useless to boot.

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 02:59:16 PM
I meant to be implying that.

...

You know, I had no idea you were into comics at all before we started chatting about V.  Anything else you like?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 05, 2013, 03:06:33 PM
I only like certain comics. I am not a big fan of most superhero stuff, I find it boring and the storylines rather... lacking. I've read the original Batmans too. (And they are quite possibly some of the most silly things I've read.

I liked Frank Miller's Sin City, love it to death.
Also liked some graphic novel adaptions of other things. I forget the exact name but there was a graphic novel adaption of one of my favourite Sony Playstation 1 games: Metal Gear Solid.

Walking Dead and a few other ones also come off the top of my head.

Not a fan of anime much, art style hurts my head and the plots make me vomit for the most part (plus I didn't grow up with comics as much as most: and especially not anime, its not aimed for my generation at all.)
Though I did watch the odd two shows I think... Full Metal Alchemy/Alchemist and Ghost in a Shell were the ones I've seen, my daughters showed it to me and its the only two I've seemed to like for the most part.

There is others as well but that's all I can recall at the moment.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 04:58:21 PM
Fullmetal Alchemist (the anime) is the only thing besides Ghost in the Shellon that list I know well enough to discuss intelligently. 

The entire run of the Fullmetal Alchemist; Brotherhood version can be watched here http://www.watchcartoononline.com/anime/full-metal-alchemist-brotherhood-english-dubbed-guide (http://www.watchcartoononline.com/anime/full-metal-alchemist-brotherhood-english-dubbed-guide) BTW.  The latter half the original series went its own way; this follows the manga.

I loved both anime.  Not a big fan of the genre, but this is pretty good stuff.

I'm also quite fond of Cowboy Bebop and Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 05, 2013, 05:15:00 PM
Huh. I'll have to watch those when I get back... thanks for digging it up.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 05:21:35 PM
Frank Miller in general I can talk bout, mind you; I just haven't read any Sin CityThe Dark Knight (original) really is as good as you've probably heard, and I don't get why people reportedly found Ronin so hard to follow.  It was good stuff in the trademark Frank Miller style.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 05, 2013, 05:25:52 PM
Haven't yet read Ronin unfortunately. As for Sin City I always loved the atmosphere of a cesspit crime town like he portrays  with that classic noir style. It really portrays a hard case setting in a very interesting fashion; and in general its really bad ass. Loved the characters that came out of it, guys like Marv are one of my favourite fictional anti-heroes.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 05, 2013, 05:27:35 PM
I saw the Sin City film but it kind of soured me on the books because as I understand it they are almost shot for shot adaptations, and I was deeply disappointed by the movie; which sucked because it probably still has, to this day, the best trailer I have ever seen for any motion picture.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 05:28:16 PM
Jarl, I wish I could reach into the innerwebs and loan you my copies of Ronin and Dark Knight...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 05, 2013, 05:30:11 PM
Jarl, I wish I could reach into the innerwebs and loan you my copies of Ronin and Dark Knight...
Could always screenshot it, but that'd be tedious. And mailing it is out of the question  ;lol
We'd both be dead by the time they'd arrive. The postal system here is garbage.

I saw the Sin City film but it kind of soured me on the books because as I understand it they are almost shot for shot adaptations, and I was deeply disappointed by the movie; which sucked because it probably still has, to this day, the best trailer I have ever seen for any motion picture.
The film wasn't terrible, but it was seriously lacking in lots of the stories that set the mood and tone of the entire series. Plus it borrowed off too much from the Matrix craze back then with it's special effects. I honestly hate the Matrix with a passion, I do not find it interesting at all: now a movie or series about a war against transhumans/sentient robots would be interesting because you'd have so many moral implications going both ways.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 05:57:51 PM
Dark City played with the same sorts of themes, and while not perfect, IMAO was a much better film, aside from having Jennifer Connelly in it.

I never got why The Matrix impressed so many people so much.  I found it merely okay for the kind of thing it is.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 06:00:16 PM
Also?  Darren ghost-wrote most of the original OHOTMU Sabertooth entry.  Impressed the heck out of me...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 05, 2013, 06:03:37 PM
-So far, this seems very good, notwithstanding a title that sounds like a Marvel Comics crossover event about Thanos taking up classical music.

That makes Thanos...smile!

(http://www.actucine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Thanos-in-The-Avengers.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 06:05:36 PM
-So far, this seems very good, notwithstanding a title that sounds like a Marvel Comics crossover event about Thanos taking up classical music.

That makes Thanos...smile!

(http://www.actucine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Thanos-in-The-Avengers.jpg)
He has good taste in music...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 05, 2013, 06:08:17 PM
I never got why The Matrix impressed so many people so much.  I found it merely okay for the kind of thing it is.
I maintain that the original Matrix still stands up very well. It's got clear purpose and clean storytelling not excessively bogged down with exposition beyond the initial "Desert of the Real" info dump, and some great action scenes. The tragedy is that it is harmed retroactively by its sequels.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 06:27:10 PM
Would you agree with "good if you like that sort of thing"? 

It's too much of a contemporary shoot-'em-up for me to enjoy as SF, and the SF element isn't even original to movies, let alone print SF.  A lot of what blew people I knew's minds was the investigation into the nature of reality - but only because they hadn't seen The Thirteenth Floor or Dark City or Existenz (if I'm remembering that last right).
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 05, 2013, 06:44:00 PM
Would you agree with "good if you like that sort of thing"? 

It's too much of a contemporary shoot-'em-up for me to enjoy as SF, and the SF element isn't even original to movies, let alone print SF.  A lot of what blew people I knew's minds was the investigation into the nature of reality - but only because they hadn't seen The Thirteenth Floor or Dark City or Existenz (if I'm remembering that last right).
Yes but film is also a visual medium in addition to one about plots and ideas, and you need to factor in the quality of the acting, effects, editing and direction in addition to the originality of the ideas when you judge a film. There's hardly an original bone in the Matrix's body-- it cribs from everything: Neuromancer, Snow Crash, Terminator, Plato and the films that you mentioned, but what makes it a good film is how well it presents itself. Bullet time is used everywhere since the Matrix, but remember that it is the first film that figured out how to do it.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 06:45:54 PM
I'd be happier if no one had invented bullet time; witness my earlier remarks about the Watchmen movie...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 05, 2013, 06:52:24 PM
I'd be happier if no one had invented bullet time; witness my earlier remarks about the Watchmen movie...
The Watchmen film is justified to me exclusively for the sequence where Dr. Manhatten travels to Mars and then reminiscences about his past, which I thought was fantastically realized.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 06:53:54 PM
That part has slipped from my memory, for what it's worth.


BTW, Dr. Manhattan looked scarily like my dad back when he was human.  That right there was a strange part of my reading experience that I can't imagine how it affected my perception of the whole work differently from the experience of others.  It certainly didn't improve my grammar. 

Coincidentally, I happened to have re-read Watchmen just last month.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 05, 2013, 07:00:48 PM
Oh and I also enjoy the fact that the movie exists at all, nevermind whether it is good or not. I imagined that a Watchmen movie would be all but unfilmable.

The opening credits set to The Times They Are A-Changin were great as well.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 07:04:17 PM
Agreed with that last, for sure.  I didn't hate the movie, in general.  It was okay.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 05, 2013, 07:15:14 PM
Would you agree with "good if you like that sort of thing"?
That could be said for anything: any movie / book / painting / song.
It's like people using "IMHO" everytime they post an opinion.
No risk.  Above all not antagonizing anybody. Total relativism: everything can be good and everything has the same value.

So I don't really agree. Some works stand. Even I can recognize that some I don't like stand as well.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 07:27:36 PM
Yeah, but I'm comfortable to label my opinions as such, and don't mind it from others, because it's one of those things that greases the social interaction.  Most arguing on the innernets is over matters of opinion, and, lordy lordy, can nerdz ever get HOT over a difference of opinion. 

Sure, I can say that Citizen Kane is a better movie than Dune without much fear of contradiction, and saying it would be truth, but those are tricky things to measure, and ultimately come down to I liked one and didn't like the other.  It's a matter of opinion.

I frequently tell my mother "they didn't make it for you".  I generally mean that the work in question is actually good, but nothing a 73 year-old church lady would like.  I try to warn her off about stuff she'll find to be dirty - it's my duty. (She likes The Big Bang Theory anyway.)  (And Daddy didn't believe me and tried to watch Boogie Nights twice.  And didn't finish either time, because Boogie Nights, while a genuinely good move, isn't the kind of thing he liked.)

There IS such a thing as the kind of thing that people who like that kind of thing will like; I've met David Lynch fans who loved Dune.

Go figure.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 05, 2013, 08:43:03 PM
Most arguing on the innernets is over matters of opinion, and, lordy lordy, can nerdz ever get HOT over a difference of opinion.
There is a French cinema forum where I am not registered but where I go to read news about future movies and reviews of movies I have seen.
Just reading some threads can make you hate geeks: the constant nitpicking about details or music you didn't even notice while in theatre... ::)


Quote
Sure, I can say that Citizen Kane is a better movie than Dune without much fear of contradiction...
And I wouldn't support you: I never watched Citizen Kane but actually like Dune.
Quote
There IS such a thing as the kind of thing that people who like that kind of thing will like; I've met David Lynch fans who loved Dune.

Go figure.
And so I figure: I never understood why people DIDN'T like Dune.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 08:48:32 PM
Have you read the book?  I'm not sure Lynch did.

Citizen Kane is as good as you've surely heard.  Honest.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 05, 2013, 08:56:52 PM
Lynch's Dune is awesome because it's clear that Lynch did read the book, he just didn't care about what any of it actually meant and just interpreted everything through his own crazy lens. Which leads to stuff like Paul's remark that the Fremen have made his name into a killing word translating into Paul arming the Fremen with weapons that blow things up using sound, and having the Fremen shouting his name to kill people.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 08:58:25 PM
And there's some of the crap I hated most.

It's all a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 05, 2013, 09:17:10 PM
And there's some of the crap I hated most.

It's all a matter of opinion.
In a more perfect world we would have gotten Alexander Jodorovsky's Dune, which would have made Lynch's version look like Robert Rodriguez's Sin City in comparison.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 09:35:26 PM
I've heard good things about Jodorovsky's plans, though what I've seen didn't impress much.  (Salvador Dali as Shaddam?  Really?)

If I could travel timelines, I'd definitely score all the videotapes I could.  I'd like to see that, Star Trek starring Jeffrey Hunter, and a million things of the sort.  I'm even curious about Star Trek: Voyager with Anne Boleyn (name that reference ;) ).
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 12, 2013, 08:25:03 PM
...Mylochka just made me sit outside for a half hour and keep her company while she washed the dogs.

We think we figured out how to fix Wonder Woman...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 12, 2013, 09:03:14 PM
Sometimes I don't understand anything you say.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 12, 2013, 09:15:25 PM
:D

You know, one of the most iconic comics characters of all time, of whom innerwebs nerdz are always talking about DC not knowing what to do with her?  You must have heard of Wonder Woman; she looks like former Miss World USA Lynda Carter, who was a big TV star in the late 70's.

