Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: ete on August 02, 2013, 04:19:29 PM

Title: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 02, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
I've mostly set up the text files for my first original faction which will be the big bad of my AAR/maybe GOTM thing and would like some comments.


Plus they start with the Manifold Harmonics in their HQ.

Idea is: Extremely powerful faction with massive native army (roughly same size as AntiMind's, but without the +50% Psi bonus and 10% less from the Planet bonus) that also has massive production and growth, but limited research ability and limited ability to use energy effectively. Basically, they're amazing with Minerals (GJ, fungus Mins from MH), pretty excellent with Nutrients (size 12 bases available at the start, fungus nuts from MH), but despite collecting a ton of energy (+2 per square from MH) they can't get much out of it (Spheres halve tech, and they need five times the research or energy to do most things) so won't run away with a tech advantage, which is fine because Native armies don't need tech.

Worries: They'll roll over everyone near them too quickly. Hopefully CV Hive in a good starting spot (not too much fungus) can hold their own, and the 200% attack Usurpers.. may need more of a bonus to avoid dying. Will test it.

I have one slot left for the 8 limited bonuses, not sure what to use it for yet. Maybe a Morale penalty so their conventional troops are poor? Suggestions appreciated.

Full text file:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Annihlators
Post by: Sigma on August 02, 2013, 04:30:44 PM
Hahaha some of those diplomacy sentences are utter gold.

"Think of how this could benefit your preparations for annihilation of all sentient life"

Actually that would read better as "preparations for annihilating all sentient life."

Your TXT has some contradictions, however:

Politics, Fundamentalist, GROWTH,
Politics, Fundamentalist, nil,

This means that their chosen ideology is Fundamentalist, but it's also their Anti-Ideology so they can't pick it. Unless those two choices cancel out.
Title: Re: The Annihlators
Post by: ete on August 02, 2013, 05:26:23 PM
Thanks, I had fun with those. Good suggestion there, editing.

The Fundy as both thing is intentional, though I'm not certain about using it. The idea was to make them as aggressive as possible by making them hate anyone who either uses or does not use fundy, though I'm not sure how that will work out. Maybe I'll make them pro police state or thought control and anti Green and just give every other faction the flag which makes them want to kill the Annihlators.

I did a quick test run without the Manifold Harmonics, and amusingly enough, these guys are having trouble with vanilla factions. Because they started right in the center of a triangle of Sparta, the Hive, and Miriam without much fungus for worm farming, and are getting attacked by all three at once. They are holding their own, have build more bases than the other three combined and almost killed sparta, but are falling far behind in tech (not got lazers yet and they're fighting impact rovers) and are not able to get a huge worm army because there's not much fungus to explore. Also, Lal started on his own in a big area of jungle and is flying ahead in the power graph.
Title: Re: The Annihlators
Post by: ete on August 02, 2013, 07:33:29 PM
Making the techshare not require infiltrator, infiltrating four factions early is not something the AI does easily. Maybe will drop it to techshare 5 from 4 to compensate.
Title: Re: The Annihlators
Post by: Sigma on August 02, 2013, 07:41:09 PM
I noticed you have Sharetech, 0, and Techshare, 4, both on there. Is that a mistake?
Title: Re: The Annihlators
Post by: ete on August 02, 2013, 09:51:04 PM
SHARETECH, 0, should mean it requires infiltration and TECHSHARE, 1, should mean one faction needs to have it before you get it, though it does not seem to be working correctly in tests with roze.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 03, 2013, 02:17:44 AM
Added text and graphics (thanks BU) as attachments.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 03, 2013, 11:48:04 PM
going to use this thread to talk about the annihilators.

I ran a test: Antimind, my Exterminatus (beta), Marr, Caretakers, Zak, Yang, and the Annihilators.

Thing I think that makes Antimind so fearsome is it uses that fungus bonus to rush i have noticed. Holds its own.

But then again, Marr with 4x bonus IS pretty unstoppable.

Yang is a strong AI and can 1v1 regular aliens most situations.

I did not finish to conclusion, but Yang and Zak combined were putting the hurt on your dude. But.. it was not easy.

I am going to run one more test.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 04, 2013, 12:11:07 AM
Bear in mind I'm giving it the Manifold Harmonics from the start in my AAR, which makes fungus perhaps better than forest once you have Centauri Ecology (2/1/2) and Monoliths amazing (3/3/4). I'm reconsidering doing bonuses by SPs though, I may move it to fungal resource bonuses, but I'd have to remove a few others to make room.

