Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: Kilkakon on July 26, 2013, 02:15:44 AM

Title: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on July 26, 2013, 02:15:44 AM

Just messing around with normal SMAX yesterday:

TECH, Industrial Base
SOCIAL, -3 INDUSTRY
SOCIAL, +1 SUPPORT
SOCIAL, +2 MORALE
SOCIAL, +1 POLICE
FACILITY, Perimeter Defence
DEFENCE, +25%
AGENDA: Future Society, Eudaimonic, MORALE
AVERSION: Politics, Fundamentalist, nil

Genesis of an idea for Forces of Tomorrow faction. :)

What do you think? I tried it out and died against Cult of Planet of all people! But the AI had a go and was surviving on just 5 cities against Gaian on one side and Usurpers on the other, and actually pushing back against the Usurpers!

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Green1 on July 26, 2013, 02:52:56 AM

Interesting. I will let someone like Ete or Yitzi theorycraft it. I am also having to readjust my "balance" vision from looking over OP factions back to the realm of the sane.

Seems kind of Hive-ish at first glance but a slow builder instead of a slow economy like Yang.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on July 26, 2013, 02:58:23 AM

Haha yeah-- the mentality is that these guys are unstoppable. They are a slow wave of destruction sweeping across the land.

Extensive use of probes is helpful to keep up with enemy tech--that's what the AI was doing (stole air power, 12-res bolt, everything). Got to love how the AI has balls to be building secret projects while there's 8 impact rovers outside and they only have 3 synthmetal defenders.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: JarlWolf on July 26, 2013, 03:58:40 AM

Stats seem interesting, but what is their backstory, graphics (if any) and ideal?

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on July 26, 2013, 04:04:09 AM

They are the main antagonists of most of my games, the Forces of Tomorrow. D&D alignment would be Lawful Evil. They use revolutions to incite local people to their cause, supporting these rebels with visionaries and equipment. Once they've got a foothold, then the defensive structures spring up, large artillery cannons facing in every direction. They also have a tendency towards genetic experiments, having a few genetic monsters at their disposal. Sometimes if it's not possible to cause an area to revolt they'll infest it with genetic stuff and then move in as "peacekeepers".

They seek to create an orderly society in which pain, death and loss are a thing of the past. They've discovered clinical immorality and freely provide it to all of their citizens. Their society is actually pretty well put together, for an evil faction--people who want to go and do evil are encouraged to go and do it appropriately in the military.

Meora is their leader.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: JarlWolf on July 26, 2013, 04:29:02 AM

Hmm. Actually could be considered quite noble of a faction in its ideals: Wishing to make everyone a transhuman to live forever. Of course there is issues with that but its actually quite egalitarian, it's just their methods of revolution which are controversial.

The Crimson Comrades are similar in how they encourage and incite revolts. They'll have huge amounts of media and support for people to rise up and revolt, and its often at the cost of the people revolting: Quite few of these revolts are ruthlessly put down by the factions they do it against and most of the revolts, while they are actually supported by the Crimson Comrade's themselves in combat and get supplies and medical aid, the Revolutionaries take most of the casualties. So it could be said the Comrade's are indirectly responsible for constant bloody revolts that cost numerous amounts of lives.

But then again I am a man who believes there is no true good or evil, only what is done is done on behalf of reasoning or impulse. This faction seems fairly realistic to me.

One last question: Are they a humanoid faction or are they like your other beast factions?

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on July 26, 2013, 04:34:39 AM

Yeah that's the thing--the rather extensive lore behind them is meant to be put together in such a way that some people could identity with them and even feel right fighting for them--it's quite orderly and peaceful if you don't mind the darker origins and leadership.

They are almost humanoid. It's a realistic faction, but the leader is possessed by Meora, who would slowly genetically modify himself to look more draconic to suit what he likes to be.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on July 29, 2013, 01:36:42 AM

Played a game with these guys the other day--between Sparta and Believers, both of them wanting my guts. Was on 5 bases to start, lost 2, but held on to my three remaining with attacks on all sides. Eventually Antimind started hollowing out Sparta from the other side of her territory which allowed me to retake my cities and then crush the Believers. Currently I'm third--about 30% on the power chart, with Pirates as clear leaders and then Lal close behind them.

Probes were very important to keep up with technological advances made by the Spartans.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: JarlWolf on July 29, 2013, 03:27:26 AM

Hmm. Possible screenshots of them? Or do they have graphics yet?

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on July 29, 2013, 03:40:50 AM

Not official ones... I've made structures especially for them for my C&C mod though!

The Redoubt is mine, and the radar logo (the thing on the top right) is their faction logo.