I think the first line of my imaginary pitch would be: "Key to fixing Wonder Woman is understanding that she doesn't need fixing."
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 12, 2013, 09:31:13 PM
Wonder Woman needs a CONCEPT.  That's the key to, for example, doing a successful WW movie adaptation.  WW as she exists is a collection of weird S&M fetishes in a red white and blue costume.  She needs some essential, underlying theme, beyond "power and beauty in subservience to any man who gets a lasso around her". 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 12, 2013, 11:11:00 PM
Concept?  She's the strongest woman in the world.  She has superhero adventures. 

Historically, her book hasn't been very good.  What wasn't a bit inept, mostly in the old days, has been overthought, because she is Iconic, and her stories need to be Important.  THAT'S the real heart of the 'problem'.

As to a few important details:

1) Steve Trevor is pretty much it for supporting cast who's taken root.  Precious few have heard of Eta Candy, and who remembers the various nonentities everyone since George Perez has invented?  Writing 101, and Stan Lee's big contribution to cape comics: if all else fails, you can write soap opera.  Well, she needs a viable supporting cast.  Perez did the equivalent of rebooting Superman with Louis Lane turned into an old lady, and that's a mistake in the long run.  Nothing wrong with the iconic Steve Trevor that writing him well won't fix.  We want to bring back Eta, too, and in her original form as a fat comedy relief sidekick - as a challenge to do something interesting with.  -And, this is pretty crucial, she has a sister who's also a super adventurer.  We gotta get at least limited use of Donna.

And that's a good start for a viable supporting cast.  Research into those nonentities I mentioned is also called for, as you never know what you'll think of.

2) WW's rogues galley sucks hard.  Most of them are salvageable, I think, but they've never been used all that well, and she certainly has no Lex Luthor, no Joker.  We talked about doing stuff with various reflections and antitheses of Wonder Woman, so Dr. Psycho's part just got a lot bigger.  Probably bring back Artemis as a sort of anti-Wondy.  I believe Circe has traditionally been the closest there is to an arch, and she may get fired from the gig.  Cheeta, I got no ideas for yet - again, more research is called for.


...My mommy is calling, so more later.  -Okay, my internet was saying no, so I'm only posting now - but still, more later.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 12, 2013, 11:44:55 PM
So, that's only the beginnings of that part of a pitch, with a lot of research left to do, and much detail in need of development.  If we could get that limited use of whatever they're calling Donna Troy these days (which doesn't really matter, because it's Dianna's SISTER we want to use, not so much ex-Wondergirl/Troia/Darkstar/Troia/fill-in Wondy/whoever), we could add value to the character for wherever they're already using her -I assume they gots to still have a Titans book.  Look, the real Wonder Girl always had this thing going for her that I'm not aware of anyone exploiting in her favor; she's the sister of the THIRD MOST ICONIC SUPERHERO OF ALL TIME.  A version of her was played by a hot young Debra Winger on a hit TV show.  Only Robin should have had more iconic status in the New Teen Titans, but outside a couple of spotlight issues, she was rather marginalized in the Wolfman/Perez run.

It is significant that we got this idea from our mother, who remembered Drusilla Prince on the TV show.  She's got some (old and distorted, but still) real recognition factor of her own among the mundane public - this, and the sister thing, which we'd totally use, gives her powerful potential as a new mainstay of Wondy's supporting cast.

Next: dealing with the sexuality issue, and, Wonder Woman's core personality and nature.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 12, 2013, 11:49:29 PM
I am quite frankly not too familiar with Wonder Woman myself, but I remember she had a sort of Amazonian theme going didn't she? Maybe expand upon that or re-invent it. The newer Batman movies, while keeping to the story fairly well also HEAVILY modified some of the backstory and the overall interpretation of Batman. And the result wasn't too bad for it. (Though there is some issues, won't bother going into them because it's off topic to this.)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 12, 2013, 11:58:49 PM
Okay.

Well, here's what I mean by a theme or an essence -- something that drives her central plotlines and core stories.  Something more than 'the strongest woman in the world!', because, frankly, that doesn't drive much. 

The X-Men are 'mutants -- hated and feared by the world they are sworn to protect!'  that's it, in a nutshell, and no angsty adolescent who has ever felt like the rest of the world doesn't like or appreciate or understand them -- in other words, every adolescent since the beginning of time -- can fail to relate to that.

Spider-man's essence is, essentially, that as long as he's Spider-man, he can never be truly happy -- but he can never give up being Spider-man, because He Failed Uncle Ben. 

The Avengers essence is Big Time Heroes Handling The Problems Normal People Never Could.  It's a simple essence but it works so well that as long as Joss Whedon managed to include it in his Big Time Avengers Movie, even he couldn't [fuddle-duddle] the team up  Although he tried.  (It should work well; Lee and Kirby lifted it directly from the JLA... which is ironic, because the superhero team they actually created as a direct response to the JLA was the Fantastic Four, which was nothing like the JLA.)

The Fantastic Four is a super powered family having crazy adventures. 

The essence is that thing that, when you forget about it, the book stops working.  Oh, it may not stop working COMMERCIALLY... Claremont largely abandoned the X-Men's essential theme for years and X-MEN became and remained a huge top seller spawning many franchise books and rip offs... but that was because Claremont stumbled onto a vital truth... everyone wants to read a romance comic, but nobody wants to BUY a romance comic.   Also, male adolescents love a big hit o' lesbian vibe. 

But most of what Claremont did on X-MEN had nothing to do with X-MEN and, well, the stories sucked.  Of course, even when Claremont would sporadically remember X-MEN's theme and do mutant stories about the X-Men protecting a world that hated them from evil mutants, it still sucked, but that's Claremont.

Wonder Woman has no such essential theme.  As a character, she's a complete mess. 

Aside from lacking any kind of essential theme, she's also crippled by... yes... Steve Trevor.  Why?  Because, emotionally, fanboys are disturbed on a level beyond their ability to articulate by a woman who is more powerful than her male companion, and who constantly rescues him.  Superman carrying Lois Lane in his arms like a child is fine; Wonder Woman carrying Steve Trevor similarly is deeply offputting. 

Especially since Steve Trevor is a veritable Race Bannon of a man; he should have his own pulp series... but he keeps getting involved in [poop] that's supposedly way over his head and Wonder Woman has to zip in for the save.  Yet this is very difficult for us to accept, because pulp heroes like Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers and Indiana Jones fight similar menaces all the time and THEY don't have a girlfriend with Kryptonian level powers to rescue them, either. 

Yet you cannot simply give Steve super powers because then the book will be about him. 

The solution is simple, and very fitting to WW's Amazon background... give her a girlfriend.  Then, not only does nobody care that she constantly rescues her love interest, but more guys buy it because, you know, girls kissing each other. 

She also needs a better origin.  Or, a writer who will actually do something with the concept that she's a homunculi... a clay statue animated by magic/divine power.  That's the sort of thing that should cause some deep, introspective thoughts on the nature of humanity... yet it never has.  WW has always known that she's a homunculus, and has never cared.  This is strange.

WW could easily be a comic about a superhuman being of inhuman origin striving to define her own identity.  In fact, that's what it SHOULD be about... identity.  Because no matter how Diana tries to define herself, there are question marks there.  Is she human?  A goddess?  A superheroine?  And while she's trying to sort all this out, she also has to deal with her native culture and her adopted culture, both of which insist on primarily identifying her by her gender... but maybe she herself doesn't find her gender to be her most important or defining characteristic.  Maybe she wants people to stop seeing her as a 'wonder' or as a 'woman' and just see her as a person.  And isn't that what we all want?

There are a ton of fascinating stupidities implicit in the way WW has been handled.  Why are all the Amazons apparently boy crazy?   I get that she was created in the early 40s when non heterosexuality could not be acknowledged in any way, but still, this is an interesting question.  Why do the other Amazons simply accept Diana as not only a person, but the daughter of, and presumptive heir to, their Queen? 

Do Amazons, perhaps, reproduce their numbers by magically animating clay statues of women?  Is this why, to them, Diana is no big deal... because all the Amazon elders create 'daughters' this way?

If Wonder Woman is about a search for identity, about defining what it means to be human, about having equal social  status regardless of gender or weird mystical origin... then this will drive all her stories.  She will be all about helping others find equality and establishing their own identities.  She will be vehemently opposed to all things that dehumanize us... authoritarian forces in all incarnations, from profit driven corporations to tyrannical government entities. 

This Wonder Woman should not rescue a female orphan from a burning orphanage.  She should find her young ward working in a  third world sweatshop and break her out... freeing everyone enslaved there, but taking a special shine to this one courageous young girl who could so easily be an Amazon. 

If she needs a Steve Trevor, he should be a guy with a life and career of his own, and he shouldn't need constant rescuing.  The two of them should work together.  They should be equals, if not in terms of sheer raw power, then emotionally and psychologically. 

And Wonder Woman absolutely has a Lex Luthor -- Dr. Psycho.  And the Cheetah has been very well developed lately, too. 

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 12:07:25 AM
[ninja'd.  I'll get you next, Doc.]

The Amazon thing?  I think 20 years of inept trying too hard have overemphasized that part.  Going back to George Perez' reboot, every new creative team has seemed to want to work with what makes Wonder Woman unique, and you know what?  Hippolyta and Paradise Island and all that are fine, but I wouldn't want to live there. 

How about this?  What makes her special is that she's Wonder Woman.  Strongest woman in the world (also fastest, if Jesse Quick never got her speed powers back).  I see WW as one of those characters, who, like Superman and Captain America, stands out for her pure goodness.  That's not the most intriguing character hook in the cosmos, but it worked for those guys, and is a good traditional fit for her.  You make it work by bouncing her off the bad guys and flawed friends.

You made me skip ahead to the 'Wonder Woman's core personality and nature' stuff, BTW.

None of this "Amazon Warrior' crap, and no killing bad guys.  She's strong and she's good.  Write good straightforward superhero adventures for her, just like you would for Supes and Cap, done with better cast and better villains, write her like a real woman, but not make everything about her Woman and Important.  She's a superhero - you don't have to put WOMAN in all caps on every page; write stories about a superhero who is a woman.  There's a difference.  They've been overthinking it for 25 years.

More soon.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 12:32:53 AM
Okay, not to be dismissive, Doc, but I haven't finished my pitch yet - you won't agree with all my ideas, (that I came up with on the fly in conversation this afternoon after a lifetime of not following Wonder Woman except during the Perez run,) but there's little you raise that hasn't been taken into account on some level.

But "give her a girlfriend"?  Wow.  THAT'S not been said in the halls of DC once a week for decades and shot down every time.  I'm pretending I'm organizing my ideas for a pitch meeting at DC -rather in the same line as the Make It Make Sense game- and I'm gonna go with ideas that might get me a gig, not something everybody ever already thought of and wasn't allowed to do.  She ought to be a lesbian for pretty obvious reasons, and I've got an idea about dealing with that.

As to concept - she has as much as Superman, with Greek mythology stuff instead of Krypton.  As it happens, I really know my classical mythology, but think that horse ought to stop being flogged on account of death.  Krypton is pretty neat, and Amazons and classical mythology are awesome - but Krypton is mostly just origin background for Supes, who was mostly improved by not thinking about the craters of Wegthor and Vathlo Island (though I do miss that stuff) - WW need not have all her adventures center around Hypolitus and Pheadra, or the Magic Lesson Book of Achilles's Tutor.