Also, I'm considering lowering the Research penalty significantly and adding in a Psi Combat bonus for my AAR. I'll try and make a more balanced version at some point, but for now let's turn up the power :D
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 12:16:54 AM
ete, I'd be curious to have you playtest the Mindworms With Minds.  They're along similar thematic lines to the Annihilators, and rather overpowered at what I gather is a similar magnitude.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 04, 2013, 01:23:39 AM
I have not yet, do need to get around to adding more factions to the index and setting them up with my game at some point. I've added that one for now: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Mindworms_with_Minds (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Mindworms_with_Minds) if anyone wants to check the stats.

It looks like the AntiMind on steroids, no Indust or Econ penalty, bigger Planet and double the Psi bonus, +2 Mins on fungus naturally and starts with a load of techs which boost fungus production to insane levels (4/3/3 on all fungus once you get Cent Ecology, 3/3/3 from the start), size 16 bases with no hab complex, all for the cost of double research cost. Maybe I'm being too restrained with my faction.

Flavorwise it also seems more like the AntiMind than the Annihilators, pro-native vs. destroy all life including Planet.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 01:28:33 AM
True.  I enjoy it for a dirty, dirty, cheat game.

I can accept neither blame nor credit for anything but the art on that one.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 04, 2013, 01:30:50 AM
I'll probably run a test tomorrow dropping the stats of MwM into the Annihilator faction and see how quickly it rolls all the other horribly broken factions.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: ete on August 04, 2013, 01:30:50 AM
see how quickly it rolls all the other horribly broken factions.
;D  My thoughts, exactly.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 04, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
Second test:

Anihilators knocked out early by stock Caretakers and Exterminatus. You were the recipient of the AI/ spore launcher bug where a base just sits there turn after turn building troops and does not have the intelligence to go out there and kill it. After restart due to being knocked out early, MUCH different story. Anihilators went on the war path taking out the combined might of Zak and Yang, humiliating Marr, then taking it to outright war with Antimind. Did not finish because I got tired.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 04, 2013, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: BUncle on August 04, 2013, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: ete on August 04, 2013, 01:30:50 AM
see how quickly it rolls all the other horribly broken factions.
;D  My thoughts, exactly.

So far, they are not TOO broken but on the power level I like. But, then again, I am a power gamer. Even when I play DnD I prefer epic level.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 04, 2013, 10:17:12 PM
Just so no one will miss a related post in Council Room:

Quote from: BUncle on August 04, 2013, 06:28:56 PM
The Feminine Union and the Texas faction have enough interest bonus to get ridiculously rich in a hurry; you might want to have a look at them, too.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 05, 2013, 12:25:31 AM
Okay, in my tests it's been held back badly by lack of technology, which is hardly surprising given that it takes ten times as much research for this thing to get a tech due to 500% tech cost+Punishment Spheres. It also has.. not good enough Psi combat, and can't use fungus effectively enough. I've made some adjustments and updated the download in the OP.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 05, 2013, 12:27:10 AM
You're talking about The Annihilators?
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 05, 2013, 12:40:36 AM
Yep.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: JarlWolf on August 05, 2013, 12:42:03 AM
Hmm. Could we see some screenshots of it in action? Both AI gameplay and player wise?
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 05, 2013, 12:55:59 AM
I've pretty much only been testing them on the AAR map AI v AI (using the trick to get the playthrough to be fast), and not been bothering to save so I don't have any of that right now, but if you don't mind minor spoilers I can take some screenshots next time I do an AI test (probably tomorrow). This version of the faction is entirely not designed for human use or balance, so no tests as human playing it. I'll create a balanced version once the unbalanced monster is perfected :).
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 12:56:28 AM
You are using Punishment Spheres which halve the LABS output of each base, so they are not going to be Zak by any stretch. But, they have enormous research bonus to compensate.

In my playtests, the research was not really an issue except in a few games. I think it is luck of the draw. Factions like this are momentum factions. If they get bogged down, they suffer a bit. But, unchecked, they win.

I will download your new version and see how that goes.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 01:02:52 AM
Oh yeah... do not worry about balance for players. You got some crazy people in the SP community at AC2. You just know one or two posters and about 5 lurkers are going to put the Annihilators - UNNERFED and in INTENDED OPNESS - in the regular random rotation!

:D
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 05, 2013, 01:10:28 AM
500% research cost is a penalty, not a benefit. It means they need five times as many research points to get each tech.