The purple dragon on my site is their leader, I need to redraw 'im though.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Yitzi on July 29, 2013, 04:33:07 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on July 26, 2013, 02:15:44 AM

Just messing around with normal SMAX yesterday:

TECH, Industrial Base
SOCIAL, -3 INDUSTRY
SOCIAL, +1 SUPPORT
SOCIAL, +2 MORALE
SOCIAL, +1 POLICE
FACILITY, Perimeter Defence
DEFENCE, +25%
AGENDA: Future Society, Eudaimonic, MORALE
AVERSION: Politics, Fundamentalist, nil

Genesis of an idea for Forces of Tomorrow faction. :)

What do you think? I tried it out and died against Cult of Planet of all people! But the AI had a go and was surviving on just 5 cities against Gaian on one side and Usurpers on the other, and actually pushing back against the Usurpers!

Could work...their industry penalty means their army will be small at first, but they can keep going far past anyone else, especially if they run Police State or Power.  (Well, unless the other guy uses Clean troops, but that balances out their industry penalty and then some and you just have a huge morale advantage.)  Two problems, though:

1. Tech.  They'll have trouble building multiplier facilities, meaning slower tech, so they'll have to probe for it.  You might want to give them techshare.

2. Bases.  They can't build colony pods very fast, and can't go conquering early.  I'd suggest giving them a GROWTH bonus to compensate; +1 should probably be enough.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: JarlWolf on July 29, 2013, 04:47:02 AM

You folks are into old CnC too? I have the First Decade, and I'd love to play online with you folks.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on July 29, 2013, 03:08:07 PM

Quote from: Yitzi on July 29, 2013, 04:33:07 AM

Could work...their industry penalty means their army will be small at first, but they can keep going far past anyone else, especially if they run Police State or Power.  (Well, unless the other guy uses Clean troops, but that balances out their industry penalty and then some and you just have a huge morale advantage.)  Two problems, though:

1. Tech.  They'll have trouble building multiplier facilities, meaning slower tech, so they'll have to probe for it.  You might want to give them techshare.

2. Bases.  They can't build colony pods very fast, and can't go conquering early.  I'd suggest giving them a GROWTH bonus to compensate; +1 should probably be enough.

I might give them +1 Probe, or -40% probe cost, or something. :) They are pretty reliant on espionage as you say.

I am not sure on the +1 Growth... as they tend to grow very quickly in comparison to their production already. :| I mean yeah... they'll tend to grow so fast that they'll be entering drone riots before they've even built a colony pod after first defender.

Quote from: JarlWolf on July 29, 2013, 04:47:02 AM

You folks are into old CnC too? I have the First Decade, and I'd love to play online with you folks.

Aww sweet. :D I am terrible at the vanilla game as I have been making my mod for it forever. It's a total conversion for C&C, as big as LE and with no pokemon or whatever. XD It's pretty cool, although I can only do one thing at a time obviously so that slows things down a bit. I even snuck in Russia and USA as playable factions~

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on August 02, 2013, 04:25:47 AM

Thought I might as well post nicer stats~ I added a +1 probe on Yitzi's suggestion.

#BLURB
For those who want hard enough, even the universe itself cannot
stand in their way.
^
^        -- Meora,
^           "Beyond Oblivion"

#DATALINKS1
^LEADER: {Meora}
^BACKGROUND: {Selfish spirit, possessing host}
^AGENDA: {Total global domination, immortality}
^TECH: {Industrial Base}
^

#DATALINKS2
^+25% DEFENCE: {Meticulous deployment}
^+2 MORALE: {Forces eager to bring about new world order}
^+1 POLICE: {Extensive propaganda campaigns to control thoughtspace}
^+1 PROBE: {Visionaries routinely infiltrate enemy lines to gather support}
^+1 SUPPORT: {Popular amongst the people}
^-3 INDUSTRY: {Defensive installations are expensive}
^Redoubts: {Free PERIMETER DEFENSE at each base}
^{May not use Fundamentalist politics.}

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: JarlWolf on August 02, 2013, 04:36:21 AM

Hrm. I am liking the feel of these guys, but I think they need another drawback, because their dream of utopia isn't cheap either: I would penalize them for -1 Growth as well.

The reasoning: If people become transhuman, more resources are spent on keeping people alive and your population won't die as fast, but if you grow too much you are seriously stressing your own resources. Because less people dying means more people to support, more people to support means less resources, and less resources leads to famine and deficiencies which leads to less growth.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on August 02, 2013, 04:38:18 AM

I suppose I can factor in the fact that the immortality drug makes people infertile. :) They do recruit new people very quickly of course, which most cancels it out, but sure that can be a cool thing. :D

Actually that may not work due to the 8 stat limit...