Concept?  The Avengers need a concept, because my parents never heard of them.  Wonder Woman, everybody knows.  -It's just that nobody writing her has gotten a good handle on what everyone knows since that sick freak Moulton died.

More to come...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 01:21:40 AM
I'm going to catch up on some avatar business before I get back to this - but I will.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 13, 2013, 03:23:13 PM
This is coming from a guy who has read maybe a handful of comics in his life, and most of whose knowledge of the medium comes through nerd osmosis.

I agree with Buster's Uncle that turning Wonder Woman into a lesbian isn't a good choice because it's reinforces the stereotype that women should only be damsels in distress, and the only way for a female hero to escape that role is to basically act the masculine role in the relationship. At best it's a half measure in embracing alternate gender roles, at worst its blatant exploitation.

However Doc Nebula is also right about Steve Trevor's role being generally unpalatable to male readers. As a Doc Savage-esque character he doesn't work because his physical abilities are trumped in every way by Wonder Woman's, so casting him in that role is pointless. So for him to work he needs a different role.

How about this: make him into a politician in Metropolis or wherever WW usually has adventures-- a good one, a JFK type character if JFK were the hero of a comic book. An idealist who genuinely wants to help the poor and cut down the fat cats and Lex Luthors of the world. Maybe he'd like to be president some day? The important thing is that it gives Trevor and WW their own clear domains that they excel in. Trevor understands The System and knows how to enact change from within, but WW knows that the world that they live in is complicated by the existance of super powers. Both of them are equally ignorant of how truly difficult the others' job is-- Steve doesn't see why WW can't just rip to shreds any badguy that opposes her, and WW doesn't understand why Steve doesn't just stage a coup or whatever if he wants to bring about real change. But they have genuine affection for eachother and respect one another's goals, as they ultimately want the same thing.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 03:40:45 PM
Something like that, yes.  Steve is her Lois Lane - he is Iconic; guys who have read maybe a handful of comics in their lives know of him and have an intelligent opinion.  He has to be there, but all that stuff about him getting rescued and such is definitely a good point.  It would be prudent to keep him out of the adventures, mostly.

He can be useful in other capacities.  I never put this thought into so many words, but the intention was never to try to build him up as a heroic figure in the first place.  I'm sorry to keep going there, but the use of Steve has historically, Not Been Done Well.

He can never be her equal, or even near-peer, so that exacerbates the problems with that approach.

Donna Troy's husband Terry Long was never used like that in Teen Titans, and I never resented him for being utterly mundane.  That made him rather non-threatening, and indeed, there was an element of fan surrogate there that appealed...

Not quite where I'd want to go with Steve, but something better can be done.  We want to sell the book to the usual aging fanboys, but gotta have the relationship stuff for all those girls who always wanted to like WW, but couldn't get into it.  Like Stan Lee's innovation, throw in some soap opera...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 13, 2013, 03:51:17 PM
He can never be her equal, or even near-peer, so that exacerbates the problems with that approach.
Well, again, equal how? Certainly not physically or even mentally for that matter, but a relationship where the two partners can't acknowledge one another on equal footing is a really unstable and unsatisfying one.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 04:01:30 PM
Equal as a human being?  I should certainly hope so. 

I was talking about old attempts to build him up as a macho hero-type and involve him in the adventures, which I find to be a mistake.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 13, 2013, 04:03:21 PM
Equal as a human being?  I should certainly hope so. 

I was talking about old attempts to build him up as a macho hero-type and involve him in the adventures, which I find to be a mistake.
Oh definitely. That's why I think the politician angle would work. Since when does a politician need to be super strong or supersmart? His attitude, charisma, ideology and decision making determine his success in that field.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 04:06:05 PM
I'm going to mention the politician angle to Sis.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 13, 2013, 04:33:09 PM
Steve Trevor as a JFK type politician... yes.  Brilliant idea.

I know 'give WW a girlfriend' keeps being proposed and shot down, but that time has passed and the time for a major mainstream character to represent the LGBT community has come round at last.  You wouldn't have to sell it very hard.  My 'reveal that Superman has always been black, and so were all the other Kryptonians" story would be much tougher... but that time is coming, too.

I'm not dissing what you're doing.  I am saying, though, that you're not understanding what I mean by an essence, a core concept, or a theme.  You keep going to powers.  Powers are not what a book is about. 

The essential center of Spider-man is Peter Parker's unhappiness.  (You could go deeper and say it's about loneliness... something Sam Raimi understood and brought to the screen beautifully, and as he took that more and more away from Parker with each succeeding movie, each succeeding movie lost more and more of the essential concept.)  But it's enough to understand that Peter can never forgive himself for failing Uncle Ben. That is what drives him, and that is what makes the concept work.  If he ever gets therapy and forgives himself, he will stop being Spider-man, because being Spider-man is the source and center of all his unhappiness.

Ditko understood this, and so did Stan Lee.

Roger Stern, sadly, did not really grasp it.

Batman is very similar, with the key difference being that Batman is driven by rage and an obsession with NEVER BEING HELPLESS AGAIN.  He doesn't feel guilty that he didn't stop Joe Chill, he's too coldly rational for that.  He was a kid.  He gets that.   But he will NEVER be in that position again.

But this is all the difference.  Where being Spider-man makes Peter Parker miserable and keeps him from ever being  happy (which is why marrying him off to Mary Jane was such a bad idea), being Batman is all that keeps Batman sane and relatively happy.  Bruce Wayne is his daytime mask.    What is very nearly unique about Batman is that he's Batman ALL THE TIME.  Batman is the real guy.  Wayne is a mask he puts on. 

But you have to understand your character.  If you understand your character, you know how to write it so it resonates.  And there is no such thing to understand with WW.

Now, yes, you could make her "the Woman of Wonder".  Strongest, fastest, most awesome chick in the world!  Steve Englehart had Wonder Man get over his insecurity in WEST COAST AVENGERS and start acting like "a young Superman".  And, astonishingly, Wonder Man became boring and shallow.  Not one of Englehart's better ideas.

How does making her be all about being 'the strongest/fastest/best woman in the world' drive her?  How does that motivate her?  Well, it sounds to me like it makes her hypercompetitive, insecure, and shallow.  You go ahead and pitch that. I won't buy the book, though.



Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 04:38:23 PM
We're misunderstanding each other, and I've articulated my point very badly.  The whole pitch, which I haven't even finished yet(having another very busy morning with forum business), is the concept, and I don't have it boiled down to a sentence yet.  Let me think over that part...

I do still maintain that it's as much concept as Superman has.  There's nothing wrong with him that good writing can't work with effectively.  He has the overwhelming advantage of being Superman, after all; her advantage is similar.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 13, 2013, 04:50:53 PM
Steve Trevor as a JFK type politician... yes.  Brilliant idea.

I know 'give WW a girlfriend' keeps being proposed and shot down, but that time has passed and the time for a major mainstream character to represent the LGBT community has come round at last.  You wouldn't have to sell it very hard.  My 'reveal that Superman has always been black, and so were all the other Kryptonians" story would be much tougher... but that time is coming, too.

I'm not dissing what you're doing.  I am saying, though, that you're not understanding what I mean by an essence, a core concept, or a theme.  You keep going to powers.  Powers are not what a book is about. 

The essential center of Spider-man is Peter Parker's unhappiness.  (You could go deeper and say it's about loneliness... something Sam Raimi understood and brought to the screen beautifully, and as he took that more and more away from Parker with each succeeding movie, each succeeding movie lost more and more of the essential concept.)  But it's enough to understand that Peter can never forgive himself for failing Uncle Ben. That is what drives him, and that is what makes the concept work.  If he ever gets therapy and forgives himself, he will stop being Spider-man, because being Spider-man is the source and center of all his unhappiness.

Ditko understood this, and so did Stan Lee.

Roger Stern, sadly, did not really grasp it.

Batman is very similar, with the key difference being that Batman is driven by rage and an obsession with NEVER BEING HELPLESS AGAIN.  He doesn't feel guilty that he didn't stop Joe Chill, he's too coldly rational for that.  He was a kid.  He gets that.   But he will NEVER be in that position again.

But this is all the difference.  Where being Spider-man makes Peter Parker miserable and keeps him from ever being  happy (which is why marrying him off to Mary Jane was such a bad idea), being Batman is all that keeps Batman sane and relatively happy.  Bruce Wayne is his daytime mask.    What is very nearly unique about Batman is that he's Batman ALL THE TIME.  Batman is the real guy.  Wayne is a mask he puts on. 

But you have to understand your character.  If you understand your character, you know how to write it so it resonates.  And there is no such thing to understand with WW.

Now, yes, you could make her "the Woman of Wonder".  Strongest, fastest, most awesome chick in the world!  Steve Englehart had Wonder Man get over his insecurity in WEST COAST AVENGERS and start acting like "a young Superman".  And, astonishingly, Wonder Man became boring and shallow.  Not one of Englehart's better ideas.

How does making her be all about being 'the strongest/fastest/best woman in the world' drive her?  How does that motivate her?  Well, it sounds to me like it makes her hypercompetitive, insecure, and shallow.  You go ahead and pitch that. I won't buy the book, though.
I see exactly where you're coming from and I really appreciate that angle because it vocalizes the real problem with Wonder Woman. Is it possible that she doesn't really have a purpose in this age? It's not as if there aren't any female superheros at all like when the character was created, so she doesn't need to be the sole voice for a voiceless minority of comic book readers; but there's still virtue in the idea of her due to gender politics in comics (and nerd media in general) being so screwed up.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 04:59:21 PM
Good point about Wonder Man in WCA, btw.  I followed/have that run, and Englehart really wasn't doing his best work during that period.

Doc, do this for me, please: give Captain America's concept briefly as possible.  Bonus points if you don't mention Bucky.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Doc Nebula on August 13, 2013, 06:25:27 PM
Cap, like all Marvel characters, has been handled badly since the Silver Age ended. 

Obviously, as a product of the two dimensional Golden Age, he had no concept.  There was nothing that drove the character, no essential character element or engine that, if you took it away, he would stop being Captain America.  In the Golden Age, there is no 'why'.  There's just, hey, look at these goofy guys beating hell out of each other!  Give us a dime.  Thank you.

Or, if he had a concept in the Golden Age, it was a simple one... here's Every American Man, fighting the enemy.  He could be any of us, juiced up with super steroids, given a magic weapon, and sent forth into battle.

Stan and Jack were working intuitively when they constructed the first three dimensional superhero universe.  They did not do a lot of what they did on purpose or with intent.  There were links and bonds and common continuity between all the Marvel titles because Stan was writing pretty much all of them, and it was a great way to cross promote a book that wasn't doing well, by having that character show up briefly in a book that was doing better.

But all that became much more than the sum of its parts.

And another element that I don't think either Stan or Jack or Steve Ditko knew was an essential part of the three dimensional universe, was that these characters were not perfect.  They had flaws.  Physical and, more importantly, emotional flaws.  In the DC Universe, the only way to tell the characters apart is by costume, hair color, and powers.  Otherwise, these characters are all alike.  They talk alike and behave alike; they project what I have elsewhere described as a uniform Caucasian civility at all times.  Even the ones who have solid, unique heroic motivations... like Batman... never mention them.  They are heroes because they are heroes, they do the right thing (which in those days was always defined as, fighting to protect private property from thieves, because murder and rape and other violent crime against mere humans did not exist) because that's what they do.