In the new version it's 250%, which still means they're teching at roughly 1/5th of the speed of a normal faction without any research bonuses if you take Spheres into account. They're spectacularly bad researchers, making Mirriam look like a faction of Einstien clones, but should make up for it by stealing tech (I swapped out techshare 4 for steal tech on base capture to see how that goes, may end up with both).
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 01:21:28 AM
Quote from: ete on August 05, 2013, 01:10:28 AM
500% research cost is a penalty, not a benefit. It means they need five times as many research points to get each tech.

In the new version it's 250%, which still means they're teching at roughly 1/5th of the speed of a normal faction without any research bonuses if you take Spheres into account. They're spectacularly bad researchers, making Mirriam look like a faction of Einstien clones, but should make up for it by stealing tech (I swapped out techshare 4 for steal tech on base capture to see how that goes, may end up with both).

Steal Tech is an excellent idea.

God... that is scary. Imagine all that is holding off the hordes is that you have missile weapons while they have impact. After pounding your far base from 3 spore launchers on a ridge and and about 6 3-res impact infantry, your defenses fold and that base falls. Imagine the horror as the next troops on the horizon are now missile rovers!
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: JarlWolf on August 05, 2013, 01:32:19 AM
Thats the Valhallan's in a nutshell: The Valhallans are laughable when they are using those outdated peeny pea shooter rifles against your troops armed with impact weapons.

But then they conquer some weak pissant base or they trade with someone, they get impact and then they get in your base, rape your fields and sow your women with salt.

Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 07:42:27 AM
Ete, I just had my ass handed to me by your Annihilators. Thanks.

AI seemed to be using a Yang ICS and out producing me as Morgan. Also, ninja locust attacks. I had to seriously start counting squares Earthmicheal style just to survive. But  - one mind control on a base I had him bottlenecked on, my empire fell quick.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 05, 2013, 11:13:06 AM
That sounds more like what I'm aiming for! Especially happy to hear it's using Locusts well :) What faction and difficulty were you playing with?
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 10:05:15 PM
Quote from: ete on August 05, 2013, 11:13:06 AM
That sounds more like what I'm aiming for! Especially happy to hear it's using Locusts well :) What faction and difficulty were you playing with?

Morgan (yeah I know, I am a glutton for punishment).

Thinker difficulty. I can cope with transcend, but I like the feel of thinker difficulty better.

Kyrub's SMAX patch.

I held him off for the longest, though. Thing I did not realize was that locusts also can act as air defense and scramble to defend ground units. i thought I had him since I got air first, but the locusts ate all my needlejets.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 12:13:15 AM
Excellent, a faction which has a good chance against a human with air power :D.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Kilkakon on August 06, 2013, 02:18:40 AM
Haha I know what you mean by Trascend annoyance--I was playing my Tomorrow game on a Transcend map and drone problems are insane.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 06, 2013, 04:43:15 AM
Quote from: Kilkakon on August 06, 2013, 02:18:40 AM
Haha I know what you mean by Trascend annoyance--I was playing my Tomorrow game on a Transcend map and drone problems are insane.

Some "difficulty" settings on these old school AIs are not "fun" difficult but annoying difficult.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 18, 2013, 08:46:43 PM
Good god, ete....

Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: ete on August 18, 2013, 09:05:14 PM
ahahaahahaha :D that's my monster.

Is that your actual AAR game, or just another AI test? Because if it's your actual game.. good luck. And I'd suggest going for a ton of scout empath troops to counter psi, using impact rovers only against their rovers.


Edit: Interesting to see it building a lot of formers and going heavy on solar/road/farm.. maybe trying to make up for low energy? Also watch out for the techsteal, if it hits a base and gets your Impact tech your life will suddenly get a lot harder. And terrible luck starting right near them with them having monsoon jungle.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Green1 on August 18, 2013, 09:56:03 PM
Not the AAR, but things I like to do when I take a break from other games. I will crank out some random factions and go to practice with Morgan. I am psycosed it seems on hard tactical challenges even though I am by no means "leet".

The thing about this monster is the locusts..... they take out my crawlers then start eating everything. The bases they build are ICS packed and hard to mount a sustainable offensive against.

I have already changed my typical teching order with Morgan, but I have a feeling I need to go Secret of the Human Brain instead of Nonlinear math/industrial Automation beelines.

This thing is rough, and I am running out of time before I have to push out an AAR (for my own deadline).
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: JarlWolf on March 20, 2014, 01:54:33 AM
Same for the rest, bumping.
Title: Re: The Annihilators
Post by: Dio on November 16, 2015, 12:35:42 AM
The link to the .pcx file for this faction appears broken. When could someone on this forum repost the file so that other people can access the faction?
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