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: JarlWolf on August 02, 2013, 05:38:20 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on August 02, 2013, 04:38:18 AM

I suppose I can factor in the fact that the immortality drug makes people infertile. :) They do recruit new people very quickly of course, which most cancels it out, but sure that can be a cool thing. :D

Actually that may not work due to the 8 stat limit...

Its not so much the infertility that is the problem Kilk, or even recruiting people, its the fact that you have MORE people to support because you are refusing to let people die. If you have an overabundance of people who are using resources, eating food drinking water, you'll run out quicker. And thus eventually your system is going to overstress.


Think of it this way: If everyone my age was to live forever, eating, drinking and consuming resources, while you also have to eat, drink and consume resources, I don't die and I keep consuming resources. You have children, they consume resources and you don't die either. Your children have children and so on, and they don't die. You have over 5 generations of people still alive and consuming resources, and the number of people is only increasing. The amount of resources it'd take to supply that would be tremendous.


Maybe -1 growth isn't the issue, rather, maybe less nutrients per square or something.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on August 02, 2013, 05:44:40 AM

Well yeah I think a -1 Growth works well. :) Agreement! I don't think I can make squares give less nutrients. :(

Tomorrow does get crazy with expansion once they overpopulate a planet, reaching across the galaxy. :O

I was able to get it in by making the morale modifer a bonus rather than a social engineering stat.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: ete on August 02, 2013, 10:09:47 AM

hm, had to tell without playtesting how factions with more than +/-3 on important social engineering stats will work, but my gut instinct is that this looks fairly balanced. It does seem a bit bloated though, especially with the added modifiers. Too many things going on at once, unlike official factions which are on the whole pretty clean and directed. For example, +25% def and free Perimeter Defenses seem somewhat redundant.

Never going to be an amazing builder with -3 Industry, but Morale and Support bonus (plus defensive stuff) should allow it to easily hold its own against momentum factions and give it a strong enough army to conquer weaker factions early. I'd maybe favor techshare (4-5) over Probe since Probe bonuses only help a little for tech stealing, it mostly gives an advantage to subversion and subversion resistance.

Edit: Idea: How about replacing the two defensive bonuses with free Tachyon Field? This means that they can still add in PDs for a massive defensive advantage, and reduces bonus bloat by turning two into one. Plus it gives a strong unique feel to the faction, unlike PDs which Yang has, and a specific reason to use them over other factions.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on August 03, 2013, 04:02:49 AM

My concern with free Tachyon fields is remembering my recent game against Sparta--I literally couldn't keep a facility alive for more than 2 turns, as they kept blowing them up with Probe Teams. The only thing keeping me alive was the defence bonus. I suppose I could drop the free walls and just give them +50% if that works better.

I find tech share a little cheap myself... I'd favour active espionage over just getting things for free.

I can confirm that -4 INDUSTRY and lower is the same as -3.

But thanks for your comments. :) I agree that yes there are a few bonuses going on. They are a very involved faction in my games and stories.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: ete on August 03, 2013, 11:02:46 AM

huh, I've not had an AI take out a facility with a probe team in months, during which I've played at least 10 games on Trancsend to the end. Did you try creating the infantry probe team unit (normal one is based on speeder) which makes a significantly cheaper defensive probe unit? I've found that leaving a few of those in vulnerable bases basically entirely shuts down AI probing. +50% defense everywhere is quite a huge deal, and would potentially make them more offensive since rather than needing to be behind city walls to get a big bonus, they'd have it out in the field.

Fair about techshare, and right about Industry.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on August 05, 2013, 01:45:56 AM

From memory I tried a probe team infantry in the workshop and it was the same price! I did try defensive probe teams, but it didn't work as the first one would win by default due to defence bonus, then a second probe team would take him out and then enter the city. :( And they take so long to build, like 6 turns.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 05:16:03 AM

I am gearing up in a bit to take a few factions through the meatgrinder. No player, just AIs. Have you gotten graphics yet?

When you are ready, I may want some cannon fodder for some of these monster AIs. Do not worry about adjusting up. Just balance as you would normally for a playable faction. Post it, and I will add it to my rogue's gallery.

Your AI will be going up against:

Sigma's Procyon (Growth/bulder centered aquatic Alien faction)
Ete/BU's Annihilators (Momentum OP Alien faction)
Green1/Jarlwolf's Exterminatus (Momentum/ heavy industry alien faction)
Network Node's Antimind (Full Native Power Alien)

As a control or if I do not have enough for 7, I may put in Yang and some other factions from the forums. 