But in the Marvel Universe, omigod, these people are freaks!  Everyone of them is driven by something, afraid of something, needs something, can't get something... and it was amazing.

But Stan never intended it, it just happened.  He didn't understand it... if he had, he would have given some kind of intrinsic flaw to Hank Pym, and Hank Pym's series might have succeeded.  (Jim Shooter came along decades later and tried to retroactively give Hank an inherent flaw -- he's unstable and borderline crazy, and was never all that effective in action, anyway -- but Shooter had to ignore years of continuity to do it, and it came off as just wrong headed and kind of mean.)(Also, Hank might have succeeded if Stan had written his series instead of turning it over to brother Larry, but, also, Hank needed a flaw and didn't have one.)

Anyway, so, when Stan wanted to bring Cap into the Silver Age, and into the first three dimensional superhero universe, he knew he needed to give Cap a flaw of some sort... but honestly, he really couldn't come up with one.  He made him all guilty and angsty over Bucky, and gave him some self pity trips about being 'a man out of time', but, ****, we weren't buying that... Wanda clearly would have ****ed his brains out had he merely beckoned, not to mention he was pretty much covered up with hotties everywhere else he went, too, so, jesus, Rogers, snap out of THAT ****.

No, the simple truth is, for much of the Silver Age, Cap had no concept.  No real driving force, nothing that, if you took it away from him, he would stop being Cap.  He had no existential purpose.  Without World War II, he was a hollow shell of a man. 

He did best in AVENGERS, where Lee was wise enough to get rid of all the characters who overshadowed him and let him  have a great deal of comparative gravitas and charisma by leading Quicksilver, the Witch, and Hawkeye.  That worked... but "Avengers Leader!" was still not enough.  You could take it away and he'd still be Cap.  But... what made him Cap? God knows.  He was going on sheer inertia.

And it showed; if any comic other than Daredevil more clearly operated on sheer inertia, simply going through the standard superhero motions for years in the sixties and seventies, it was Cap's title.

Even Steve E. didn't know what to do with him... at first.  When  Steve took over, Gerry Conway had Cap being a cop in his secret identity, which did nothing for him.  Steve did that wonderful "50's Cap" storyline which was thought up by Roy Thomas, but that just clarified continuity without giving Cap an essence. 

But Englehart finally got it, and with the Secret Empire storyline, culminating in the White House suicide (originally, Number One was meant to be Nixon, but as Marvel time keeps collapsing behind itself, who is it now?  George W. Bush?  Dick Cheney seems more likely...) he found the one thing that Cap could lose and not be Cap any more... his belief in America.  His patriotism.  If he no longer believes in America... how can he be Captain America?

The problem is, this should really have been the end of Steve Rogers as Captain America.  Eventually he took the role and costume back, because Englehart contrived a situation where lesser men kept trying to be Captain America and failing, and finally, the Red Skull tortured one of those lesser Caps to death by mistake... but that was a contrivance.  Cap has stated that he represents the American dream, not the cynical reality... and I can see that... but it's delusional and I don't respect it.  It's why I no longer really like Cap.

But, as I understand it, Steve Rogers is no longer Cap, anyway. It took a very long time... he should never have stopped being Nomad, the Man Without A Country... he should have been Everyman, Without Ties To A Corrupt State... the guy who could be any of us, sickened by all the darkness and compromise and evil being done in our names every day, rejecting all the trappings of nationalism, proclaiming ourselves Humans First. 

So, what's Cap's essence, his core, his whatever?  He doesn't have one.  He did have one, briefly, when he was Nomad. 

Okay?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 06:51:07 PM
So Cap is not great?  Because he's hard to get a handle on?

I agree that purely good characters are difficult to write, and I agree with your characterization of the smiling friends DC guys up to about 30 years ago.  Stan was about 20 years out in front with an added layer of sophistication, which was pitiful of DC.  But I also think that there's room/a role/a need for a few purely noble characters as long as they are rare.

I followed Cap the entire ten years Gruenwald was writing it (from about a year before, in fact, and until Leifield) and mostly loved it, so I dunno, there was something in there really speaking to me.

So I'd state his concept, sans any reference to his abilities, as "A truly good man who believes in the American way." 

You mentioned Bucky, so no points, but only once, so none subtracted.  I do think you made my point that a good character can be hard to put a finger on, and still be a good character.  He's Cap - that's something extra special, and you know it, even if his book is not always good. 

Talk to me about Superman in the same vein, if you like...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 13, 2013, 08:06:25 PM
...give Captain America's concept briefly as possible.  Bonus points if you don't mention Bucky.
The concept of Captain America is fully comprised in his name:
he is a soldier fighting for the values of America, not as a nation but as an ideal.

If you want more explanations, call me back! (Star Trek VI on tv and I never watched it).
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 13, 2013, 08:12:46 PM
That's better-put than my sentence; the soldier thing is crucial, and I left it off, like a dummy.  I'm going to gift you 50 EC, and also like you even better than before, by way of points.

Do Superman, please, and not too much about Krypton and the powers...


VI sucks.  I may be the only one who thinks so, but I really, really do.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 12:18:55 AM
Interesting point that didn't hit me when I was talking about following Captain America throughout Mark Gruenwald's 10-year run - he played with doing reflections of aspects of Cap a good deal, with villains like the anti-nationalist Flag Smasher and with the Ultimate Cap-like before Ultimate Cap replacement Cap, John Walker - who was all the negative things somebody who didn't know Cap might expect a soldier from the 40s to be, all hard-butt and conservative.  There were a number of others who were deliberate thematic reflections of Captain America.

And that's an inspiration, but oddly enough, when I talked about doing the same with Wonder Woman's villains yesterday, (especially Dr. Psycho) it was Mylochka's idea.  She was thinking of Calisto on Xena: Warrior Princess and other characters who reflected aspects of Xena.  (Calisto as the anti-Xena, Joxer as wannabe adventurer and Xena's opposite in skill, Autolycus as skill without ethics and maturity, even Aries as what Xena used to be, and is often tempted to backslide into.)  Xena was an often painfully bad show, but the overarching theme of a once-bad person trying to mature and be good was compelling, and the recurring charters reinforced the theme beautifully.  When Sis proposed the same idea of reflections/contrasts/opposites for Wonder Woman, I immediately told her about Gruenwald (who faked his death 17 years ago yesterday, by coincidence) and when he did the same in Cap's book.

I think there's lots of wonderful stuff to be done with putting Dianna in the room with her opposites, and reflections getting it wrong, and so on - it helps define her, and it's a solid thematic writing tactic that just plain makes for good stories. 

Thank you, Mark.  Thank you, semi-competent Xena writers.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 14, 2013, 12:33:09 AM
Often using foils in writing will portray a character more strongly, as it sets the difference in personality quite starkly. As I stated my knowledge of Wonder Woman and a lot of comic book heroes is worth jack [poop], I didn't really grow up with any of the ones you guys are familiar with as they weren't really big over in my sector of the world. But what I do know is that a character's actions in a situation, even if subtle, can determine a lot about their character's personality. With Wonder Woman I think she needs something to starkly contrast her: With any form of art and literature, contrast is an element that can really bring out parts of a work. Wonder Woman needs contrasting elements to herself in order to be a more stunning and interesting character, and maybe even an equivalent who had the same situation, the same path even but went down an entirely different road then her. In comparison, it'd be like if Superman had a brother: But that brother became disillusioned and decided that his strength would be better used to rule Earth rather then just protect it. It may even be in noble interests that this character has, again with this theoretical brother of Superman, maybe he thinks his rule is what humanity needs. Give Wonder Woman a foil like that and you'll starkly differentiate her character and make her more prominent. 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 12:37:18 AM
I think something somewhat along those lines was done with an Amazon named Artemis, who replaced Dianna as Wonder Woman for a while - I gather she was a lot meaner - and thus my previous mention of maybe bringing her back (she's currently dead) as an anti-wondy.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 14, 2013, 12:41:24 AM
And for a Wonder Woman movie to work, like the Batman movies of recent you need to re-invent her. Sure, most people know of Wonder Woman and Batman but aren't really heavily vested in either of it's stories: At least that was the case for Batman until the recent movies came out. Those movies approached it from a different angle then most of the films before it and went back to the core theme of Batman for the most part and it was a huge success. Wonder Woman needs to start from ground zero again like Batman did and she needs to be re-invented for the audience of today. Bring back villains and any elements that can give her contrast and you'll have an interesting film.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 01:09:27 AM
I couldn't disagree more strongly.  This is the thinking that ruins most comic book movies.

Are you familiar with the first season of the WW TV show?  It was set in the 40's, she beat up Nazis most weeks, and she looked like this:

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5600411102_3785ec7860_m.jpg) (http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/39883.jpg) (http://blog.hellomagazine.com/thefullstory/files/2012/02/wonder-woman-1.jpg)

Hard to go wrong with watching Nazis getting pummeled by her.  The other seasons, set in the present, just weren't as good.

So it's already been done right, and was a huge hit.  Let's not fiddle with a winning formula, but find another statuesque brunette and hurt some Nazis!

(http://www.comicbookdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/linda-carter-as-wonder-woman.jpg)

(http://thiswastv.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/kesselmanww_s01e03.png?w=608&h=400&crop=1)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 14, 2013, 01:15:09 AM
You are entitled to your opinion, and again: My knowledge of this super heroine is worthless. I don't know much about her.

But I think some sort of revitilization is needed and I think there was a bit of misunderstanding: She hasn't had any film recently and audiences may be a bit unfamiliar with her is all. When I meant start at ground zero I didn't mean- change her story and theme, I meant:

Start off at the BEGINNING of her story so people get accustomed to her again.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 01:23:52 AM
Oh.  Well, we agree then - although the kids do know who Wonder Woman is over here. 

Everybody does, which is sort of my push-back about having to have a concept.  It's a little like having to come up with a concept for a real person you know.  She's not up there with Superman, quite, but as famous as, say, Robin, which is a VERY famous character.  Spider-man and the X-men are getting there, 'cause having hit TV shows and/or movies is the name of that game -being famous to non fans- but she, like Superman and Batman and Robin, have been famous a lot longer.

Nothing about the pictures?

I do need to say that from a purely comic book perspective, which is what I've been talking about, I don't want to start over if it can be helped.  DC, the company that publishes her, has started over everything so many times in the last 25 years, that it's become a creative cancer that I want to avoid.  Just give me and Mylochka a month to read everything in the Wonder Woman comic since 1987 as research, and I'd want to try very hard to go on from wherever she was when we came in and try to make it work and/or ignore the unusable parts by not mentioning them again.  Way, way, WAY too many reboots already.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 04:42:12 PM
Apropos of nothing, I want to point out a sub-optimal creative decision in Watchmen.  I'm fine/agree with the idea that actual masked mystery men suddenly running around in Watchmen's real life killed the appeal of capes as escapist fantasy.  But other things being the same as in the actual real world, when a particular genre ended up pushing out monster comics, romance comics, horror comics and the like in place of supers, it would have been war or western comics, the latter being most realistically likely, IMAO.  Pirates were indeed a thing in the older comics, but my diffuse knowledge of comics history indicates that they didn't quite rise to the level of the other genres I mention.

But since Wertham and the congressional hearings got nipped in the bud because of the spook agencies employing the Commedian, and EC Comics didn't get stepped on and driven into just publishing MAD Magazine, horror comics would have been realistic and the best fit for the creative echoes Moore and Gibbons were doing with the comic Bernard read for 9 months...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 05:11:59 PM
...I left out funny animal comics, a major early genre; but then, who wants to imagine how Moore would have twisted Hoppy the Marvel Bunny or Fox and Crow?

-Besides Uno, I mean...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 14, 2013, 05:57:20 PM
But other things being the same as in the actual real world, when a particular genre ended up pushing out monster comics, romance comics, horror comics and the like in place of supers, it would have been war or western comics, the latter being most realistically likely, IMAO.
Two things:

1) Yes. I remember a lot of comics (aside from Marvel) from when I was young but I can't remember pirates ones. (That's perhaps why Moore chose this sub-genre). There were a lot of non-super heroes and western (Blek the Rock, some lesser kinds of Tarzan-like, the Phantom) and war and horror comics were everywhere in very little and black&white format.

2) I don't know whether you saw them but there are now a series of different comics from different writers/scenarists called "Before Watchmen" and narrating the adventures of the Comedian, the first, Silk Spectre, Ozymandias, the  Minutemen, the Masked Judge, etc. I could just throw a glance at them once in a shop but they seem pretty well done (but Moore would kill anybody acknowledging that!).
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 14, 2013, 06:01:11 PM
So it's already been done right, and was a huge hit.  Let's not fiddle with a winning formula, but find another statuesque brunette and hurt some Nazis!

Your opinion on this?

(http://codecrackx15.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/wonder-woman.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 06:08:39 PM
Megan Fox is about as right as Angelina Jolie - brunette and certainly good-looking enough, but with an air to her that hints she'd do you proper if she liked, and she may be considering it.  Horny, appealing as that may be, is the wrong look for Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman is pretty thoroughly caste in nature.  I'll get to that soon.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2013, 06:16:43 PM
2) I don't know whether you saw them but there are now a series of different comics from different writers/scenarists called "Before Watchmen" and narrating the adventures of the Comedian, the first, Silk Spectre, Ozymandias, the  Minutemen, the Masked Judge, etc. I could just throw a glance at them once in a shop but they seem pretty well done (but Moore would kill anybody acknowledging that!).
Before Watchmen is a whole big conversation that I don't know is worth getting into with so few of us here that deeply invested in love of comics.  Leaving aside the whole ethics controversy, which I do not do lightly, my short take is that they've done the creatively bankrupt comics equivalent of remaking Casablanca.  Some things are just so right and complete that you don't touch them.  Also, Neil Gaiman didn't write any of it, so not worth doing even if you don't think it's remaking Citizen Kane.  I wouldn't care to see even Grant Morrison try - and no one involved in Before Watchmen was even on his level of mastery, apologies to Joe Kubert.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 15, 2013, 12:05:06 AM
And that girl doesn't have the right face for Wonderwoman methinks. Wonder Woman seems to me a bit more... stronger and bolder looking. And darker form of brunette. I always imagined Wonder Woman with near black hair to be honest.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 15, 2013, 12:09:19 AM
Blue-black, not very dark brown, and bigger hair...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Green1 on August 15, 2013, 08:20:24 AM
Okay, I will bite.

Wonder Woman is a worthless super hero.

Even Underdog from the 1960s has more use. Maybe even the Pink Panther.

Now, being an Amazon and all that is okay. But a real amazon would be more dike-ish and ready to stomp some tail. Her weapons? A lame lasso that makes folks tell the truth and indestructible bracelets that just happen to be useful if something hits your wrists? Or the lameness of an invisible jet?

Now, they did retcon her to try to "make" her cool with the whole god/goddess stuff, but still, it has no comparison to the mythology of Superman or lord forbid the deepness of Spiderman.

I think she should be made a love interest or go away. Either that, or a grittier, feral deal from the jungles.

Although the spinning 1970s transformation is classic and one of the more worthless images burned into my head.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 15, 2013, 02:09:28 PM
In Greek mythology the Amazons were seen as being incredibly desirable, so making her a butch lesbian isn't necessary to that aspect of her character.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 15, 2013, 04:43:59 PM
Now, they did retcon her to try to "make" her cool with the whole god/goddess stuff, but still, it has no comparison to the mythology of Superman or lord forbid the deepness of Spiderman.
Joke or irony?
Fact is Superman has no deepness.
He is the most one-dimensional of all super-heroes, perhaps because he was the first one (or not far from it).
He's just the boy-scout and not much more, and authors had to write some stand-alone stories to change that matter.
The mythology too is shallow: Krypton heritage? Bah! Kryptonite weakness? Always the same thing. Been there done that. Even Zak Snyder felt compelled to bring back Zod for a movie, so few are the threats to him.

I've read herds of people complaining about Smallville being crap but I liked the show. There you had a (pre-)Superman who doubted, who wonders, who loved, who failed, who was seeking answers, who had adventures...
But the usual Superman? Give me Lex Luthor instead anyday!
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 15, 2013, 05:02:19 PM
I could never get interested in Superboy the Vampire Slayer, though I tried.

And Superman?  He's the Man of Tomorrow (Jerry Siegel originally intended him to be from the far future, not Krypton); a paragon of the best in all of us - a tireless crusader for truth and justice, and more importantly, that no one ever die needlessly.

Not an easy character to write well, but if there wasn't something true and resonant about him that really speaks to people, he would have faded into obscurity long ago.  -Few remember Dr. Occult, another Siegel & Shuster creation and a fellow with powers who wore a spandex costume on one adventure two year earlier.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Sigma on August 15, 2013, 05:42:56 PM
Now, they did retcon her to try to "make" her cool with the whole god/goddess stuff, but still, it has no comparison to the mythology of Superman or lord forbid the deepness of Spiderman.
Joke or irony?
Fact is Superman has no deepness.
He is the most one-dimensional of all super-heroes, perhaps because he was the first one (or not far from it).
He's just the boy-scout and not much more, and authors had to write some stand-alone stories to change that matter.
The mythology too is shallow: Krypton heritage? Bah! Kryptonite weakness? Always the same thing. Been there done that. Even Zak Snyder felt compelled to bring back Zod for a movie, so few are the threats to him.

I've read herds of people complaining about Smallville being crap but I liked the show. There you had a (pre-)Superman who doubted, who wonders, who loved, who failed, who was seeking answers, who had adventures...
But the usual Superman? Give me Lex Luthor instead anyday!
He said "Deepness of Spider-Man."
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 15, 2013, 07:12:17 PM
He said "Deepness of Spider-Man."
Aha!  :-[  :-[  :-[  :-[  :-[
Well, I eat crow then.

That's probably because I started a post about Superman when Buncle asked for it (but it stands unfinished yet).
However what I said about Superman remains.
More later...perhaps.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 16, 2013, 04:04:56 PM
Quote
Infinity #1 Review
by Brian Cronin | August 15, 2013 @ 10:50 AM

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/infinitycover-195x300.jpg)

A quote often attributed to NHL Hall of Famer Wayne Gretzky is that you should always “skate to where the puck is going, not to where it is” (whether Gretzky ACTUALLY said it is something I dealt with in a Hockey Legends Revealed). Simply put, the quote suggests that a great hockey center like Gretzky has to always be thinking one step ahead of his opponents. He has to be able to see the entire ice rink and all the variables and then plan an attack that takes every moving part on the rink into consideration. While doing one thing he has to see where the puck will later be and plan for what will happen when he gets there. It takes a very skilled person to manage a situation like this. Jonathan Hickman is just that type of skilled person and it was fascinating watching him take this type of approach with the first issue of Infinity, Hickman’s first shot at writing a company-wide crossover (but with the high quality of this first issue, it will surely not be his last).

 Hickman has spent the last eight or so months of Avengers and New Avengers putting all of the pieces into play for Infinity, from the establishment of the powerful Builders (a threat so dire that the Avengers have to leave Earth to fight them) to the slow introduction of Thanos’ generals to the mystery of the new Captain Universe, all of it comes to bear in this first issue of Infinity.

However, what I perhaps appreciate more about this first issue than the preparation that Hickman put into it is the fact that you really did not even need to KNOW that Hickman put a ton of preparation into this story, as it works as a story on its own. Heck, the appearance (and destruction) of Galador and the Spaceknights, designed to show the might of the Builders, completely works without readers even knowing that Galador and the Spaceknights are an established part of the Marvel Universe.

The Galador sequence was pretty rough, although beautifully illustrated by Jimmy Cheung, Mark Morales and Justin Ponsor…

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/infinity1.jpg)

By the way, I was really taken aback by how well Infinity #0 flowed into the book. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m sure Hickman actually wrote the issue specifically so that #0 was part of the story before it was lopped off to be used on Free Comic Book Day, but the way that it worked on its own that day and then as a seemingly non-separate chapter today? That was very cool.

Hickman splits the book into chapters and the approach works well. It reminds me a bit of Grant Morrison’s approach on Final Crisis, where each chapter sort of works as a snapshot of a crisis while putting them all together gives you a better idea of what the actual scenario is. The series of quick chapters with powerful cliffhangers keeps the story moving and the reader constantly on edge, even while most of the issue is spent setting up the rest of the series.

The basic gist of the story is that these powerful beings, the Builders, are ravaging worlds while on a collision course for Earth. The Avengers, naturally, decide to go stop them. Meanwhile, Thanos and his crew of bad guys have a plot to stop them, which includes one of his minions sneaking into Attilan and mining Black Bolt for some information…

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/infinity2.jpg)

and then Thanos attacking Earth while it is relatively unattended. This leads to a phenomenal final page that really drives the series.

Cheung is an amazing artist, although the intentionally cramped nature of the plot (much of the issue takes place in small quarters as the heroes discover how screwed they are and the villains plot) but when he is given the chance to break loose, like the aforementioned Galador sequence (or earlier in the book when we see Thanos receive a “tribute”) he does a great job at depicting an awesome battle sequence.

My favorite page in the issue is a little touch by Hickman that only underscored the severity of the upcoming battles, Smasher (who is a member of the Shi’ar Imperial Guard) mentions the notion that the Imperial Guard has been called together, along with back-ups for each member, as the Shi’ar are clearly expecting heavy losses and therefore will need ready replacements….

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/infinity3.jpg)

It is a clever idea by Hickman that the Shi’ar would do that but more so it is a clever way of showing this situation from a sort of staid, military-esque perspective. The matter-of-factness of the discussion makes it seem all the more imposing.

A number of recent Marvel events have opened strongly only to peter out a bit over the next few issues, but I have faith that Hickman has planned this so well that we won’t see that happen here and we’ll instead get one of the best Marvel events in recent memory.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2013/08/15/infinity-1-review/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2013/08/15/infinity-1-review/)

ROM!!!
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 16, 2013, 04:32:18 PM
THANOS!!!

I thought Marvel had just leased the rights of Rom in his time (from a toy corporation) and had them given back.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 16, 2013, 04:42:55 PM
True - that's why I was surprised and pleased to see him fairly recognizable - 'spose he's wearing armor?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 19, 2013, 08:39:15 PM
Hey Green1, if you're going to talk Secret Wars, why not do it here?  I was really tempted to derail an on-topic modding thread - so let's do it here and save me the cleanup later.