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats
Post by: Kilkakon on August 05, 2013, 05:34:30 AM

They aren't final graphics, but I have some temporary ones which work quite well for the moment if you like. :) I'll post the thing here:

http://kilkakon.com/kocb/tomorrow.zip (http://kilkakon.com/kocb/tomorrow.zip) (nudity)

I haven't done the real logos yet (they are still Cyndatech), but the leader's the real guy. :) The cities are currently from a NN faction. If there was interest I'd finish the graphics off and make a SFW version as well.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 07:38:06 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on August 05, 2013, 05:34:30 AM

They aren't final graphics, but I have some temporary ones which work quite well for the moment if you like. :) I'll post the thing here:

http://kilkakon.com/kocb/tomorrow.zip (http://kilkakon.com/kocb/tomorrow.zip) (nudity)

I haven't done the real logos yet (they are still Cyndatech), but the leader's the real guy. :) The cities are currently from a NN faction. If there was interest I'd finish the graphics off and make a SFW version as well.

It is just an AI test, not a full AAR. As long as it looks different than everyone else, that should be fine.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 05, 2013, 07:40:21 AM

Sweet. :D Let me know how they go. :O They are meant to be balanced against vanilla so they might get eaten, we'll see. :)

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Green1 on August 05, 2013, 07:47:55 AM

Quote from: Kilkakon on August 05, 2013, 07:40:21 AM

Sweet. :D Let me know how they go. :O They are meant to be balanced against vanilla so they might get eaten, we'll see. :)

Some of the vanilla ones still do okay. Yang is one example. He is like a brick wall even for OP monsters and he expands good.

I threw the Comrades in for two of them. First one, they got decimated by Exterminatus mid game after fighting them forever. Second one, they did okay. Without a balanced map, it is luck of the draw.

On a positive note, did you know if you are the only human faction, you automatically get governor with +1 energy per base? Every little bit helps.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 05, 2013, 07:50:25 AM

I didn't! That's cool, haha.

"We might be the last but we get free commerce from trading with ourselves!"

This faction is very much the brick wall, yes. :P

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 12, 2013, 02:26:50 AM

I made a small start on the proper bases for these guys yesterday.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 12, 2013, 02:33:38 AM

Post a little .jpg...

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 12, 2013, 02:36:42 AM

Very well!

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: JarlWolf on August 12, 2013, 02:41:03 AM

Man, those red alert buildings look really kick ass as bases...

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 12, 2013, 02:43:57 AM

Oooh.  I like!  It needs - something still -maybe a dash of color?- but that's a beautiful start.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 12, 2013, 02:45:38 AM

Quote from: JarlWolf on August 12, 2013, 02:41:03 AM

Man, those red alert buildings look really kick ass as bases...

Haha thank you! That's the Propaganda Centre, used by the Forces of Tomorrow in my mod to generate resources instead of a Tiberium Refinery. I made a buildup animation for it from scratch... took like 10 hours haha. I also made the little mini ones. Those other buildings are the Redoubts, the defensive structure + barracks for the faction.

(I'll let you know when I release the mod. :) It'll be the next thing after LE.)


The faction's colours are grey, primarily, in C&C, although they have a lot more red in them once they hit space era.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 12, 2013, 02:52:11 AM

Hmm.  It's very good-looking like that; I just still think a little color would really give it 'pop'.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 12, 2013, 03:01:19 AM

I'll have to think about it. :) What you are seeing is literally how they look ingame:

And have some random other screenshots as well, why not. :D

(http://kilkakon.com/kocb/question.png)
(http://kilkakon.com/kocb/russia.png)
(http://kilkakon.com/kocb/terroristbase.png)
(http://kilkakon.com/kocb/urban.png)

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: JarlWolf on August 12, 2013, 03:59:50 AM

Hrmm... you are really adept at modding these sorts of things... I wonder, how many factions are allowed in the old CnC games like Tiberium Dawn and Red Alert 2? Last I checked only two real camps existed for each game.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 12, 2013, 04:05:08 AM

Well thank you. :) God is my helper haha :D

C&C1: 2 factions, I expanded to four playable ones. (Company of Answers, Forces of Tomorrow, USA, Russia)
RA2: 2 factions, I expanded to nine. Was a while ago now.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: JarlWolf on August 12, 2013, 04:27:06 AM

Hrm. I'll have to take a look at those then, if that's possible.

Title: Re: Thoughts on this faction's stats (Tomorrow)
Post by: Kilkakon on August 12, 2013, 04:30:50 AM

Working on the Red Alert 2 one was an experience. It was recieved just like Lost Eden really, it was just a normal mod too, yet everybody in the RA2 community ignored it completely. But after working on it for a few years I learnt the important lesson that graphics are vital to a good gameplay experience. Since then I've picked up all my art skills.

I'd be happy to show you the C&C one when it's done. :) I hope it will be soon.