Titania had one of the funniest lines in the whole series...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 20, 2013, 01:23:09 AM
Titania had one of the funniest lines in the whole series...
What was it?
I read them in French and they are not at my current location yet.

Titania... She started looking badass and kicking some and she ended in swimsuit as Molecule Man's little loving pet. Horribly disappointing!
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 20, 2013, 01:27:18 AM
No, that was Volcanna.  I always thought Owen and Marsha made a charming couple.

So, middle of a big fight, Titania is throwing bolders at a charging Wolverine.  The Absorbing Man shouts "Get 'im, Legs!"
Titania shoots back "I won't miss him.  And neither will anyone else!"

Wolverine sucks.

And that wasn't the funniest line in the miniseries...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 23, 2013, 07:32:34 PM
(http://www.emeraldcitycomicon.com/_storage/51eebbeb44c37.jpg)
http://www.emeraldcitycomicon.com/tales-from-the-con/spfx/ (http://www.emeraldcitycomicon.com/tales-from-the-con/spfx/)
 ;lol
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 25, 2013, 07:48:39 PM
For Valka:

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/line8-23-1-620x749.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 25, 2013, 07:50:27 PM
For Valka and Vishniac:

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/line8-23-5-620x826.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 25, 2013, 08:28:24 PM
Deleted
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 25, 2013, 08:47:14 PM
There isn't yet.  Please make one.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 01:55:53 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 02:35:54 AM
Absolutely; you may express your wishes as OP, and they will be honored.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 02:48:53 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 26, 2013, 03:02:21 AM
Not one for cats personally. More of a dog man.


Though, do Walruses count for posting? I have Walrus, many Walrus.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 03:14:37 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 26, 2013, 03:36:21 AM
This thread didn't really have rails to begin with  ;lol
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 03:42:22 AM
Valka, Jarl is an actual Russian communist, and what he just said is 100% correct.  No rails.

Start a lolcat thread anyway.  You know you want to...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 04:01:55 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 04:04:53 AM
Last night.  I got an idea.

I'll change it for you everyday if you like and supply me with avatars...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 04:39:19 AM
Deleted
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 04:58:11 AM
They are if they work when I install them.  We don't have rules that make things unfun.  Larger than 80x80 will be auto-reduced, so if you have a 100x100 with a transparent background, I would have to make a reduced copy to keep the forum from ruining it, but that's no sweat.

Avatars are my signature piece of community art fun, and if it can be made to work, I probably can.

No pron or yucky, please.  ;)


Oh - and I do smilies, too...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 05:02:42 AM
KITTEH smilies, potentially...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 05:07:00 AM
I don't do NSFW avatars. Mind you, there was one that practically made somebody at my Crystal Unicorn forum fall out of his chair in shock (honestly, everything that legally had to be covered was...)  :D

I enjoy making avatars from the characters in my Hoyle computer games (using the Face Maker feature), various dollz pictures I've made over the years, and I belong to a forum that's all about smileys. I used to be known at CFC for my Spud smileys - especially the potato riding a motorcycle. In fact, CivGeneral, one of the artists in the Draw Your Own Story group in the A&E forum there, gave Spud a cameo in one of his stories. :)


You want cat smileys? I can definitely find some. I've got a bunch stashed away in my Photobucket account, and know where to find more.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 05:30:05 AM
Want?  Gosh, I'm a bad internet nerd for this, but I'm not even a cat person.

I was thinking about offering to knock some up for you and put them in an album you could img link from.  But come to think of it, you didn't care for my basic set, so maybe not - however, our albums work, and you could do that with whatever you wanted.

Making them, I've got nailed down - but the forum software isn't designed with adding one at a time in mind.  But if you turned up a whole set, I could upload the set, make it a selectable option and you could be seeing kittehs everywhere...  At least I hope so; tech is not my function here, and the owner is in RL time heck.

(Made a Mormon smilie once for a friend - instead of a motorcycle doing a wheelie and riding off, two clean-cut young men do wheelies on their bicycles...)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 06:03:41 AM
I've got lots of other sets - dogs, dragons, bunnies, several Spud sets (ie. "couch potatoes")... Spud is a bigger-than-normal smiley, but he's cute!

I see also that you've got some Fool smileys (made by the smiley artist known as Fool), and some Koloboks (made by Aiwan and some of the people at his site).

I've got access to some nifty Doctor Who ones - a full set of Tom Baker (the one with the scarf), K-9, a few Daleks, some Cybermen...

I'm not saying I don't like all the set you made... it's just that the huge black eyes creep me out a little (sorry, no offense intended  :( ).
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 06:11:30 AM
I'll live.

I think Who smilies might be real popular...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 09:21:55 AM
Here are a few samples of Whovian smileys I have:

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/vox_stellaris/Doctor%20Who/Smileys/animatedK9.gif)

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/vox_stellaris/Doctor%20Who/Smileys/cybermat-sad.gif)

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/vox_stellaris/Doctor%20Who/Smileys/4thdochat_zps03d55674.gif)

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/vox_stellaris/Doctor%20Who/Smileys/4docbiggrin_zpsa50dc929.gif)

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/vox_stellaris/Doctor%20Who/Smileys/Camilla-daleksmiley1.gif)


Do any of these appeal? I have large sets of the K-9 and Cybermat, and the large Invision-style of Doctor. The bottom Dalek smiley was made by Camilla Eriksson, and she has a few Whovian smileys, but no sets. She's also got a few Star Trek and Star Wars ones.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 03:04:50 PM
They have appeal.  All we have now is  ;spock and  ;leia.

Hmm.  Maybe an SF set w/the space kitchen sink thrown in.  I need to look into how the smilie 'sets' are arranged/look, 'cause as I said before, the software is set up on the assumption you'll upload whole sets at once, and it's awkward and overwrites other sets when you do it piecemeal.

We'd need SF versions of at least the lineup that goes over the reply box, except the AC leaderheads, which already are the SF version.

-Also, sisko and I agree that the popup box smilies can be a zoo, so I can just add a few there if there's demand.


If I can make time today, I'm thinking I'll have a look at reducing the eyes on :)...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 05:10:12 PM
Well... I guess we could poach a few Star Trek ones from TrekBBS. They have a Klingon, Cardassian, Vulcan that looks like Tuvok with green skin, Borg, and a few others. I've got a Tribble - one that moves and one that just stays still.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 05:25:04 PM
Well, you can look into that at your leisure and I need to learn more about sets - in the meanwhile, if there's anything you feel really strongly about, I can add a Who or two and a kitteh or two -or a few of whatever- to the box zoo, right now, today, no sweat. 

We'll worry about too many smilies when we have too many, and meanwhile, we don't care to be stingy with that kind of forum goody if anyone really wants it.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 05:28:18 PM
I have to admit, I'm addicted to smileys. There can never be too many, unless the forum software says so...  :D
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 05:34:07 PM
There can be too many, or at least so badly organized, that it's way too much work for the user to find what she's looking for. 

The main reason they let me on staff at the Pond was to organize the smilies.  I started an OT thread and solicited input, observing the forms of democracy and trying to avoid killing anyone's favorites, but I held veto (which Solver then told me was doing it exactly right, observing the forms, but maintaining executive authority) and clean up smilietown, I did, my new sheriff's hat firmly in place.

However, I'm inclined to indulge you shamelessly, and burn the too many smilies bridge only should I come to it. ;b;
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 05:46:35 PM
Is there a firm limit? That way I'd be better able to pick and choose which ones to submit, since I do realize that I've got my favorites, but they're not necessarily really popular.

Next question: What is the limit on the number of smileys we can use in a single post? The reason I ask this is because at a forum I belonged to a long time ago, we had a "tell a story using smileys" thread. It was like a game thread, with people trying to figure out which story the poster was trying to tell, or at least interpreting the action to make a coherent story.

Edit: Also, some people created some really nifty "smiley art" posts. :)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 06:02:24 PM
I think there's a 20,000 character limit on posts, and I'd have to think about any policy-imposed limits - and would rather just rule on things as they come up.  I'd love to see some fun with smiles posting, mind you.  This forum is here for you to have a good time, and any limits on that are only for everyone to have a good time, which hasn't really come up in the last 1.5 years.

So have a party - try to prioritize your wants clearly for my benefit, but I said I'd indulge you - let's try to start slow, though, with a few you want most, and maybe not double the size of the zoo all today.  Five, I won't even blink at.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on August 26, 2013, 06:33:03 PM
I have to admit, I'm addicted to smileys. There can never be too many, unless the forum software says so...  :D

;b;


(BUncle, about time there's a 'reason for edit' window on the forum, your editing starts to feel like the first politics option in SMAC)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on August 26, 2013, 06:47:56 PM
Suggestion: For a sneaky action, could you make a GIF of Solid Snake perhaps, from the Sony Playstation game, Metal Gear Solid?

Maybe something like this?

(http://www.freewebs.com/jaky2008/photos/Games/Snake%20Animation.gif)

Also, just to give more idea's.

(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/40658/820063-solid_snake_by_kandoken.jpg)
(http://assets.network.roadrunnerrecords.com/system/users/avatars/141742/full_Mgs-solid-snake.jpg)
(http://gamesareevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Metal_Gear_Solid_Snake_Box_Stealth-300x240.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 06:56:26 PM
An animated .gif's surely a lot of frames to reduce, and I have my doubts about it looking like much at a reasonably small size, but if you really really want it, I'll put that on my to-do list.  I'll need a smilie code.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 26, 2013, 07:26:32 PM
They have appeal.  All we have now is  ;spock and  ;leia.
...(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/porte-des-etoiles.gif)...(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/stargate-ouvre-porte-585.gif)...(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/stargate-porte-des-etoiles-584.gif)...(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/stargate-tealc-013.gif)...(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/stargate009.gif)...(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/stargate7.gif)...(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Films_et_TV/stargate6.gif)

Speaking of Leia:
I once knew a girl who was earning money during her studies by being a...lady of company  ;)
As she had long breads, I said to her "You could roll them like Princess Leia in Star Wars"
The day after, she messaged me: "Thanks a lot: Princess Leia has a lot of success!"  8)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 07:29:12 PM
 ;rotflmao
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 07:46:06 PM
These are a few of Millan's Star Wars smileys (yeah, I know two of them are more suited for avatars, given their size).

(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/yoda1.gif) (http://www.millan.net)

(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/yabbahut1.gif) (http://www.millan.net)

(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/gaspump.gif) (http://www.millan.net)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 08:04:17 PM
An animated .gif's surely a lot of frames to reduce, and I have my doubts about it looking like much at a reasonably small size, but if you really really want it, I'll put that on my to-do list.  I'll need a smilie code.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 08:20:08 PM
I'm not personally into Star Wars to the extent that I need SW smileys (other folks might like them, though). I'm just showing people what kinds of smileys are available, since I've had extensive exposure to some of the most prolific smiley artists through the forum I belong to.

If anyone is interested in checking out Millan's smileys, here is the address: http://www.millan.net/ (http://www.millan.net/) Clicking Smileys under Popular Links will take you to her smileys.

Some of her images are available to use for free; others are reserved for paid subscribers. Since I happen to be one of those paid subscribers...  :D
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 08:23:40 PM
I don't think anyone who's been on a forum for a whole day isn't aware of there being a lot of SW smilies around.

In this, I WILL indulge myself a little and be that much of a jerk; I'm not going to install more SW smilies than ST ones...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 09:05:19 PM
Does this iteration of the basic smilie creep out less?

That's :) v. (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3994.0;attach=6237)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 09:29:03 PM
That's much better!
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 09:30:13 PM
Going to swap it in right now.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 28, 2013, 12:51:19 AM
(BUncle, about time there's a 'reason for edit' window on the forum, your editing starts to feel like the first politics option in SMAC)
Housekeeping again, to add a bracket and make the quote display right.  I wish there was a reason box, but SMF forum software don't have one, AFAIK.  I've never edited you for fun, and would always post a reason if it was feasible.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 05:15:26 AM
(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/line8-30-12-620x906.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on August 31, 2013, 09:29:51 AM
 :o
...
 ???

What's that?!?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 01:05:27 PM
It's a joke I saw somewhere.  You know Powerman and the Fist, yes?  Those two gentlemen on the poster did a number of buddy comedies together, so...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2013, 04:54:04 PM
(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/line9-6-7-620x916.jpg)

-Cap was making with the round shield by the time he was working with Bucky, and I am a nerd for even noticing and more of one for pointing it out...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on September 07, 2013, 10:50:29 PM
Is that a tank with a RED star? Do I smell Soviet involvement in this comic or is this just artistic liberties being used?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2013, 11:00:09 PM
She's unmistakably whooping Nazis and the art style is retro, which together says Great Patriotic War, so that must be our Noble Soviet Allies moving up in support of the western special agents...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 08, 2013, 09:55:04 AM
Oh those romantic Russians. Always comin' to the aid of a damsel in distress.  :D
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on September 08, 2013, 03:28:10 PM
That actually could be a pretty cool comic idea.... a comic of a Russian tank crew.

I could imagine it now, the driver is a lovesick romantic, the ammunition loader is a grizzled cynic that has a drinking problem, the spotter is a jumpy mouse of a man that has sinus issues and the tank commander is woman who is losing their voice from yelling orders so much and just wants to relax and smoke a nice drag out of the cold.

Driving a ramshackle half painted T-34 or maybe even a lend lease Valentine or something.



Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 08, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
I like it.  Are you familiar with the US war comic feature The Haunted Tank?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on September 08, 2013, 04:01:11 PM
I'm afraid not. I heard of it, never read it myself though...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 03:03:33 AM
I would like these smilies
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 03:08:48 AM
BU, you might like these...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 03:11:26 AM
... and these were just really elaborate and cool... not necessarily very useful, though...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 03:13:54 AM
I would like these smilies
Gimme :codes: . 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 03:15:51 AM
... and one more elaborate and cool if not useful group...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 03:31:20 AM
;llap

Hit Quote to see the code I made up...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on September 09, 2013, 03:39:16 AM
;llap

Hit Quote to see the code I made up...
I don't see a code. Is there a way to exit out of WYSIWYG?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 03:50:38 AM
;llap

Hit Quote to see the code I made up...
I don't see a code. Is there a way to exit out of WYSIWYG?
End of the row immediately over the leaderhead smiles, right-hand.  Button should look like a pointer in red brackets.  Hovertexts "Toggle View".
-Incidentally, I can install secret smilies by making them hidden - not on any menu, appearing with a code you've memorized and keyed in...
 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on September 09, 2013, 04:29:02 AM
;llap

Hit Quote to see the code I made up...
I don't see a code. Is there a way to exit out of WYSIWYG?
End of the row immediately over the leaderhead smiles, right-hand.  Button should look like a pointer in red brackets.  Hovertexts "Toggle View".
-Incidentally, I can install secret smilies by making them hidden - not on any menu, appearing with a code you've memorized and keyed in...
Okay, I see it now.

You mean we could have a kind of personal smiley that nobody else knows the code to? Wouldn't that show up when the post is quoted and the poster is using this view?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:01:03 AM
Yes.

But I doubt they'd remember for long.  You could come up with a code that's longish and gibberish...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on September 09, 2013, 05:03:58 AM
But then I wouldn't be able to remember it!  :-\
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:09:03 AM
[shrugs]  Best I can do you - but I would have about zero standards for installing smilies that wouldn't even clutter the zoo...

I don't think you've chosen your four that would show.  Point me at 'em and think up codes; I recommend a semicolon and all lower-case as the most ergonomic codes, as then you don't have to reach for the shift key...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 05:13:58 AM
How about this one?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:31:48 AM
I like it.  Pick your three remaining smilies and make up codes, and I'll hook you up.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:33:09 AM
P.S.  Finally found it again.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 05:42:15 AM
That's Diego all right!
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:45:57 AM
That's him four years ago.

Choose your four public smilies, ladies.  You can change your minds at any time - so long as it's not constantly.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on September 09, 2013, 06:05:39 AM
I'll need to check my smiley collections. I've been gathering quite a lot of them over the years. :D
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 06:14:23 AM
Me too - and made a lot.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 07:13:59 AM
And I've indulged myself one of the latter, given current events.  Check the hovertext...

;modban
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on September 09, 2013, 07:20:08 AM
And I've indulged myself one of the latter, given current events.  Check the hovertext...

 ;modban
*snicker*
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on September 09, 2013, 08:51:42 AM
And I've indulged myself one of the latter, given current events.  Check the hovertext...

;modban
Give him at least the hair and the helmet of THOR!
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on September 09, 2013, 08:53:29 AM
And better yet, a beard. BUncle, accept your beard with pride, for it is mighty.

Seriously, this Mustached man respects that beard.

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 03:05:16 PM
;lol
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 05:16:59 PM
And I've indulged myself one of the latter, given current events.  Check the hovertext...

It's a black bar?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
It should be a song lyric.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 05:19:43 PM
Not at my end.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: BU Admin on September 09, 2013, 05:28:09 PM
Works in my versions of IE and Chrome...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:31:59 PM
...Should I substitute Thor up there for ;modban ?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:46:39 PM
Did a little tweaking...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 06:11:16 PM
Works in my versions of IE and Chrome...

I'm a Firefoxian.
But now it shows as you described.  :dunno:
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 07:17:10 PM
Meanwhile, what's installed is a quick and dirty reduction of an early work reduced to a more reasonable size without much fixing up.  Here it is reworked to conform to my current house style.  This or Thor?

;modban
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 08:15:28 PM
Doesn't Thor reminds you too much to taht ohter palce?  :P
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 08:32:44 PM
Why would it?  I made that for El Cid, and I got nothin' against Cid.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 08:33:56 PM
Too bad there isn't a :cute: smilie here.  :-\
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 08:35:36 PM
Should I do something about it?
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 09:09:24 PM
If I really really want to make the effort, I could upload one to my photobucket account, and use it from there (like I did with the :rockon: smilie the other day).
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 09:13:20 PM
I will put up a ;cute on your say-so, if you want, and add ;rockon, too.

I have everything ever installed at the Pond saved from when I was Sheriff of Smilietown; I optimized and cleaned up a lot of them...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 02:15:37 AM
CHOOSE...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Valka on September 10, 2013, 02:17:06 AM
I like the top one.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 02:20:44 AM
;rockon
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on September 10, 2013, 09:00:26 AM
About Thor: the best would be to have him with the "BANNED" banner appearing too.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 04:34:32 PM
I guess I could add a frame if there's a consensus...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 10, 2013, 05:10:15 PM
I like the top one.
CHOOSE...

I like an animated one.

:cute:
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 05:12:03 PM
I posted TWO animated ones. (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3994.0;attach=7046) (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3994.0;attach=7047)
CHOOSE...
Or I just go with the yellow one.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 10, 2013, 05:13:43 PM
Oh. They didn't animate when I was watching them first.
Checking...

EDIT: yes, now they do. Weird. Or else I'm losing my marbles. (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3994.0;attach=7046)
Top one (yellow) is perfect.  ;b;
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 05:17:25 PM
Installing now...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 05:19:35 PM
;cute
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 10, 2013, 05:21:17 PM
;cute

/me reserves a special place in "heaven" for BUncle.  :mad: ::)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 05:24:32 PM
 :D
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Unorthodox on September 10, 2013, 05:27:03 PM
;cute

 ;lol
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 05:29:05 PM
I can change the hovertext if anyone actually cares, but I suggest taking that as an honor.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Geo on September 10, 2013, 06:12:33 PM
Yeah, well, I learned my lesson about making requests to you.  ::)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
What?  I needed a hovertext and decided to go with a joke.

Jokes are fun.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 06:40:30 PM
Quote
Men dressed as Batman, Capt. America rescue cat
Updated 7:24 am, Tuesday, September 10, 2013
     

MILTON, W.Va. (AP) — Who says superheroes aren't real?

When a West Virginia home caught fire, trapping a kitten inside, it was Batman and Captain America who came to the rescue.

John Buckland, dressed as Batman, and Troy Marcum, dressed as Captain America, saw smoke at a house nearby when they were entertaining children as part of their business. They ran to the house along with another bystander, kicked in the door and broke out a window so some smoke could escape.

Buckland, a former firefighter, says he crawled into the front room and felt something furry. He grabbed the animal, ran outside and gave it mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.

No one was hurt in the fire, including the rescuers — though Buckland says the cat hissed and swatted at him when it regained consciousness.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Men-dressed-as-Batman-Capt-America-rescue-cat-4798824.php (http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Men-dressed-as-Batman-Capt-America-rescue-cat-4798824.php)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Unorthodox on September 10, 2013, 08:25:11 PM
Isn't kicking out the window to let more oxygen in a generally bad idea? 
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 10, 2013, 08:30:45 PM
It is when the fire is far enough along - this must not have been, because two guys, wrapped in no doubt petroleum-base fabrics, chose to rush inside...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on October 09, 2013, 08:28:19 PM
The thread talked about Wonder Woman someday. Here are some things I have found on another forum:

News (or more accurately: no news!)
Quote
Wonder Woman Is A Priority At Warner Bros

While Marvel Studios has spent the last five years growing a cinematic universe with a diverse group of comic book heroes like Iron Man, Thor, Captain America and Hulk, DC and Warner Bros. are left playing catch-up. As we've discussed at length, Superman and Batman are finally going to come together in the same movie for the first time in Zack Snyder's untitled Man of Steel sequel, but what else does the studio have cooking? According to Warner Bros. CEO Kevin Tsujihara, one of the primary goals is finally getting something going with Wonder Woman.
 
Unfortunately, specific details about those goals seem to be in a state of flux. The Hollywood Reporter was present for an entertainment law conference this past weekend and during the proceedings Tsujihara said that the studio is prioritizing some kind of Wonder Woman project, but that at this time what that project will be is unknown. Noting the studio's lack of superhero movies outside of Batman and Superman as "missed opportunity," the executive said that there are "huge plans for a number of other DC properties on TV" and that they "need to get Wonder Woman on the big screen or TV."
 
It's not hard to see why Warner Bros. would want to prioritize a female superhero movie. Marvel's main line-up right now is entirely populated by white dudes, with Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow being the only female of the entire Avengers team. Putting the spotlight on Wonder Woman would be an opportunity to both make long time comic book fans happy and possibly bring in a larger female audience.
 
The trick, however, is making a Wonder Woman movie or TV series that is actually worth watching. The studio has actually been trying to do something with the Amazonian warrior on the big screen for years now - famously rejecting a version by Joss Whedon - but has never been able to get anything made. On the small screen there is of course the famous Linda Carter series from the 1970s, but more recently there was the David E. Kelley version that notoriously never made it past the pilot stage.
 
If the upcoming Batman/Superman movie results in the creation of a larger DC Cinematic Universe that includes all of the members of the Justice League then we can certainly expect that Wonder Woman will eventually get her chance on the big screen, but when that might actually happen is a big question mark at this stage. With Green Arrow, The Flash, and now Gotham City finding a home on television now, however, could a TV series be the better way to go presently?
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Wonder-Woman-Priority-Warner-Bros-39717.html (http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Wonder-Woman-Priority-Warner-Bros-39717.html)

And a fan-made trailer:
Wonder Woman // a short by Rainfall Films (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XATiV3gmy-Q#)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 10, 2013, 03:26:17 AM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/a0f67881cc6da430e0cadb5c56d8fe9f/tumblr_mojyklvQei1qj4nfso1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 14, 2013, 05:24:33 PM
Quote
NYCC: Quesada, Young, Cassaday Art Caps Marvel's Gaiman/Miracleman Announcement
          Sat, October 12th, 2013 at 1:47pm PDT                       |             Updated: 1 hour ago                   (http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/images/features/nycc-exclusive-quesada-art-caps-marvels-gaimanmiracleman-announc.jpg)
 Stephen Gerding, Senior Editor (http://www.comicbookresources.com/author/stephen-gerding)
                     
During Marvel Comics' (http://marvel.com/) traditional Cup o' Joe panel, Chief Creative Officer Joe Quesada (http://www.comicbookresources.com/tag/joe+quesada) made the announcement people have been waiting to hear for years: Miracleman is coming.

"Miracleman #25 has been sitting in the darkness, nobody’s seen it," Neil Gaiman told a cheering New York Comic Con crowd in a taped video message. "I love the idea that it’s finally going to be seen. The writer called the project the "big, incomplete book of my life," announcing Marvel’s intention to bring the material back into print, finally finishing his and artist Mark Buckingham's story

After the video, Quesada told the still excited crowd that Miracleman's return, starting with the long out of print material and culminating in the ending of Gaiman's incomplete arc, will begin in January 2014.

(http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613033.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613033) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613035.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613035) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613223.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613223) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613225.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613225) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613234.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613234) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613236.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613236)(http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613264.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613264) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/thumbnail.php?file=/assets/images/articles/1381613329.jpg&h=200) (http://www.comicbookresources.com/prev_img.php?disp=img&pid=1381613329)
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=48467 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=48467)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on October 15, 2013, 05:19:39 PM
Never heard of
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 15, 2013, 05:22:25 PM
Oh man, you have missed out.  Alan Moore had Captain Marvel come into more or less the real world.  You MUST track down and read.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 16, 2013, 12:07:25 AM
Quote
Superman to Asterix: Comics tell immigrant story
Associated Press
By THOMAS ADAMSON 14 hours ago


(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/..y0Gs9__SPjmeJ8qYU.GQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTY4MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/940f1909a7b43122400f6a706700a1da.jpg)
A painter works during the preparation of an exhibition on Comics and Immigration at the Museum of the History of Immigration in Paris, Monday Oct. 14, 2013. The exhibition takes place from Oct. 16 to April 27, 2014. Visible at right are two figures by French comics artist Herve Barulea, also called Baru. Tracing comic sketches and magazines from 1913 to the present day from the U.S. to France, the exhibit shows how the immigrant story -from Asterix's "foreign" Polish and Italian authors, to Superman's Eastern European creator- hugely shaped comic books, from their characters to their storylines.(AP Photo/Remy de la Mauviniere)


     
PARIS (AP) — Superman and Asterix have more in common than meets the eye, according to a new exhibit at Paris' Immigration History Museum.

Comic sketches and magazines from 1913 to the present show how comic books the world over were shaped by the immigrant story, from French Asterix's "foreign" Polish and Italian authors, to American Superman's Eastern European co-creators.

Drawing on 500 sketches and documents from some 117 artists, the exhibit opening Wednesday explains how immigrants on the fringes of society were attracted to the subculture of comic books.

"The whole history of comic books is the history of immigration," said curator Helene Bouillon.

Comic characters themselves are also often masked allegories for being foreign, from Asterix, the yellow-haired Gaul who fights Romans and travels around the world, to the alien Kal-El, who tries to live on earth among humans despite his super powers, the exhibit argues.


(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/SVEkGXqz17zjaClNSVcAdQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTU5ODtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/3ef08d61a7b93122400f6a7067009a0e.jpg)
A painting by Iranian born French comics artist and film director Marjane Satrapi


"Superman is the super immigrant. who comes from planet Krypton with super powers but who is faced with the feeling of being in exile" Bouillon said.

The exhibit also shows how the medium became more serious in the second half of the 20th century, using the medium to express uncomfortable truths about society's tolerance.

It includes original illustrations from Iran-born cartoonist Marjane Satrapi's autobiographical novel "Persepolis," which tells the bleak story of a young girl fleeing to Europe against the backdrop of the Iranian Revolution. A film based on the novel won the Jury Prize at the Cannes film festival in 2007.

"This idea of pictures being maybe simpler or being caricatures allows some authors to say things that would maybe be too awful to put in a novel or in photography," Bouillon said. "You have to make people laugh to accept the very difficult stories."


(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/xbAG7nncIXNrIWMO8k4VIQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTYzOTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/446c3963a7b43122400f6a7067006231.jpg)
Detail of a drawing by American comics artist Richard Felton Outcault: The Yellow Kid
http://news.yahoo.com/superman-asterix-comics-tell-immigrant-story-081955917.html (http://news.yahoo.com/superman-asterix-comics-tell-immigrant-story-081955917.html)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 16, 2013, 06:48:02 PM
(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/line11-29-5-620x837.jpg)

(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/line11-29-10-620x958.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 18, 2013, 05:17:39 PM
(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/line10-18-6-620x620.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 28, 2013, 11:04:13 PM
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj615/Silverager1969/480-1.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on October 29, 2013, 03:26:29 AM
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj615/Silverager1969/480-1.jpg)

The best match-up idea in the history of ever...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 29, 2013, 04:01:29 AM
No, the best matchup would have Hellcow v. The Man-Eating Cow...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Mylochka on October 29, 2013, 04:02:56 AM
No, the best matchup would have Hellcow v. The Man-Eating Cow...

Yes.  Officiated by Bova the She-Cow, of course...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 29, 2013, 04:08:23 AM
I'm not absolutely sure Bova and HellCow never met, so that might not be fair...

-These are all actual comics characters, folks.
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2013, 04:56:39 PM
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/91032aa19f5772ca65f83753a491a32c/tumblr_mv0ydi57991qz9ew8o1_500.png)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Vishniac on December 08, 2013, 12:28:35 PM
Actress Gal Gadot announced to be officially the next Wonder Woman.

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 10, 2013, 08:10:47 PM
http://www.lotsoftinyrobots.com/2012/07/yahweh-or-dr-doom.html (http://www.lotsoftinyrobots.com/2012/07/yahweh-or-dr-doom.html)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 02, 2014, 02:36:23 AM
So this morning, for the millionth time, I saw an infamous Rob Liefeld panel of Captain America posted somewhere.  On a whim, I saved a copy (see the first attachment) and did a little fiddling to see about fixing the bad anatomy and perspective.

I'm reasonably satisfied with the results of an hour's tweaking.  Cap's too bulky and the perspective's still not quite there, but It's certainly an improvement...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on February 02, 2014, 08:27:07 AM
Looks like Captain America really let himself go...  ;lol

Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
Dark Knight Returns Batman meets Batman: TAS  8)
(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/line2-28-14.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 08, 2014, 11:04:45 PM
Alex Ross does Archie all creepy...

(http://t.co/L0tC0pjuNq)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: JarlWolf on April 08, 2014, 11:15:31 PM
I feel like they are staring into my soul  :o
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 08, 2014, 11:48:46 PM
It kinda works for Betty, but no one else - even though Jughead is the best likeness...
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 19, 2014, 10:10:38 PM
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/e99f9873bd2a4da7a6f2a19ba6e5530a/tumblr_n46pwttK8s1rbkzyyo1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 19, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
I feel like they are staring into my soul  :o
Also, that's Alex Ross for you; sometimes he paints the most kick-butt comic book stuff conceivable in the entire world, but sometimes he's all wrinkled costumes, erections showing and double chins -plus the creepyness above- and it's incredibly off-putting.
Title: Alan Moore's Electricomics promises to reinvent the medium, but not too much
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 07, 2014, 04:50:18 PM
Alan Moore's Electricomics promises to reinvent the medium, but not too much
Engadget
BY Sean Buckley  @seaniccus  June 7th 2014, at 7:27:00 am ET


(http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/GLOB/crop/4110x2839+0+262/resize/630x435!/format/jpg/quality/85/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/midas/ea9676a23f21815065102b92616cad1/200244173/CD9T89.jpg)



If you've seen V for Vendetta, Watchmen or even The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, you've encountered the work of Alan Moore. He's one of the comic industry's most prolific and influential authors, and now he's trying to take the medium into the modern era. Moore is building a digital comics app designed to serve as both comic itself and a collection of open-source tools for creating the next generation of digital comics. The project, due for launch in early next year, is called Electricomics -- but don't expect books published on the platform to be animated or overly interactive: Moore insists that adding digital effects to comics won't make them better.

"It's a very well developed technology and it's very difficult to add to or reproduce comics in a more elegant way," Moore tells The Guardian, speaking of the comics medium as it exists today as its own 'technology.' When Electricomics launches, it'll include a 32-page collection of stories showcasing what comics can be in a digital medium, and Moore wants to keep it simple. "Avoiding whistles and bells would be one of the first tenets that digital comics should try to stick to," he says, explaining that the gimmick of animated effects doesn't necessarily convey a scene better than still art.


(http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/e14b6f2250a4796972b847d74048b1fb/200079103/Image_Comic_lead.jpg)


Although Moore wants to keep the comics medium unsullied by the temptations of new technology, he admits we can do more with digital comics than we're doing now. Still, he admits he's not exactly an expert in the medium's digital offerings as they exist today. "I've got absolutely no idea because I don't have any online capacity," he said. Moore told The Guardian that he doesn't have any "devices or tablets," and that he doesn't keep up with the comics scene these days. Even so, he wants Electricomics' tools to give creators the same flexibility as paper while opening the medium to the new possibilities. He also hopes the platform will make the medium more appealing to today's youth.

 "Kids avoid these things like the plague," he told The Guardian, teasing the industry's tendency to pander to adults that grew up reading comics. "Why would a 13-year old bother reading a comic book when they have these different devices and the comics are being made not for them, but for 40 to 60 year-olds?" Moore hopes the app will give new creators a chance to break away form the superhero comics too, accusing the mainstream genre of being uncreative and dated. "Nothing lasts forever." Unfortunately, we won't know if Moore's digital comics vision will pay off until 2015. Check out The Guardian for the full interview.

[Image Credit: ZUMA Press, Inc. / Alamy]


http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/07/alan-moore-comics-app/ (http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/07/alan-moore-comics-app/)
Title: Re: SMAX... that blue guy in TOP 10, right?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 12, 2014, 11:12:24 PM
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